No End Game = No MMO
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't want the game to be all about gear, the more focus you put on gear the less and less PVP becomes about actual player vs player, and more about 'player vs environment' vs 'player vs environment'.
Gear doesn't turn people into computer controlled enemies. In fact, if there was differing levels of gear between people I'd feel less like I was playing against army of clones, using the exact same builds/skills & gear. There would be stronger opponents & weaker opponents, creating a more diverse & gratifying PvP environment (without messing with balance, see my previous post).
That wasn't what I said. What I'm saying is I don't want to be forced to play their game (PvE raids etc) to be able to play my game (PvP and a bit of crafting). It's not like I'm insisting that those who enjoy PvE raiding must do PvP, why should those that want to PvP have to do PvE raiding?
No one should have to do anything they don't like in a MMO, that's my stance. Having PvE as one of the sources of gear and PvP another doesn't hurt anyone.
Why do you need a reward for doing something you claim to enjoy? Do you enjoy PvP and PvE or is it only the reward at the end that you enjoy? The rewarding part for me is the experience, and if the experience isn't rewarding in of itself I don't want to do it unless I need the sort of reward you speak of at the end... that's generally called work to most people for which they receive a payment at it's completion.
The first experience is usually enjoyable. However, when you do the same thing for the 517th time without getting anything out of it, it hardly feels "fun" or "rewarding". Even the first time you do something, if you get poorly rewarded for your efforts, it leaves a foul taste in your mouth.
In short, rewards = replayability, whether that is PvP or PvE.
So you do not like getting reward bags in PvP or quest rewards at all in the game and don't want them? The fact is, that (most) people like being rewarded for their efforts, and if the reward sucks, they feel cheated.
It's not radical at all. Separating the content as described in no way makes players be they PvE or PvP focused unable to do the other type of content. It would just mean when you do PvE raids the character advancements you gain in that content will only benefit you in other PvE raid content and not in PvP, and vice versa with PvP character advancement should there be any. That's the most neutral and equitable system possible for both play types.
Many games do that kind of system, where they have separate "PvP stats". Many (if not most) players also hate that kind of gear separation.
There was also an interview quite a while ago, where the devs stated they do not want to create a "PvP stat" (although this already exists in a way as "Impenetrable").
None of them had group/raid PvE either... So, what's your point here?
On the other hand ESO did copy from DAoCs RvR system. My expectations are in large part of the developers selling what their game would be like and from briefly playing beta. Although, I'll grant you I'm not surprised it's turning out to be something else. Many MMO developers are like politicians, in that they try to appeal to everyone in way that they can't possibly deliver, and usually end up disappointing everyone that's actually paying attention and not drinking cool aid.
The point was, that you can't expect an AAA singleplayer (entirely PvE focused) brand suddenly become a PvP game, as it wouldn't necessarily appeal to the previous playerbase.
However, as ESO had/has more development resources ($$), that means you can create more systems & spread the focus of the game to all areas. The reason why games like DAoC etc focused on only a certain type of players is the budget (DAoC less than 3 million $), while titles such as WoW have the luxury to appeal to everyone (having multiple developer teams focusing on different aspects of the game).
I do agree with you though, usually the developers who try to appeal to everyone end up disappointing everyone.
This line of argument you're using here is very weak. You don't need to personally experience something to know whether you like it or not. Have you ever eaten dog poop? If I was to fully accept your line of reasoning here I may have to consider the possibility I may actually like eating dog poop, because I definitely have never tried to taste some so how would I know? Fact of the matter is I'm sufficiently familiar with games like EQ/WoW from reading about them and seeing others play or talk about them to know I do not like them.
Well, an awful lot of people seem to be enjoying dog poop then (roughly 7 million people) and all the other similar games with countless amount of subscribers. Someone might as well think DAoC was dog poop, without ever even trying it.
Who's argument is weak after all?
Preconceptions are never a good thing, whether in video games or real life.
This last part of your post really gets to the crux of the issue in terms of what you want out of gameplay which to be honest seems very misplaced.
Back to the example, if I got a real Ferrari for collecting 10 000 pebbles one at a time, I would gladly do it, but it would be laborious work I wouldn't enjoy it. The pay off would be fantastic because I could sell that Ferrari for a lot money and with that money be able to do lots of things I really enjoy doing or get things I really need which I currently couldn't afford. I wouldn't consider it an achievement though, it didn't really challenge me as a person, I didn't overcome a great obstacle, create something noteworthy or unique, or basically do anything anyone else couldn't do. I just had to spend time and suffer a monotonous task for which some odd charitable person was going to give me a Ferrari.
By very definition, anything becomes monotonous if you do it too much. Be that PvE or PvP.
Now, as you described, you would still do that because you'd be rewarded for it, thus giving a task replayability.However, we're talking about a game, not real life in terms of ESO or other MMOs. I would definitely not collect 10 000 pebbles one at a time for a virtual Ferrari, that would be a waste of my time.
Of course, collecting 10 000 pebbles is probably not what the developers should have in mind for interesting challenges.
But how about killing 10 000 people in PvP? What if you got a better mount or gear for doing that, which is something you'd end up doing anyhow?
