No End Game = No MMO
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Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yep.
Here's the thing that people who ARE VR 10+ seem to ignore:
Many (most? pretty sure WoW stats support that most players don't do end game content) people aren't in a race to reach the end. They're taking their time, playing a mix of other games, not playing as often, etc. They aren't in a race to "reach the end". They fully expect that more content will come out before they actually reach the end such that they never actually *will* reach the end.
Had ESO been a F2P game this reasonment would be OK. Let the developers catch up while you play something else.
But in a sub based game? I pay an AAA sub fee that keeps ticking even if I play something else. That is, you are paying ESO for not playing it and play at something else. This sounds wrong.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO0 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
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Had ESO been a F2P game this reasonment would be OK. Let the developers catch up while you play something else.
But in a sub based game? I pay an AAA sub fee that keeps ticking even if I play something else. That is, you are paying ESO for not playing it and play at something else. This sounds wrong.
Best mr Vahrokh, again you confuse me!
From admire most of your very good, solid, short and to the point post. Always with some sort of reasoning, you confuse me again!
Um, ESO is VERY playable. You havn't done "everything" bud. Sorry :-(
And I mean "everything", including all stuff "you" or anyone would see as pointless?
What's your take on this 10 x all stats increase? So people would see difference more?
And you have to be impressed what Sage have done with the Justice system?
Subscription based is more then "what we get when someone is "done".
We gets new "content" regulary. If someone is faster.......is not included in the price.
Subscription also means 2 main factors, which is important for me at least.
1. The company can plan longer term and don't have to keep DEVS on temp contracts like F2P games. For me it's security, as long as the MMO have players!
2. A sub based MMO with NO option to "free trial", gets me rid of all those muppets who where here at launch. And less gold farmers. It is a certain kind of MMO player who rather buy a sword for Euros, then earn it in game. I don't want those people! Call me a MMOist!Edited by Cogo on October 4, 2014 4:59AMOghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Best mr Vahrokh, again you confuse me!
From admire most of your very good, solid, short and to the point post. Always with some sort of reasoning, you confuse me again!
Um, ESO is VERY playable. You havn't done "everything" bud. Sorry :-(
And I mean "everything", including all stuff "you" or anyone would see as pointless?
What's your take on this 10 x all stats increase? So people would see difference more?
And you have to be impressed what Sage have done with the Justice system?
Subscription based is more then "what we get when someone is "done".
The only things I don't have yet are:
- max PvP rank (who does?)
- the newest trial done, it's very very hard to find people to do it.
- veteran arena done, again those who can do it are an handful and only do it with their closest friends.
ESO is indeed very playable but not much re-playable. I can stomach just so many Shadaa's tears, soloing (non Craglorn) public instances and dolmens and whatsnot.
I have enough Aether gear to put caster and tank set (including tank jewelry), including some double caster Aether pieces.
All of this, playing about 6h a week, which I dare call "not really hard core".
I can say I did have the joy to level up before the veteran areas nerf so I had a lot of fun with actually challenging content. It slowed me down at least
I entered Craplorn at VR 11.5. To get that high I really have done everything in the various maps. Every dolmen at least twice. Some favourite instances 3-4 times each. VR 7-10 public instances at least 5-6 times each. Every tiniest quest and puzzles including most of those rare "out of the way" guys (guy with bandits, lone summoneer, poor guy asking for money...). A ton of odd achievements like "Nose diver" and so on. I went to explore every single out of the way small island (often finding bosses and even a dolmen nobody even knew existed and just skipped them). I have got every epic recipe, every motif, trinket, anything, every studied trait but nirnhorned (for obvious reasons).
I really loved completing ESO and wish each map would last 3 times, I am a relentless questing lover and just can't stop doing step after step to see how they end.
Having levelled before the VR nerf, you can imagine how long it's been since those days. Days pass slowly at Craglorn. Trials are ok... until you start quickrunning them, that is, they are in super farm status.
What then? I have tried going back... I'd even be happy if I could replay the < level 50 quests again - just "buffed" to VR 14. But I can't.
As I said above, game's playable but not really re-playable so I go there and find happy people thanking me - their hero - for having saved them from <enter here bad guys / disease / cultists> and that's it.
Basically imagine I am a guy who loves a certain author's books and devours them. Then I long for more! (Notice: not ESO hater, but exceedingly lover).
I don't truly care to get: gear, skill points, teddy bears, pets, exclusive gadgets, "stamps of eliteness", additional levels, champion points.
