No End Game = No MMO
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
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Thechemicals✭✭✭✭✭Arena and new trials not endgame?Vr14 Templar since release- dual resto
Vr14 Dk bow/2h
Brayan Blackthunder
Goddick
Daggerfall Covenant2 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭Too bad, hard core raiders are NOT after "gear treadmills" at all.
They are after ACHIEVEMENT. The gear is just an useful badge. It's also a "developers acknowledgement for the efforts spent at completing their content" and this is why raiders can feel the rewards suck when they do suck.
Of course. Gear awarded for achieving something that empowers players to progress onto new content where in new gear is awarded for achieving something to progress onto new content - and so on - is not a gear treadmill.
Ok.0 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭Just for the record, I'm not saying that a gear treadmill equates to a 'bad' gaming experience. If folks enjoy it, all the more power to them.
Raiders want to be presented with challenging content that rewards them with superior items. They want to take months to clear this content to show just how challenging it was and how good they are for beating it. They want to finish sets of these superior items, take a small break (perhaps be able to benefit from their powerful equipment in other aspects of the game), and then start over with a new raid that requires the items they got in the previous raid to even kill the first boss.
Definitely not a treadmill?
This to me describes an escalation of rewards for completing content that provides rewards that supports the completion of new content, which can be repeated ad infinitum or at least until all the content has been completed and all the gear has been acquired. At which time, developers must either inject new content and rewards to keep the machine running or not and suffer the rage of disgruntled gamers.
Call me crazy but I wouldn't want the later - there' s enough moaning as there is. Which leaves us with new content having to be continuously injected into the game.
On and on.
Granted we may have different definitions of 'gear treadmill' - it's a mutable term, and slang at that. For me though, a treadmill never ends - there is literally no end to the journey on a treadmill, thanks to its design.
Still, what you're describing - unless you're willing to engage with an actual 'end' to the end game - results in an (some might say, 'ideally') never-ending journey, one where gear leads to content that leads to gear that leads to content.
Hence my choice of the term, 'gear treadmill'.
Edit: Stunned into typos.Edited by Two-Dogs on September 30, 2014 3:05PM1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just for the record, I'm not saying that a gear treadmill equates to a 'bad' gaming experience. If folks enjoy it, all the more power to them.
Definitely not a treadmill?
Very hideous of yours, to falsify my name with text written by somebody else:Maverick827 wrote: »Again, these pseudo-science papers about MMO raiders are just so far off from every hard core raider I've ever known.
Raiders want to be presented with challenging content that rewards them with superior items. They want to take months to clear this content to show just how challenging it was and how good they are for beating it. They want to finish sets of these superior items, take a small break (perhaps be able to benefit from their powerful equipment in other aspects of the game), and then start over with a new raid that requires the items they got in the previous raid to even kill the first boss.
Since you apparently won't correctly quote people let me do that for you:I have been very hard core raider for years (in First 10 Worldwide Kills guilds) and have done up to 40 men raids with a lot of interest. So it is very painful for me to say "No".
Imo ESO has a lore, a philosophy centered on the "Epic group of 4-5 heroes" or "Company of [Epic Name]". Something closer to Tolkien relatively small and tight protagonist groups than to the "armies" of somewhat faceless team mates.
Also, the era of huge raids is over, the playerbase has changed and tends to have less "continuous span" time for these activities, beginning with me.
Finally, those kinds of raids come almost naturally with gear and stats inflation and historically this has a bad effect on PvP and also on "outdoor PvE".
Yes PvE too, because a kitted raider can solo the impossible so the developers have to either see those raiders complain how content is super-easy AND "normal players" complaining raiders are insta-killing everything and leave them nothing OR the developers would make outdoor PvE too difficult for all but those raiders.
Bolded my replies to you, anticipated more than two months ago.
By calling it gear treadmill you put a lot of emphasis on the "gear" word.
There is a subtle difference between "tag along raider" who is really after getting better gear to "own in PvP" or whatever and the "committed raider" aka hardcore who gets gear as byproduct not as focus.
I have played for 5 years in a pure PvP game, when I reached RR100 and the best possible gear I kept playing. Gear was a byproduct, my objective was to become one of the top killers on ther server. To make people pee in their pants just knowing I was in their same zone.
Gear just came by.
Same in GW2, small scale PvP with a small group of ours killing zergs with hit and run attacks, there was no gear superiority but feeling of winning against the odds.
The fact many MMOs cater to the majority, that is baddies who need gear to play for them and thus indeed implement "gear treadmills", does not touch an hard core gamer.
As you can read in my real quote, I don't personally give a damn about gear and "gear progression".
It's just that current MMOs SUCK HARD BALLS and in their rush to copy and paste trite concepts, they embrace the path of least resistence, that is gear treadmills.
I am a backer of Trials Of Ascention, a super hard core, permanent death MMO. That's how much I want to achieve, and - at the same time - how much I care about gear.Edited by Vahrokh on September 30, 2014 3:35PMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
temjiu✭✭✭✭I agree with the OP. not in the exact same ways...but one of the things that is missing for many is a visible progression line for character performance.
I know that some players don't want the "gear gateway", but many current MMO's have provided options to smooth players who don't want it into content that needs it very seamlessly. other MMO's have learned to add multiple options to end game, rather then shoehorning a player into a linear role. ESO chose the shoehorn option, and we saw the results of that. mass exodus of players, with ESO scrambling to find a way to keep the boat afloat.
it's simply silly to ignore the experience of other MMO developers when it comes to end game progression. While it doesn't need to mirror WoW exclusively...its suicide to ignore the steps an MMO has taken that have proven successful. Especially when ESO has proven that its initial approach failed so miserably.