Personally, that would make not stop at 8000 people because I got bored and there was no point to it, but keep going in order to become more powerful. (Of course rewards could be tiered in shorter intervals... first 10, then 100, then 500, then 1000, then 5000 etcetc if it was based on player kills).The problem with PvE in general isn't that the rewards are poor, it's that experience of PvE, the journey through that content isn't a rewarding experience. In simple terms it isn't that fun. If it were you wouldn't care 1/10th as much about the payment type reward you get from doing it.
You pretty much called PvE "dog poop" earlier, and now claim to know what its problem is?
I had a lot of fun leveling up to 50. I had less fun leveling to VR12 but it was ok. Doing the Trials for the first time I had fun. Doing the Trials for the 3rd/4th time it became monotonous and unrewarding.
This is the case for most people who have spent time at the end game. It is not possible to create gameplay that is rewarding, without giving it rewards (duh). Rewarding means you get something out of it.Every MMO we play will eventually end, all the payment type rewards will be meaningless at that point. What will be left was the experience. It's the journey that matters, not the rewards at the end.
Eventually, yes. But what keeps us playing is the replayability (another duh).4 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Unpredictability removes the...same thing you did the day before, and the day before, and the day before etc.
..no need for payment. The we see who genuinely wants to eliminate repetition and who just wants gear.Edited by Rune_Relic on October 2, 2014 1:56PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Zorrashi✭✭✭✭✭Can I just pop in an say I sort of forgot what we were talking about?
I just....can't keep up with the long posts that mainly refute previous posts. I'm hearing debates over 'what really keeps gamers hooked' the potential 'detriment of gear progression on the game' and conversely the 'amazing progress gear progression can add to the game' but can someone just....like...put bullet points or something on what is being asked for and some elaboration on it.
Because all I got is:
replayability
More reason to group(?)
Gear progression (Better itemization?)
which is fine and all, but a little elaboration on the 'how' would be nice. Like, what kind of replayability are we asking for....the ones where a new reward is given or like new questlines and stuff.2 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
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So you do not like getting reward bags in PvP or quest rewards at all in the game and don't want them? The fact is, that (most) people like being rewarded for their efforts, and if the reward sucks, they feel cheated.
and thats the problem of pve - as a nearly pure pvper my reward are the intresting fights, every player behaves different every fight has a complete differen development and because of that is entertaining and rewarding without any physical/electronical reward.
pve on the otherhand is mind boggling boresome the first time its intresting the second time its no longer as the mechanics do not change.
and because of that you demand actual rewards to do that [snip] over and over and over and over and over again as an incentive to do so. does that increase your entertainment? not the slightest but instead of steping up and give the devs a kick in the but to atleast after 20years of usage of the same AI devolop some usefull AI offering fights with different feels of play all you come up is "i want a shiny new red nose for my char that enables it to fart fire" ...
i had exactly one game where i actually loved to pve - and that was UO on a free shard, you may ask why simply because all dungeon bosses were actually played by a GM...
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on October 3, 2014 1:48PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Can I just pop in an say I sort of forgot what we were talking about?
I just....can't keep up with the long posts that mainly refute previous posts. I'm hearing debates over 'what really keeps gamers hooked' the potential 'detriment of gear progression on the game' and conversely the 'amazing progress gear progression can add to the game' but can someone just....like...put bullet points or something on what is being asked for and some elaboration on it.
Because all I got is:
replayability
More reason to group(?)
Gear progression (Better itemization?)
which is fine and all, but a little elaboration on the 'how' would be nice. Like, what kind of replayability are we asking for....the ones where a new reward is given or like new questlines and stuff.
Replayability is achieved by giving player reasons to do PvE/PvP content multiple times. New quest lines last for one run, hardly adding to the replayability.
If you have bosses (or have good gear purchasable with a lot of AP for PvP example) drop strong gear sets, people have reasons to kill them over & over again, making their character stronger in the progress.
I don't think there's a problem with having "reasons to group" (in fact, there's a lot of people complaining about having to group).
Gear progression=better itemization. Currently you can craft the best gear in 5 minutes with little to no effort, or you can go do PvE/PvP for days/weeks to get subpar gear. This ultimately only makes PvE/PvP not worth doing over & over again.
I hope you've got the idea now.
As to how to fix it, it's simple. Reward players who spent more effort & do harder content (whether it's PvE or PvP) with better loot than people who do not. You can keep crafting relevant by adding "special" crafting materials as drops from Trial bosses/PvP reward bags, which craft gear equal to PvE/PvP gear. Trick is not making the high end gear too strong, while making it still matter (say, around 10-20% more powerful).2 -
Xeres14✭✭✭But see, everyone has their own POV on end game and gear grinds and so on. For me, it's an opportunity to accomplish something I cannot do alone and do it with people I enjoy playing with. Loot is a nice reward for doing this - no matter who on my raid team gets it. A good fight is one where the mechanics are somewhat unique and takes a little time to learn. IMO, fights that are too easy aren't worth doing.
