No to VR16

Personofsecrets · July 2015

>Face when unable redesign the games level systems to allow for new content to have new items without a higher vet rank attached to them
>Face when able to nerf all grinds
>Face when able to redesign all of provisioning
>Face when able to code everything to be stolen from
>Face when able to introduce champion system
>Face when able to redesign and rebalance all of the skills in the game

sadownik · July 2015

nastuug wrote: »

smokes wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Or perhaps
a. deliver "new content" that was shown to people on guild summit and was decribed as practicly finished while properly removing vr ranks.
b. deliver "new content" and increase vr ranks further spliting player base both in attitude towards vr system and progression at the same time making it even harder to remove it in future if not for technical reasons then most certainly because of group of vocal players who deem their vr ranks as an archevement worthy noting in annals.

any new content with any new gear is tied to the itemisation system - the itemisation system is tied to the VR system.

you therefore cannot release new content with new gear without increasing the VR cap - until such time that the itemisation system is stripped from the VR system. this is not a simple procedure, if it was, don't you think they would've done it by now?

also VR ranks are being massively nerfed in the same patch as this is being released.

when VR ranks are finally removed, all those VR pro's you see as massively far ahead, will still be massively far ahead both in champion points and itemisation.

Oreary? And what massive nerf is this you're talking about? The minor 15% reduction in XP needed per VR and the 50% boost in XP per VR quest turn in, right?

When you make a small percentage reduction to a very large number (1MM), and a large percentage increase to a very small number (5k), people will find that this is still a BS grind. A grind that still requires the purchase of derpXP scrolls in order to grind the VR within a reasonable amount of time...

Im actually suprised that people are buying it. Its one of the most simple salesman's trick and many are eating it like a hungry pelicans. Well cant be fooled if you dont want to be fooled.

Rosveen · July 2015

Weren't Undaunted sets introduced without level cap increase?

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

Nvm

yes, valkyn.

Rosveen · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Nvm

yes, valkyn.

Uh, you may want to fix that quote.

My mistake, I put it back now.

nastuug · July 2015

sadownik wrote: »

nastuug wrote: »

smokes wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Or perhaps
a. deliver "new content" that was shown to people on guild summit and was decribed as practicly finished while properly removing vr ranks.
b. deliver "new content" and increase vr ranks further spliting player base both in attitude towards vr system and progression at the same time making it even harder to remove it in future if not for technical reasons then most certainly because of group of vocal players who deem their vr ranks as an archevement worthy noting in annals.

any new content with any new gear is tied to the itemisation system - the itemisation system is tied to the VR system.

you therefore cannot release new content with new gear without increasing the VR cap - until such time that the itemisation system is stripped from the VR system. this is not a simple procedure, if it was, don't you think they would've done it by now?

also VR ranks are being massively nerfed in the same patch as this is being released.

when VR ranks are finally removed, all those VR pro's you see as massively far ahead, will still be massively far ahead both in champion points and itemisation.

Oreary? And what massive nerf is this you're talking about? The minor 15% reduction in XP needed per VR and the 50% boost in XP per VR quest turn in, right?

When you make a small percentage reduction to a very large number (1MM), and a large percentage increase to a very small number (5k), people will find that this is still a BS grind. A grind that still requires the purchase of derpXP scrolls in order to grind the VR within a reasonable amount of time...

Im actually suprised that people are buying it. Its one of the most simple salesman's trick and many are eating it like a hungry pelicans. Well cant be fooled if you dont want to be fooled.

@sadownik Many aren't buying it, but the ones who are don't seem to understand that you can add even 100% XP gain to quest turn-ins and you're still only looking at... what, 11k? And a 15% reduction between VR's brings it down from 1MM to 850k. Very, very minor changes, yet extensive, over-the-top class reworking. Makes loads of sense. 10/10 for ZOS trolling on this one.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

They pulled the same thing with trials exp. People will be excited to try the new exp gains, realize they are still unimpressive, and move on.

smokes · July 2015

sadownik wrote: »