There's nothing wrong with multiple options. I would love daily quests to run solo...some perps think it's stupid...others love to have something to do while they chat with friends and slowly watch their progression grow.
offering tokens or cash as rewards for dailies quests is a tried and true solution to solo progression. group progression offers the tokens in a faster format, with the newest gear only found in the actual high end group content. it works, it pulls in a huge audience, and its repeatable.
It also offers ways to get high end players into lower areas. make some dailies based on the lower level regions. collection quests, or scaling level monster spawns. it's a window of opportunity for Dev's to add in a ton of flexible PvE content with less effort. repeatable = daily involvement. non-repeatable = linear game play with an END. a game with an END does not pull in subscriptions once that END is reached.
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
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Too bad, hard core raiders are NOT after "gear treadmills" at all.
They are after ACHIEVEMENT. The gear is just an useful badge. It's also a "developers acknowledgement for the efforts spent at completing their content" and this is why raiders can feel the rewards suck when they do suck.
Totally agree. Then again, what better achievement than knowing your actions made a real, lasting impact on the game in a non linear time-line? ^^.1 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Really nice to see peoples views of ESO. Users I havn't seen here before.
Right or wrong about ESO doesn't matter, as long as you discuss it and prompt don't lock your ear and goes "lalalalal", when proof stares you in the face.
Hello all new people! :-)
Notice how "new" users here, have opinions about ESO, and quite gladly ask, share, agree/disagree, just like any discussion.
Still amazing how some of the oldies here, have played so much, but know so little, can't not grasp what discussions are.
@Vahrokh
I've been checking your old post and stalking you a bit. I hate some and love some, but I can not find ONE post of yours where you claim anything without backing it up. Even a few, where you "stand corrected", but still hold on to your idea.
Could you teach that to the rest of the "Elite ESO End game only" players?
Something as fundamental that ESO is made to never end and will keep releasing content for the whole of Tamriel....seams impossible to show, since my links and quotes are "wrong", and I'm not allowed to speak because I am not max level?
(I am level 50, been for months)
Maybe showing 10 links from Zenimax, isn't the way to reach our brothers who been here since launch?
Think the award for 2014 best MMO by JOYSTICK (Who claimed ESO F2P in may) would work?
Or other sites who change their mind and welcome ESO since "It was a new experience when we tried it 5 months later"?
I'm happy to be proven wrong btw!!!! :-)Edited by Cogo on September 30, 2014 5:14PMOghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"3 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭
Sorry about the misquote and I agree with your points (though perhaps not your manner of expressing them!). Of course, as you... eloquently put (!!) - the current model leaves a lot to be desired.
The current MMORPG design does look to cater to one selection of the gaming populace. While they're play time is as important as anyone elses, I too would prefer other section of the player base's needs being addressed.
I too enjoy PvP, my favourite PvP game of all time being Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike and I too value an engaging mechanic that rewards skill over gear-empowerment. Personally I'd normalise gear in ESO's PvP to bring the focus back to skill and strategy. Still, different folks for different folks.
Edit: Still fumbling with the quote tags.
Edited by Two-Dogs on September 30, 2014 5:17PM0 -
Dont Shoot✭✭whyt does everyone want this game to be a new WoW. WoW is WoW go play WoW.
I HATE the gear system in WoW. it rewards freaks of nature that play 15 hours a day.
You wanna keep up in ESO be good at the game. End of story.
my Dad played UO and he says no game has come as close to that game as Elder Scrolls online.
I hate WoW if Elder Scrolls because some poor rip off of WoW then I think there'd be a quick surge in sales and then a total drop off cause WoW does WoW best. This game actually feels like an Elder Scrolls game to me and I love it. dont change a thing.
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Two-Dogs✭✭✭Dont Shoot wrote: »whyt does everyone want this game to be a new WoW.
I don't think they do. Actually, I can safely assure you they don't. Some do - and it's not so much 'to be like WoW' but to feature an aspect of game play that WoW refined over its years of development, i.e raiding.
They're entitled to their wants as much as other players are entitled to having the particular slice of gaming action catered to.
Personally I'd reward them with cosmetic items to isolate the impact farming PvE content for gear rewards can have on PvP but... well, we're already experiencing a game where 'gear richer' players enjoy an advantage over gear poor players in PvP. We might say it's part of the angst we see expressed on these forums when level (and thus item) brackets are increased. Some folks need to have best toys to succeed/feel confident in PvP!
Edit: ClarificationEdited by Two-Dogs on September 30, 2014 5:23PM2 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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15 hours a day = ~5 hours at night for ~3 days out of the week?Dont Shoot wrote: »whyt does everyone want this game to be a new WoW. WoW is WoW go play WoW.
I HATE the gear system in WoW. it rewards freaks of nature that play 15 hours a day.
You wanna keep up in ESO be good at the game. End of story.
my Dad played UO and he says no game has come as close to that game as Elder Scrolls online.
