No End Game = No MMO
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
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Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭
I believe this would be an example of players defining the convention, almost 'tyranny of the genre'. The noun MMORPG shouldn't determine the style of game but should be used as a tool to describe a style of game. It may not seem like there's no difference there but there is - and an important one.
Outside of player expectation, that has been nurtured over the years by designers, all an MMORPG really needs to be/have to satisfy the the term MMORPG, is the provision of a platform that supports a 'massive' number of players and provides the opportunity for role for playing*.
Granted, few MMORPGs are designed, from the ground up, to facilitate roleplaying, preferring to support 'roll-playing', which is as valid a form of entertainment as any other.
Still, many of the elements that digital role-play games (and digital role-players) choose to assign to the genre are elements that traditional role-play game design was attempting to move away from. For example, character sheets, 'immersion-breaking' stat tracking and rail-road quest design. There's some excellent articles from Dragon Magazine (a magazine published to support pen&paper role-players back when TSR were calling the shots) that tackled the subject.
Anyway, back to ESO/end game. The frustration you describe from having the 'goal posts' move is a good example of why an 'end' may be a desirable evolution of the MMORPG game, as many now perceive it. If an end existed you would finally be able to finish the game - at least with one character - and enjoy the sense of closure that comes with it.
It's important to note that an 'end' doesn't have to mean an end of playing the game, simply an end to the progression/adventure of one of the players characters. In my example I attempted to demonstrate that a player is still free to re-engage with the game through playing an alt (..and, in theory, by managing the now-NPC-finished character.)
Anyway, we're talking about a restructuring of what an MMORPG means to many players who have grown up with a singular MMORPG experience so it's no wonder that they have trouble envisioning an alternative. There's also the spikey argument of how an industry seeks to promote entertainment-dependency, rather than educate and empower gamers to entertain themselves.
The paper had much more to say on the subject and it's a shame I can't dig it up and link it. If I could, I would.
Edit: Oh, the typos.
I think the reason the type of mmorpg you're describing hasn't been tried is straight capitalism. I think the bean counters see the potential for a never-ending stream of subscription revenue and probably push developers in that direction.
It would actually be refreshing to see something different experimented with. It would probably have to be done by smaller outfits because the big boys like Blizzard or ZOS go for mass appeal. Anytime you try to appeal to everyone, content can get watered down or too "safe". They dont want to alienate people with strange game designs. After all, this is an expensive investment. They want to maximize profit.
This thread is a perfect example of what developers have to contend with. People are complaining that this game doesn't have the same features as other established MMOs. They long for the familiar. So devs cave and essentially begin the process of cloning WoW.Edited by Junkogen on September 29, 2014 11:11PM2 -
The truth is that WoW has no end game because good guilds clear the "difficult" stuff within a month of its release, farm up gear for a month, then unsub and wait a year and a half for the next content patch.
Behold, a true voice of reason.
The content droughts between the releases of the big dungeons in vanilla (T1, T2, ~2.5, T3) made a lot of people quit in Vanilla. Unless you were in a guild pounding its head against the wall for months you cleaned it up fairly quickly. We sniped players all the time from 2nd best guilds to fill spots of players who couldn't handle the waiting.
One thing I found interesting was Blizzards ability to stretch content like Onyxia, Molten Core, and BWL simply by intertwining them... what with the fire resistance requirements... and the cloaks that had to be farmed. There were still incentives to do full clears on T1 dungeons, including Onyxia... well into AQ. Many continued through Naxx... farming the lower tier dungeons on Alts.
During the long wait for AQ they attempted to supplement those hungry for raiding with Zul'Gurub and of course the gate opening... but clearing that the first time took literally a day max?
Then you had another long wait between the release of AQ and Naxx, and most guilds were just plain broken by AQ. They simply were not good enough to do it. I felt bad for them, so bad in fact I rolled a warrior alt just to tank it for a few friendly guilds that I had IRL friends in.
Naxx was so completely inaccessible to most players that Blizzard re-released an easier version of the instance in an expansion pack later (I have no idea which I couldn't stomach playing past TBC).
The Key Success Factors in WoW
The key to getting through the droughts was the PvP and enjoying server culture (which died after TBC when things were boadened to try and turn Arena into an eSport)... even pre-warlord, pre-arena... just having fun in the Gulch, Basin, Valley (and even Tarren Mill!). Seeing the same enemy names, recognizing them just by the gear they were wearing. Sitting in the capital chatting... perfectly wonderful fun.
People don't do that in any MMO I've played since.
Problem with PvP in ESO is that it currently doesn't have the ability sustain those hungry for content... because its so severely broken.
The problem, I think, is the rash of MMOs that are doing this open world PvP (RvR) type model... and it hasn't worked yet. It will likely be decades before it can physically work just based on the infrastructure, and the average service level purchased by consumers, and the average hardware owned by consumers. Even assuming the best possible hardware end to end it likely can never work simply because balancing an MMO is difficult, especially for a game where everyone has the option of ranged weaponry/spells. Even if it were perfectly balanced, Craglorn PvP outcomes have more to do with population sizes than tactics or balance... which I think most people end up getting bored with (we did in Warhammer, and Aion).
Going balls deep for Craglorn open world pvp was a grave mistake I feel, they should have started out with smaller tactical objective based PvP and worked up. In warsong gulch... the classic druid flag sneak probably still exists to this day. I doubt camping the enemy spawn with a few Thunderfury warriors in Arathi Basin is still a viable strategy... At least a 15v15v15 would be playable... hell maybe even a 40v40v40.