I'd just want to do more quests, storylines (with or without instances, with or without 4 men I don't care). I'd love to become an Agent who solves kingdom issues...
... and all I get are some uber-farmed Craglorn instances people seem to hate to do.
When there are some who do want to do those instances, I have to stomach the 10th "Elemental army" chain, or the Upper Craglorn 2h timed farm and so on.
To put in perspective with others sub based MMOs: in Istaria I played up to 18h a day (!!!!!) and it took close to an year to "complete" it. Complete means really doing everything possible.
In WoW I "slowed down" to no more than 8-10h a day (!!!), cleared everything possible, even created my own hard core guild (later merged with another), organizing 2 x 40 men raids+ every week. I always had something to do for months and months. The "in WoW you'd complete content in a week" statements I have read here are pretty much bollocks, because even playing a top guild did not make you complete everything so fast for everybody and there was always something to motivate people to "grind again" (even just to get pieces of legendary weapons, AQ40 rares and so on).
In ESO? I play 6-8h a week tops (there are guildies who read this, feel free to say if it's true or not) and I am beating my head on the wall to find something to do. Yet it's the same 15 a month I have paid to the other sub based MMOs.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
Here are my Elder Scrolls Online videos
Here is the Sorcerer Helper addon I have updated to work on current ESO5 -
You talk about having fun in AA & Hel Ra and next claim the difficulty, fun & feeling of accomplishment are the meat of the experience? Sorry, but if any average pug can clear AA/Hel Ra, how is that difficult in any way? And are you still getting a "feeling of accomplishment" after clearing those for 571th time?
As for the icing on your cake, achievements are one time only and loot no one in their right mind would wear. So yeah, about that icing...
You should know these things, are you new to the end game?
Just because some content isn't challenging for you does not mean it is not for the whole community, so again stop trying to speak for everyone, you do not represent anyone but yourself. Yes I still have fun and feel accomplished after completing it 573 times
your completely wrong about the loot, last time I checked that warlock set is one of the MOST used sets in all of the game. What's wrong with achievements being one time only ? Achievements are tied to the dye system so in essence they too are a form of progression even if they are only for a vanity use.
Skill points are the life blood of the system? Are we playing the same game?
How many skill points do you get by running end game Trials/dungeons?
Most people I know have been capped with skill points forever (apart from some you can get from PvP ranks). I have 273 Skill Points, while requiring only about a 100 (which you should have by level 50) to max. all relevant passives & skills.
For reference, this is how many skill points you roughly need for both PvE & PvP builds using different armour & weapon types: http://tinyurl.com/n4wyk73
Also, you can easily respec your skills (or morphs) at any point.
If you think skill points are what keeps end game focused people around, you are delusional.
Come on now with all the hours you have put into this game and you still don't know where skill points come
fromEdited by Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO on October 7, 2014 1:39AM0 -
Two-Dogs✭✭✭Gentlemen.
I, and my kin, have learnt the language of content developed by folks paid by a group who aim to pay the minimum for the most returned.
For my efforts, I demand shiny things.
For without shiny things, how will we know we have achieved?
Without shiny things, how will we know we have spent our lives with worth?
::
Side-note: Let's be honest. Folks will look for things they don't have, be it spiritual/visceral/intellectual/emotional/misc - pick a rubric.
Some folks need digital entertainment to supply what they aren't getting and that's OK. Just don't fall into the trap of trying to reason with a junkie, regardless of their fix.
Meanwhile, those of us in academia - reading, writing and politics forbid teaching in academia - will enjoy these... what can we call them? Digital soap-boxes? Virtual water-holes? Synthetic tribes? Please, pick your in-vogue sound-bite terminology.
Back to OP - Sure. Let's see more of X content - and why not? As long as X and Z is supplied with equal gusto.
Job done.
Edit: Typ0sEdited by Two-Dogs on October 7, 2014 3:05AM0 -
kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭This is rule 1 . How have Z missed this. I am bitterly disappointed with there being no end game here .
Before any vitriol there are a few key components of end game that will keep someone playing for a year or two in the same level.
1. Gear progression
2. Tiered progression with casual at the bottom and hardcore up the top with rewards that represent where you are on the ladder
3. Solo progression to improve your toon on a grind, daily quest or anything that will motivate you. Not all gaming time will there be a group so this keeps you occupied.
