No End Game = No MMO
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Vendersleigh✭✭✭
Yes, your VR level has all the relevance when it comes to this topic.
You haven't played the end game content, thus you cannot have personal preferences in regards to it, as you do not know how it plays out in practice and how it could be made better, nor how you personally feel about it.
This whole topic is about end game content & replayability (in this game, not other MMOs mind you), not the leveling experience.
No one is asking for "I WIN buttons", whatever you mean by that.
Two negatives make a positive, what did they teach you at maths?
On a more serious note, if it does not take anything away from you, but gives all the people at end game replayability, how is it a bad thing exactly?
Dynamic content you say? Sadly, if that dynamic content isn't rewarding, people won't do it over & over again and get bored. It sounds to me GW2 would be a game you'd like and it doesn't have a subscription either (I wonder why...
)
Kind of you to call people content locusts whose sole objective is max level. I'm sorry to burst your bubble again (man... all this bubble bursting, it's exhausting), but it took me over a month to reach max level, doing every single quest, dungeon & world boss in game. I did read *all* the dialogue and books even, just like I did in Morrowind, Oblivion & Skyrim
So good job at generalizing again.
There is plenty to do, but no reasons to do them more than once (I don't know why people don't seem to understand this)
OP, we do not need to be at current Max level in order to understand what we do and do not want as "end game".
Your version of end game bores myself and many others including posters here. Your version is not the only version possible and I hope it never comes to pass (already is far too much in your favour than what I would prefer).
Roll on housing, minigames, racing, justice system (even though I am sure that some will try to pervert it from the purpose intended), etc. Things to do that are not mindlessly repeating content over and over in order to gain items. Pastimes that do not require groups or speed or "leetness". Just things that are fun to occupy one's time. After all, this is a game, not work one has to do nor sport one has to win.
PvP is the way to go if you want to be beating others and having a reason to repeat content as other players will always provide the endless variety that a programme can never do. Try more of that .
Please stop trying to WoWify this game.4 -
Xeres14✭✭✭OK this again. Now I'll be real blunt.
This game NEEDS better end game and the people who NEED it the most are the real TES fans. And they are the people who will use end game least but benefit from it the most.
ZO and Bethesda already know who their core fans are who will support this game (almost) no matter what. You are not the audience they NEED to keep. They need to keep the MMO fan who played WoW and other similar games.
Remember one thing here above everything else - this is a subscription based game.
So you have your TES fans and MMO fans all paying subscriptions. Guess what happens if there's no decent end game? A decent amount of the MMO fans will leave eventually because leveling can only satisfy this crowd for so long. So a good number of their subscriptions are gone and less money is coming into a subscription based game.
So what do you think happens then? The very thing no one wants to see - F2P with micro-transactions. And remembering from the F2P thread not too long ago that won't sit well with anyone.4 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actually its TES online rather than WOW online. Its the right version.Anything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
GaldorP✭✭✭✭✭kentgreigrwb17_ESO wrote: »ESO is full of one time content, even if you bother to chase achievements and dungeon completions at all. Overall bad MMO design.
This statements sums it up pretty well.
At some points even the casual players who still have much to explore right now will complete most one-time content (or at least all content that can be soloed).
ESO has actual content instead of cheap MMOG eternal grinds (grinds which can occupy players for thousands of hours and take no development time at all where as the content in ESO needs thousands of hours of development time and can be completed in a few hours). The problem is that the content updates cannot keep up with the pace of 95% of the players. Content developpers still have a head-start because of the large amount of content that came with launch which many players haven't completed yet, but at some point this won't work anymore and people will realize they pay a subscription fee to play a single-player game online (many people probably don't mind that but will quit once they have completed most content; there cannot be a healthy MMO community with a design like this).
@Cogo: Why exactly are you quoting and linking so many PR statements made months ago. Half of which have turned out to be unrealistic, untrue or are simply broken promises?