The mess in Craglorn was too ambitious, too soon... and it could very well be the sole purpose this game ends up failing (if indeed it does).Khajiit Nightblade
Sometimes I write stuff.1 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »One thing I found interesting was Blizzards ability to stretch content like Onyxia, Molten Core, and BWL simply by intertwining them... what with the fire resistance requirements... and the cloaks that had to be farmed. There were still incentives to do full clears on T1 dungeons, including Onyxia... well into AQ. Many continued through Naxx... farming the lower tier dungeons on Alts.
A big factor: stuff like Onyxia kept being fun (and somewhat dangerous!) to do for months and months. One single room (some trash before it but it was "nominal") that entertrained LEGIONS of raiders for months. And it had some super coveted rarer drops that would make people slobber. I had some gadgets people admired for years.
Compare with ESO trials: larger, more bosses but they aren't worth an Onyxia toenail. And the drops? Utter garbage. Only good stuff is the lucky Aether drop... and if you show it they tell you that you bought it while it was BoE
In WoW, I have seen people make a queue in Orgrimmar to admire a guy who had recently resubbed. And rightly so.
He was in full, original Naxx T3 tank gear.
Everybody knows just by a quick glance that the guy was a PRO, worth any honor. This happened after the Wrath of the Lich King release. That is, two expansions and 20 levels later and still people would stop and look at that guy.
Some gear in WoW meant much more than "more stats". It's a status symbol, shown with pride by the few who could prove worth achieving it.
Same for the first orange weapon. Sadly my guild got it close second. That weapon was a symbol of a succesful guild, able to dedicate immense team efforts to achieve those items.
All of this got lost, in example in ESO legendary colors are irrelevant, getting a yellow item is like: "yeah I got the same stuff everybody else got yawn".gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »Then you had another long wait between the release of AQ and Naxx, and most guilds were just plain broken by AQ. They simply were not good enough to do it. I felt bad for them, so bad in fact I rolled a warrior alt just to tank it for a few friendly guilds that I had IRL friends in.
AQ40 was not difficult at all, it was just dumb and boring up to the last boss.
I appreciated the gate opening event much more than the actual instance.
But still, I have main tanked it as feral druid none the less. Some drops I got in there, despite the imposed levelling obsolescence, lasted me so much I started TBC raiding still using them.gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »Naxx was so completely inaccessible to most players that Blizzard re-released an easier version of the instance in an expansion pack later (I have no idea which I couldn't stomach playing past TBC).
Naxx was finally a challenge. Sadly I could only tank some bosses as a druid, they designed others as impossible to do. But still, it's been fun. Doing the (almost) impossible is another great satisfaction for achievers.
Not to say the ludicrous effects in PvP! One of us, to other players would be hard to kill like a raid boss
I had both a tank and DPS set. I used a mix of AQ40 stuff with pure DPS gear for PvP. You should have seen the faces. Those paladins who'd get dead because they did not use bubble fast enough, they could not believe to go down so hard
Edited by Vahrokh on September 30, 2014 12:11AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
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Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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A year and a half?The truth is that WoW has no end game because good guilds clear the "difficult" stuff within a month of its release, farm up gear for a month, then unsub and wait a year and a half for the next content patch.
November 23rd, 2004: Onyxia's Lair, Molten Core
3 months, 12 days...
March 7th, 2005: Azuregos, Lord Kazzak
3 months, 5 days...
July 12th, 2005: Blackwing Lair
3 months, 1 day...
September 13th, 2005: Zul'Gurub
3 months, 21 days...
January 3rd, 2006: Temple of Ahn'Qiraj
5 months, 17 days...
June 20th, 2006: Naxxramas
6 months, 27 days...
January 16th, 2007: Karazhan, Gruul's Lair, Maghteridon's Lair, Serpentine Cavern, The Eye, Battle for Mount Hyjal, Doom Lord Kazak, Doomwalker
4 months, 6 days...
May 22nd, 2007: Black Temple
5 months, 22 days...
November 13th, 2007: Zul'Aman
4 months, 12 days...
March 25th, 2008: Sunwell Plateau
7 months, 19 days...
November 13th, 2008: Obsidian Sanctum, Archavon, The Eye of Eternity, Naxxramas
5 months, 1 day...
April 14th, 2009: Ulduar
2 months, 20 days...
August 4th, 2009: Trial of the Crusader, Trial of the Grand Crusader
2 months, 80 days...
September 22, 2009: Onyxia's Lair
2 months, 16 days...
December 8th, 2009: Icecrown Citadel
5 months, 24 days
June 30th, 2010: The Ruby Sanctum
5 months, 7 days
December 7th, 2010: Bastion of Twilight, Throne of the Four Winds, Blackwing Descent, Bradin Hold
This is when I quit WoW, so I won't go any further. No one has kept up with this pace of quality raid content. No MMO since WoW has "mattered" as much in the PvE market space. Good WoW guilds were paid to play the game; millions of people cared about who was beating which boss and when.
No one cares even 1% as much about ESO Trials. I was watching the ESO Live stream and they introduced the guild that beat Dragonstar Arena hard mode first, and all I could think was "who? why would I care?"2 -
Here is the translation for you.
November 23rd, 2004: Onyxia's Lair, Molten Core
3 months, 12 days...
(Interesting content for a day)
March 7th, 2005: Azuregos, Lord Kazzak
3 months, 5 days...
