No End Game = No MMO

Vahrokh

GnatB wrote: »

Yep.

Here's the thing that people who ARE VR 10+ seem to ignore:
Many (most? pretty sure WoW stats support that most players don't do end game content) people aren't in a race to reach the end. They're taking their time, playing a mix of other games, not playing as often, etc. They aren't in a race to "reach the end". They fully expect that more content will come out before they actually reach the end such that they never actually *will* reach the end.

Had ESO been a F2P game this reasonment would be OK. Let the developers catch up while you play something else.

But in a sub based game? I pay an AAA sub fee that keeps ticking even if I play something else. That is, you are paying ESO for not playing it and play at something else. This sounds wrong.

Cogo

Vahrokh wrote: »

Had ESO been a F2P game this reasonment would be OK. Let the developers catch up while you play something else.

But in a sub based game? I pay an AAA sub fee that keeps ticking even if I play something else. That is, you are paying ESO for not playing it and play at something else. This sounds wrong.

Best mr Vahrokh, again you confuse me!
From admire most of your very good, solid, short and to the point post. Always with some sort of reasoning, you confuse me again!

Um, ESO is VERY playable. You havn't done "everything" bud. Sorry :-(
And I mean "everything", including all stuff "you" or anyone would see as pointless?

What's your take on this 10 x all stats increase? So people would see difference more?

And you have to be impressed what Sage have done with the Justice system?

Subscription based is more then "what we get when someone is "done".
We gets new "content" regulary. If someone is faster.......is not included in the price.
Subscription also means 2 main factors, which is important for me at least.
1. The company can plan longer term and don't have to keep DEVS on temp contracts like F2P games. For me it's security, as long as the MMO have players!
2. A sub based MMO with NO option to "free trial", gets me rid of all those muppets who where here at launch. And less gold farmers. It is a certain kind of MMO player who rather buy a sword for Euros, then earn it in game. I don't want those people! Call me a MMOist!

Vahrokh

Cogo wrote: »

Best mr Vahrokh, again you confuse me!
From admire most of your very good, solid, short and to the point post. Always with some sort of reasoning, you confuse me again!

Um, ESO is VERY playable. You havn't done "everything" bud. Sorry :-(
And I mean "everything", including all stuff "you" or anyone would see as pointless?

What's your take on this 10 x all stats increase? So people would see difference more?

And you have to be impressed what Sage have done with the Justice system?

Subscription based is more then "what we get when someone is "done".

The only things I don't have yet are:

- max PvP rank (who does?)
- the newest trial done, it's very very hard to find people to do it.
- veteran arena done, again those who can do it are an handful and only do it with their closest friends.

ESO is indeed very playable but not much re-playable. I can stomach just so many Shadaa's tears, soloing (non Craglorn) public instances and dolmens and whatsnot.

I have enough Aether gear to put caster and tank set (including tank jewelry), including some double caster Aether pieces.

All of this, playing about 6h a week, which I dare call "not really hard core".

I can say I did have the joy to level up before the veteran areas nerf so I had a lot of fun with actually challenging content. It slowed me down at least
I entered Craplorn at VR 11.5. To get that high I really have done everything in the various maps. Every dolmen at least twice. Some favourite instances 3-4 times each. VR 7-10 public instances at least 5-6 times each. Every tiniest quest and puzzles including most of those rare "out of the way" guys (guy with bandits, lone summoneer, poor guy asking for money...). A ton of odd achievements like "Nose diver" and so on. I went to explore every single out of the way small island (often finding bosses and even a dolmen nobody even knew existed and just skipped them). I have got every epic recipe, every motif, trinket, anything, every studied trait but nirnhorned (for obvious reasons).

I really loved completing ESO and wish each map would last 3 times, I am a relentless questing lover and just can't stop doing step after step to see how they end.

Having levelled before the VR nerf, you can imagine how long it's been since those days. Days pass slowly at Craglorn. Trials are ok... until you start quickrunning them, that is, they are in super farm status.

What then? I have tried going back... I'd even be happy if I could replay the < level 50 quests again - just "buffed" to VR 14. But I can't.

As I said above, game's playable but not really re-playable so I go there and find happy people thanking me - their hero - for having saved them from <enter here bad guys / disease / cultists> and that's it.