1. I do know its not a simple task. But then how it will be more simple in 6 months or 1 year? Surely they have the new system design by now? I mean no self respecting develper would describe removing 1 system while apllying the other system without even concepts for the first part right?
2. Vr ranks are far from beeing massvly nerfed. Where do you take that from? 50% more from few specific cadwell quests that dont make even 20% of overall xp in vet ranks? Public dungeons that give so miniscule xp so adding 100% xp still puts them below any random group of open world mobs? 20% craglon? I have seen xp that is there now and dont see what is changed by 20%added to that. I will be very surprised if the nerf is 15% overall. In my opinion so far its closer to 5%. Hardly massive.

think of it like prime numbers. 2 3 5 7 9 11 13 17 you know the order they go in.

now, think of it as each VR level is a prime number, so VR1=2 VR2=3 VR3=5 VR4=7 VR14 = 14th prime number (43).

now, if you go in and make it so that after VR14 it no longer uses prime numbers, but instead uses some other algorithm, you've suddenly made switching the code that will translate VR's from prime numbers into CP-modifiers or something else incredibly more complicated to write a script for.

so where as before gear itemisation might translate as something like

green = VRlevel/5
blue = VRlevel/4
purple = VRlevel/3
yellow = VRlevel/2

where VR level == the prime number

you would then have to do something like

if VR <= 14 {green = VRlevel/5, blue = VRlevel/4, purple = VRlevel/3, yellow = VRlevel/2}
if VR > 14 {green= VRlevel+10*5.2/5, blue = VRlevel+12*8.4/17}
if VR = 15 more code specific to VR
if VR = 16 more code specific to VR16

it gets VERY mathy. it's actually easier to leave the current scaling system in place than it is to try and "bodge it" to make a fix now, which ends up complicating it further down the line.

ok, so maybe VR's aren't being massively nerfed, but they are being nerfed, which is a good thing.

edit: just to clarify, this isn't how it works, just making an example to try to explain how removing VR ranks and adding new content actually makes removing them later much more difficult.

Faulgor · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

>Face when unable redesign the games level systems to allow for new content to have new items without a higher vet rank attached to them
>Face when able to nerf all grinds
>Face when able to redesign all of provisioning
>Face when able to code everything to be stolen from
>Face when able to introduce champion system
>Face when able to redesign and rebalance all of the skills in the game

>Face when audio and visual effect when you gut fish and get a Perfect Roe
>Face when putting an echantment on an item still has no audio or visual effect since beta

iTzStevey · July 2015

Atleast they increased the exp. Only by 15% but owell better than nothing, and they are still planning on removing veteran ranks. I just want to know if new content will be locked behind a paywall, which would make it harder for players that dont don't like spending extra money on games ontop of what they've already spent to reach VR16.

flohowyo · July 2015

V16 ?! Nope i left the Game after yeesterday's Live Stream.

They will never remove VR Levels, why should they? it is is good for money

sadownik · July 2015

smokes wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

1. I do know its not a simple task. But then how it will be more simple in 6 months or 1 year? Surely they have the new system design by now? I mean no self respecting develper would describe removing 1 system while apllying the other system without even concepts for the first part right?
2. Vr ranks are far from beeing massvly nerfed. Where do you take that from? 50% more from few specific cadwell quests that dont make even 20% of overall xp in vet ranks? Public dungeons that give so miniscule xp so adding 100% xp still puts them below any random group of open world mobs? 20% craglon? I have seen xp that is there now and dont see what is changed by 20%added to that. I will be very surprised if the nerf is 15% overall. In my opinion so far its closer to 5%. Hardly massive.

think of it like prime numbers. 2 3 5 7 9 11 13 17 you know the order they go in.

now, think of it as each VR level is a prime number, so VR1=2 VR2=3 VR3=5 VR4=7 VR14 = 14th prime number (43).

now, if you go in and make it so that after VR14 it no longer uses prime numbers, but instead uses some other algorithm, you've suddenly made switching the code that will translate VR's from prime numbers into CP-modifiers or something else incredibly more complicated to write a script for.

so where as before gear itemisation might translate as something like

green = VRlevel/5
blue = VRlevel/4
purple = VRlevel/3
yellow = VRlevel/2

where VR level == the prime number

you would then have to do something like

if VR <= 14 {green = VRlevel/5, blue = VRlevel/4, purple = VRlevel/3, yellow = VRlevel/2}
if VR > 14 {green= VRlevel+10*5.2/5, blue = VRlevel+12*8.4/17}
if VR = 15 more code specific to VR
if VR = 16 more code specific to VR16

it gets VERY mathy. it's actually easier to leave the current scaling system in place than it is to try and "bodge it" to make a fix now, which ends up complicating it further down the line.

ok, so maybe VR's aren't being massively nerfed, but they are being nerfed, which is a good thing.

edit: just to clarify, this isn't how it works, just making an example to try to explain how removing VR ranks and adding new content actually makes removing them later much more difficult.