( 5 months waiting (assuming 1 month clear time)
July 12th, 2005: Blackwing Lair
3 months, 1 day...
(interesting content for a few days)
September 13th, 2005: Zul'Gurub
3 months, 21 days...
( 5 months waiting (assuming 1 month clear time)
January 3rd, 2006: Temple of Ahn'Qiraj
5 months, 17 days...
waiting (assuming 1 month clear time)
June 20th, 2006: Naxxramas
6 months, 27 days...
waiting
Expansion[/quote]
In total Vanilla wow had over 20 months of pure waiting for content...
It looks even worse when you spreadsheet it.
Edited by gamerlucretiusb14_ESO on September 30, 2014 1:39AMKhajiit Nightblade
Sometimes I write stuff.2 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't see what value your "translation" adds to the discussion. The claim was that WoW's content patches came once every year and a half, which was proved false.
Additionally, "days till farm status" is an irrelevant, fabricated figure. It took far more than 30 days to complete your tier set. Most people didn't complete their sets before the next tier set came out.Edited by Maverick827 on September 30, 2014 1:49AM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »
Azuregos & Lord Kazzak were killed 25th March, 2005. Over two weeks of interesting content. (Even though the previous one was still undefeated at this point).gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »3 months, 5 days...
( 5 months waiting (assuming 1 month clear time)
July 12th, 2005: Blackwing Lair
Nefarian, killed 26th September. Two months clear time. Please note that it took 2-3 times that to get fully T2 geared (most people didn't have full T2 before next raid launched).gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »3 months, 1 day...
(interesting content for a few days)
September 13th, 2005: Zul'Gurub
Yes, Zul'gurub wasn't that difficult. It didn't drop the best gear either and was designed for more casual guilds if my memory doesn't fail me
Also, BWL wasn't even cleared when it released.gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »3 months, 21 days...
( 5 months waiting (assuming 1 month clear time)
January 3rd, 2006: Temple of Ahn'Qiraj
C'thun, 25th April, yet again, it took much longer to get fully geared from AQ.gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »5 months, 17 days...
waiting (assuming 1 month clear time)
June 20th, 2006: Naxxramas
Kel'Thuzad, 7th September. Your numbers are off again. Also, as usual, it took longer than that to get fully geared.gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »6 months, 27 days...
waiting
Expansiongamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »In total Vanilla wow had over 20 months of pure waiting for content...
It looks even worse when you spreadsheet it.
C'mon, we know you have some kind of a personal vendetta against the game, but spreading out misinformation isn't going to help your credibility
Funniest part must be that Excel table of yours.
Onyxia - 30th January, 2005
Ragnaros - 25th April, 2005
30 days to farm status? LOLEdited by DDuke on September 30, 2014 2:10AM2 -
AssaultLemming✭✭✭✭I think a lot of people miss the point here. To my mind the content is fine, fun even, but it's the failure to provide a decent reward that makes us all so frustrated.
The trick is to design rewards that people really want without creating an elite class of raiders who are overpowered compared to the rest of the population.
It's a real shame that the vet group dungeons don't drop rewards that people want, because group dungeons should be a staple part of end game that people do daily, as should trials.
The rewards should include gear, but also people love getting items that improve the look or utility of their characters. What we need are new mounts, costumes, illusions, weapon and armor graphics, pets, clickable items with buffs or spells you can cast from quick slots, etc.
Fun things that appeal to the hardcore and casual alike. I spent literally months of actual online time in eq camping rare spawns to get illusion masks for my bard and it was great!
You can bet if they added tiger mounts to the bosses in vet dungeons thousands of people would be in them day and night.
Or clicky boots of speed or levitate, a flaming weapon graphic, a mini Dragon pet, a zombie illusion, a clickable damage shield, an item to summon a shopkeeper, an additional hireling pet, the list goes on.
Combine these drops as super rares along with vr14 set drops and legendary tempers and bam, all that wasted content becomes very rewarding.1 -
Stratti✭✭✭✭✭AssaultLemming wrote: »I think a lot of people miss the point here. To my mind the content is fine, fun even, but it's the failure to provide a decent reward that makes us all so frustrated.
The trick is to design rewards that people really want without creating an elite class of raiders who are overpowered compared to the rest of the population.
It's a real shame that the vet group dungeons don't drop rewards that people want, because group dungeons should be a staple part of end game that people do daily, as should trials.
The rewards should include gear, but also people love getting items that improve the look or utility of their characters. What we need are new mounts, costumes, illusions, weapon and armor graphics, pets, clickable items with buffs or spells you can cast from quick slots, etc.
Fun things that appeal to the hardcore and casual alike. I spent literally months of actual online time in eq camping rare spawns to get illusion masks for my bard and it was great!
You can bet if they added tiger mounts to the bosses in vet dungeons thousands of people would be in them day and night.
Or clicky boots of speed or levitate, a flaming weapon graphic, a mini Dragon pet, a zombie illusion, a clickable damage shield, an item to summon a shopkeeper, an additional hireling pet, the list goes on.
Combine these drops as super rares along with vr14 set drops and legendary tempers and bam, all that wasted content becomes very rewarding.
Nailed it - This is exactly what I meant in the Original Post. Its not about getting rewards that make my toon overpowered in line with the rest just meaningful rewards. Some have jumped on End Game meaning only raids but I mean the entire package1 -
Stratti✭✭✭✭✭gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »In total Vanilla wow had over 20 months of pure waiting for content...