But now after a while raiding I have my new nice set of PvE gear. What to do with it? What was the point? The next challenge. Yeah that's a treadmill but I don't find it boring. When I do find it boring I stop raiding (which I have stopped until WoW's expansion).1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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and thats the problem of pve - as a nearly pure pvper my reward are the intresting fights, every player behaves different every fight has a complete differen development and because of that is entertaining and rewarding without any physical/electronical reward.
pve on the otherhand is mind boggling boresome the first time its intresting the second time its no longer as the mechanics do not change.
and because of that you demand actual rewards to do that shid over and over and over and over and over again as an incentive to do so. does that increase your entertainment? not the slightest but instead of steping up and give the devs a kick in the but to atleast after 20years of usage of the same AI devolop some usefull AI offering fights with different feels of play all you come up is "i want a shiny new red nose for my char that enables it to fart fire" ...
i had exactly one game where i actually loved to pve - and that was UO on a free shard, you may ask why simply because all dungeon bosses were actually played by a GM...
Sorry, but if you believe that every player behaves differently you couldn't be more wrong... There is a pattern to each player type, some like to tank & hold up block, others charge in with their blazing shield & spam jabs/puncturing sweep, some streak around with dmg shield up & spam curse and shards.
After doing enough PvP, you'll start noticing almost immediately what kind of players you're playing against and there's not much difference between them.
If you're still enjoying PvP fights, then be happy. After a couple hundred more hours, tell me if you're still finding it fun and not monotonous/unrewarding at all.
Just to drive my point through, do you know what you get once you hit the highest PvP rank? (no one in EU atleast has done that yet) You get a fancy title & a dye. That's it. Otherwise you might be just like every other Joe around you. I'd say that feels pretty unrewarding, but I'm not Rank 50 yet (Rank 16, and I already find it unrewarding).
And PvE doesn't become boresome because of mechanics staying the same; it becomes boresome (by very definition) because of lack of excitement when you do it again. Finding pieces of gear that make you more powerful adds that excitement. Of course, as a "nearly pure pvper" you wouldn't be able to understand this aspect of PvE.
Also blaming the devs for not making "new interesting mechanics" is just lazy. It doesn't matter how amazing & great the mechanics are after the first run.
You need reasons to do it again, else you'll do something else instead. In my case, fishing achievements, which in turn will drive me insane before I get all of them. I find getting new boring achievements more worth it than running Trials (yeah, nothing wrong with that, at all /sarcasm)4 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
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so plz show me the pendant of a craftable warlockset wich is worn by 99% of the playerbase.Gear progression=better itemization. Currently you can craft the best gear in 5 minutes with little to no effort, or you can go do PvE/PvP for days/weeks to get subpar gear. This ultimately only makes PvE/PvP not worth doing over & over again.
I hope you've got the idea now.
i do not feel thats the right attempt - incresingly gear gaps have only one effect negating any new blood coming to the game as the sisyphos task of going through that whole gear grind without much participants is just awefull and hillarous.As to how to fix it, it's simple. Reward players who spent more effort & do harder content (whether it's PvE or PvP) with better loot than people who do not. You can keep crafting relevant by adding "special" crafting materials as drops from Trial bosses/PvP reward bags, which craft gear equal to PvE/PvP gear. Trick is not making the high end gear too strong, while making it still matter (say, around 10-20% more powerful).
and its the only reason why F2P system prosper - you can literally buy the gap reduction.
Edited by Tankqull on October 2, 2014 6:23PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭so plz show me the pendant of a craftable warlockset wich is worn by 99% of the playerbase.
Ok, you want me to buy it from this store for 8k (same amount of effort)? Don't be ridiculous.i do not feel thats the right attempt - incresingly gear gaps have only one effect negating any new blood coming to the game as the sisyphos task of going through that whole gear grind without much participants is just awefull and hillarous.
and its the only reason why F2P system prosper - you can literally buy the gap reduction.
Care to elaborate, how it would "negate any new blood coming to the game"?
Having gear progression does not mean you nerf crafting to the ground, it only means that you'll have something to do after crafting (if you so choose), and whether that something is PvP or PvE is up to the players to choose.
Currently if a "new blood" is interested in doing PvE & hits the max level, he runs through the content once, gets bored and quits. How is that better in any way?? Can't really grasp your argument. You think more (difficult) stuff to do is a bad thing? Not at all.
Also saying that it is the "only reason why F2P system prosper" is ridiculous.
F2Ps prosper because they are free and made to suck every penny you have in your pockets if you want full access to the game. And people fall for that.
But yes, players want power even in free titles. The problem is that in free titles the power is earned through your wallet instead of effort & skill spent on the game.Edited by DDuke on October 2, 2014 6:44PM0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
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so you want your items bop and to not make them farmable add in some lockout timers aswell?! sounds fun beeing locked out of your belovoved raids ^^ sorry the entire idea behind gear grinds is nothing but stupid as it doesent fix the real issue - boredom after the mecahinc of an npc has been discovered.
Ok, you want me to buy it from this store for 8k (same amount of effort)? Don't be ridiculous.i do not feel thats the right attempt - incresingly gear gaps have only one effect negating any new blood coming to the game as the sisyphos task of going through that whole gear grind without much participants is just awefull and hillarous.
and its the only reason why F2P system prosper - you can literally buy the gap reduction.