(P.S.: To say this again: I never liked WoW. For me the best MMOG experience I've had was Lineage II in Open Beta/Prelude until about Chronicle 4).
(P.S.2: I like ESO and enjoy playing it which is why I don't want it to die. It needs some endgame treadmills and better itemization).Edited by GaldorP on September 29, 2014 1:14PM1 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭m.stollb16_ESO wrote: »
@Cogo: Why exactly are you quoting and linking so many PR statements made months ago. Half of which have turned out to be unrealistic, untrue or are simply broken promises?
What am I linking that is untrue? Everything is from Zenimax.
Unlike others, I am giving a source for any statement in a discussion.
"Yes, I am right. No, you are not", is pointless unless you show where you got it from.
The Zenimax info was for the starter of this thread, who might not even be interested in ESO. He claimed Zenimax never said X. I simply gave him proof that they did.
Would you rather I say "you are wrong, cause I think ESO should be like everquest?"Edited by Cogo on September 29, 2014 1:32PMOghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"0 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭So other than PvP what is the end game here? Everyone wants to flame the OP but what is there to do? I sat at VR10 and there was pointless dungeons to do over and over again for no incentive or PvP. Then sat at VR12 with even more pointless dungeons to do over and over with no incentive or trials with no incentive or PvP. Now it is VR14 with the exact same scenario.
You can buy any gear. You can craft gear pretty much as good. The crafting materials are basically free, all the recipes are basically free. Any filler stuff you can buy and money is easy to find.
What are you supposed to do at End Game level cap to keep you interested other than PvP?3 -
JessieColt✭✭✭✭
Sounds like you don't like MMOs. By the way, ESO is an MMO.
That is right, ESO stands for Elder Scrolls Online, not World of Warcraft.
But why would we have to kill WoW?
Let that game be, everyone wants to "kill it" these days.
Yes, there are people interested in the end game when it comes to MMOs. Shocking. I don't think they are coming back either, unless the end game problems are fixed.
Good to know you are in charge of this game, maybe you would be willing to listen to some of the feedback on this thread and gazillion others.
I don't think people would be even bothering with posting on the forums if they didn't like the game and want the best for it.
Usually when you release an AAA title, you want to keep people around instead of driving them to other games
I like MMO's just fine.
I am in a very nice social guild. A guild that has members that chat in game. We also have vent if the guild members want it. We also do casual guild runs every weekend.
I pug with other players in game. I help out when a call is made in zone for help with a world boss, dolmen, etc.
I have absolutely no issues with with MMO's and I really love the fact that ESO is available as an MMO.
So you are completely wrong in your assumption about me.
However, there is a difference between posting suggestions on how to improve a game verses posting a complaint that this game is not a cookie cutter of other games.
Don't be stupid in making comments about driving players to other games. That clearly wasn't the point of my post. But that seems to have been lost on you.
In case you had an issue understanding what my point was, I will spell it out for you.
There are a lot of people in this game who used to play other games, some still do, some, like me, left with no intention of every returning to those 'other games'.
I outlined my reasons for leaving WoW. The peer pressure to grind out end game content.
A lot of people I have talked to, and most of the ones in my guild, specifically left other games because of the same types of reasons why I left.
Again, the pressures to grind out end game content for the slim chance at an item drop.
Yes, there are a LOT of ways this game can be improved. But improving this game doesn't mean it has to be, or that anyone really wants it to be, a cookie cutter of other games.
If you want a game that is a clone of other game, then yes, you should be playing that other game.
The people who want this game to be like other games are a vocal minority. Change bothers them.
ESO is in the top 5 grossing subscription based games. And while it is no where near the income generating level of Blizzard, no company is.
Keep in mind that Blizzard, and WoW, are bleeding millions of users every quarter. Clearly a lot of people are at the end of their enjoyment for what that game has to offer and are looking for something different.
Turning this game, or any other game, into a clone of WoW wont increase the user base of this game.
As for your sarcastic comment about me being in charge of this game, I am not, as you clearly know.