It looks even worse when you spreadsheet it.
[/quote]
Where did you get the numbers from ??????
#1 For the second year in almost all guilds had not even entered Nax nor would they ever. Before release of TBC only 1 guild on the server where in there and they only got to Four Horseman with six months out
#2 Blackwing Lair was the guild breaker second boss less the 2% of guilds did it
#3 Molten Core required longer than 30 days of farming (4 drops) the first few bosses just to get the gear for the later
You missed AQ20 ; ZG20 and also of course LBRS/UBRS 10 man.
Just couldnt let your post go without calling BS. In fact Blizzard changed their model because this content was too hard and only less than 5% experienced it
Which means 95% of the population (5 million or so at the time up to 7million by the end) enjoyed the game without these encounters
Edited by Stratti on September 30, 2014 3:02AM1 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
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The whole "the UI is horrible" rage.
I understand that menus could be improved but I really like the HUD and it's very 'TES'
Not only is the HUD really cool, since it's you, not "buttons", that gives your character power. Instead of pressing 5 macros to protect yourself....you can move. What abilities you use, is up to you. And because of the bar, ESO can add lots of skills, spellcrafting without worry to much about overpower.
SURE someone finds 3 spell crafted mixes that is overpowered.....but then...they do not have other things they need and STILL players can MOVE, or block....like a newbie can.
Zenimax will get time to balance when this happens.
Nick Konkle, Zenimax game structure manager, have stated this several times when people complains about "only" 5 bars, when its 12 + Quickslot.
You can find post on this forum, stating that the restricted skill bar is taking away smart game play. This is only players who seams not to grasp that ESO is played by other people.
Just like the guy who raged when Zenimax changed the chests in Instanced dungeons to be 2-3, instead of 5-8 each dungeon. And for groups.
He blamed them to ruin the game for him. He had a very good system to get gold. He joined dungeon groups, and just took chests. Didnt help kill anything...or much. Took em all! Zenimax changed it and he quit.
I think same thing is going to happen when some players who are left, realize about all the new things that's coming. Where you never can get it all, or find everything in any zone in the game. Where there are so many choices, who can not have the perfect build for most things. Or even KNOW what best is.
I am still currious when someone say they have the explore achievement for every zone. Yes? Ok? That doesnt mean you found everything, just the points of interest.
It would be unfair of Zenimax to include everything they add between patches to those achievements. Since it can be things "with no value".
I found several new mud piles in level 20 zones, which had items marked as "junk", in them. Anyone who asks why these are in game....need to read what ESO is, again.
I loved the "old bag" I got when fishing. 20 gold! Thats alot for a level 15 player.
Not alts...but all the new players that's seams to increase!
The players who dies 20 times because they don't know they need fire resist if they are a vampire.....and being a dark elf doesnt protect them 100% anymore. Learn after a while to use Fire resists enchants, as well as spell resist. Then they see....hmm...I get more damage now then I did a week ago.
Something changed, again. And instead of sacrificing another enchant for more fire resists, they choose another build.
This is called balancing and working as intended. JUST like the change to tradeskills.
It was never intended to skill up on Deconstruct higher level items then you could CREATE (nothing to do with player level).
The change was a fix. Which some seams to call a nerf?
Not many players are left who HATES this. But some are....and they don't know about it. Once they do....either they adapt and enjoy the game, or move on to Wildstar....oh yeah, they flopped......archmage maybe?
Proof = Craglorn still have people yelling to get more for Trial, or something and LINKS achievements. That is true to be important in other games. But pointless here, since the first 2 trails can be 8 manned, as long as the 4 others do not die and does something. (I am still waiting until I can do it with my friends)
Also, I've seen a FEW, "only a DK, with a robe and stick" required for Graglorn events. But even them gets fewer now when they see light armor isn't protecting you against anything not magic as good.
Balance.......which some players claims Zenimax made the game harder lol!
I wonder how many Vet 14 knows about heavy attacks....or how to utilize it?
They will! I am just curious how long it takes from patch notes, to reach players, who understand to try it. Without asking a guide. or looking at an addon ;-)
I am really curious about the number of requests on forums to update ESO sits that tells you exact info. Or demands to know exactly how things works. Sure...its interesting.
Wanna know? Go try! No addon even needed (Feel free to use all the addons you want).
Doing everything in ESO is fully possible, if not even more enjoyable, without any addons.
Exceptions are if anything annoys you. Like wanting to move a chat bar. Or anything you can remove Or make stay, like the skill bar (thats possible).
For example, some players claims it impossible to play ESO without a minimap.
No, it is not. Not impossible and you learn to navigate better. SURE...its a hassle to press M....but impossible? Pfff.Edited by Cogo on September 30, 2014 5:58AMOghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"0 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I believe this would be an example of players defining the convention, almost 'tyranny of the genre'. The noun MMORPG shouldn't determine the style of game but should be used as a tool to describe a style of game. It may not seem like there's no difference there but there is - and an important one.
Outside of player expectation, that has been nurtured over the years by designers, all an MMORPG really needs to be/have to satisfy the the term MMORPG, is the provision of a platform that supports a 'massive' number of players and provides the opportunity for role for playing*.
I think I seen the study you are talking about.
I think that is one reason why players misunderstand ESO.
Another is......MMO doesnt have to do anything regarding content. Like "must have an end game".
The content of MMO is totally up to the creators. It's another thing to say what works or not.
