The Day ESO Dies

Armitas

BugCollector wrote: »

I quote the most important part of Deltia's plea: My good friend Parfax had an excellent suggestion, simply have seasons for Champion Points. Meaning, every three months or so, you could gain 100 CP. Once you reach that number, you have to wait for the reset.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Many of us suggested that on the developer discussion forum thread. They know about it, and that it could still make them money. They wanted to go with the option that gave the most money. My mind keeps recalling an official statement from them back in beta regarding f2p and how it detracts from good design decisions. I'll have to try and look that up.

technohic

As far as the Champion points debate on progression vs endless gap/grind; why not just make a champion point free PvP Campaign and leader board? Just let players opt in or out of whichever they want to. Still can earn progress but if you really dislike the system, you do not have to participate.

As it is now; you can opt out. But it is called "quitting the game" and that is not healthy in the long run. Who knows? Maybe one day players that opt out eventually decide that they are not so far behind as they though and opt in by participating in the champion system enabled PvP and PvE.

Pallmor

I figured out a long time ago that ZOS likely doesn't have a real plan. What they call their "plan" is more like a constantly changing mess built of confusion and wishful thinking. Depending on the day of the week, the plan may include several goals that contradict one other (like getting rid of vet ranks and adding vet ranks), several goals that are impossible to actually implement, several outdated goals that have been superseded by earlier changes to the "plan," and several goals that are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of either their players or the game itself.

I think there has been a lot more upheaval at ZOS than we know about (we might get the full story someday). The layoffs last September, the exit of Paul Sage, etc. have probably caused a lot more confusion than they're letting on. And some of the effects of that confusion are showing.

Olivierko

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

They are already fairly punishing due to inherent relative diminishment. Gaining 10 magicka when you have 100? That's 10%. Gaining 10 magicka once you have 150? That's 6.6%. Gaining 10 magicka once you have 500? 2%. The same applies to the passives themselves, and there is an artificial negative curve factor added in for those to boot. The system caps at 3600.

Yet each point in each constellation grants a static number to it's pool, I think a point into the red section will give you 11 health or similar. This number has to be scaled as well, unless it already is and I just haven't noticed it.

I'm fully aware of the fact that there are diminished returns to each node dependent on how many current points that there are spent, I'm just stating my opinion on the matter. It has to be a smaller gap between 60 - 100 points per node.

Rune_Relic

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

Nothing you do in front of a computer screen counts as training hard

I guess Bill Gates didn't learn much to train to be capable of creating Windows then, did he? Or Larry Page and Sergey Brin as co-founders for another later, extremely important invention to our everyday lives, called Google, then, eh?

Rhetorical question, and food for thought...

Bill gates got where he is buying up every one elses work and buying out the competition and dictating standards they had a head start on

ch.ris317b14_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

Nothing you do in front of a computer screen counts as training hard

I guess Bill Gates didn't learn much to train to be capable of creating Windows then, did he? Or Larry Page and Sergey Brin as co-founders for another later, extremely important invention to our everyday lives, called Google, then, eh?

Rhetorical question, and food for thought...

Lemme know how playing something other people created equates to inventing new technologies

You may as well have said, "Nothing you do on a football field counts as training hard."

Head over to ESPN's forums and let me know how it goes .

There is a distinct difference in actually working out, and learning how to compete physically... and pressing 8 buttons on a keyboard... where it all comes down to math

ch.ris317b14_ESO

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

Nothing you do in front of a computer screen counts as training hard

I guess Bill Gates didn't learn much to train to be capable of creating Windows then, did he? Or Larry Page and Sergey Brin as co-founders for another later, extremely important invention to our everyday lives, called Google, then, eh?

Rhetorical question, and food for thought...

Lemme know how playing something other people created equates to inventing new technologies

You may as well have said, "Nothing you do on a football field counts as training hard."

Head over to ESPN's forums and let me know how it goes .

There is a distinct difference in actually working out, and learning how to compete physically... and pressing 8 buttons on a keyboard... where it all comes down to math

Math you dont even have to calculate yourself

ch.ris317b14_ESO

There is a reason E-sport is formed mostly around FPS and MOBA games.... where everybody starts the match on equal terms and its strategery and tactics that win the day.

Cherryblossom

I have put this in another thread as well, as I think it's important to at least give idea's to improve the current system.

My thoughts on the matter are a simplified catchup system.

