The Day ESO Dies

smokes

Vizier wrote: »

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

hours of grinding should be equal to hours of whining.

i.e. getting you nowhere.

Wakkoo

I think this is one of the best threads I've read for a long, long time from a very passionate player who really wishes the game well, but just wont let bad design choices slip through.

I hope ZOS listens to the feedback

Rhakon

Domander wrote: »

I really like the vet system, I still don't understand the need to get rid of it.

I also really like the champion system, constant progression, it's nice that everything I do improves my characters. Yes, some will pull ahead and have an advantage. This is an mmorpg, I would not want it any other way, those of you criticizing might want to consider the alternative of being stuck with nothing to improve upon.

The vertical progression of the CS is destroying the game slowly because of the separation and unbalance in the playerbase in PvE and PVP.
The difficulty of Content is impossible to to adjust to make it challenging and fun for all.

Improvement is a good thing but not this way.

Sandmanninja

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Just need seasons and tiers... like every other game

I don't know about seasons and tiers.
But a well-known MMO puts a weekly cap on how many "CPs" players can earn.

Not a bad idea. No nerfing of CPs or their value. The ONLY players affected would be grinders getting 100 CPs a week.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

BugCollector wrote: »

I quote the most important part of Deltia's plea: My good friend Parfax had an excellent suggestion, simply have seasons for Champion Points. Meaning, every three months or so, you could gain 100 CP. Once you reach that number, you have to wait for the reset.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

^ This.

Must surely be the easiest and quickest solution to implement.

Its also extremely straight forward so will be understood by the playerbase.

Which is probably why it will never happen.

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Ultimately grinding and 'progression' are poor substitutes for good gameplay.

If you design a FUN game... and have a story fleshed out... you don't need to redesign the end game three times in a year.

So true.

Make it fun, make it engaging, and people will play and play and play.

LOTRO used to be like that, then they seriously nerfed content difficulty, within 6 months over half of my Kin were off playing other games. It was too easy to be fun or engaging.


All The Best

Rune_Relic

Domander wrote: »

I really like the vet system, I still don't understand the need to get rid of it.

I also really like the champion system, constant progression, it's nice that everything I do improves my characters. Yes, some will pull ahead and have an advantage. This is an mmorpg, I would not want it any other way, those of you criticizing might want to consider the alternative of being stuck with nothing to improve upon.

No one said they don't want constant progression.
Everyone loves and wants endless progression and character development.
The complaint is that POWER is gated behind grinding.
Which means there is no level playing field in PVP or trials or any other competition among players.
Which means content is far easier for grinders than it is for non grinders.
Which means there is a massive disparity gap created by the haves and have nots of the CP world before we even consider class imbalance.
Which makes balancing content difficulty impossible.
Which makes balancing classes impossible.
This has to stop.
Simple as that.

So either fix the CS Vet systems or remove the competition between players by dumping pvp and leaderboards.
You can not have FAIR competition without an EVEN playing field.
Its like having a boxing match and giving one guy horse shoes in his gloves

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

Nothing you do in front of a computer screen counts as training hard

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Which means there is no level playing field in PVP or trials or any other competition among players.

MMORPGs are not, have never been, and will never be, the correct platform for "level playing field" PvP.

MMORPG companies that expend any effort towards that goal achieve only three things:

1) They Fail.
2) They anger the majority players, PvE players, because their game gets ruined in the cause of a balance that can never be attained.
3) They anger the PvPers for trying but failing, and invariably making things worse.

And PvPers who play MMORPGs and claim to want that level playing field are deluding themselves and us, because everyone who has ever played a) MMORPGs and b) real level-playing-field PvP, knows for a fact that the two simply can not be shoehorned together.

All The Best

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Domander wrote: »

I really like the vet system, I still don't understand the need to get rid of it.

I also really like the champion system, constant progression, it's nice that everything I do improves my characters. Yes, some will pull ahead and have an advantage. This is an mmorpg, I would not want it any other way, those of you criticizing might want to consider the alternative of being stuck with nothing to improve upon.

Welp, if resources that are obviously currently tied up trying to balance an unbalancable system.... were instead devoted to developing entirely new skill lines .... and the company focused on that and tellig a good engaging story.... there would be ACTUAL NEW EXPERIENCES TO BE HAD.... instead of doing the same damned thing for thousands of hours

That is a MASSIVE improvement over any kind of progression.... which is just nerd code for grinding anyway.

Give me STORY. NEW PLACES. And NEW SKILL LINES.

I could give a rats ass about running the same dungeon 300 times.