ESO is designed, to never end, and always expand. But they don't expand 1 part, which is High level "raid". They expand Tamriel, ongoing, in a lot of areas, including "end game".
There is no end in Tamriel. That's one of the first parameters Zenimax set for what kind of MMO they created. Matt Firor said over and over, to keep players interested in the long term, it needs to be interesting and fun.
So they came up with the idea to never trivilize "old content", so anyone who starts the game gets an experience like we did.....just more to choose from.
Tamriel grows, it doesn't make "old" things useless. Yes, players who play 1 character for 2 years WILL be more powerful then most others......
Anyone who think that's wrong, where Tamriel is a world of many creatures, heroes, explores, races and whatever......that being a Champion, emporer in Cyrodiil, who leads victory after victory....is not getting more powerful....
I do not even know why someone think that would be wrong......Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"0 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Maverick827 wrote: »A year and a half?
November 23rd, 2004: Onyxia's Lair, Molten Core
3 months, 12 days...
March 7th, 2005: Azuregos, Lord Kazzak
3 months, 5 days...
July 12th, 2005: Blackwing Lair
3 months, 1 day...
September 13th, 2005: Zul'Gurub
3 months, 21 days...
January 3rd, 2006: Temple of Ahn'Qiraj
5 months, 17 days...
June 20th, 2006: Naxxramas
6 months, 27 days...
January 16th, 2007: Karazhan, Gruul's Lair, Maghteridon's Lair, Serpentine Cavern, The Eye, Battle for Mount Hyjal, Doom Lord Kazak, Doomwalker
4 months, 6 days...
May 22nd, 2007: Black Temple
5 months, 22 days...
November 13th, 2007: Zul'Aman
4 months, 12 days...
March 25th, 2008: Sunwell Plateau
7 months, 19 days...
November 13th, 2008: Obsidian Sanctum, Archavon, The Eye of Eternity, Naxxramas
5 months, 1 day...
April 14th, 2009: Ulduar
2 months, 20 days...
August 4th, 2009: Trial of the Crusader, Trial of the Grand Crusader
2 months, 80 days...
September 22, 2009: Onyxia's Lair
2 months, 16 days...
December 8th, 2009: Icecrown Citadel
5 months, 24 days
June 30th, 2010: The Ruby Sanctum
5 months, 7 days
December 7th, 2010: Bastion of Twilight, Throne of the Four Winds, Blackwing Descent, Bradin Hold
This is when I quit WoW, so I won't go any further. No one has kept up with this pace of quality raid content. No MMO since WoW has "mattered" as much in the PvE market space. Good WoW guilds were paid to play the game; millions of people cared about who was beating which boss and when.
No one cares even 1% as much about ESO Trials. I was watching the ESO Live stream and they introduced the guild that beat Dragonstar Arena hard mode first, and all I could think was "who? why would I care?"
I agree to an extent.
But Everquest beats wow, by MILES when it comes to raiding. Sorry.
Otherwise you got is very right.
But the longer WoW ran.....the more they took away the Skill from the players and put them into reading info, addons and be fast enough. Everyone know what to do...you just needed to be fast and know what.
In ESO, the same situation today, may require you to do different tomorrow.
Thats the cool thing in ESO. And no one can say that its nothing else then player skill that can counter that.Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"1 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Vanilla WOW did not just have raids as you guys assume, it had one of the best pvp systems ever, world bosses, class quests, difficult dungeons, elite quests zones, great crafting and a long journey up to 60.
All those things wow lost over the years and today it only has raiding and nothing else.4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Vanilla WOW did not just have raids as you guys assume, it had one of the best pvp systems ever, world bosses, class quests, difficult dungeons, elite quests zones, great crafting and a long journey up to 60.
All those things wow lost over the years and today it only has raiding and nothing else.
Exactly. That is why it became so popular back in the days, it appealed to all player types and kept them around with fantastic (rewarding) end game.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Not only is the HUD really cool, since it's you, not "buttons", that gives your character power. Instead of pressing 5 macros to protect yourself....you can move. What abilities you use, is up to you. And because of the bar, ESO can add lots of skills, spellcrafting without worry to much about overpower.
This thread is not about UI, it's about end game & replayabilityI am still currious when someone say they have the explore achievement for every zone. Yes? Ok? That doesnt mean you found everything, just the points of interest.
It would be unfair of Zenimax to include everything they add between patches to those achievements. Since it can be things "with no value".
How is that so hard to believe? Do I have to link you the screenshots of me having visited virtually every area in ESO (not just Points of Interest)? Because I can prove it with HarvestMap addon (yeah, I'm kind of addicted to filling it out with resource nodes).I found several new mud piles in level 20 zones, which had items marked as "junk", in them. Anyone who asks why these are in game....need to read what ESO is, again.
So ESO is about finding junk in mud piles? I sure hope that isn't a metaphor, because it isn't very encouraging.I loved the "old bag" I got when fishing. 20 gold! Thats alot for a level 15 player.
Not alts...but all the new players that's seams to increase!
You do not get 20 gold from the "Wet Gunny Sacks" which you can fish up, you get random materials (sometimes Kutas). Something tells me you haven't been fishing in this game either.The players who dies 20 times because they don't know they need fire resist if they are a vampire.....and being a dark elf doesnt protect them 100% anymore. Learn after a while to use Fire resists enchants, as well as spell resist. Then they see....hmm...I get more damage now then I did a week ago.