However, even a cursory reading of the releases from Zos in the road ahead, and in the forums, and in any other news releases or replies to users, will clearly show that they have no intention of turning this game into 'that' game.
They have already stated, time and again, that certain cloning of features and functions from other games will not be instituted in this game.
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Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You then get attuned get into a 40 man and take her out in an epic battle that lasted 10 minutes
To this day if you did it in Vanilla you have a legendary feat
I was there. I did it. As I said in other posts I was one of the dastardly first feral druids who dared to go above and beyond. Once learned my DPS was not competitive enough (DPS really mattered in Onyxia, not just in AA trial
) I geared up (part fire resist and massive health) and went to tank her. It was one of the most unforgettable experiences a raider could ever have.That encounter was tied in with Blackwing Lair - her brother which was Epic. The first boss alone required co-ordination of 8 groups or more of 4 dps with Mind crontrolling the boss to smash eggs while killing those adds (so many adds) that try to kill the mind controlled boss.
Loved that too. And loved (and main tanked) BW lair including Vaelstratz, one of the most original encounters I have ever done.
Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO2 -
Thechemicals✭✭✭✭✭Seems like this game has a lot of endgame now. I suppose its not enough for some.Vr14 Templar since release- dual resto
Vr14 Dk bow/2h
Brayan Blackthunder
Goddick
Daggerfall Covenant2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Instanced dungeons like Grotto, both at lvl 15ish and Vet rank, is pretty similar to both Molten Core raids and Scholomance/Sunken Temple dungeons the first year. Before nerfs, removal of MC key requirements, zone shrinking, making mobs easy and buffing players, game information available and addons/guides who told you what to do , where to stand, when to move, and what button to press.
I was there and have done every pixel in Vanilla WoW with a love and dedication I can't even put in practice in ESO.
I would immediately pay $30,000 to have the privilege to have a wayback machine and re-live the same experiences.
To be again the raid leader in the second top guild on a server and then merge in the first and compete for every top 10 world kills again. Have again friends in Nihilum, share tactics with them and so on.
To have 10 years less and become again fast at play.
To date it's just impossible to find the same, beginning from WoW itself, which I quit once I proved it had been so much trivialized I could tank (always as druid of course!) instances made for 10 levels above me.The diversity and difference in tactics on each Molten core encounter, except for Ragnaros which was just about gear, is very similar to ESO instanced dungeons.
Not really. Having had the task to organize and split the groups at the various bosses, I can say only the last ESO trial bosses come close to requiring any sort of skill or coordination. Actually remove skill, in ESO we only use reflect, and sorc / NB / templar ultimates and that's it.If not for its beauty, but the hardcore, huge Shada’s Tear in Graglorn that feels very close to Everquest's Temple of Veeshan, with different wings, but smaller and don't take 12 hours to clear.
Yeah Shada's Tear is the only ESO dungeon that requires a semi-intelligent form of life to be completed.Even if ESO Dungeons are 4 man, WoW was 40 and EQ 72, they still required teamwork, skill and no one who played either game under a month was even allowed in the raid. (Who would be that stupid?)
I don't know on your server, but in order to accept anyone in my (or other similar guild) they had to prove themselves with some of our members. In example, an awesome Arms warrior would obliterate people in PvP. I took him as DPS, I did not even ask him to change spec, and he would perform like a pro in our raids. Same for healers. The average quality was terrible but when we did instances on our alts and met the few awesome guys, we hired them at once.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭JessieColt wrote: »JessieColt wrote: »I like MMO's just fine.
I am in a very nice social guild. A guild that has members that chat in game. We also have vent if the guild members want it. We also do casual guild runs every weekend.
I pug with other players in game. I help out when a call is made in zone for help with a world boss, dolmen, etc.
Awesome. Do you want a medal for that?JessieColt wrote: »I have absolutely no issues with with MMO's and I really love the fact that ESO is available as an MMO.
So you are completely wrong in your assumption about me.