4. Interface for finding groups - whether it is a global channel or an interface but it needs to work
5. Content that is challenging but allows for easier progression in the beginning so as not to burn groups completely - so they can at least have a kill while working on tougher bosses
None of that is here in any real way that will compel people to play. Hell I love the game in its design, graphics etc but it's not enough . 5 days to go and I'm not sure whether I will renew . I need to see some thing that tells me they recognise an issue.
The silent majority are with you friend, I have been saying all this stuff since beta no love from the loud demanding obnoxious crowd, but there are many of us who are waiting and hoping for these things to be added.
I don't think it's to late.1 -
ruff82✭Moreover, why does everyone seem to forget that we are still in the first year of ESO's release. Look how many major content updates ESO has done in less than 1 year! How often does WoW do major content updates again (even in its prime)? What other MMO does major content updates this often?1
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kelly.medleyb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Moreover, why does everyone seem to forget that we are still in the first year of ESO's release. Look how many major content updates ESO has done in less than 1 year! How often does WoW do major content updates again (even in its prime)? What other MMO does major content updates this often?
Agreed, but that isn't the argument here. It's more a request for some swift changes to make progression much more vertical.
The only thing I see stopping this from happening his hordes of super casuals who don't want other people to have better gear than them.0 -
seanvwolf✭✭✭✭8-10 hours a week?
It takes about 50 hours (if you are a speed player) to 150 hours (for those who take their time) to clear the first alliance. Roughly that much or more for the other two alliances after reaching VR. That's between 150 to 450 hours of gameplay just on the non-dungeon, unexpanded PvE content. Throw in expansion content, achievement hunting, trials, PvP content and you've got much more playtime. By your playtime estimates and date of post in September, if you truly had nothing left to do, you should have reached that number around 15 weeks in, or around the end of June or so. That's close to four months of play for just main content for ONE character class.
If you were working on multiple classes, with your current schedule, you wouldn't be fretting over lack of content. If you are completing one alliance's content in under 50 hours you are skipping content or exploiting, and unfortunately ZOS can't create an infinite amount of content just for you to consume... anything they could do would only create artificial engagement... 50 hours to get that special item or new singular achievement.
I think the reason they are preparing content in this way is so those coming to the game a year from now aren't chasing infinity and beyond in order to be classed with those who have been playing for awhile.
I'd like to see them also expand on some of the existing quest zones in the existing PvE zones... to make replaying those zones more engaging.0 -
Anazasi✭✭✭✭✭
✭End game content? wow that's like asking the world what isle at Wal-Mart do you want to shop in when you hit 60. The unique character of this MMO is, once you hit max level V14, you can continue to gain skills in various other build makeups. The customizable feature that this MMO offers, is outstanding. Working as intended, well its still beta. When I started playing the game it was about reaching 50, then it was about reaching V10, then it was reaching V12, now its reaching V14 (honestly a huge turn off I hate it when games think OMG we have no content lets just raise the level cap.) However, Progression is found in discovering new play styles and new abilities. Not in I've done all the quests now what do I do?0 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Nope, not my first MMO
The problem isn't the lack of content, of which there is plenty.
The problem is lack of replayability.
Once you've done something once, there's nothing rewarding that makes you do it again, which you would know if you had read previous posts on this thread.
I've been emperor in PvP (which I got as VR2) & spent a lot of time there (we're talking about 1000+ hours), I've done every single quest & dungeon in the game and I'm standing at 12535 achievement points. Also I have 3 alts, one is lvl 37, another lvl 14 & one lvl 4. So you're yet again very wrong with your assumptions
Please read previous posts in the thread if you want to find out what the problem is with end game in ESO (I'd start with the OP)
Did read OP. Read every message. Sorry you hold so much value of your own opinion that other people are "very wrong". I'm surprised ZoS hasn't hired you to fix their game since you obviously have all the answers. I have an idea for you. It's a bit crazy, but I think it would help you a lot with this game. People call it "outside". I hear spending 1000+ hours there really makes this game more enjoyable.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭End game content? wow that's like asking the world what isle at Wal-Mart do you want to shop in when you hit 60. The unique character of this MMO is, once you hit max level V14, you can continue to gain skills in various other build makeups. The customizable feature that this MMO offers, is outstanding. Working as intended, well its still beta. When I started playing the game it was about reaching 50, then it was about reaching V10, then it was reaching V12, now its reaching V14 (honestly a huge turn off I hate it when games think OMG we have no content lets just raise the level cap.) However, Progression is found in discovering new play styles and new abilities. Not in I've done all the quests now what do I do?