Something changed, again. And instead of sacrificing another enchant for more fire resists, they choose another build.
Or could it be that it is just a bad player, if he keeps dying constantly? Not having fire resistance seems like a rather poor excuse.
Also, being a dunmer never "protected you 100%" (soft cap is 50%, might want to keep that in mind with your fire resistance enchants).Proof = Craglorn still have people yelling to get more for Trial, or something and LINKS achievements. That is true to be important in other games. But pointless here, since the first 2 trails can be 8 manned, as long as the 4 others do not die and does something. (I am still waiting until I can do it with my friends)
This is the exact reason I stated you should be max level & reached the end game before commenting on it.
You seem to have no clue how end game actually functions (not a surprise).
First of all, you will not kill Varlariel with 8 people, unless you all have sick DPS (something tells me you won't).
Secondly, good luck doing Serpent Trial or hardmode Arena with a pug group. Actually, good luck even finding people with achievements for them.Also, I've seen a FEW, "only a DK, with a robe and stick" required for Graglorn events. But even them gets fewer now when they see light armor isn't protecting you against anything not magic as good.
I can't even... Please go back to leveling your toon before commenting on this, the end game has never been about dying to physical damage (most of it is magical).
The main reason people want a magicka build (not just DKs) in their group is because they have better DPS & group synergies than stamina. Period.
Now, this has been getting better with latest patches, but still isn't quite there yet.
I think I seen the study you are talking about.
I think that is one reason why players misunderstand ESO.
Another is......MMO doesnt have to do anything regarding content. Like "must have an end game".
ESO is designed, to never end, and always expand. But they don't expand 1 part, which is High level "raid". They expand Tamriel, ongoing, in a lot of areas, including "end game".
Oh look, another game designer...
If ESO wasn't designed to cater to end game raiders also, then why did we get 3 end game "raids" within the first 6 months, as well as the challenging VR Dragonstar Arena? Your statement makes absolutely no sense.
To be honest, it seems like you wanted a co-op Skyrim with a lot of DLCs, not an MMO.Edited by DDuke on September 30, 2014 10:53AM2 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭
Nailed it - This is exactly what I meant in the Original Post. Its not about getting rewards that make my toon overpowered in line with the rest just meaningful rewards. Some have jumped on End Game meaning only raids but I mean the entire package
The problem of 'meaningful rewards' in an MMORPG can not be understated. While in a single-player game we can 'win', be 'the best' and enjoy significant changes/and end to play, in an MMORPG, with the standard model as subscribed to by many players this is not possible.
What do you find meaningful? At the end of the day, this is a game - a source of entertainment, one that presents itself as a pleasing way to spend the time we've earned.
I'm not quite sure why anyone expects any form of entertainment to have anymore meaning than that they create for themselves, that is by 'choosing to care'.
We could argue that game designers should try to make us care more but.. really? Sure there's considerable research into player types and how best to manipulate players through game design, much of which I actively study and find fascinating. There's also a truck load of ethical considerations involved as well as the more obvious question of, 'How much do you trust these guys and gals to manipulate in an honest manner?'
Still, players themselves must take some responsibility for choosing to care and invest themselves with the games they choose to play, simply because nobody is forcing them to play them and it doesn't matter how much they want X game title to satisfy whatever personal want they feel is unsatisfied.
Referring back to the article I still cannot find, perhaps an achievable 'end' would help to provide meaning. I believe the author mentioned something along these lines. When there is no end, can there be any real meaning to our actions?
I would hope so though and I feel many players appreciate the game for journey. Of course, a good journey also needs ending and....
...I really wish I could find that paper.2 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭Found a good paper by Bartle. If we don't know how Bartle relates to player motivation and its study then it might be an idea to inform ourselves.
mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdfhttp://
Interesting, amongst other things he picks up on a lack of immersion and player expectations as two contributing factors to the decline of MMOs.
Edit: Found it/or at least something regarding 'ends' in MMORPGS. Refer to the section 'Remove the Elder Game' from the paper linked above.Remove the Elder Game
Have your MMOs actually end for individual players. Players are playing
MMOs as a journey to self-understanding. When that journey comes to an end –
when they “win” – they will continue to play because the pressure is now off. We
know this because that’s exactly what happened in text MUDs. We only have
interminable elder games today because the business side of MMO development
companies became frightened that if they let players finish a game, the players might stop playing quicker; in fact, the opposite is true.
The great appeal of Star Wars: the Old Republic was its emphasis on story.
When players reached the end of their character’s story, that was a high point; what followed was a huge anticlimax.
The game descended into the same raid/PvP/grinding elder game as every other MMO. If, instead of adding more endgame content, the developers had stuck with their story-first mandate and created more levelling-game content, people who were playing for story – which most were – would have kept coming back with different characters to experience those new stories. As it was, they built up a few alts and then drifted away. EVE Online has no elder game; or, rather, if it does have an elder game, the whole game is that elder game. It has a shifting web of alliances from which new content continually emerges. The fact that corporations can be eliminated and that in theory it’s possible for one to win adds meaning. If it worked like the typical realm versus-realm elder game and had permanent factions that could never be eliminated, that one, tiny difference would render all conflict ultimately meaningless. An end provides meaning.