Well then, I hope you understand the aspects that come with MMOs, one of them being the end game (no, the game does not "end" when you finish leveling).JessieColt wrote: »However, there is a difference between posting suggestions on how to improve a game verses posting a complaint that this game is not a cookie cutter of other games.
Don't be stupid in making comments about driving players to other games. That clearly wasn't the point of my post. But that seems to have been lost on you.
Oh, we might as well remove the chatbox & skill bar also, since they are also "cookie cutter" of other games. Who needs those, right?
Hint: doing so might drive players to other games, but who cares right?JessieColt wrote: »In case you had an issue understanding what my point was, I will spell it out for you.
There are a lot of people in this game who used to play other games, some still do, some, like me, left with no intention of every returning to those 'other games'.
I don't think anyone here is asking you to go play those "other games", so your point remains veiled in obscurity.JessieColt wrote: »I outlined my reasons for leaving WoW. The peer pressure to grind out end game content.
I've lost count how many times you've said "me", "my", "I" on this post.
I hate to break it to you, but your experience with another game that has different combat mechanics, different character progression, different end game content, different leveling experience has zero relevance when it comes to ESO.JessieColt wrote: »A lot of people I have talked to, and most of the ones in my guild, specifically left other games because of the same types of reasons why I left.
Again, the pressures to grind out end game content for the slim chance at an item drop.
It sounds like your guild mates do not like end game raiding.
Guess what, there are other things to do in this game (as there was in WoW & other MMOs).JessieColt wrote: »Yes, there are a LOT of ways this game can be improved. But improving this game doesn't mean it has to be, or that anyone really wants it to be, a cookie cutter of other games.
If you want a game that is a clone of other game, then yes, you should be playing that other game.
Why do some people always insist that taking features that are proven to work from another game is immediately "cloning" that game?
If you want to get rid of cloned features, lets get rid of all armour and gear. Lets get rid of chatbox & other players also, I'm sure someone did those before.
Wake up.JessieColt wrote: »The people who want this game to be like other games are a vocal minority. Change bothers them.
It's quite a change indeed. People are used to have things to do & character progression at end game, which is what separates MMOs from singleplayer/co-op games.
Also, if you think it's the minority of max level players bothered by the current state of end game, you couldn't be more wrong... (feel free to start a poll).JessieColt wrote: »ESO is in the top 5 grossing subscription based games. And while it is no where near the income generating level of Blizzard, no company is.
Nice. Link please.JessieColt wrote: »Keep in mind that Blizzard, and WoW, are bleeding millions of users every quarter. Clearly a lot of people are at the end of their enjoyment for what that game has to offer and are looking for something different.
And ESO is bleeding max level subscribers, who find nothing to do (more than once) at max level.
Also WoW is releasing an expansion soon, which will further accelerate that bleeding, unless changes are made.JessieColt wrote: »Turning this game, or any other game, into a clone of WoW wont increase the user base of this game.
Again with the "WoW this, WoW that".
You seem to have some kind of a personal vendetta against the game
It is not healthy having such angry feelings towards a video game.JessieColt wrote: »As for your sarcastic comment about me being in charge of this game, I am not, as you clearly know.
Phew, there might be hope after all!JessieColt wrote: »However, even a cursory reading of the releases from Zos in the road ahead, and in the forums, and in any other news releases or replies to users, will clearly show that they have no intention of turning this game into 'that' game.
They have already stated, time and again, that certain cloning of features and functions from other games will not be instituted in this game.
Link please?
"In the Champion system, we will have more gear introduced by seasons where there is no level requirement. They will be harder to get. Season 8 gear will be more powerful than season 7 gear for example but the season 7 gear will be more readily available. There will be a solution for crafting as well."
- Paul Sage, QuakeCon
Your whole argument is like "how dare you enjoy something I don´t/can't!! I don't like it, you must not have it!".