Care to elaborate, how it would "negate any new blood coming to the game"?
Having gear progression does not mean you nerf crafting to the ground, it only means that you'll have something to do after crafting (if you so choose), and whether that something is PvP or PvE is up to the players to choose.
Currently if a "new blood" is interested in doing PvE & hits the max level, he runs through the content once, gets bored and quits. How is that better in any way?? Can't really grasp your argument. You think more (difficult) stuff to do is a bad thing? Not at all.
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its observable in any mmo once it has a severe gear grind new blood is nearly nonexistant. as a new blood you have to chew yourself through the entire grind without having much people on your side as the number of newbies are not gigantic after a game has been released for a year or more - while all the old vets either have their twinks done after a year of game existance.
many games in compensation make earlysteps of the gear grind obsolete by giving free gear or increasing the quality of crafted gear to a significant lvl.
but in the end gear grind stays what it is a bandaid to cover the non existance of entertaining pve (after you´ve done it a few times).
as a comparison take EvE it does not have any geargrind and it is the only MMO(rpg) with increasing player numbers... every other game is (more or less) slowly losing its player base unless it contains a sandbox system as player interaction is the only thing keeping players entertained with the neglegtance of AI development within the last few decades in the gaming industry.
spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Ok, you want me to buy it from this store for 8k (same amount of effort)? Don't be ridiculous.
Care to elaborate, how it would "negate any new blood coming to the game"?
Having gear progression does not mean you nerf crafting to the ground, it only means that you'll have something to do after crafting (if you so choose), and whether that something is PvP or PvE is up to the players to choose.
Currently if a "new blood" is interested in doing PvE & hits the max level, he runs through the content once, gets bored and quits. How is that better in any way?? Can't really grasp your argument. You think more (difficult) stuff to do is a bad thing? Not at all.
Also saying that it is the "only reason why F2P system prosper" is ridiculous.
F2Ps prosper because they are free and made to suck every penny you have in your pockets if you want full access to the game. And people fall for that.
But yes, players want power even in free titles. The problem is that in free titles the power is earned through your wallet instead of effort & skill spent on the game.
I posted already in page 9 the idea that vertical progression as you want creates a gap between new and veteran users. And how the current system is set up for horizontal progression. So if the idea of horizontal progress is not appealing to you I suggest that you move on. Myself and many others are happy with the current system and the way it supports horizontal progression. Remember, horizontal progression does NOT create a gap between new and veteran users which is a good thing. This is the negative effect tankqull mentioned that you wanted an elaboration on, a vertical progression system creates an ever increasing gear gap between new and veteran users. Finally I also prefer horizontal progression to vertical because it allows character flexibility and allows the players to expand their character in ways that a vertical progression system such as wow does not allow.Edited by Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO on October 2, 2014 8:03PM2 -
Gedalya✭✭✭✭✭Op I'm not following you at all. Your title suggests your frustrated by missing end-game; what I can only presume is either an end for the main story line, which certainly exists, or more likely given your list, end-game content to keep players post main story.
Regarding your list, you mention things that exist but you disqualify with the statement:
Which is specious at best; or certainly without any further elaboration. I've been playing since before launch and have been enjoying the game thoroughly; while I've had my complaints, it can be shown they are being worked on. May I recommend taking a break? Maybe taking a jog? Spending time with the family? Updates are inbound with new features and content.None of that is here in any real way that will compel people to play.
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Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
✭WoW solved the gear gap like, 7 years ago. When a new tier is increased, you make the previous tier easier to get. This sounds exactly like how they're designing the seasonal gear.2 -
poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭WOW was why I never ever considered playing an MMO. Skyrim is why I'm playing this one.
I do enjoy it a lot. To the gear should not matter people. The gear is one of the ways we can play with the numbers. You understand this is a numbers game right? The effects of the gear and the enchantments we can hang on it, including bling, are large and make a large difference.
I enjoy the numbers game and also the fighting. My Vampire Witch will be finished Gold pretty soon and we'll go to Cyrodiil, my son and I, and experiment with that part of the game. I played a lot of PvP in the beta and I've been kinda saving that for when I get the Witch done. Present general stats with a few things running at VR7:
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Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
✭Might i suggest you continue playing WOW for "End game" gear grind which is just mindless redoing of same raids over and over again and over and over and over..
Personally i hope this game would pay much much more attention to actual leveling process and improve ways to play by adding new avenues of questing like going the whole game through with different types of main quest lines like Good with prophet, evil aiding Mannimarco.. Complete overhaul of guild quests so they are different in each faction and can be played as main story.. Adding multiple places to start on your faction ölike Ebonheart pact Nord<Somewhere in Skyrim/Bleakrockk. Dunmer/Morrowind Argonian Blackmarsh and so forth. Also adding new adventure zones that are for level capped players but not restricted to Group or Solo at all but instead made in a way that the size of group determines difficulty of quests/enemies..