The main advantages of removing the elder game are:
· Retention. Players currently leave an MMO because they become frustrated it
just drags on and on without giving them release. It becomes boring – more
like work than play. If you acknowledge that they’ve won, they have nothing to
prove: some will indeed drift away after a month or two, but many will
continue to play just for the sheer fun of it2. This may seem unlikely, but
experience from text MUDs shows that it actually works: there are people who
are still playing MUD2 over 20 years after they “beat” it.
· Marketing. If your players leave when they like you, they’ll come back for your
next MMO. They won’t think, “oh, yes, their games are OK but eventually I got
bored”, they’ll think “oh, I remember – what an incredible experience! I’m
going to try their games again!”.
2 This assumes that your MMO is actually fun.
· Revenue model. People who pay to skip content or to pass through it quickly
will be able to replay it at a more leisurely pace once their need to “finish” has
been assuaged. This time, they may even pay to skip the content they didn’t
pay to skip last time...
· Immersion. If an ending makes sense then it makes the virtual world more
immersive. An “escape from a prisoner of war camp” game should end when
your character escapes. A “war between two factions” game should allow for
one faction actually to win. The world feels less realistic (and therefore less
immersive) otherwise.
Emphasis mineEdited by Two-Dogs on September 30, 2014 11:03AM1 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
✭Again, these pseudo-science papers about MMO raiders are just so far off from every hard core raider I've ever known.
Raiders want to be presented with challenging content that rewards them with superior items. They want to take months to clear this content to show just how challenging it was and how good they are for beating it. They want to finish sets of these superior items, take a small break (perhaps be able to benefit from their powerful equipment in other aspects of the game), and then start over with a new raid that requires the items they got in the previous raid to even kill the first boss.
Bartle is right that the "pressure is off" when they win, and how that is a good sensation. Raiders want to continue that sensation not on new characters doing the same content, but on the same characters, compounding on the previous content. Because that makes having done the old content that much more meaningful.Edited by Maverick827 on September 30, 2014 11:41AM5 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »Again, these pseudo-science papers about MMO raiders are just so far off from every hard core raider I've ever known.
It's peer-reviewed academic work. You are free to do your own research, write your own paper and present your findings to challenge it.The central issue is that MMOs don’t actually appeal to everyone. Those whom
they do appeal to, they appeal to very powerfully – even transformationally – but not
everyone wants or needs what they offer.
As Bartle makes clear, the paper hasn't been written as a manual to build the perfect game/entertain everyone for ever etc. Instead its simply presenting a critique of the current design model of many MMORPGs, exploring the failings of it with regard to certain players and suggesting well reasoned and researched reasons.
And regarding your given definition of hard core raider - there are games out there that are designed to supply them with a gear treadmills. However, I would hope that ESO doesn't have to be 'yet another' MMORPG of this style.
Personally, I'd hope that the designers invest our money in developing new ways of presenting and executing entertainment. Some of the ways which Bartle covers in the paper present interesting design choices that could be developed further.Edited by Two-Dogs on September 30, 2014 12:10PM1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well there is completion.
1. Finishing the quest line and defeating Manimarco + Molag Bal.
2. There is also the completion in the sense you got to level 50 and have now finished specialising your toon.
3. The PVP war...never really ends you just a join task force in everyones interest for PVE. But you are going to Cyrodiil to end it once and for all. You achive this once every 30 days or so.
The OP has stated he just wants better gear drop rather than OP gear. That in itself is fine. But for many better has many shades of grey and for many better = superior...or what is the point of doing something over and over again right ?
Either you are in it because you like the content and want to do it again or you are in it to get the reward at the end ? Which is it....the content or the reward ?
A lot of the problem with replayability is predictability. You know what you are going to face....how many there will be....where they will spawn. where the chest will be....where the shard will be. Remove all that predictability and you get your replayability.Edited by Rune_Relic on September 30, 2014 12:07PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Stratti✭✭✭✭✭@Two-Dogs I love your passion for the new field my only suggestion is to bring it to the practical. In my experience the casual players make up numbers but the raiders create the excitement. Lose the serious players lose the gameEdited by Stratti on September 30, 2014 12:04PM3
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Stratti✭✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Well there is completion.
1. Finishing the quest line and defeating Manimarco + Molag Bal.
2. There is also the completion in the sense you got to level 50 and have now finished specialising your toon.
3. The PVP war...never really ends you just a join task force in everyones interest for PVE. But you are going to Cyrodiil to end it once and for all. You achive this once every 30 days or so.
You just described the issue. Little replayability outside of problematic Cyrodill1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Still, players themselves must take some responsibility for choosing to care and invest themselves with the games they choose to play, simply because nobody is forcing them to play them and it doesn't matter how much they want X game title to satisfy whatever personal want they feel is unsatisfied.
Oh, but it does matter how much (and how many) players want something. There's a thing called "feedback" which developers rely on to make their games better
Referring back to the article I still cannot find, perhaps an achievable 'end' would help to provide meaning. I believe the author mentioned something along these lines. When there is no end, can there be any real meaning to our actions?
I would hope so though and I feel many players appreciate the game for journey. Of course, a good journey also needs ending and....
...I really wish I could find that paper.
You speak about there having to be an "end" to an MMO, but what you fail to address is when.
The why side also fascinates me. There are a lot of players who feel disappointed when a game "ends". There are a lot of people still playing older Elder Scrolls games and downloading mods to them. I include myself in this category, I've been playing (quite casually though) & adding content to Morrowind for over 10 years.
Yet, there are players who enjoy the pressure (competitiveness) of MMOs, which Mr. Bartle fails to mention.