Cherryblossom

Vizier wrote: »

Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

Quite simply there is a large difference between 3% and 10%. When you are in catch up mode you also do not have points in every passive, so in some cases they have 10% you have 0% as you have choosen the couple of passives you're working on to start with.
You are also forgeting about new players, the game needs them. But really whats the point of them PVP in Non-Vet, they will be easy target for those with 300+ CP. If you think 22% more Crit, 10% more damage whilst taking 10% less damage and have resources pool 10% bigger with 10% more regen is not a huge advantage you need your head reading.
CP is quite simply poorly implemented, ZOS needs to put some serious thought into how they address so many inbalances caused by the system.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Which means there is no level playing field in PVP or trials or any other competition among players.

MMORPGs are not, have never been, and will never be, the correct platform for "level playing field" PvP.

MMORPG companies that expend any effort towards that goal achieve only three things:

1) They Fail.
2) They anger the majority players, PvE players, because their game gets ruined in the cause of a balance that can never be attained.
3) They anger the PvPers for trying but failing, and invariably making things worse.

And PvPers who play MMORPGs and claim to want that level playing field are deluding themselves and us, because everyone who has ever played a) MMORPGs and b) real level-playing-field PvP, knows for a fact that the two simply can not be shoehorned together.

All The Best

Guild Wars 2 is the ultimate example of a level playing field MMO.... they didnt have to redesign their end game 3 times.

Destiny is a crap ton of fun... precisely because you can come in and PVP as a fresh lowbie.

As a matter of fact.... one of the main reasons FPS has more profitability, larger player base, and easier time being converted to esports.... because of level playing field on PVP

This also reflects reality.... a bullet does not have to be level 2,000 and fired from expert sniper to kill you

Morvul

"Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

"Suffice to say, the first 300-400 points are important. The next couple of hundred will continue to gain moderately for many builds. Beyond that, you see a significant nosedive in how much they amplify your actual performance

this is the only part of your post I disagree with, but in my optinion you can roughly double that numbers. Most builds have 2 stars of each colour that are "central" to their build. And due to the way individual stars "diminishing return curves" are shaped: if it's worth it to invest 30 points, it's also worth it to invest 100 points - for pretty much the same benefit per point as the 30th has given. Hence: most builds will see a first dip in power growth once they go past 100 CP, and the next dip in power growth once they go past 600 CPS.
For my magicka sorcerer, I saw massive gains for earning the first 100 points. I will continue to benefit very, very strongly from up to ~600 CP. And there are very significant (though admittetedly lesser) benefits for investing up to 1500 CPs. Beyond that point, the remainder of the 3600 CP is peanuts as far as my sorc's performance is concerned

Blud

I agree with OP.

ZOS don't care about subs as long as people are buying XP scrolls and frost mounts for $30 a pop.

Aiden_Dark

Rhakon wrote: »

Again and for remember, in my opinion the best idea so far.

Idea from @Rune_Relic
They don't need to remove it and replace it with something else with 6 months of work.
All they need to do is add a CHAMPION BAR with 3 slots.
1 Warrior passive can be loaded.
1 Thief passive can be loaded.
1 Mage passive can be loaded.

Now it doesn't matter how many CP you have as you can only use 3 passive out of the 36.

People can grind away to their hearts content.
Someone with 300 CP will be just as powerful as anyone with 3600 CP..except they wont have 36 passive skills to choose from.

The stam/mag/health from each CP has to be nerfed though.

No power creep.
No power gap.
No gated content.
Endless progression
No gated endgame
Forced Build diversity.

That actually sounds pretty good

Pendrillion

I read through some of the post... My humble opinion is: It is not the Champion System. It's as others very proficiently stated the progression. Also the lack of content. if you hadn't to grind for CPs and can earn them by playing through zones, that are adjusted to the amount of CPs available, we wouldn't have to have this discussion. Seeing 3600 CPs, I hope that reflects on what we will experience in lieu of content the next few years.

There are many good ideas, to have a progressive earning system in place. I concur.

On the other hand. Wasn't that what so many people where QQing about? Being in an ES game and not turning out to be the master of the universe at some point? Where do you draw the line?

I guess I reached Champion Rank 75 on my VR 13. How far behind am I? <--- Average player.

SantieClaws

It just feels sometimes like they never had a long term development plan from the start.

The three alliance thing was always going to cause problems story wise when adding new PvE zones. I actually think the alliance thing was just bad from the start. There could have been a better way of implementing PvP. One world with a walloping great civil war maybe then let players choose their PvP faction separately from what goes on in the PvE zones.

Then when vet ranks came in there doesn't seem to have been any thought as how to develop them going forwards when new zones were added. Just adding new ones without enough content to go with it has led to a 'grind or forget about end game' sort of culture.

Then when they decided to remove vet zones there doesn't seem to have been much thought about how to develop/live with the champ system when new content was introduced.

Crafts, potions, recipes and materials haven't really kept pace with character level either.