Base it on the first 3 months since CS launch Max 100 CP, next 3 months Max 100 CP (so after 6 month max is 200 CP (for those bad at maths)) and carry this on. But when we reach the second 3 months, those that have not yet got 100 CP they now gain 2 CP instead of 1 until they reach 100 then they just get enlightenment.
If you are a new player joining after 9 months of CS and the new limit is 300 CP, for the first 100 point you gain at the rate of 3CP then at up to 200 you gain at 2 CP

Rosveen

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

Nothing you do in front of a computer screen counts as training hard

I guess Bill Gates didn't learn much to train to be capable of creating Windows then, did he? Or Larry Page and Sergey Brin as co-founders for another later, extremely important invention to our everyday lives, called Google, then, eh?

Rhetorical question, and food for thought...

Lemme know how playing something other people created equates to inventing new technologies

You may as well have said, "Nothing you do on a football field counts as training hard."

Head over to ESPN's forums and let me know how it goes .

There is a distinct difference in actually working out, and learning how to compete physically... and pressing 8 buttons on a keyboard... where it all comes down to math

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about chess?

Xendyn

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Adam_Chattaway wrote: »

question, how do i unsub from getting notification from a thread?

Find the quest in the FOrum listing, and uncheck the yellow star to the right of the thread title.

All The Best

I dont have one, but still keep getting the noti

Look up at the top by your name. Click the Gear icon and select Edit my Profile. On the left there is a category for Notification Preferences. Go there and uncheck the appropriate box.

Armitas

Found it. From Matt Firor responding to a question about the payment model that ESO will take. (emphasis added)

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

Here we are 1 box purchase away from a full a F2P game. We can see these sacrifices play out with the interplay between the champion system, the gap, and the Crown store.

With no reason to pay a sub in this game the source of funds will slow trickle more and more into the crown store, as more and more sacrifices are made.

Talemire

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153310/champion-system-introduction-guide#latest

I just though I would point out the last paragraph of Deltia's post here while he was making the CS guide. I thought it was a second-to-none system, man. What happened there? Praising it left and right now bashing it as a whole?

Robotmafia

well im sure a catch up system will come...

everyone whos buying XP pots from the store is probably slowing this down because they are makin money and u don't *** with somthin that's makin money

Tonnopesce

Robotmafia wrote: »

well im sure a catch up system will come...

everyone whos buying XP pots from the store is probably slowing this down because they are makin money and u don't *** with somthin that's makin money

+1 epic win!

RazzPitazz

Talemire wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153310/champion-system-introduction-guide#latest

I just though I would point out the last paragraph of Deltia's post here while he was making the CS guide. I thought it was a second-to-none system, man. What happened there? Praising it left and right now bashing it as a whole?

Not exactly fair to put the man on trial for an initial opinion.

SantieClaws

I swear here on Azura's toga that I personally will never ever buy an xp pot from the store. So against the idea and so against how it may change the course of game development (i.e. making it harder to level so you get desperate and buy the pots).

I intend eventually to make a few and maybe use them when I get desperate but I will never ever stoop to buying an xp pot.

That promise also includes the following items:

A helmet that gives you an xp boost
The xp boosting magic guar of xpness
Sheogorath's magic boots of extra xp
Banana and xp pie
Vivec's old bone milk xp liqueur

Armitas

Robotmafia wrote: »

well im sure a catch up system will come...

everyone whos buying XP pots from the store is probably slowing this down because they are makin money and u don't __ with somthin that's makin money

This is exactly what I see happening. They let this play out and make as much money on it as they can allowing Group X to get far ahead of Group Y, then when Group Y is ripe for the harvest, they put a seasonal item on the store that allows Group Y to approach Group X. Group X won't like that and will try to forge harder ahead of Group Y. Thus creating a continual cat and mouse game, perpetual dissatisfaction, supported by your dollars.

Yeah it's in their best interest to let this brew to a boil before they "fix" it. They set the fire for a reason, and I think we all know whats cooking.

ElricFrancis

I don't understand an optional leveling as another faction to aid them in their troubles. We just couldn't help them on quests involving our own alliance is all.

what I want is to actually interact with people of the other alliances when I run things for their alliance.

synnerman

Couldn't agree more with Deltia re champion points. I was playing this game from early access up until a few months ago when I got sick of the performance in Cyrodiil ( I and most of my guild). Recently I have been keeping up with events and some of my guild have been doing the same and can see what may be coming with the imperial city patch and hopefully some performance improvements along with much needed balance issues.

Those issues I may be able to live with and return along with some of my buddies (logged in a few times recently) HOWEVER the one thing that will stop us returning and actually re-subbing is if there is no catch up system in place. I currently have 133 champion points and I ONLY PvP as do most of my guildies and if we are at a constant and frankly huge disadvantage in pvp due to having no way of catching up champion points then I will simply uninstall this game and NEVER return.