I hate WoW if Elder Scrolls because some poor rip off of WoW then I think there'd be a quick surge in sales and then a total drop off cause WoW does WoW best. This game actually feels like an Elder Scrolls game to me and I love it. dont change a thing.0 -
ErykGrimm✭✭✭The most rewarding end game stuff typically comes from my hirelings. On a more serious note, game population is and has been in decline of late. My friends list rarely has more than a couple people online. Coming from beta, the game has gotten more bland with each patch and pvp is a chore I don't even bother to participate in anymore. Even if you are afraid of the game changing, you have to admit something has to be done to retain players. Unless you can get a private server or something. Cause a lot of you people may end up playing by yourselves. Telling people to go play another game is doing Zenimax any favors either.0 -
Stratti✭✭✭✭✭The you dont have to play the game argument is hilarious. I am invested in the game insofar as I will check in to see if they have moved in the right direction in Update 4 but ultimately I dont see myself rejoining. The reason is the next game on my radar Beyond Earth looks awesome for me and isnt an MMO.
Truth is when a ESO player quits they may quit the entire genre (me). So this is very dangerous thing for ESO to allow.
Gear Grind is perhaps something that has confused me as an argument against an end game. All the features these people love would still be there they just wouldnt have access to gear that the 'gear grinders' have. This is appropriate as a reward for effort. What I really see between the lines is certain casuals like that there isnt a real difference between them and others.
Final point I want to make is that the success of an online environment is determined by the 'champions' of the game. ESO does not really allow for this. I remember Kungen who was the world best tank according to gear and progression and showed heaps of videos in the Burning Crusade. We loved to hear how the guild Nihilum where doing and their feats were amazing. This enhanced the community. Casuals make up the numbers but the elite players actually create the vibe in the community.
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Stratti✭✭✭✭✭Dont Shoot wrote: »whyt does everyone want this game to be a new WoW. WoW is WoW go play WoW.
I HATE the gear system in WoW. it rewards freaks of nature that play 15 hours a day.
You wanna keep up in ESO be good at the game. End of story.
my Dad played UO and he says no game has come as close to that game as Elder Scrolls online.
I hate WoW if Elder Scrolls because some poor rip off of WoW then I think there'd be a quick surge in sales and then a total drop off cause WoW does WoW best. This game actually feels like an Elder Scrolls game to me and I love it. dont change a thing.
Do you know what this thread is about. Just because people give examples of how wow did it well (7-10yrs ago) noone has bothered to update you on how they messed everything up.
This game was promised as an MMO with lots of content. It has not delivered sadly for me and many many others . We still care but I have unsubbed because of it and would love to see this improved so I can return1 -
Ragefist✭✭✭✭Wow. Nine pages and it all basically boils down to people who like the gear progression and people who dont, everyone repeating his points over and over. With few complaining about lack of content to add some flavour, but those can be safely ignored. In mmo games there are always people complaining about it.
Well, all this seems pointless discussion. If you watched the quakecon presentation you would know it is inevitable. Its a part of tue Champion system. Veteran ranks are going away, gear progression coming in2 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Blackhorne wrote: »See, the reason there's no end game in this game is that the game doesn't end -- not even for the developers.
This. MMOs don't have end-games, because the developers want folks to keep paying subscriptions.
Want an end-game? Play a single-player RPG.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"3 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭
Exactly. That is why it became so popular back in the days, it appealed to all player types and kept them around with fantastic (rewarding) end game.
BC was also fantastic. When they killed class uniqueness, the game lost legions of hardcore RPG players.2 -
Helwyr✭✭Truth is when a ESO player quits they may quit the entire genre (me). So this is very dangerous thing for ESO to allow.
Gear Grind is perhaps something that has confused me as an argument against an end game. All the features these people love would still be there they just wouldnt have access to gear that the 'gear grinders' have. This is appropriate as a reward for effort. What I really see between the lines is certain casuals like that there isnt a real difference between them and others.
It isn't only casuals that object to your "reward" wishes. As I've said earlier in this thread no one would object to the "gear that the 'gear grinders' have IF that gear only benefited players within the content type in which it was attained. A lot of players want no part in PvE raid/group content. Further rapid vertical character/gear progression is very detrimental to the PvP game in general.Truth is when a ESO player quits they may quit the entire genre (me). So this is very dangerous thing for ESO to allow.
Lots of players have already quit ESO, many of whom quit because they disliked the things you like that have been added recently to ESO. The truth is people play MMORPGs for a multiple of reasons many of which are antagonistic to one another.Final point I want to make is that the success of an online environment is determined by the 'champions' of the game. ESO does not really allow for this. I remember Kungen who was the world best tank according to gear and progression and showed heaps of videos in the Burning Crusade. We loved to hear how the guild Nihilum where doing and their feats were amazing. This enhanced the community. Casuals make up the numbers but the elite players actually create the vibe in the community.
That's what makes an MMO a success for you (and those like you, not everyone). Most real casuals aren't really concerned or even aware of stuff like that. For myself I can't name anyone who "achieved" anything PvE related, PvE by it's very nature is bland and non eventful with little to claim as a real achievement. On the other hand I can name clans/guilds/corps and some of their leaders that shaped entire game servers in more sandbox type MMOs. When there's something more substantial to both gain and lose, some real stakes in the balance a game gets a little more real and therefore more memorable.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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It isn't only casuals that object to your "reward" wishes. As I've said earlier in this thread no one would object to the "gear that the 'gear grinders' have IF that gear only benefited players within the content type in which it was attained. A lot of players want no part in PvE raid/group content. Further rapid vertical character/gear progression is very detrimental to the PvP game in general.