ESO Would be far better and more TES friendly by steering away from MMO crowd and instead, offering an Sandbox playground for numerous players who bring life to game world. Much like EVE online but in world of Tamrial.>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭its observable in any mmo once it has a severe gear grind new blood is nearly nonexistant. as a new blood you have to chew yourself through the entire grind without having much people on your side as the number of newbies are not gigantic after a game has been released for a year or more - while all the old vets either have their twinks done after a year of game existance.
many games in compensation make earlysteps of the gear grind obsolete by giving free gear or increasing the quality of crafted gear to a significant lvl.
but in the end gear grind stays what it is a bandaid to cover the non existance of entertaining pve (after you´ve done it a few times).
as a comparison take EvE it does not have any geargrind and it is the only MMO(rpg) with increasing player numbers... every other game is (more or less) slowly losing its player base unless it contains a sandbox system as player interaction is the only thing keeping players entertained with the neglegtance of AI development within the last few decades in the gaming industry.
Then how on earth are these games still out there, if new people are not joining in? Are you suggesting that WoW wasn't getting any new customers after it released BWL & AQ?
And since you're such an expert on PvE, what do you propose to make it interesting and worth doing over & over again? Only one of us is providing constructive criticism currently
Also, as stated previously in the thread, EvE is a very niche game, meaning that it appeals to a certain small player base (and does a good job keeping them).
You can keep wishing for "better AI", but the fact is, that in the end players always want more power and better AI isn't going to give it to them.
Another problem with end game designing is, that if you create equally difficult content (or more/less difficult) that you can beat in the exact same gear, it only adds to the monotonousness.Edited by DDuke on October 2, 2014 8:48PM2 -
Xeres14✭✭✭Go ask SWTOR devs about focusing on leveling almost exclusively turned out. It worked very well for like 6 months and then people left in droves until it was almost the die-hards. They had to go F2P and focus on end game and microtransactions in order to remain afloat. Now it's doing rather well. And this is Star Wars who's IP is much more valuable than ESO's and who's leveling was better than this game's leveling experience IMO.
ESO can avoid that.Edited by Xeres14 on October 2, 2014 8:40PM5 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »
I posted already in page 9 the idea that vertical progression as you want creates a gap between new and veteran users. And how the current system is set up for horizontal progression. So if the idea of horizontal progress is not appealing to you I suggest that you move on. Myself and many others are happy with the current system and the way it supports horizontal progression. Remember, horizontal progression does NOT create a gap between new and veteran users which is a good thing. This is the negative effect tankqull mentioned that you wanted an elaboration on, a vertical progression system creates an ever increasing gear gap between new and veteran users. Finally I also prefer horizontal progression to vertical because it allows character flexibility and allows the players to expand their character in ways that a vertical progression system such as wow does not allow.
Sorry, I lost it at character flexibility
How does this translate to the copypasta builds & gear sets used by players?
4x Twilight, 4x Aether, 3x Soulshine jewelry. This is the gear every serious DPS is using for PvE. You can get all of it in a couple of minutes (Aether can be replaced with any of the crafted sets). Same thing with builds, regardless of class. NB? Funnel, Cripple, Impale, Spell Symmetry, Inner Light.
There might be a second variation now that resto staff was nerfed, using destro & Crushing Shock+Elemental Drain.
Point is: there is no flexibility, you're pigeonholed into the most effective set & build which you can craft in 5 minutes.
Also, since you're talking about "expanding your character", I'm curious whether you have reached Veteran Ranks at all yet.
Oh well, I'll tell you what happens: the only character progression (call it expansion if you will) that happens is you grinding more levels (Veteran Ranks) and getting +10 to each stat when that happens. Once you reach max Veteran Rank, you spend 5 minutes, craft the best gear, and your character progression is over.Maverick827 wrote: »WoW solved the gear gap like, 7 years ago. When a new tier is increased, you make the previous tier easier to get. This sounds exactly like how they're designing the seasonal gear.
Pretty much this.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »WOW was why I never ever considered playing an MMO. Skyrim is why I'm playing this one.
I do enjoy it a lot. To the gear should not matter people. The gear is one of the ways we can play with the numbers. You understand this is a numbers game right? The effects of the gear and the enchantments we can hang on it, including bling, are large and make a large difference.
I enjoy the numbers game and also the fighting. My Vampire Witch will be finished Gold pretty soon and we'll go to Cyrodiil, my son and I, and experiment with that part of the game. I played a lot of PvP in the beta and I've been kinda saving that for when I get the Witch done. Present general stats with a few things running at VR7:
Yet, this is an MMO and you are playing one. Funny, isn't it?
But since you brought up previous Elder Scrolls games (don't tell me you've only played Skyrim...), even those took gear more seriously than ESO.
Daedric Princes for instance gave you strong artifacts, stronger gear than any other in the game and there were strong artifacts to be found in dungeons.
Anyhow, since you are VR7 you cannot really understand the issues there are at end game. Please comment again once you've spent a reasonable time at max. level (this is, after all, a topic about end game and how to make it work).Might i suggest you continue playing WOW for "End game" gear grind which is just mindless redoing of same raids over and over again and over and over and over..