Please come up with something more coherent next time.Edited by DDuke on September 29, 2014 4:33PM5 -
Kewljag_66_ESO✭✭✭✭✭See while that is great for you your describing a single player game connected online . That what the questing and alts etc do and that is great but it won't hold the MMO fans particular the ex WoW who came here for a change.
Trials are not end game to me . They were linear stack and shoot encounters and racing is only good for the very elite however the elite have always cared about real progression.
PvP is not end game it's just another game within a game.
End game is max level content that has progression built into it to ensure that people are engage for a year or two.
As for 'upcoming' where is the upcoming vet dungeon . Upcoming wont keep me subbed sorry
Actually the Cyrodiil PVP endgame is what this whole game is built around, It is very similiar to Dark Age of Camelot's system, you are basically building and leveling a character with the purpose to defend and fight for your alliance for land in the Cyrdiil PVP endgame. Once you obtain your max level and best gear it is all about getting the 50 alliance ranks, Which will take years. Hopefully they do add a progression system to it so so we can keep improving our characters. Dark age of Camelot added realm ranks which gave you points to buy better stats, abilities, resists, crit, hit points and so on, it let you keep building your character for years.
Just because WoW was a PVE game with a PVP mini game inside of it does not mean every game works like that. You could alsmost say ESO works in the opposite way and thats what alot of people want5 -
Xeres14✭✭✭Ugh. Again with this notion that ESO is some unique MMO. Really? At what point? The quests, experience point, leveling, skill point and attribute system which is what a vast majority of this game is based around? Hardly. So where is it unique? The skill bars that are reminiscent of GW2 and DCUO? The dodging system similar to GW2. The blocking that I saw in Champions Online? This game isn't as unique as some may seem. But yet, here's where the line should be drawn to keep ESO to remain "different".
But here's another point - talking about pressure to do end game content. I never experienced this in WoW so I cannot say what pressure that is. I did a lot of end game there - some pretty casual, some more progression oriented. But I never felt pressured to do it. Thing is, it's your $14.99. You don't HAVE to do end game content if you choose not to.Edited by Xeres14 on September 29, 2014 4:43PM1 -
Thechemicals✭✭✭✭✭you sir are an internet bully.Vr14 Templar since release- dual resto
Vr14 Dk bow/2h
Brayan Blackthunder
Goddick
Daggerfall Covenant0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »Just because WoW was a PVE game with a PVP mini game inside of it does not mean every game works like that. You could alsmost say ESO works in the opposite way and thats what alot of people want
ESO is too ambiguous. A proper PvP game lets you take PvP quests at level 1 and lets you level up, gear up and craft exclusively staying in the (usually huge and not isolated / instanced) PvP area. More hybrid PvP games give PvE quests to quickly get to max level but then it's the PvP rank that counts. PvE levels are fast to get, PvP is where the real game is at.
In ESO you have so much PvE, you have a whole PvE single player intellectual property augmenting it, you spend weeks and weeks going long questing (not "PvE quickies to get to max level fast").
In ESO there are trials.
All these factors really drive PvE oriented players in. Of course they don't want to be told: "well it was a marketing trick to get you in, now shut up and PvP!".
So, now, they are expecting more PvE.Edited by Vahrokh on September 29, 2014 5:13PMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭
ESO is too ambiguous. A proper PvP game lets you take PvP quests at level 1 and lets you level up, gear up and craft exclusively staying in the (usually huge and not isolated / instanced) PvP area. More hybrid PvP games give PvE quests to quickly get to max level but then it's the PvP rank that counts. PvE levels are fast to get, PvP is where the real game is at.
In ESO you have so much PvE, you have a whole PvE single player intellectual property augmenting it, you spend weeks and weeks going long questing (not "PvE quickies to get to max level fast").
In ESO there are trials.
All these factors really drive PvE oriented players in. Of course they don't want to be told: "well it was a marketing trick to get you in, now shut up and PvP!".
So, now, they are expecting more PvE.