You speak as if the population was black & white. That is to say, there were only 2 kinds of people, "PvE" and "PvP". What you fail to realize is, that there are a lot of people interested in both aspects of the game, who would love to use their strong PvP gear in PvE and vice versa, without having their "Mace of Molag Bal" or "Mehrune's Razor" suddenly become a useless piece of junk. How would getting that sword feel rewarding at all?
Secondly, I dont get your point about vertical character/gear progression being detrimental to PvP, when PvP is already unbalanced (and will always be in an MMO).
You are fighting with uneven numbers against opponents of different skill levels & different builds. Strong gear can strengthen weak builds and it can weaken strong builds, and if gated behind something that requires player skill, it would actually balance PvP.
Lots of players have already quit ESO, many of whom quit because they disliked the things you like that have been added recently to ESO. The truth is people play MMORPGs for a multiple of reasons many of which are antagonistic to one another.
Yes, if you fail to please the end game PvErs, they quit. If you fail to please the PvPers, they quit. I don't see ZOS doing a good job with either at the moment.
Business tip: you don't want to drive your customers away, you want to keep them.
That's what makes an MMO a success for you (and those like you, not everyone). Most real casuals aren't really concerned or even aware of stuff like that. For myself I can't name anyone who "achieved" anything PvE related, PvE by it's very nature is bland and non eventful with little to claim as a real achievement. On the other hand I can name clans/guilds/corps and some of their leaders that shaped entire game servers in more sandbox type MMOs. When there's something more substantial to both gain and lose, some real stakes in the balance a game gets a little more real and therefore more memorable.
I get it, you're a PvP player who wants a PvP only game. Have you ever even tried end game PvE? When beating that content is difficult, it is an achievement by the very definition.
"When there's something more substantial to both gain and lose, some real stakes in the balance a game gets a little more real and therefore more memorable"
I totally agree. What is there to gain or lose at the moment, in ESO? I'd like you to think about that. (Hint: nothing)3 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭This has to be your first MMO. We get updates almost every 6 weeks with more stuff. Do you expect Skyrim where people/third parties make addons for the game thus constantly changing it? That's not how an MMO works. So far ESO has had more content at a faster pace than basically any other MMO I have played. Perhaps you should of played different alts to 50 instead of taking one straight through all VR levels. There are a ton of dungeons and other stuff to do in the game plus PvP. It's like you're comparing a games endgame from something that has been out for years and saying ESO doesn't have enough even though it's been out a fraction of the time. Sorry, but I do not sympathize with you.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »This has to be your first MMO. We get updates almost every 6 weeks with more stuff. Do you expect Skyrim where people/third parties make addons for the game thus constantly changing it? That's not how an MMO works. So far ESO has had more content at a faster pace than basically any other MMO I have played. Perhaps you should of played different alts to 50 instead of taking one straight through all VR levels. There are a ton of dungeons and other stuff to do in the game plus PvP. It's like you're comparing a games endgame from something that has been out for years and saying ESO doesn't have enough even though it's been out a fraction of the time. Sorry, but I do not sympathize with you.
Nope, not my first MMO
The problem isn't the lack of content, of which there is plenty.
The problem is lack of replayability.
Once you've done something once, there's nothing rewarding that makes you do it again, which you would know if you had read previous posts on this thread.
I've been emperor in PvP (which I got as VR2) & spent a lot of time there (we're talking about 1000+ hours), I've done every single quest & dungeon in the game and I'm standing at 12535 achievement points. Also I have 3 alts, one is lvl 37, another lvl 14 & one lvl 4. So you're yet again very wrong with your assumptions
Please read previous posts in the thread if you want to find out what the problem is with end game in ESO (I'd start with the OP)1 -
Helwyr✭✭You speak as if the population was black & white. That is to say, there were only 2 kinds of people, "PvE" and "PvP". What you fail to realize is, that there are a lot of people interested in both aspects of the game, who would love to use their strong PvP gear in PvE and vice versa, without having their "Mace of Molag Bal" or "Mehrune's Razor" suddenly become a useless piece of junk. How would getting that sword feel rewarding at all?
I don't fail to realize this, what your not seeing or admitting to is that what your suggesting means anyone that wants to PvP and remain statistically competitive must do the VR and group PvE content. Being that you do both high level PvE and Cyrodiil you know the two are far from equal in gaining VR. Further more if you add better rewards to things like Trials as you've repeatably called for here that also work in Cyrodiil the power balance becomes even more ridiculous in so much as you either become a PvE raider or you might as well not play.
The difference between the way you seem to want the game to work and I do in regard to PvP is pretty black and white.
You want a Themepark "end game" of constant character gear vertical progression through raid style PvE that has a significant impact on your character's strength in PvP. Essentially the EQ/WoW model.
I want a Hybrid model for ESO where you PvE through the main story and develop your character. Then post 50 the game is focused on PvP and crafting, if there's any character progression beyond this point that impacts PvP it should be largely horizontal (ie further specializing your character not increasing the characters overall power). Essentially the classic DAoC model (minus TOA).
The sticking point which makes our two positions completely incompatible is your desire for PvE raiding to be a determining factor in PvP outcome. That's also what puts you firmly in the PvE camp, despite your participation in PvP.Yes, if you fail to please the end game PvErs, they quit. If you fail to please the PvPers, they quit. I don't see ZOS doing a good job with either at the moment.
Business tip: you don't want to drive your customers away, you want to keep them.