Personally i hope this game would pay much much more attention to actual leveling process and improve ways to play by adding new avenues of questing like going the whole game through with different types of main quest lines like Good with prophet, evil aiding Mannimarco.. Complete overhaul of guild quests so they are different in each faction and can be played as main story.. Adding multiple places to start on your faction ölike Ebonheart pact Nord<Somewhere in Skyrim/Bleakrockk. Dunmer/Morrowind Argonian Blackmarsh and so forth. Also adding new adventure zones that are for level capped players but not restricted to Group or Solo at all but instead made in a way that the size of group determines difficulty of quests/enemies..
ESO Would be far better and more TES friendly by steering away from MMO crowd and instead, offering an Sandbox playground for numerous players who bring life to game world. Much like EVE online but in world of Tamrial.
And I might suggest you to wait for TES6, but I realize driving players away doesn't do good to MMOs
If you don't want to do raids, no one is forcing you. There is PvP as well, and alts if those interest you.
Also, if you drive away the "MMO crowd", you might find it hard to encounter others to play with you in your sandbox 3 -
poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
Yet, this is an MMO and you are playing one. Funny, isn't it?
But since you brought up previous Elder Scrolls games (don't tell me you've only played Skyrim...), even those took gear more seriously than ESO.
Daedric Princes for instance gave you strong artifacts, stronger gear than any other in the game and there were strong artifacts to be found in dungeons.
Anyhow, since you are VR7 you cannot really understand the issues there are at end game. Please comment again once you've spent a reasonable time at max. level (this is, after all, a topic about end game and how to make it work).
I thought I made it clear. End game for me is PvP. I already solo Craglorn for fun and profit. Have done a few quests including Elinhir.0 -
Helwyr✭✭
No one should have to do anything they don't like in a MMO, that's my stance. Having PvE as one of the sources of gear and PvP another doesn't hurt anyone.
But it does hurt some players. It's been explained why over and over again, but you just ignore those people and the points they're making.The first experience is usually enjoyable. However, when you do the same thing for the 517th time without getting anything out of it, it hardly feels "fun" or "rewarding". Even the first time you do something, if you get poorly rewarded for your efforts, it leaves a foul taste in your mouth.
In short, rewards = replayability, whether that is PvP or PvE.
So you do not like getting reward bags in PvP or quest rewards at all in the game and don't want them? The fact is, that (most) people like being rewarded for their efforts, and if the reward sucks, they feel cheated.
No, as stated before I play for the enjoyment of the experience, not for some reward bag. As soon as I do not enjoy the experience of playing the game I stop playing, I have never played any game just because I enjoy getting rewards as you seem to do.
I can't tell you what you should enjoy anymore than you can tell me. However, the fact that you seem to not enjoy playing the actual game, but just the virtual rewards you get for doing so is frankly a little weird.
When you say rewards = replayability, whether that is PvP or PvE that may be true of you and some others, it most certainly is not a universal truth that applies to everyone like you seem to believe.
Lets also for the record point out you are not a normal player by any stretch of the imagination. You've claimed once to have played a couple of thousand hours in Cyrodiil, and a second time you restated this as 1000+ hours. That's just PvP, you also play lots of PvE. The game has only been out around what 6 months? If everything you've said is true you essentially play ESO like a full time job. If any MMO catered specifically to players like you they would lose pretty much everyone else.The point was, that you can't expect an AAA singleplayer (entirely PvE focused) brand suddenly become a PvP game, as it wouldn't necessarily appeal to the previous playerbase.
How many times do I need to tell you I never expected ESO to be a PvP game, I thought it would be a hybrid like DAoC... the only purely PvP game in DAoC was found on the Dred servers. You're also selectively picking differences from the earlier single Elder Scrolls games and this MMO version. There's a lot of things in this game that may not appeal to the previous playerbase including much of the content you're asking for as well.[...] titles such as WoW have the luxury to appeal to everyone (having multiple developer teams focusing on different aspects of the game).
WoW did not appeal to everyone, that's a known fact. It was more successful than any other MMO to date in mass market appeal and drawing in new players that had never previously played an MMO. How much that was because of the gameplay and how much was because of the Blizzard IP is up for debate. It's also my understanding the game also has had issues in continuing to appeal to it's two core constituencies simultaneously, one being the hardcore PvE raider crowd largely from EQ (which you were undoubtedly part of), and the other being the casual gamers that were new to MMOs and made up those fantastic subscription numbers.
Well, an awful lot of people seem to be enjoying dog poop then (roughly 7 million people) and all the other similar games with countless amount of subscribers. Someone might as well think DAoC was dog poop, without ever even trying it.
Who's argument is weak after all?
Preconceptions are never a good thing, whether in video games or real life.
Still yours! You need to work on your basic reasoning skills. My point was never that there weren't people that enjoy EQ/WoW, only that It was not necessary to directly experience something to know you do not like it.
What about that guy in the PvE forums that wanted a PvE only version of Cyrodiil. Do you think that if he had only tried Darkfall he might have enjoyed it? Or do you think he could have just done a little research to figure out it wasn't for him, that it was his dog poop?
Preconception means an opinion formed without adequate evidence. It does not mean an opinion without directly experiencing the thing on which the opinion is formed. Unless you think the only form of adequate evidence is directly experiencing something.
By very definition, anything becomes monotonous if you do it too much. Be that PvE or PvP.
Now, as you described, you would still do that because you'd be rewarded for it, thus giving a task replayability.