So ZoS the ball is in your court If you want to have your glory when the imperial city hits by bringing back players that have left or tried out other games then the catch up system needs to be in place as I know for a fact I will not spend a single penny until that happens and if I start to invest my time in another game after your update then that will be it for me and most the guys who were in Renegades EU.

TheBull

synnerman wrote: »

Couldn't agree more with Deltia re champion points. I was playing this game from early access up until a few months ago when I got sick of the performance in Cyrodiil ( I and most of my guild). Recently I have been keeping up with events and some of my guild have been doing the same and can see what may be coming with the imperial city patch and hopefully some performance improvements along with much needed balance issues.

Those issues I may be able to live with and return along with some of my buddies (logged in a few times recently) HOWEVER the one thing that will stop us returning and actually re-subbing is if there is no catch up system in place. I currently have 133 champion points and I ONLY PvP as do most of my guildies and if we are at a constant and frankly huge disadvantage in pvp due to having no way of catching up champion points then I will simply uninstall this game and NEVER return.

So ZoS the ball is in your court If you want to have your glory when the imperial city hits by bringing back players that have left or tried out other games then the catch up system needs to be in place as I know for a fact I will not spend a single penny until that happens and if I start to invest my time in another game after your update then that will be it for me and most the guys who were in Renegades EU.

Champ points are why you are losing huh? If you had 100 more you guys would win huh?

This is nonsense.

xaraan

They should have just converted vet levels to levels, capped it at 65 (A nice even number that I prefer over 66 and considering you become V1 from level 49 and kind of skip advancing from 50 to v1 the extra two levels might work out to that instead of 66) and that would have allowed all existing gear and items to be converted over easily enough. And then they could just worry how they were going to handle the future seasonal gear without adding levels. I think making the change while you added the two levels would have been easier for people to swallow because at least they would see the move to eliminate vet working instead of just being pillow talk.

Vahrokh

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Ok, here's my take on this.

First off thanks to @Deltia for the thread, and the comprehensive opening post.

Reading through the thread a sentiment seemed to come to the fore for a short while that I think needs addressing.

Someone, I can't recall who, said that Zeni needs to go talk to the Streamers.

No, it doesn't.

What percentage of the playerbase are major streamers? 5% maybe.

The same sentiment is often used with reference to PvPers and End-Game Raiders.

What percentage of the playerbase are PvPers? Well as an average for the MMORPG industry it is rarely above 20%.

What percentage of the playerbase are End-Game Raiders? Well, again as an industry average, it is rarely above 20%.

But the key here is what degree of crossover is there among these three groups? I'd honestly be surprised if all three groups combined made up more than 20-25% of the playerbase.

So why should Zeni go listen to and talk with them?

Is there some elitism assumed here; that these people know what is wrong with the game and how to fix it?

Well I hope not.

I can't think of one single MMORPG that has been improved in any way by listening to, for example, PvPers. MMORPGs are not the platform for PvP; the conflict between balancing PvP and PvE almost always leads to both areas of the game suffering and no one being happy.

No more strength should be given to the voice of any group over any other.

I'll be honest and say IC means nothing to me; I don't PvP in MMORPgs for the reasons I outlined above. If all the "new content" is is IC then there is no new content for me.

If I can avoid Cyrodil and IC totally then I will; if I can't I'll be in just long enough to pick up the Shards I need and then I'll be out never to return.

All The Best

MMORPGs are the precursors to social media. In social media, there are "leaders" (a minority) and there are "followers" (huge majority) who "live and feel" basing on what the leaders do or feel. Now, the peculiar thing is, if you kick out the leaders, sooner or later you start losing the followers as well.

Therefore, since the beginning, MMO makers have catered to the minority that provides leaders in order to gather a lot of followers.

Imagine a new, obscure MMO. One day, a very known player starts playing it. He posts videos, creates podcasts, major MMO magazines or websites interview him. He describes how good the end game PvE / PvP is, how unique and epic is to play this game. Voilà, a single guy now is creating traction to get his fans into the game. People will expect this is an AAA title and will be willing to pay a sub.

Had the same game only catered to mediocres and dream-less grinders, all you'd ever read anywhere is: a mediocre score, some snide remakrs like: "just your average Korean grinder", "yes, it's nice for when you have a spare half hour" and so on.
PEople will expect this to be just another indie, F2P game.

See the difference?

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Vahrokh wrote: »

Imagine a new, obscure MMO. One day, a very known player starts playing it. He posts videos, creates podcasts, major MMO magazines or websites interview him. He describes how good the end game PvE / PvP is, how unique and epic is to play this game. Voilà, a single guy now is creating traction to get his fans into the game. People will expect this is an AAA title and will be willing to pay a sub.

See the difference?

Yeah, you are describing someone easily led by the opinions of others.