An MMO survives though having new content and continuous character development. That needs to be considered right from the start. It's not the same as making a single player game and then just adding chunks here and there.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

It just feels sometimes like they never had a long term development plan from the start.

The three alliance thing was always going to cause problems story wise when adding new PvE zones. I actually think the alliance thing was just bad from the start. There could have been a better way of implementing PvP. One world with a walloping great civil war maybe then let players choose their PvP faction separately from what goes on in the PvE zones.

If I was setting out to do the Three Alliance things I would have done it entirely different.

I'd have all players level through the same zone in the same sequence: makes for easier additions to vertical progression.

But within each zone there would be "three factions" with competing and antagonistic goals. Goals that can be affected by THE CHOICES players make as they quest.

So as a Nord I should be with the EP, but making choices in quests could mean I have, knowingly or unknowingly, assisted one of the other factions.

So in Davons Watch the EP faction would be quite open in its actions, and the AD and DC would have to be more low-key and work behind the scenes. But in a quest it should be possible for any player of any faction to hinder or help all three factions.

Maybe I take a liking to an NPC that, without me knowing it, is working for the AD, and in helping her I am inadvertently assisting the AD and hindering the EP.

Then at "level cap" all that is needed to add new content is a new tri-faction story line in a single new zone.

Shift the focus from "world design" to quest development - giving the player real, choice laden, content.

Have a system that tracks those outcomes and turns the cumulative effects of all player choices in to things that affect Cyrodil.

Minor buffs, maybe better in-zone resources for one faction etc. But have the PvP campaigns reset periodically so that we don't get a feedback loop of, for example, end-game PvP centered players running alts through non-PvP content to skew the Cyrodil situation in their factions favour.

All The Best

Rune_Relic

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Which means there is no level playing field in PVP or trials or any other competition among players.

MMORPGs are not, have never been, and will never be, the correct platform for "level playing field" PvP.

MMORPG companies that expend any effort towards that goal achieve only three things:

1) They Fail.
2) They anger the majority players, PvE players, because their game gets ruined in the cause of a balance that can never be attained.
3) They anger the PvPers for trying but failing, and invariably making things worse.

And PvPers who play MMORPGs and claim to want that level playing field are deluding themselves and us, because everyone who has ever played a) MMORPGs and b) real level-playing-field PvP, knows for a fact that the two simply can not be shoehorned together.

All The Best

And not one of them could be bothered to create balance automatically by formula.
All of them attempt manual tuning.....forever...and fail forever for exactly that reason.
Trial and error design instead of rules that make imbalance impossible.

Using a history of failure and incompetence as evidence of the norm does not improve gaming nor fix the issues.

Using failure as a shield for bad game design really isn't acceptable is it ?

LrdRahvin

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is a great thread with a lot of opinions; please don't start making personal attacks, and keep it on topic and constructive. Thanks, guys.

Can we make attacks if they aren't personal?

Adam_Chattaway

question, how do i unsub from getting notification from a thread?

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

question, how do i unsub from getting notification from a thread?

Find the quest in the FOrum listing, and uncheck the yellow star to the right of the thread title.

All The Best

Adam_Chattaway

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

question, how do i unsub from getting notification from a thread?

Find the quest in the FOrum listing, and uncheck the yellow star to the right of the thread title.

All The Best

I dont have one, but still keep getting the noti

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

question, how do i unsub from getting notification from a thread?

Find the quest in the FOrum listing, and uncheck the yellow star to the right of the thread title.

All The Best

I dont have one, but still keep getting the noti

OK ^ Up there by the thread title is a Star.

If it is yellow you are subbed to this thread, clicking on it will turn it white and unsub you.

If you are not seeing the Star it may be an issue with how you are viewing the forums - tablet, etc.

All The Best

Faulgor

Sandmanninja wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Just need seasons and tiers... like every other game

I don't know about seasons and tiers.
But a well-known MMO puts a weekly cap on how many "CPs" players can earn.

Not a bad idea. No nerfing of CPs or their value. The ONLY players affected would be grinders getting 100 CPs a week.

No. No time caps.

This artificial content gating is just terrible for the players. Same thing with dailies.
What happens is that you log in, do your allowed amount of content, say to yourself "well, that's all the game will let me do, see you tomorrow/next week" and log out again. As a developer, you should have people want to play your game as much and often as possible, allowing them to choose the content they want to play whenever and how much they want to. Why this is so often confused with grinding I don't quite understand.

What should be capped or restricted is the effectiveness of players' progress in a competitive environment. ESO gives the best example for this itself with the limited skill bar: You can get as many skill points as you want, with no time-restriction, but no matter what, you can only equip 5 skills at a time. This concept is infinitely better than an unlimited skill bar and only being able to earn 1 skill point per day, both in the long and the short term! And this is the concept ZOS should also adapt for the champion system, with a limited number of active champion passives, as has been suggested numerous times here already.