Mate i am by no means implying its a simple task. If it was i dare to say 1 weekend for 2 coders on hangover would suffice to get the job done. But its not some indie develper we are talking about. There are supposibly dozens of proffesionals that are dealing with such problems on daily basis. Furthermore in my almost 20 year long adventure with MMOs i witnessed changes much, much deeper succesfuly applied to product.

BuggeX · July 2015

flohowyo wrote: »

V16 ?! Nope i left the Game after yeesterday's Live Stream.

They will never remove VR Levels, why should they? it is is good for money

send stuff to me ty

bertenburnyb16_ESO · July 2015

wowowow hold the presses

wheres this comming from? they said it in the live or what?

and I concur, this sux bigtime, I have 2 VR14's with about 6 total end lvl gear sets ... gonna be lotta crafting & searching/buying

MornaBaine · July 2015

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

Just watch the Twitch video. Eric Wrobel went into quite a bit of detail as to why veteran ranks can't be removed just yet. They are ingrained into ESO in such a way that they cannot be removed until an entirely new system is created to replace it.

Have we been under the mistaken impression that they've BEEN WORKING on just such a system for quite some time? The Champion System was supposed to merely be the first part of that replacement system. The ONLY thing that will mitigate the damage ZoS has done with this change in course is IF there is a HUGE chunk of new and solo-able content to go with it. And IF that is exactly what is happening then it was a PR blunder of epic proportions NOT to have mentioned it in conjunction with this whole, "Hey we're giving you MOAR VR levels!" nonsense.

flohowyo · July 2015

Buggex, i gave the stuff to the first new Player who wrote back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mST9yAcmiJ8

sadownik · July 2015

flohowyo wrote: »

Buggex, i gave the stuff to the first new Player who wrote back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mST9yAcmiJ8

Thats how its done. Well played.

NewBlacksmurf · July 2015

Sausage wrote: »

If they keep VR, they better make them account wide like CP is.

Agreed but it's still a bad idea

smokes · July 2015

sadownik wrote: »

Mate i am by no means implying its a simple task. If it was i dare to say 1 weekend for 2 coders on hangover would suffice to get the job done. But its not some indie develper we are talking about. There are supposibly dozens of proffesionals that are dealing with such problems on daily basis. Furthermore in my almost 20 year long adventure with MMOs i witnessed changes much, much deeper succesfuly applied to product.

i can't even pretend to understand the full complexities of their system or exactly how many people are working on implementing the changes or testing them, as well as developing all the other new features and testing them too.

it's the QA that takes forever, fix 1 bug, cause 20 more.

azoriangaming · July 2015

No this is just a step backwards for the game imo

tist · July 2015

This is not what people want.

Darkonflare15 · July 2015

I played the game because I like playing the game. Not for the end game. Not for pvp. Just leveled up a alt just playing the game no grinding and I level up through the Vet system way faster than before. Now I can level up through the system even faster. This does not even concern me at all. Now what I like know is what new stuff that is going to be added into this game.

Diamond_10 · July 2015

sigh, i guess that master weapon i JUST got after all this time trying is gonna be tossed in the trash then.
Thanks Zenimax

Kupoking · July 2015

Absolutely zero point to raise vr cap othen than gear change.

2 more attribute pts? Even If I stay v14 ill have more stats then majority of peeps in the game due to my 300+ cp.

Oh and mind you 2 vr ranks isnt 2 levels. 1 vr rank = 13-14 levels. Which means so far you must achieve 175-184 levels to be maxed out.

Hello crown exp pots and eso+ exp.

Fkin zos. No integrity at all.

sadownik · July 2015

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

I played the game because I like playing the game. Not for the end game. Not for pvp. Just leveled up a alt just playing the game no grinding and I level up through the Vet system way faster than before. Now I can level up through the system even faster. This does not even concern me at all. Now what I like know is what new stuff that is going to be added into this game.