I agree, but the only solution to keeping both types of players is to isolate both types of play so that neither is needed to be able to do the other. Otherwise, Zenimax has to pick a side, and frankly while they'll never openly state it, I believe they've picked yours, PvE, but just haven't fully committed to it yet.I get it, you're a PvP player who wants a PvP only game. Have you ever even tried end game PvE? When beating that content is difficult, it is an achievement by the very definition.
If I wanted a PvP only game I'd be asking for open PvP everywhere and player looting like a UO, Shadowbane, Darkfall type game. That's not what I asked for because I had no expectation that ESO would be like those games. I did however expect it to be more like DAoC than PvE focused games like WoW/EQ which I would never play.
...and yes I had two characters that got through all the TOA garbage in DAoC. never again!
As to PvE as an achievement... if I go out into the back yard and collect 10 000 pebbles or blades of grass one at a time is that an achievement or is it just a very wasteful expenditure of my time? ..and if I do it with 3 friends or the whole street does it make the activity any more meaningful or worthy of some sort of reward? That's my view of PvE as an achievement.
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Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Final point I want to make is that the success of an online environment is determined by the 'champions' of the game. ESO does not really allow for this. I remember Kungen who was the world best tank according to gear and progression and showed heaps of videos in the Burning Crusade. We loved to hear how the guild Nihilum where doing and their feats were amazing. This enhanced the community. Casuals make up the numbers but the elite players actually create the vibe in the community.
Kungen played when I played, our guild and his had friends in common and I was personally a friend of their lead feral druid (who was muuuuch more skilled tham me
), we'd hang out in the afternoons in their IRC chat and would exchange ideas and create alts to meet and even to play alts with alts.
Kungen was not the best geared tank in the world.
He was the best tank in the world who by consequence also had the best gear.
If you'd give him a greens geared tank alt, he'd probably humiliate most tanks in epics.
And he needed that gear. I don't know if it's known, but the world first (and at least the top 10-20) involves playing against heavily overtuned and bugged bosses. There were some epically broken bosses in TBC, expecially the last ones in Coilfang Reservoir who costed us endless attempts just because their scripts were utterly broken (not just in ESO ). Guild mates would grind pots for hours just to be ready to super spam them in raid. Us tanks would receive super-priority on enchantments, recipes useful to our job and drops. Simply because we were directly on the receiving end of those bugged and overtuned bosses.
Also, at those levels, tanking is vastly, VASTLY more than having the best gear or even the best hands coordination.
By example, the best main tanks talk with the most appropriate authority and tone of voice during the raids. They have a sublime situation awareness. They call tank switches knowing exactly which abilities the boss(es) have just done and knowing when the killer boss abilities were on cooldown.
They know how to deal with a partial wipe and maintain a calm voice and clear awareness in emergence (I suck at both
).
All of this is Kungen. Actually, at the apex of the best times, voice becomes superfluous and everybody knows what to do and when on a silent voice comm, in auto-pilot. But first you HAVE to go through all that inner growth to get up there.
Only BADS see "gear, gear, gear". Pull up a piece of gear off their body and under it you see nothing.
I do agree that such kind of players is what makes a MMO succeed. Not because of their gear but because they are leaders and the masses love to follow leaders. Even in our "nameless" guild competing for the top 10, we'd be an example to the whole server. The other guilds tried to emulate us. The best outside players put a ton of effort to impress us (and eventually join). It's a process that on the long term helps the server be alive and improve over time.
ESO in this respect is a game without heroes, without paragons. If nobody cares to consistently be world first, if nobody cares to build a social powerhouse (Nihilum was that and more, including sponsors) all you have is a game for people with no ambition, no burning desire for achievement.
A game with no leaders, attracts many, many less followers.
Edited by Vahrokh on October 1, 2014 11:25PMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't fail to realize this, what your not seeing or admitting to is that what your suggesting means anyone that wants to PvP and remain statistically competitive must do the VR and group PvE content. Being that you do both high level PvE and Cyrodiil you know the two are far from equal in gaining VR. Further more if you add better rewards to things like Trials as you've repeatably called for here that also work in Cyrodiil the power balance becomes even more ridiculous in so much as you either become a PvE raider or you might as well not play.
The difference between the way you seem to want the game to work and I do in regard to PvP is pretty black and white.
...and what prevents PvP from having strong rewards as well?
As I said, you could be able to do PvP & get strong gear for PvE and vice versa.You want a Themepark "end game" of constant character gear vertical progression through raid style PvE that has a significant impact on your character's strength in PvP. Essentially the EQ/WoW model.
I want a Hybrid model for ESO where you PvE through the main story and develop your character. Then post 50 the game is focused on PvP and crafting, if there's any character progression beyond this point that impacts PvP it should be largely horizontal (ie further specializing your character not increasing the characters overall power). Essentially the classic DAoC model (minus TOA).
So, you don't like raiders and want them out of "your" game, instead of having a game that caters to both all groups? Something tells me that wouldn't be good for business...The sticking point which makes our two positions completely incompatible is your desire for PvE raiding to be a determining factor in PvP outcome. That's also what puts you firmly in the PvE camp, despite your participation in PvP.
Not really. I do PvP a lot & enjoy it, which makes me a PvPer (I also make PvP videos), but I also enjoy PvE and want them both to be rewarding.
Unrewarding gameplay is never a good thing.
I agree, but the only solution to keeping both types of players is to isolate both types of play so that neither is needed to be able to do the other. Otherwise, Zenimax has to pick a side, and frankly while they'll never openly state it, I believe they've picked yours, PvE, but just haven't fully committed to it yet.