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

Nothing you do in front of a computer screen counts as training hard

lol. I'll be sure to remember when I watch EVO this weekend.

Rune_Relic

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

It just feels sometimes like they never had a long term development plan from the start.

The three alliance thing was always going to cause problems story wise when adding new PvE zones. I actually think the alliance thing was just bad from the start. There could have been a better way of implementing PvP. One world with a walloping great civil war maybe then let players choose their PvP faction separately from what goes on in the PvE zones.

Then when vet ranks came in there doesn't seem to have been any thought as how to develop them going forwards when new zones were added. Just adding new ones without enough content to go with it has led to a 'grind or forget about end game' sort of culture.

Then when they decided to remove vet zones there doesn't seem to have been much thought about how to develop/live with the champ system when new content was introduced.

Crafts, potions, recipes and materials haven't really kept pace with character level either.

An MMO survives though having new content and continuous character development. That needs to be considered right from the start. It's not the same as making a single player game and then just adding chunks here and there.

Did make me think about ZOS objective for players.

With Vet system I imagine the idea was for you to not only experience all factions...but also to accept there wasn't really a who was right and who was wrong. All of them had good and bad agendas.
SO....when you hit Cyrodiil...why are you forced into a specific faction if they are all as bad or good as each other ?
Was Cadwells point not to remove the concept of allegiance in Meridias eyes ?

Without allegiance people wouldn't really care what faction they joined.
If they don't care what faction they joined....PVP could have put all entries on a round robin system and had 100% population balance for all factions !
Ironic isn't it ? lmao.
That way guild mates could find themselves fighting each other

Now... is guild mates fighting each other a bad thing ?
Truth be told all those guild members will know each others tactics, bugs and exploits.....strengths an weaknesses as they play with them day in and day out.
There wouldn't be any shenanigans going on as there would be guild disharmony shall we say.
So would PVP be more balanced if all of alacrity or some other guild were split among all faction and fighting each other ?

Now we have skill balance and population balance across all 3 factions.
Make all 50+ areas cross faction and quest/grouping issues are also helped with a bigger crop to pick from.


Instead what we got is PVP aimed at faction loyalty (and 1-50 building that faction loyalty) and population imbalance and whole guilds server jumping to wipe out enemy guild.

There is no consistency. All you do is keep saying to yourself..'this makes no sense'. And the more that happens the less time you spend enjoying the game and the more time you spending analysing it. Rather than being drawn into the game you are thrown out of it.

With the vet ranks removed...and silver/gold an optional XP/Shard source....CP should be the only thing separating the players. If that player separation is regulated properly, not only do we get class balance working properly, we also get content difficulty balance by default.

Olivierko

Earning max X amount of CP's on a time basis would just sweep the problem into the future.

Just change the scaling to be more punishing, you still get the passives from gaining points and the flat bonus to each node should barely give anything.

Same goes for the bonus to the health, stamina and magicka pools, the values are currently constant in their increase.

Attorneyatlawl

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

Nothing you do in front of a computer screen counts as training hard

I guess Bill Gates didn't learn much to train to be capable of creating Windows then, did he? Or Larry Page and Sergey Brin as co-founders for another later, extremely important invention to our everyday lives, called Google, then, eh?

Rhetorical question, and food for thought...

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

Nothing you do in front of a computer screen counts as training hard

I guess Bill Gates didn't learn much to train to be capable of creating Windows then, did he? Or Larry Page and Sergey Brin as co-founders for another later, extremely important invention to our everyday lives, called Google, then, eh?

Rhetorical question, and food for thought...

Lemme know how playing something other people created equates to inventing new technologies

Attorneyatlawl

Olivierko wrote: »

Earning max X amount of CP's on a time basis would just sweep the problem into the future.

Just change the scaling to be more punishing, you still get the passives from gaining points and the flat bonus to each node should barely give anything.

Same goes for the bonus to the health, stamina and magicka pools, the values are currently constant in their increase.

They are already fairly punishing due to inherent relative diminishment. Gaining 10 magicka when you have 100? That's 10%. Gaining 10 magicka once you have 150? That's 6.6%. Gaining 10 magicka once you have 500? 2%. The same applies to the passives themselves, and there is an artificial negative curve factor added in for those to boot. The system caps at 3600.

Attorneyatlawl

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

Nothing you do in front of a computer screen counts as training hard

I guess Bill Gates didn't learn much to train to be capable of creating Windows then, did he? Or Larry Page and Sergey Brin as co-founders for another later, extremely important invention to our everyday lives, called Google, then, eh?

Rhetorical question, and food for thought...

Lemme know how playing something other people created equates to inventing new technologies

You may as well have said, "Nothing you do on a football field counts as training hard."

Head over to ESPN's forums and let me know how it goes .