Please read again, because you've clearly not understood what I said.
You pretty much called PvE "dog poop" earlier, and now claim to know what its problem is?
I had a lot of fun leveling up to 50. I had less fun leveling to VR12 but it was ok. Doing the Trials for the first time I had fun. Doing the Trials for the 3rd/4th time it became monotonous and unrewarding.
This is the case for most people who have spent time at the end game. It is not possible to create gameplay that is rewarding, without giving it rewards (duh). Rewarding means you get something out of it.
So you're agreeing with me that if game content was a fun experience that is the reward is the journey (the minute to minute gameplay) no payment type reward (whether it be stat increases or some new uber sword) is needed?
Summary of Three Points:
1. Here's where I agree with you DDuke; Scripted PvE will never have engaging replayability. In fact I go further to say it's not very engaging the first time around.
2. Here's where I disagree with you, that endless character/gear progression will transform that scripted PvE into something engaging and replayable. Such rewards do not change the experience of the journey they just give you a payment from going from point A to point B.
3. My other key point is that your fix in adding rewards in the form of endless character/gear progression will spoil other parts of the game for a great many players who are different from you. So the fix for you breaks the game for others.
To everyone other than DDuke:
While I'm sure both DDuke and I have added some different perspectives to this discussion I also think it's very clear neither of us should be the ones leading the direction of this discussion. The reason being neither DDuke or I are going to be representative of the real ESO playerbase. Lets be honest here on one hand you have DDuke a guy that's been playing ESO like a full time job since launch and that basically wants the game to statistically reward/pay him for his massive expenditure of free time. If ESO actually did that in the way he wants the result would be that DDuke would be 'god like' compared to the average player, and the game would become such that the majority of players would be like 3rd class citizens of Tamriel. Then you have me who obviously isn't interested in any form of PvE endgame which Zenimax is clearly focused on being a big part of their game whether I like it or not. Also like a lot of older MMO gamers I'm still waiting for the 'holly grail' the next UO, which ESO will never be. Zenimax does need to carefully balance different forms of gameplay, but in truth neither DDuke or I are the best voices to help guide them on that path.
Ok I'm done writing essays.
Edited for formatEdited by Helwyr on October 2, 2014 9:42PM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
But it does hurt some players. It's been explained why over and over again, but you just ignore those people and the points they're making.
Oh, but it doesn't. You can claim that it would hurt game balance, but as I mentioned before, having stronger/weaker gear doesn't matter as long as the game is unbalanced (every MMO). Strong gear can complement weaker builds and weak gear can weaken unbalanced builds. If anything, it adds diversity to PvP, where you are already fighting against uneven amount of people with uncertain skill & different builds. No arguments can be made regarding balance.
Having strong/weak gear in PvE however allows content to be gated in a meaningful way and provides things to work towards. Does it hurt anyone? Not really, since the really casual players wouldn't be completing this content anyhow and they'd still be able to get good gear through PvP/Crafting. +They'd have something to work towards.
No, as stated before I play for the enjoyment of the experience, not for some reward bag. As soon as I do not enjoy the experience of playing the game I stop playing, I have never played any game just because I enjoy getting rewards as you seem to do.
How can you know whether you'll enjoy the game or not at VR14, if you haven't even reached that VR (as you stated on page 6 or something)? I can't really take you seriously here. But since I already started writing, I might as well finish.I can't tell you what you should enjoy anymore than you can tell me. However, the fact that you seem to not enjoy playing the actual game, but just the virtual rewards you get for doing so is frankly a little weird.
Oh, I do enjoy it. But it lacks replayability. "Virtual rewards"=replayability. Please post back after you've spent a couple of hundred hours at VR14 and tell me whether you're enjoying your time. Most people aren't.When you say rewards = replayability, whether that is PvP or PvE that may be true of you and some others, it most certainly is not a universal truth that applies to everyone like you seem to believe.
Yes, obviously some people don't care about gearing up their character. If gear comes naturally however, having gear progression doesn't hurt those players (see above).Lets also for the record point out you are not a normal player by any stretch of the imagination. You've claimed once to have played a couple of thousand hours in Cyrodiil, and a second time you restated this as 1000+ hours. That's just PvP, you also play lots of PvE. The game has only been out around what 6 months? If everything you've said is true you essentially play ESO like a full time job. If any MMO catered specifically to players like you they would lose pretty much everyone else.
54 Days, 12 Hours. That's how long I've played (on my main character). Of those, maybe 600-700~ hours were spent in PvP, so I might have rounded it up a little
However, you'd be surprised at how many people play as much or even more than I do.
But this topic isn't about me & how much I play, so can you try to stay on topic next time?
How many times do I need to tell you I never expected ESO to be a PvP game, I thought it would be a hybrid like DAoC... the only purely PvP game in DAoC was found on the Dred servers. You're also selectively picking differences from the earlier single Elder Scrolls games and this MMO version. There's a lot of things in this game that may not appeal to the previous playerbase including much of the content you're asking for as well.
That just showcases how little you know about Elder Scrolls games
In all previous titles, you've been able to get progressively stronger gear (especially in Morrowind) gated behind dungeons & quests, so in a way even those singleplayer titles had more gear progression than ESO.