Basically imagine I am a guy who loves a certain author's books and devours them. Then I long for more! (Notice: not ESO hater, but exceedingly lover).


I don't truly care to get: gear, skill points, teddy bears, pets, exclusive gadgets, "stamps of eliteness", additional levels, champion points.

I'd just want to do more quests, storylines (with or without instances, with or without 4 men I don't care). I'd love to become an Agent who solves kingdom issues...

... and all I get are some uber-farmed Craglorn instances people seem to hate to do.
When there are some who do want to do those instances, I have to stomach the 10th "Elemental army" chain, or the Upper Craglorn 2h timed farm and so on.


To put in perspective with others sub based MMOs: in Istaria I played up to 18h a day (!!!!!) and it took close to an year to "complete" it. Complete means really doing everything possible.
In WoW I "slowed down" to no more than 8-10h a day (!!!), cleared everything possible, even created my own hard core guild (later merged with another), organizing 2 x 40 men raids+ every week. I always had something to do for months and months. The "in WoW you'd complete content in a week" statements I have read here are pretty much bollocks, because even playing a top guild did not make you complete everything so fast for everybody and there was always something to motivate people to "grind again" (even just to get pieces of legendary weapons, AQ40 rares and so on).

In ESO? I play 6-8h a week tops (there are guildies who read this, feel free to say if it's true or not) and I am beating my head on the wall to find something to do. Yet it's the same 15 a month I have paid to the other sub based MMOs.

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

If you read my previous post, no problem if you did not, I am VR14, and have cleared all the same content you have. And you know what ? I still have a blast clearing AA and Hel Ra, still have fun challenging myself on the DSA.

Well, good job at getting to VR14, unlike most of the people who comment here about end game. Now, since you're still having fun on clearing AA/Hel Ra & challenging DSA (normal mode I assume), can you say you're happy with the thrash loot you are getting? I'm not. My guild mates are not. Practically no other people I've talked to are happy with the drops (Aether set being the only one equal with some crafted sets).

There you go assuming again, you know what they say about assuming, it makes an ass of U, my DSA experience is in vet mode, and I don't know but maybe you and I have different methods to why we do things, but the challenged provided in the arena is exactly what players on this forum have been asking for, this fact alone keeps me interested. The difficulty of the content, the fun, the feeling of accomplishment are the meat of the experience for me, loot and achievements are icing on the cake. This is something I believe that the older MMO crowd will relate to. If it's fun it has replay value it's as simple as that.

You talk about having fun in AA & Hel Ra and next claim the difficulty, fun & feeling of accomplishment are the meat of the experience? Sorry, but if any average pug can clear AA/Hel Ra, how is that difficult in any way? And are you still getting a "feeling of accomplishment" after clearing those for 571th time?
As for the icing on your cake, achievements are one time only and loot no one in their right mind would wear. So yeah, about that icing...
You should know these things, are you new to the end game?

Just because some content isn't challenging for you does not mean it is not for the whole community, so again stop trying to speak for everyone, you do not represent anyone but yourself. Yes I still have fun and feel accomplished after completing it 573 times your completely wrong about the loot, last time I checked that warlock set is one of the MOST used sets in all of the game. What's wrong with achievements being one time only ? Achievements are tied to the dye system so in essence they too are a form of progression even if they are only for a vanity use.

DDuke wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

The character progression I spoke of does happen in the VR lvls, and will continue to happen when the champion system is live.

Mind elaborating on how character progression happens in VR levels? How do our characters progress exactly? ...Didn't think so.

Also, this champion system will force me to level 8 alts to VR14 in case I want to truly maximize my character's Champion Points.

And I will do so, without complaining. Still doesn't prevent gear from being another factor (this would in fact balance the game, as people who spend more time getting gear have less time leveling alts & Champion Points).

I like how you answered your own question there speaking for me, just classic I explained in my original post how the current system supports horizontal progression. Skill points are the life blood of the system, if you really have completed cadwells silver and gold you should know how much stronger, simply by the vast amount of skill points acquired your character becomes through the addition of more passives, the ability fill other roles, change play style through the use of different armor and weapon types this is horizontal progression. And it will only continue to grow as more skills lines are add / expanded (Ex. Dark brotherhood and thieves guild) this is horizontal progression, something I already knew but thanks for the links anyways

Skill points are the life blood of the system? Are we playing the same game?