All power to you, or rather your shepherd, if that person is you.

That person is not me.

I didn't buy ESO because of Deltia's, or anyone else's opinion of it,

I bought it because it was ES and because I wanted to.

If your defence of the current state of the game is that "Hey, look its been dumbed down for the Facebook / Twitter generation" then I am afraid it really hasn't worked.

There's a reason I don't use those things - I have too much respect for myself, and for the people I choose to socialise / communicate with.

I'd rather pull my own teeth out with a chainsaw than lower myself to use Facebook or Twitter.

All The Best

Morvul

Armitas wrote: »

Found it. From Matt Firor responding to a question about the payment model that ESO will take. (emphasis added)

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

Here we are 1 box purchase away from a full a F2P game. We can see these sacrifices play out with the interplay between the champion system, the gap, and the Crown store.

With no reason to pay a sub in this game the source of funds will slow trickle more and more into the crown store, as more and more sacrifices are made.

shame but true.
building a good game and building a good store-based money earner are unfortunately two very difffernt things...

eventide03b14a_ESO

Bromburak wrote: »

wraithguknub18_ESO wrote: »

This increase to V16 is just a knee jerk reaction to the lack of content people are feeling.

Yes and no, its a necessary step before dropping Veteran levels on a long term.
I know this sounds weird and many of us don't understand why ZOS is doing this but their plan is to change the whole system without Veteranlevels and of course the workload required for this is huge and will take a very long time.

Filling the time between allows them to release more content like IC and technically its easier to add 2 levels than a full re-itemization on everything without Vetlevels until the final goal is done.

However, one side effect with the upcoming changes is that it has an unexpected impact on champion points too.
When players think they have implemented CPs originally so that we can work on something in endgame to improve our characters its true but the upcoming XP Bonus for V 16 raise was not planned when CPs have been added. That's what its basically all about, V14-V16 is nothing more than a time filler and workaround and they didn't calculate all the side effects coming with it.

Okay, what is the goal then? We don't seem to have a clear idea anymore.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to give us your feedback, and for keeping it constructive. We'll be sure to pass this along to the appropriate teams to read over.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, what good does this really do to pass on? The things that @Deltia is mentioning isn't anything new with the Champion System that the MAJORITY of the player base has been screaming about since March 2nd 2015....

It clearly doesn't look like anyone over there really cares about anything other than selling XP Pots in the Crown store now. Why else would new VR levels have been added to "supposedly" be removed later?

Just as many others have mentioned time and time again, VR levels aren't going anywhere.....

I would like this answered too. Simply telling us to keep it civil isn't very useful. Please give us an actual response.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Vizier wrote: »

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

this is turning into the Marxist ESO Manifesto. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. Let's just have a continuous "catch up" mechanism in place. XP and CP are distributed evenly based on current players.

:-/


Why the hell should there be a catch up method when there is already diminishing return on the use of CP points? That is your catch up method. At some point a person only gets .1 for the use of 1. When you are lower in CP in a category you GET MORE % out of the use of a point. We don't need no stinking catch up buttons... just sayin.

The true marxism is you people wanting the prasants to farm for no gain... kind of like a stalinist economy.

True competition... as in all sport, involves standardized equipment.

Everyone has access to the same equipment. It's what's underneath that counts. Who trains harder. Who puts their time in. Who pushes themselves. Who is disciplined. Who plans. Who wants it more. Not who whines loudest and longest.

I miss the LOL button.

NobleNerd

2 vet levels are not "busy work". its come out along with the imperial city. craglorn v11-12, upper crag 13-14 imp city 15-16.. duh



Imperial City is PvP only. Why would you add 2 vr levels for just PvP? If they are raising the vr levels hopefully they have more than IC to offer.

Also if there is going to be new gear tiers with the new content there better be upgrades to the crafting.... considering when ESO was talked about pre-launch it was all about how important crafted gear was going to be to the game. I believe it was even said it was going to be the most important gear in the game.... doesn't feel that way lately.

Xendyn

NobleNerd wrote: »

2 vet levels are not "busy work". its come out along with the imperial city. craglorn v11-12, upper crag 13-14 imp city 15-16.. duh



Imperial City is PvP only. Why would you add 2 vr levels for just PvP? If they are raising the vr levels hopefully they have more than IC to offer.

Also if there is going to be new gear tiers with the new content there better be upgrades to the crafting.... considering when ESO was talked about pre-launch it was all about how important crafted gear was going to be to the game. I believe it was even said it was going to be the most important gear in the game.... doesn't feel that way lately.

No, it's not exactly pvp only. There will be a main questline, dailies and other pve objectives in there.
elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_City_%28Online%29