That is a very radical statement. You don't keep PvErs by making them unable to do anything else than PvE, nor do you keep PvPers by making them only able to do PvP, you only limit their choices with that, meaning that if they get bored they will quit, instead of doing the other aspect of the game.
If I wanted a PvP only game I'd be asking for open PvP everywhere and player looting like a UO, Shadowbane, Darkfall type game. That's not what I asked for because I had no expectation that ESO would be like those games. I did however expect it to be more like DAoC than PvE focused games like WoW/EQ which I would never play.
Why did you expect it to be DAoC? None of the Elder Scrolls games has even had PvP in them before (multiplayer, even).
Also, if you've never played WoW/EQ how do you know you wouldn't enjoy them? WoW had fantastic PvP back in the vanilla days which I enjoyed a lot as a PvPer. You could get strong PvP gear as well by climbing PvP ranks (later replaced with Gladiator gear from Arenas).As to PvE as an achievement... if I go out into the back yard and collect 10 000 pebbles or blades of grass one at a time is that an achievement or is it just a very wasteful expenditure of my time? ..and if I do it with 3 friends or the whole street does it make the activity any more meaningful or worthy of some sort of reward? That's my view of PvE as an achievement.
Let's put it this way: if you got rewarded a Ferrari for collecting all those pebbles, would you consider it an achievement, or a very wasteful expenditure of your time?
That is exactly the problem with PvE at the moment, you do things, but in the end they're just a waste of time due to lack of rewards (and/or their quality).Edited by DDuke on October 1, 2014 11:54PM6 -
Stratti✭✭✭✭✭
Kungen played when I played, our guild and his had friends in common and I was personally a friend of their lead feral druid (who was muuuuch more skilled tham me ), we'd hang out in the afternoons in their IRC chat and would exchange ideas and create alts to meet and even to play alts with alts.
Kungen was not the best geared tank in the world.
He was the best tank in the world who by consequence also had the best gear.
If you'd give him a greens geared tank alt, he'd probably humiliate most tanks in epics.
And he needed that gear. I don't know if it's known, but the world first (and at least the top 10-20) involves playing against heavily overtuned and bugged bosses. There were some epically broken bosses in TBC, expecially the last ones in Coilfang Reservoir who costed us endless attempts just because their scripts were utterly broken (not just in ESO ). Guild mates would grind pots for hours just to be ready to super spam them in raid. Us tanks would receive super-priority on enchantments, recipes useful to our job and drops. Simply because we were directly on the receiving end of those bugged and overtuned bosses.
Also, at those levels, tanking is vastly, VASTLY more than having the best gear or even the best hands coordination.
By example, the best main tanks talk with the most appropriate authority and tone of voice during the raids. They have a sublime situation awareness. They call tank switches knowing exactly which abilities the boss(es) have just done and knowing when the killer boss abilities were on cooldown.
They know how to deal with a partial wipe and maintain a calm voice and clear awareness in emergence (I suck at both ).
All of this is Kungen. Actually, at the apex of the best times, voice becomes superfluous and everybody knows what to do and when on a silent voice comm, in auto-pilot. But first you HAVE to go through all that inner growth to get up there.
Only BADS see "gear, gear, gear". Pull up a piece of gear off their body and under it you see nothing.
I do agree that such kind of players is what makes a MMO succeed. Not because of their gear but because they are leaders and the masses love to follow leaders. Even in our "nameless" guild competing for the top 10, we'd be an example to the whole server. The other guilds tried to emulate us. The best outside players put a ton of effort to impress us (and eventually join). It's a process that on the long term helps the server be alive and improve over time.
ESO in this respect is a game without heroes, without paragons. If nobody cares to consistently be world first, if nobody cares to build a social powerhouse (Nihilum was that and more, including sponsors) all you have is a game for people with no ambition, no burning desire for achievement.
A game with no leaders, attracts many, many less followers.
Thank you so much for this post. It confirms what me and my friends have said for a decade. I will never forget watching the Illidan kill on youtube and seeing the raid message in the final minutes flash in the centre of the screen ...
"Max Focus"
I am a grown man and found great excitement in watching these top players play secretly telling myself i'd be just as good if I had the time.
Also agree with your point about he was the best tank - therefore best geared not the best tank because he was geared. This is something that people never understood.
I came late to SOO raiding in sub par gear but knew my class and people I raided with were very impressed.
The hardest thing to come to grips with in ESO is that the 4 man content is awesome , tuned correctly with many challenging tanking encounters. Trials is not like that at all.
Part of the reason for your final point is the lack of guild exclusivity I think. On the one hand its great but on the other hand it takes away to a point the whole tribal guild culture.
In terms of calm I want to share a story.
I was MT and GM at the time and we were working on Gruul for an age. We wiped at 3% because of a messed up placement by a bunch of people (25 man for the uninitiated) which caused his explosion mechanic to wipe the raid. I stupidly had my push to talk on when I said angrily "O FFS " - wasnt the best for morale nor my finest moment -
In Trials we even were able to rez after wipe on Mage (laughable)
This game is missing that intense experience1 -
Thank you so much for this post. It confirms what me and my friends have said for a decade. I will never forget watching the Illidan kill on youtube and seeing the raid message in the final minutes flash in the centre of the screen ...
"Max Focus"
I am a grown man and found great excitement in watching these top players play secretly telling myself i'd be just as good if I had the time.