To be fair you can PVP at level 10 in TESO but I agree with you on the whole 'ambiguous' thing, it started as a PVP only game then PVE was addes and since launch it feels like the whole game is being stretched in different directions depending on the amount of noise on the forums and who is making the loudest1 -
Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭
Link please?
"In the Champion system, we will have more gear introduced by seasons where there is no level requirement. They will be harder to get. Season 8 gear will be more powerful than season 7 gear for example but the season 7 gear will be more readily available. There will be a solution for crafting as well."
- Paul Sage, QuakeCon
So what are you and Stratti even complaining about? The gear grind is coming. That quote says that. Discussion over. WoW-style endgame is coming.
And I thought cloning was illegal....0 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭
So what are you and Stratti even complaining about? The gear grind is coming. That quote says that. Discussion over. WoW-style endgame is coming.
And I thought cloning was illegal....
Yep
I just hope they never cave in on the whole HUD rage..... at least that!0 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I don't know on your server, but in order to accept anyone in my (or other similar guild) they had to prove themselves with some of our members. In example, an awesome Arms warrior would obliterate people in PvP. I took him as DPS, I did not even ask him to change spec, and he would perform like a pro in our raids. Same for healers. The average quality was terrible but when we did instances on our alts and met the few awesome guys, we hired them at once.
I find myself liking every other post you do.....then a few more I don't like. Then you BAM BAM BAM and postm outright wonderful words.
*scratch*
WoW even as new...well, after 6-8 months when the fekin servers was up for more then a day, I was ORC WARRIOR. Protection! YA!
Warriors was not much to look at in the start. Good tanks, sure! You as a druid...no one looked at you for tanking right? I can't recall....1 year in or something. Barktree....or what the hell that druid thing did that BENCHED me from tanking! Fekin druid.......
In EQ, we had an invite process that was 100% written application and the recruit did not get a guild tag for 2-4 weeks. They did earn DKP, but could not bid against members. LOVED IT!
I had my own guild, which still is there today.
Broke Time before "patch" (nerf) and waking Sleeper was one of the most fun thing we did! Hot damn we where hated! Lol!
OR......was it Vex Thal, when we couldn't be arsed to clear all that trash (4 hours), and...Cogo (Lizard monk...that's me!), said to 50 raiders.....DASH FOR D2 NOW!
50 Raiding muppets dashing with a train from god up to D2. And Biktin (Cleric), has 2 SECONDS left on logging.....when he was the last one killed.
Hah! Our site still got the news we did!
http://ad.rebelhq.org/index.php?content=newsarchive&news=20
I played from start, but got a bit hard after 2 years to raid with americans from 11pm to 5 am, then work at 7 am ;-). I was so young!
I was on Eci, then moved with Dark Horizon, to Zeborouruk.
I started a new guild with just 2 friends on Venril Sathir, which was the EU server.
Pretty much like ESO, picked up people as I played and we got more and more.
I STILL recall the RUSH when Avatar of War went down!
http://ad.rebelhq.org/index.php?content=newsarchive&news=15
I can NEVER, EVER forgot when we got to Plane of Time. Not cause of Time!
Which was awesome! But beating Rallos Zek.....geez!
And.....Rathe Counsil.... not only was it our guild, with 72 raiders I was leading.
We already killed them once, and keyed most members, but needed more PoE keys. (to get all 4, to get into PoT)
I led a Coop raid with another guild, with 72 people. 2 x 72!!! Coordinating and fek knows what. No voice chat! No Raid "tabs". We had a raid channel! That was it.
I never in my life had a headache sooooo long after that!
But we did it....before any nerf.
http://ad.rebelhq.org/index.php?content=newsarchive&news=26
And, Biktin, who's in the ESO guild now btw. Was quite cool in doing news updates. Look at this one when we nailed rallos Zek. Not the plane of time one....
http://ad.rebelhq.org/index.php?content=newsarchive&news=23
Meh!! You got me thinking of EQ! I been seaching for EQ for soooo long.