After 10+ years of playing MMOs and (20+) RPGs I already know what kind of playstyle I enjoy. ESO doesnt do LAS in any exceptional way or offer anything revolutionary in this regard. By time I reached VR3 or 4 I had already unlocked all the skills which can support my preferred playstyle. So yes, I would enjoy some proper progression.P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
DirkaSnivels✭✭I haven't gotten to end-game ESO yet, but I think the conundrum is figuring out what exactly end-game is, what players are expecting when they come into the game, and whether or not it's worth a subscription fee.
Guild Wars 2 has end-game so-to-speak, but it's not the norm that EQ established and that WoW reinforced. Too many people often go into an mmo expecting something like WoW, just in a different universe. Frankly, I'm glad end-game from mmo to mmo has been branching out, because it gives the player a different experience than what they're used to. Also, GW2 is a one-time purchase and has an in-game store, but it's end-game probably doesn't justify a subscription fee.
I played WoW for about 3 years straight from late Classic to a few months into Wrath of the Lich King (before that, 2 years of RuneScape). Sure, it was fun, but the illusion that people, like me, stuck to one singular mmorpg for years because it was absolutely amazing needs to be broken. We stuck to them because the industry at the time offered very little variety, especially at that level of quality.
I don't believe sticking to one game is particular healthy because the player is neglecting all the other experiences they could be having with other mmos or regular games in general. Customer loyalty with subscription-based games in this day-and-age is overrated and publishers should be marketing around that fact. If it's a game like WoW, EVE, or RS that offer years of things to do in the game, they can get away with a subscription fee because you can randomly decide on something you want to accomplish within that payed month, as miscellaneous as the objective in question may seem. ESO? I really have yet to find out.Edited by DirkaSnivels on November 10, 2014 4:43PM1 -
Hard Fact said for decades about all games;
This (plug in any name) MMO = No Endgame
Take a moment and think, a good MMO is like a life. The end is you are dead. Get out there and make you own life in the game. Hell, I havnt hardly touched any of the 'endgame' stuff cuz my two main toons are 13 and just finishing Cadwells Gold!
Pretty sure these thoughts always come from the ilk that auto bot grind etc. and dont take the time to stop and smell the Dragonthorn.Astaria DødfurstinnaOfficial Hunter Community Lead DAOC(Pendragon Beta through Catacombs release)Look at this but dont QQ: http://pcpartpicker.com/b/hfxYcf1 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Death_Princess wrote: »Hard Fact said for decades about all games;
This (plug in any name) MMO = No Endgame
Take a moment and think, a good MMO is like a life. The end is you are dead. Get out there and make you own life in the game. Hell, I havnt hardly touched any of the 'endgame' stuff cuz my two main toons are 13 and just finishing Cadwells Gold!
Make my own life in game? A sandbox game ESO is not. You go through your leveling content and youre at endgame. This is an MMO term which does not mean the end of the game but rather a shift in playstyle. This is needed as the devs can hardly produce questing content at the rate comparable to how fast the players consume it.P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
Woolenthreads✭✭✭✭*self tries to recall whether Eve-Online ever had an "Endgame"* I think Eve just had Personal Ambition as an endgame and you were playing that right from the start.Oooh look, lot's of Butterflies! Wait! Butterflies? Get out of here Sheo, stop bugging me!
Having issues with Provisioning Writs? A list of problem Writs and people willing to help in game can be found in this Thread0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Endgame in WOW is dungeons to gear up to raids.khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »
Make my own life in game? A sandbox game ESO is not. You go through your leveling content and youre at endgame. This is an MMO term which does not mean the end of the game but rather a shift in playstyle. This is needed as the devs can hardly produce questing content at the rate comparable to how fast the players consume it.
Pretty much the same in ESO, reach VR14, craft some good gear or get an guildmate to craft it, get an better set, raid to get better set yet.
Or PvP, pvp in ESO is very cool if in a good group.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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The difference is that, in WoW, you run dungeons to gear up for raids, and then you run those raids to gear up for more challenging raids. In ESO, you craft gear to gear up for raids for...no reason.Endgame in WOW is dungeons to gear up to raids.
Pretty much the same in ESO, reach VR14, craft some good gear or get an guildmate to craft it, get an better set, raid to get better set yet.
Or PvP, pvp in ESO is very cool if in a good group.0 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭While I appreciate the OP sharing their opinion and suggestion.... No thank you.What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!0