So instead of coming up with other reasons for the anticlimax (such as the quality of the content itself & systems in place), the author goes on to state how "most players were playing for story" (without providing any evidence to this) and then, instead of that being the "end" for the MMO, he preaches for more stories? I'm not sure how you can take this hypocriticism seriously
"Boring" is extremely subjective, if you don't like the MMO just quit. You can very well justand be done with it, no one is forcing you to play if you find it "boring".Spoilerbeat Molag Bal
"Sheer fun" lasts as long as you have (fun) things to do, without making them repetitive. You complain about MMOs becoming boring and "more like work than play", yet want them to be more repetitive.
Sure, there might be three people on 20 year old potatoes computers still playing MUD2, that is not, however, the audience I'd market AAA titles to.
You don't want players leaving an MMORPG. If everyone leaves an MMORPG, who are the people who buy it going to play with? MMORPG stands for Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game.
MMOs also thrive on the community aspects of the genre, where you make friends & form strong communities (guilds). If these guilds all die out once the members "finish" the game, you lose this aspect.
Didn't know you can pay to "skip content". Care to elaborate on this?
There is only a monthly subscription in ESO and players choose on their own what they decide to do or not. Also, there are people who do not skip content, and instead finish everything in order they come.
Yet another weak argument. There are wars in the real world that have taken hours, days, months, years, even hundreds of years. Having one war (or one story for that matter) drag across the course of an MMO hardly feels unrealistic.
An ending doesn't make a virtual world any more or less immersive in single player games either, it's just an ending.Emphasis mine1 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭@Two-Dogs I love your passion for the new field my only suggestion is to bring it to the practical. In my experience the casual players make up numbers but the raiders create the excitement. Lose the serious players lose the game
Aye, I agree. I realise this is getting off topic so I'l keep it brief.
I should clarify that I have no issue with raiding content or design choices. The quality of its execution within ESO seems to be your domain and I'm happy to listen and support your drive to get a decent raiding model implemented in ESO.
However, within the context of raiding/raiding game design, I believe that we can take it as read that the 'raider' section of the gaming populace has been/can readily be catered for - we've found what presses their buttons. Job done.
As I hope I've made clear, I'd like ESO's development, based on the research that's still ongoing into player types, player psychology and the like, to cater to other sections of the gaming populace.
One example would be additional tools for role-players, with quest-building tools for them to entertain their friends. (Something to consider: There wouldn't have to be empowerment rewards, gear for example, simply because for this section of player base, role-playing is its own reward. Granted, a single player can enjoy many activities and such terminology as 'raider' or 'roleplayer' are labels rather than exact descriptions of a players style of play.)
Another could be small-scale competitive PvP, such as (but not limited to) the arena style of play. I've seen racing mentioned more than a few times - the idea of horse/mount racing in ESO would be very appealing, to me at least. Then we could bring in breeding, additional food options, wagers, audience support etc
Edit: Read DDuke's post. I really couldn't begin to comment. I'm not even sure what the intent of his reply is.
Edited by Two-Dogs on September 30, 2014 12:39PM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Edit: Read DDuke's post. I really couldn't begin to comment. I'm not even sure what the intent of his reply is.
Intent was to debunk that whole "research" you just posted, which I seem to have accomplished.
One more thing to add: the writer of that "research" is the author of "MUD1", "MUD2", which he constantly tries to promote in that comedy script of his.
Sounds more like bitterness, given the popularity of his games
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Two-Dogs✭✭✭
Intent was to debunk that whole "research" you just posted, which I seem to have accomplished.
Yes, yes you have.
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Being a Hard Core raider, I don't particularly enjoy raiding for weeks and days just to get some loot, I do it because it's the only interesting thing an MMORPG has to offer. Once you've played 4 or 5 of them, the leveling/questing process is pretty much always the same and then some more of the same, it's just boring and feels useless since I know I'll have to go through it again on the next MMO I play and I also know I'm not getting anything out of it by clearing it slowly (it's not worth my time, especially in ESO with the sucky itemization). The challenge and the excitement are then found in end game content and competing with others and yourself to get better gear and stats.
It actually makes sense to me that at one point a faction from one of the alliances should win and then there could be a new threat to tamriel we would have to fight under the reign of x or y (maybe with the possibility to start civil wars in order to get independence from the Imperium or to replace the emperor?) you could also have the emperor be attackable anywhere in the world but if you die attacking him you loose 1 level ^^, if you win, a new emperor gets crowned.
This would take months of development at the very least though but I'd definitively play that game... I'd keep raiding instances for the loot/times etc, but if there was a way to actually make a mark or really modify whole aspects of the world by competing with other players (you know, creating something different and original): ohhh joy ^^ . This would also most likely bring back all of the hardcore MMORPG guilds that quit the game when they saw how repetitive and sucky PVP is.Edited by TehMagnus on September 30, 2014 2:14PM0 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
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It's peer-reviewed academic work. You are free to do your own research, write your own paper and present your findings to challenge it.
Who cares, it's evidently made by people who never raided a day.And regarding your given definition of hard core raider - there are games out there that are designed to supply them with a gear treadmills. However, I would hope that ESO doesn't have to be 'yet another' MMORPG of this style.
Too bad, hard core raiders are NOT after "gear treadmills" at all.
They are after ACHIEVEMENT. The gear is just an useful badge. It's also a "developers acknowledgement for the efforts spent at completing their content" and this is why raiders can feel the rewards suck when they do suck.
Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
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