Also agree with your point about he was the best tank - therefore best geared not the best tank because he was geared. This is something that people never understood.
I came late to SOO raiding in sub par gear but knew my class and people I raided with were very impressed.
The hardest thing to come to grips with in ESO is that the 4 man content is awesome , tuned correctly with many challenging tanking encounters. Trials is not like that at all.
Part of the reason for your final point is the lack of guild exclusivity I think. On the one hand its great but on the other hand it takes away to a point the whole tribal guild culture.
In terms of calm I want to share a story.
I was MT and GM at the time and we were working on Gruul for an age. We wiped at 3% because of a messed up placement by a bunch of people (25 man for the uninitiated) which caused his explosion mechanic to wipe the raid. I stupidly had my push to talk on when I said angrily "O FFS " - wasnt the best for morale nor my finest moment -
In Trials we even were able to rez after wipe on Mage (laughable)
This game is missing that intense experience
Been watching you for a bit now, nothing to say to you that has not been said to you already. Just wanted to ask, why did you re-sub ? You posted on the 9/27/14 that you had already unsubbed and had 2 days left. Well more then 2 days have come and gone and your still here. So I was just wondering, because I know it's not the completely broken game keeping you here, was it so you can keep playing forum warrior online ? I really want to know2 -
Stratti✭✭✭✭✭Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
Been watching you for a bit now, nothing to say to you that has not been said to you already. Just wanted to ask, why did you re-sub ? You posted on the 9/27/14 that you had already unsubbed and had 2 days left. Well more then 2 days have come and gone and your still here. So I was just wondering, because I know it's not the completely broken game keeping you here, was it so you can keep playing forum warrior online ? I really want to know
"Every step you take ... I'll be watching you" - Little creepy buddy just a little.
According to my account I have less than one day so not too sure how long it will take before I can no longer post. Forum warrior ? I havent attacked anyone just have a point of view that the vast bulk of this thread have agreed with.
As to why I am here - its called procrastination - I have the freedom at work to tab to a forum and waste my time a little . Also I am very disappointed after purchasing an imperial edition - and all the money in subscription and upgrading my graphic card to be let down. Of course if you disagree that the end game content is indeed replayable and will hold attention then please put your opinion forward. Having a go at me does nothing other than make you look bad and give me a sense of satisfaction .
This thread has gotten massive attention from the community and this is a good thing. ZoS does check the forums for trends and perhaps they will take some of the feedback people have given on board together with all the metrics they have on log in times - subs etc etc .
On a different note - you need to chill a little there bud. No need to get so worked up and attack people ironically calling them forum warriors. Its a discussion - its a game - we are people with different views. Unless you are in a communist country (possible?) then perhaps you should remember we all have the right to an opinion2 -
"Every step you take ... I'll be watching you" - Little creepy buddy just a little.
According to my account I have less than one day so not too sure how long it will take before I can no longer post. Forum warrior ? I havent attacked anyone just have a point of view that the vast bulk of this thread have agreed with.
As to why I am here - its called procrastination - I have the freedom at work to tab to a forum and waste my time a little . Also I am very disappointed after purchasing an imperial edition - and all the money in subscription and upgrading my graphic card to be let down. Of course if you disagree that the end game content is indeed replayable and will hold attention then please put your opinion forward. Having a go at me does nothing other than make you look bad and give me a sense of satisfaction .
This thread has gotten massive attention from the community and this is a good thing. ZoS does check the forums for trends and perhaps they will take some of the feedback people have given on board together with all the metrics they have on log in times - subs etc etc .
On a different note - you need to chill a little there bud. No need to get so worked up and attack people ironically calling them forum warriors. Its a discussion - its a game - we are people with different views. Unless you are in a communist country (possible?) then perhaps you should remember we all have the right to an opinion
My input, I definitely feel that the current system has character progression, and furthermore supports character progression in terms of skills points. The problem here is that the system is setup to support horizontal progression not vertical, which is what gear progression succumbs to, which in turn creates a gap between new users and veteran users. Most people would agree that gap is not a good thing, making the problem worse is the longevity of mmos. So as the developers have said, because they listened to feedback from beta and early launch, that a champion system will replace the current veteran rank one. In the end this will allow for horizontal character progression through the addition of expanding current skill trees, adding entirely new ones, new schools of magicka, new weapons in my mind the possibilities are endless. But I said before this not vertical progression, you will not go from being a tank, to a super tank, to an even more super tank clearing content. The ESO system allows for player flexibility, while still providing a fun, challenging experience and at the same time does not create the gap that vertical profession does.4 -
Sunrock✭✭✭This is rule 1 . How have Z missed this. I am bitterly disappointed with there being no end game here .
Before any vitriol there are a few key components of end game that will keep someone playing for a year or two in the same level.
1. Gear progression
2. Tiered progression with casual at the bottom and hardcore up the top with rewards that represent where you are on the ladder
3. Solo progression to improve your toon on a grind, daily quest or anything that will motivate you. Not all gaming time will there be a group so this keeps you occupied.
4. Interface for finding groups - whether it is a global channel or an interface but it needs to work
5. Content that is challenging but allows for easier progression in the beginning so as not to burn groups completely - so they can at least have a kill while working on tougher bosses
None of that is here in any real way that will compel people to play. Hell I love the game in its design, graphics etc but it's not enough . 5 days to go and I'm not sure whether I will renew . I need to see some thing that tells me they recognise an issue.