How many skill points do you get by running end game Trials/dungeons?

Most people I know have been capped with skill points forever (apart from some you can get from PvP ranks). I have 273 Skill Points, while requiring only about a 100 (which you should have by level 50) to max. all relevant passives & skills.

For reference, this is how many skill points you roughly need for both PvE & PvP builds using different armour & weapon types: http://tinyurl.com/n4wyk73

Also, you can easily respec your skills (or morphs) at any point.

If you think skill points are what keeps end game focused people around, you are delusional.

Come on now with all the hours you have put into this game and you still don't know where skill points come
from

Two-Dogs

Gentlemen.

I, and my kin, have learnt the language of content developed by folks paid by a group who aim to pay the minimum for the most returned.

For my efforts, I demand shiny things.

For without shiny things, how will we know we have achieved?

Without shiny things, how will we know we have spent our lives with worth?

::

Side-note: Let's be honest. Folks will look for things they don't have, be it spiritual/visceral/intellectual/emotional/misc - pick a rubric.

Some folks need digital entertainment to supply what they aren't getting and that's OK. Just don't fall into the trap of trying to reason with a junkie, regardless of their fix.

Meanwhile, those of us in academia - reading, writing and politics forbid teaching in academia - will enjoy these... what can we call them? Digital soap-boxes? Virtual water-holes? Synthetic tribes? Please, pick your in-vogue sound-bite terminology.

Back to OP - Sure. Let's see more of X content - and why not? As long as X and Z is supplied with equal gusto.

Job done.

Edit: Typ0s

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Stratti wrote: »

This is rule 1 . How have Z missed this. I am bitterly disappointed with there being no end game here .

Before any vitriol there are a few key components of end game that will keep someone playing for a year or two in the same level.

1. Gear progression
2. Tiered progression with casual at the bottom and hardcore up the top with rewards that represent where you are on the ladder
3. Solo progression to improve your toon on a grind, daily quest or anything that will motivate you. Not all gaming time will there be a group so this keeps you occupied.
4. Interface for finding groups - whether it is a global channel or an interface but it needs to work
5. Content that is challenging but allows for easier progression in the beginning so as not to burn groups completely - so they can at least have a kill while working on tougher bosses

None of that is here in any real way that will compel people to play. Hell I love the game in its design, graphics etc but it's not enough . 5 days to go and I'm not sure whether I will renew . I need to see some thing that tells me they recognise an issue.

The silent majority are with you friend, I have been saying all this stuff since beta no love from the loud demanding obnoxious crowd, but there are many of us who are waiting and hoping for these things to be added.

I don't think it's to late.

ruff82

Why do all WoW fanboys and fangirls forget how WoW was in its first year? SMH

ruff82

Moreover, why does everyone seem to forget that we are still in the first year of ESO's release. Look how many major content updates ESO has done in less than 1 year! How often does WoW do major content updates again (even in its prime)? What other MMO does major content updates this often?

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

ruff82 wrote: »

Moreover, why does everyone seem to forget that we are still in the first year of ESO's release. Look how many major content updates ESO has done in less than 1 year! How often does WoW do major content updates again (even in its prime)? What other MMO does major content updates this often?

Agreed, but that isn't the argument here. It's more a request for some swift changes to make progression much more vertical.

The only thing I see stopping this from happening his hordes of super casuals who don't want other people to have better gear than them.

seanvwolf

8-10 hours a week?

It takes about 50 hours (if you are a speed player) to 150 hours (for those who take their time) to clear the first alliance. Roughly that much or more for the other two alliances after reaching VR. That's between 150 to 450 hours of gameplay just on the non-dungeon, unexpanded PvE content. Throw in expansion content, achievement hunting, trials, PvP content and you've got much more playtime. By your playtime estimates and date of post in September, if you truly had nothing left to do, you should have reached that number around 15 weeks in, or around the end of June or so. That's close to four months of play for just main content for ONE character class.