How you are going to get to new stuff if you are not in endgame? Whats that new stuff to you then?

ZigoSid · July 2015

I know they'll never remove VR, no matter what they say but I didn't expected them to raise the VR cap -_-

SC0TY999 · July 2015

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

No this is just a step backwards for the game imo

We all should find something else to play.

TBH Tom Clancy's the division will be out before they release any meaningful content for this garbage.

Just another band aid for a failing game!

They haven't got a clue what they're doing and have proven this time and time again.

What happened to removing the Vet lvl's? Then they decide to increase it LOL they can't even make up their own minds let alone listen to the community!

Yep I say I got out just in time :P

Iluvrien · July 2015

sadownik wrote: »

Forztr wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We'll talk more about the the Veteran Rank increase, including the newly added benefits and vision behind doing so, when we start going into specifics about Imperial City later this month.

This is a PR fail. You drop the bomb of increasing the Veteran Rank cap but we have to wait two weeks for your reasoning? That's two weeks of player rage providing nothing but negative feedback and feeling towards your game.

On an issue as contentious as Veteran Ranks you should have released the information and reasoning at the same time. This just makes you look like amateurs.

Of course the cynic in me just thinks that you didn't predict the outcry and now need time to make up some spin to try to sell the idea.

The cynic in me tells me they know exactly what they are doing. Drop the bomb, wait it out and just clean the remaining ashes week after. The negative feedback was inevitable the most recent client base is even less keen to use official forums (sorry fellow console players but its true) and even if they do many of them didnt reach vet ranks yet so they fail to grasp the problem - no big harm done here.

[Emphasis mine]

This is actually a good point. The horrendous timing and framing of this information (you do not tell a prospective customer or client about a change to their service while intentionally withholding the specifics) is probably to do with the console players.

This information could have been put into the ESO live in 2 weeks time (giving them a day or so extra testing time for whatever) and could have been rolled out as a "Look at all of this amazing stuff!" but at that point (over a month after console launch) it is possible that dedicated players would have been heading towards cap (especially with the xp boosting mechanics now in place).

However getting this in place before that particular line was reached might make some of those players take pause, and not invest in gold end-game gear, before they got there... thus decreasing the amount of rage that ZOS would be likely to face.

At least I hope that is the reason. At least that approach would be half-way thought out. I mean it would also be half-way utterly thoughtless, dismissive and very very arrogant ("we don't care if we *** off the PC players, it isn't like they matter") but at least it superficially might make some sense.

...the other choice is that this is the dumbest timing for an announcement I have seen in a while... and I worked in market research for two years... with banks for clients... during the immediate aftermath of the global financial crisis. So the competition there is already pretty stiff.

Hoodster92_ESO · July 2015

What annoys me about this more than actually having to level up to VR 16 is that you people still can't make up your god damn minds!

This game has suffered an Identity crisis of attempting to make a single player game into an MMO experience (which failed miserably). Then you come along and say that you are going to fix it by taking out the Veteran levels that people have been complaining about sense the start of this game. So to me it still sounds like you are in a crisis of not knowing what the hell you want your game to be!

Personally, the leveling doesn't bother me, especially if you actually decide this time around to make the quests in the new content worth a *** and give decent XP and actual reward for doing them. But the sad thing is that you guys keep switching things up and going back to your old ways then say you are doing something new that I have a hard time believing that the next load of content will be anymore of an improvement from Craglorn.....

Ask the players how many of them ACTUALLY ended up doing the quest line for the Theif? I did but that's because I am a *** with content, I want to see it. If you are going to add these levels you better be taking a look at what failed in Craglorn and fixing it, tired of seeing at the start of the new content "Tower Grind / Shadow Grind / Burial Grind". This is an ESO game not some stinking Korean MMO, Rewarding Engaging Content > Zerging a Squirrel Spawn Point for Hours.

Gipo · July 2015

What about battle leveling in vet Cyrodiil? Is it so hard, you've done it in non vet?
What about more exp in Cyrodiil? I don't want to grind mobs to be competitive and to enjoy pvp, this is ESO not a random asian grind-mmo.