ESO is not EQ. Its a ....new...and the most interesting so far.
But I agree, Everquest raids, you can not messure any MMO raids with. Nothing comes close to that sort of "events". well....Maybe rift.Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"0 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭The truth is that WoW has no end game because good guilds clear the "difficult" stuff within a month of its release, farm up gear for a month, then unsub and wait a year and a half for the next content patch.
ESO's problem is bug related, performance related, class balance related, and that there's no real way to solo level from VR10-14.
The content is there, the Trials, the Veteran Dungeons, Cyrodiil, it just doesn't work all that well right now.........because the game itself doesn't run well, isn't balanced well, and the lack of rewards for the Cadwell's Silver and Gold is just straight up sad........complete every quest in every zone and you get........
<fart>
Most people don't know that WoW's content is so hard, that the top PVE guild in the world doesn't even feel compelled to use Vent, TS, or Mumble........at all.........Edited by Pmarsico9 on September 29, 2014 5:46PM1 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭
HUD rage? Please elaborate.
The whole "the UI is horrible" rage.
I understand that menus could be improved but I really like the HUD and it's very 'TES'3 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
✭To put it simply, the problem with ESO raids is that it is more difficult (too difficult/impossible, some would say) to design challenging encounters for smaller groups and also that there is little to no incentive to do or repeat this content.
The UI/Add-on support also hinders precision gameplay, but that's an issue when you actually get to a place where your players need that precise of tools.
My suggestion would be to go forward with 24 man raids in the future, make them difficult, and make them drop rewards that are worth putting the time and effort into doing this content in the first place.3 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭There was an interesting academic paper on MMORPGs doing the rounds a while back. Can't find the link tho...
One of the points was that frustration with an MMORPG, as many have come to define the term (or rather, refine what they expect from the 'experience'). was less to do with the lack of 'end game' but rather, the lack of 'end'.
The proposal was for there to be a definite 'end' to the MMORPG experience within a given game. Your win! Your character gets retired. Job done.
Closure. Finality. The player is now free to roll an alt or move on to the next game, which is often preferable than having them hang around on forums and elsewhere, complaining.
I find the idea fascinating though I'm sure many would be horrified with the notion.
With regards to ESO, I'd be quite happy to have my character hit retirement at a level cap. My retired character could provide bonuses to my new alt as well as providing a crafting base. Have them become an NPC in my own private instance, one accessible to guild members.
All said and done, it'd mean I'd have to choose to re-engage with the product and re-evaluate my spending each month in relation to it. If it was too much I'd simply stop, find another game or activity to entertain myself. If I was still prepared to make the investment then I'd do so, knowing full well what I was signing up for and, ideally, with minimal complaint.
EDIT: TypoEdited by Two-Dogs on September 29, 2014 6:33PM2 -
Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭There was an interesting academic paper on MMORPGs doing the rounds a while back. Can't find the link tho...
One of the points was that frustration with an MMORPG, as many have come to define the term (or rather, refine what they expect from the 'experience'). was less to do with the lack of 'end game' but rather, the lack of 'end'.
The proposal was for there to be a definite 'end' to the MMORPG experience within a given game. Your win! Your character gets retired. Job done.
Closure. Finality. The player is now free to roll an alt or move on to the next game, which is often preferable than having them hang around on forums and elsewhere, complaining.
I find the idea fascinating though I'm sure many would be horrified with the notion.
With regards to ESO, I'd be quite happy to have my character hit retirement at a level cap. My retired character could provide bonuses to my new alt as well as providing a crafting base. Have them become an NPC in my own private instance, one accessible to guild members.
All said and done, it'd mean I'd have to choose to re-engage with the product and re-evaluate my spending each month in relation to it. If it was too much I'd simply stop, find another game or activity to entertain myself. If I was still prepared to make the investment then I'd do so, knowing full well what I was signing up for and, ideally, with minimal complaint.