If you were working on multiple classes, with your current schedule, you wouldn't be fretting over lack of content. If you are completing one alliance's content in under 50 hours you are skipping content or exploiting, and unfortunately ZOS can't create an infinite amount of content just for you to consume... anything they could do would only create artificial engagement... 50 hours to get that special item or new singular achievement.

I think the reason they are preparing content in this way is so those coming to the game a year from now aren't chasing infinity and beyond in order to be classed with those who have been playing for awhile.

I'd like to see them also expand on some of the existing quest zones in the existing PvE zones... to make replaying those zones more engaging.

Anazasi

End game content? wow that's like asking the world what isle at Wal-Mart do you want to shop in when you hit 60. The unique character of this MMO is, once you hit max level V14, you can continue to gain skills in various other build makeups. The customizable feature that this MMO offers, is outstanding. Working as intended, well its still beta. When I started playing the game it was about reaching 50, then it was about reaching V10, then it was reaching V12, now its reaching V14 (honestly a huge turn off I hate it when games think OMG we have no content lets just raise the level cap.) However, Progression is found in discovering new play styles and new abilities. Not in I've done all the quests now what do I do?

deepseamk20b14_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

This has to be your first MMO. We get updates almost every 6 weeks with more stuff. Do you expect Skyrim where people/third parties make addons for the game thus constantly changing it? That's not how an MMO works. So far ESO has had more content at a faster pace than basically any other MMO I have played. Perhaps you should of played different alts to 50 instead of taking one straight through all VR levels. There are a ton of dungeons and other stuff to do in the game plus PvP. It's like you're comparing a games endgame from something that has been out for years and saying ESO doesn't have enough even though it's been out a fraction of the time. Sorry, but I do not sympathize with you.

Nope, not my first MMO

The problem isn't the lack of content, of which there is plenty.
The problem is lack of replayability.
Once you've done something once, there's nothing rewarding that makes you do it again, which you would know if you had read previous posts on this thread.

I've been emperor in PvP (which I got as VR2) & spent a lot of time there (we're talking about 1000+ hours), I've done every single quest & dungeon in the game and I'm standing at 12535 achievement points. Also I have 3 alts, one is lvl 37, another lvl 14 & one lvl 4. So you're yet again very wrong with your assumptions

Please read previous posts in the thread if you want to find out what the problem is with end game in ESO (I'd start with the OP)

Did read OP. Read every message. Sorry you hold so much value of your own opinion that other people are "very wrong". I'm surprised ZoS hasn't hired you to fix their game since you obviously have all the answers. I have an idea for you. It's a bit crazy, but I think it would help you a lot with this game. People call it "outside". I hear spending 1000+ hours there really makes this game more enjoyable.

khele23eb17_ESO

Anazasi wrote: »

End game content? wow that's like asking the world what isle at Wal-Mart do you want to shop in when you hit 60. The unique character of this MMO is, once you hit max level V14, you can continue to gain skills in various other build makeups. The customizable feature that this MMO offers, is outstanding. Working as intended, well its still beta. When I started playing the game it was about reaching 50, then it was about reaching V10, then it was reaching V12, now its reaching V14 (honestly a huge turn off I hate it when games think OMG we have no content lets just raise the level cap.) However, Progression is found in discovering new play styles and new abilities. Not in I've done all the quests now what do I do?

After 10+ years of playing MMOs and (20+) RPGs I already know what kind of playstyle I enjoy. ESO doesnt do LAS in any exceptional way or offer anything revolutionary in this regard. By time I reached VR3 or 4 I had already unlocked all the skills which can support my preferred playstyle. So yes, I would enjoy some proper progression.

DirkaSnivels

I haven't gotten to end-game ESO yet, but I think the conundrum is figuring out what exactly end-game is, what players are expecting when they come into the game, and whether or not it's worth a subscription fee.

Guild Wars 2 has end-game so-to-speak, but it's not the norm that EQ established and that WoW reinforced. Too many people often go into an mmo expecting something like WoW, just in a different universe. Frankly, I'm glad end-game from mmo to mmo has been branching out, because it gives the player a different experience than what they're used to. Also, GW2 is a one-time purchase and has an in-game store, but it's end-game probably doesn't justify a subscription fee.