1. Not needed for an end game but is one way to go. ZOS could do better here IMO but nothing I would quit over if they don't.
2. Casual players will always be on the bottom no matter what. Because they are casual. However you don't need to be hardcore to be on the top. You just need to be a normal average player.
3. There are a ton of achievements you can do solo.
4. The LFG tool in this game is actually good. Not ZOS fault no one use it. You also have zone chat that works well. I have no clue how ignorant you are about this subject.
5. They have that. AA trials are face roll easy mode. Even hard mode of AA is relativly easy. Serpent trile is a bit challanging but not harder then how difficult level of Moten Core was when it was first introduced in WoW. Normal mode Dragonstar Arena is medium difficulty and the DA hardmode is really hardmode. So I have no [snip] clue what you talk about.
But you're really delutional when it comes to what end game is to begin with. End game is all content that is desiged for max level characters. In ESO this is all content that is designed for lv 50+. And there is allot of veteran content in this game so your just point of view is stupid in my eyes.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on October 2, 2014 8:05PM1 -
Helwyr✭✭As I said, you could be able to do PvP & get strong gear for PvE and vice versa.
I don't want the game to be all about gear, the more focus you put on gear the less and less PVP becomes about actual player vs player, and more about 'player vs environment' vs 'player vs environment'.So, you don't like raiders and want them out of "your" game, instead of having a game that caters to both all groups? Something tells me that wouldn't be good for business...
That wasn't what I said. What I'm saying is I don't want to be forced to play their game (PvE raids etc) to be able to play my game (PvP and a bit of crafting). It's not like I'm insisting that those who enjoy PvE raiding must do PvP, why should those that want to PvP have to do PvE raiding?Not really. I do PvP a lot & enjoy it, which makes me a PvPer (I also make PvP videos), but I also enjoy PvE and want them both to be rewarding.
Unrewarding gameplay is never a good thing.
Why do you need a reward for doing something you claim to enjoy? Do you enjoy PvP and PvE or is it only the reward at the end that you enjoy? The rewarding part for me is the experience, and if the experience isn't rewarding in of itself I don't want to do it unless I need the sort of reward you speak of at the end... that's generally called work to most people for which they receive a payment at it's completion.That is a very radical statement. You don't keep PvErs by making them unable to do anything else than PvE, nor do you keep PvPers by making them only able to do PvP, you only limit their choices with that, meaning that if they get bored they will quit, instead of doing the other aspect of the game.
It's not radical at all. Separating the content as described in no way makes players be they PvE or PvP focused unable to do the other type of content. It would just mean when you do PvE raids the character advancements you gain in that content will only benefit you in other PvE raid content and not in PvP, and vice versa with PvP character advancement should there be any. That's the most neutral and equitable system possible for both play types.Why did you expect it to be DAoC? None of the Elder Scrolls games has even had PvP in them before (multiplayer, even).
None of them had group/raid PvE either... So, what's your point here?
On the other hand ESO did copy from DAoCs RvR system. My expectations are in large part of the developers selling what their game would be like and from briefly playing beta. Although, I'll grant you I'm not surprised it's turning out to be something else. Many MMO developers are like politicians, in that they try to appeal to everyone in way that they can't possibly deliver, and usually end up disappointing everyone that's actually paying attention and not drinking cool aid.Also, if you've never played WoW/EQ how do you know you wouldn't enjoy them? WoW had fantastic PvP back in the vanilla days which I enjoyed a lot as a PvPer. You could get strong PvP gear as well by climbing PvP ranks (later replaced with Gladiator gear from Arenas).
This line of argument you're using here is very weak. You don't need to personally experience something to know whether you like it or not. Have you ever eaten dog poop? If I was to fully accept your line of reasoning here I may have to consider the possibility I may actually like eating dog poop, because I definitely have never tried to taste some so how would I know? Fact of the matter is I'm sufficiently familiar with games like EQ/WoW from reading about them and seeing others play or talk about them to know I do not like them.Let's put it this way: if you got rewarded a Ferrari for collecting all those pebbles, would you consider it an achievement, or a very wasteful expenditure of your time?
That is exactly the problem with PvE at the moment, you do things, but in the end they're just a waste of time due to lack of rewards (and/or their quality).
This last part of your post really gets to the crux of the issue in terms of what you want out of gameplay which to be honest seems very misplaced.
Back to the example, if I got a real Ferrari for collecting 10 000 pebbles one at a time, I would gladly do it, but it would be laborious work I wouldn't enjoy it. The pay off would be fantastic because I could sell that Ferrari for a lot money and with that money be able to do lots of things I really enjoy doing or get things I really need which I currently couldn't afford. I wouldn't consider it an achievement though, it didn't really challenge me as a person, I didn't overcome a great obstacle, create something noteworthy or unique, or basically do anything anyone else couldn't do. I just had to spend time and suffer a monotonous task for which some odd charitable person was going to give me a Ferrari.
However, we're talking about a game, not real life in terms of ESO or other MMOs. I would definitely not collect 10 000 pebbles one at a time for a virtual Ferrari, that would be a waste of my time.
The problem with PvE in general isn't that the rewards are poor, it's that experience of PvE, the journey through that content isn't a rewarding experience. In simple terms it isn't that fun. If it were you wouldn't care 1/10th as much about the payment type reward you get from doing it.
Every MMO we play will eventually end, all the payment type rewards will be meaningless at that point. What will be left was the experience. It's the journey that matters, not the rewards at the end.
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