EDIT: Typo
I like this a lot. But I guess that's what single player non-mmos are for. MMOs aren't supposed to end. So it become more of a personal decision as to when someone feels they've done enough.
The problem for me with MMOs is that I never can get to end game because they keep moving the goal posts back. I just can't play the game as much as the "racers". So hardcore gamers ruin it for me. They get there in 2 days, complain, complain, complain, and then the devs respond by increasing the level cap. Usually the content is nothing really new. So it just becomes a grind. I guess some people like that repetition, but not me. At least give me a new and interesting story line.
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Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Most people don't know that WoW's content is so hard, that the top PVE guild in the world doesn't even feel compelled to use Vent, TS, or Mumble........at all.........
Do you know those guys? Because I used to and played with their alts on my server.
They did not avoid using voice com because it was easy, but because they get so accustomed to each other that it's like being famous rock stars: they know the notes by memory, they don't need a director because they know each breath the other does and when.
That's the nirvana of raiding, when your group is so tight you don't even need to communicate any more.
Now stop making me get memories, I get a knot in the throat at thinking how good were those times vs what we have now.
Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO1 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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I'm going to have to disagree wholeheartedly with this paper, at least if it's proposing that "hardcore" players feel this way.There was an interesting academic paper on MMORPGs doing the rounds a while back. Can't find the link tho...
One of the points was that frustration with an MMORPG, as many have come to define the term (or rather, refine what they expect from the 'experience'). was less to do with the lack of 'end game' but rather, the lack of 'end'.
The proposal was for there to be a definite 'end' to the MMORPG experience within a given game. Your win! Your character gets retired. Job done.
Closure. Finality. The player is now free to roll an alt or move on to the next game, which is often preferable than having them hang around on forums and elsewhere, complaining.
I believe a better thesis is that hardcore players want milestones. They want to beat the "current" end game, rest on their laurels for a bit (perhaps be able to use the rewards to overpower other players, a la vanilla WoW), and then be posed with new challenges to beat until they are sick of this particular game.0 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭MMOs aren't supposed to end.
I believe this would be an example of players defining the convention, almost 'tyranny of the genre'. The noun MMORPG shouldn't determine the style of game but should be used as a tool to describe a style of game. It may not seem like there's no difference there but there is - and an important one.
Outside of player expectation, that has been nurtured over the years by designers, all an MMORPG really needs to be/have to satisfy the the term MMORPG, is the provision of a platform that supports a 'massive' number of players and provides the opportunity for role for playing*.
Granted, few MMORPGs are designed, from the ground up, to facilitate roleplaying, preferring to support 'roll-playing', which is as valid a form of entertainment as any other.
Still, many of the elements that digital role-play games (and digital role-players) choose to assign to the genre are elements that traditional role-play game design was attempting to move away from. For example, character sheets, 'immersion-breaking' stat tracking and rail-road quest design. There's some excellent articles from Dragon Magazine (a magazine published to support pen&paper role-players back when TSR were calling the shots) that tackled the subject.
Anyway, back to ESO/end game. The frustration you describe from having the 'goal posts' move is a good example of why an 'end' may be a desirable evolution of the MMORPG game, as many now perceive it. If an end existed you would finally be able to finish the game - at least with one character - and enjoy the sense of closure that comes with it.
It's important to note that an 'end' doesn't have to mean an end of playing the game, simply an end to the progression/adventure of one of the players characters. In my example I attempted to demonstrate that a player is still free to re-engage with the game through playing an alt (..and, in theory, by managing the now-NPC-finished character.)
Anyway, we're talking about a restructuring of what an MMORPG means to many players who have grown up with a singular MMORPG experience so it's no wonder that they have trouble envisioning an alternative. There's also the spikey argument of how an industry seeks to promote entertainment-dependency, rather than educate and empower gamers to entertain themselves.
The paper had much more to say on the subject and it's a shame I can't dig it up and link it. If I could, I would.
Edit: Oh, the typos.Edited by Two-Dogs on September 29, 2014 10:40PM1