I played WoW for about 3 years straight from late Classic to a few months into Wrath of the Lich King (before that, 2 years of RuneScape). Sure, it was fun, but the illusion that people, like me, stuck to one singular mmorpg for years because it was absolutely amazing needs to be broken. We stuck to them because the industry at the time offered very little variety, especially at that level of quality.

I don't believe sticking to one game is particular healthy because the player is neglecting all the other experiences they could be having with other mmos or regular games in general. Customer loyalty with subscription-based games in this day-and-age is overrated and publishers should be marketing around that fact. If it's a game like WoW, EVE, or RS that offer years of things to do in the game, they can get away with a subscription fee because you can randomly decide on something you want to accomplish within that payed month, as miscellaneous as the objective in question may seem. ESO? I really have yet to find out.

Vlakna

@‌Stratti
Trials are not end game to me. Thats your opinion and its fine. But dont expect everyone to agree. If its not for you go back to WOW and enjoy this is not a game for ex WOW players to take a break.

The_Death_Princess

Hard Fact said for decades about all games;

This (plug in any name) MMO = No Endgame

Take a moment and think, a good MMO is like a life. The end is you are dead. Get out there and make you own life in the game. Hell, I havnt hardly touched any of the 'endgame' stuff cuz my two main toons are 13 and just finishing Cadwells Gold!

Pretty sure these thoughts always come from the ilk that auto bot grind etc. and dont take the time to stop and smell the Dragonthorn.

khele23eb17_ESO

The_Death_Princess wrote: »

Hard Fact said for decades about all games;

This (plug in any name) MMO = No Endgame

Take a moment and think, a good MMO is like a life. The end is you are dead. Get out there and make you own life in the game. Hell, I havnt hardly touched any of the 'endgame' stuff cuz my two main toons are 13 and just finishing Cadwells Gold!

Make my own life in game? A sandbox game ESO is not. You go through your leveling content and youre at endgame. This is an MMO term which does not mean the end of the game but rather a shift in playstyle. This is needed as the devs can hardly produce questing content at the rate comparable to how fast the players consume it.

Woolenthreads

*self tries to recall whether Eve-Online ever had an "Endgame"* I think Eve just had Personal Ambition as an endgame and you were playing that right from the start.

zaria

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

The_Death_Princess wrote: »

Hard Fact said for decades about all games;

This (plug in any name) MMO = No Endgame

Take a moment and think, a good MMO is like a life. The end is you are dead. Get out there and make you own life in the game. Hell, I havnt hardly touched any of the 'endgame' stuff cuz my two main toons are 13 and just finishing Cadwells Gold!

Make my own life in game? A sandbox game ESO is not. You go through your leveling content and youre at endgame. This is an MMO term which does not mean the end of the game but rather a shift in playstyle. This is needed as the devs can hardly produce questing content at the rate comparable to how fast the players consume it.

Endgame in WOW is dungeons to gear up to raids.
Pretty much the same in ESO, reach VR14, craft some good gear or get an guildmate to craft it, get an better set, raid to get better set yet.
Or PvP, pvp in ESO is very cool if in a good group.

Maverick827

zaria wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

The_Death_Princess wrote: »

Hard Fact said for decades about all games;

This (plug in any name) MMO = No Endgame

Take a moment and think, a good MMO is like a life. The end is you are dead. Get out there and make you own life in the game. Hell, I havnt hardly touched any of the 'endgame' stuff cuz my two main toons are 13 and just finishing Cadwells Gold!

Make my own life in game? A sandbox game ESO is not. You go through your leveling content and youre at endgame. This is an MMO term which does not mean the end of the game but rather a shift in playstyle. This is needed as the devs can hardly produce questing content at the rate comparable to how fast the players consume it.

Endgame in WOW is dungeons to gear up to raids.
Pretty much the same in ESO, reach VR14, craft some good gear or get an guildmate to craft it, get an better set, raid to get better set yet.
Or PvP, pvp in ESO is very cool if in a good group.

The difference is that, in WoW, you run dungeons to gear up for raids, and then you run those raids to gear up for more challenging raids. In ESO, you craft gear to gear up for raids for...no reason.

Gidorick

While I appreciate the OP sharing their opinion and suggestion.... No thank you.