DAoC being a "hybrid" game? What PvE raids/dungeons did DaoC have before ToA if I may ask? A MMO with leveling experience doesn't mean it's a PvE game lol
WoW did not appeal to everyone, that's a known fact. It was more successful than any other MMO to date in mass market appeal and drawing in new players that had never previously played an MMO. How much that was because of the gameplay and how much was because of the Blizzard IP is up for debate. It's also my understanding the game also has had issues in continuing to appeal to it's two core constituencies simultaneously, one being the hardcore PvE raider crowd largely from EQ (which you were undoubtedly part of), and the other being the casual gamers that were new to MMOs and made up those fantastic subscription numbers.
I'd like to remind that this topic isn't about WoW, but yes, it's up to debate. However, most of the people who did play vanilla WoW can attest that they did perfect the gameplay pretty well for that time period (though there were issues ofc).
Also, WoW released November 23rd 2004, and their subscriber numbers peaked 2010. So I'd say they did fairly well at satisfying all player groups and drawing in new people.
And since the discussion turned to me again, I have to mention that my roots are not in EQ (which btw didn't have gear progression), but Ultima Online.
Still yours! You need to work on your basic reasoning skills. My point was never that there weren't people that enjoy EQ/WoW, only that It was not necessary to directly experience something to know you do not like it.
Sigh... I was hoping you'd read the bolded text, but that probably too much to ask.
I'll give you a simpler version: "Someone who thinks all apples taste like [snip], without ever eating one. He thinks so, because he read on the internet/heard from friend that they taste like [snip]. One day he picks up an apple, tastes it and goes "ooh, this is pretty good"."What about that guy in the PvE forums that wanted a PvE only version of Cyrodiil. Do you think that if he had only tried Darkfall he might have enjoyed it? Or do you think he could have just done a little research to figure out it wasn't for him, that it was his dog poop?
The fact that a game fails to attract you in the first place doesn't automatically mean you wouldn't like it.
For instance, I don't usually (read: ever) play ASCII games since they don't appeal to me. One day a friend of mine convinced me to try a game called Dwarf Fortress, of which I initially thought "blehh" after reading about it, but in the end I really ended up enjoying it & I still play it from time to time.Preconception means an opinion formed without adequate evidence. It does not mean an opinion without directly experiencing the thing on which the opinion is formed. Unless you think the only form of adequate evidence is directly experiencing something.
I know what preconception means
And yes, adequate evidence when it comes to gameplay experience (how well you'd enjoy a game) is directly experiencing it.
What you form over the stuff you read on the internet are always preconceptions, unless scientifically proven accurate (feel free to dispute this, as seems to be your habit).
Please read again, because you've clearly not understood what I said.
Yes, I understood it perfectly. You would collect the pebbles for the Ferrari, but you wouldn't enjoy it. Yet you'd collect the pebbles again for yet another Ferrari.
And this is where developers come in. It's their job to make the content you do enjoyable in the first place. You are collecting parts of the "Ferrari" in this raid dungeon/PvP instance, which gives it a purpose (besides having fun for one or two times) and gives you a goal. People like goals. (Let's see if you can grasp this form of thought).
So you're agreeing with me that if game content was a fun experience that is the reward is the journey (the minute to minute gameplay) no payment type reward (whether it be stat increases or some new uber sword) is needed?
That is an impossible task, I'm afraid. Also, part of the fun for many people is getting rewarded adequately. Tot getting rewarded for being awesome only leaves a bad taste. That bad taste carries on to the next run you do on that dungeon and only gets worse when you're let down again by the rewards, leaving the gameplay ultimately disappointing in the end.
Is the need to be rewarded a psychological issue? Most likely, but it's not going anywhere, so tough luck
Summary of Three Points:
1. Here's where I agree with you DDuke; Scripted PvE will never have engaging replayability. In fact I go further to say it's not very engaging the first time around.
I didn't say it will never have engaging replayability, this might very well be corrected once the seasonal gear is in.2. Here's where I disagree with you, that endless character/gear progression will transform that scripted PvE into something engaging and replayable. Such rewards do not change the experience of the journey they just give you a payment from going from point A to point B.
Yet that endless character/gear progression did make other MMOs' PvE/PvP replayable. Feel free to dispute this as well, but 10 years later there are still 7 million players "chasing gear" in a certain MMO, and countless others in other MMOs (SWTOR, Rift etc).
Making the content engaging is a task for the developers of that content (I've been fairly engaged with hardmode Arena so far).3. My other key point is that your fix in adding rewards in the form of endless character/gear progression will spoil other parts of the game for a great many players who are different from you. So the fix for you breaks the game for others.
Yet, I fail to see how it would "spoil" anything. See my first comment on this long long post.
Do you mean that some people would find it harder to PvP? No, because PvP is already unbalanced (and will always be), so in the end it doesn't make a difference.
Do you mean that some people would find it harder to get a group in PvE? No, because people are already asking for achievements before inviting you to Trials group, and it's only fair to the rest of the group that you're up to the task. Veteran Dungeons would still be accessible to everyone, since their difficulty level is low and would actually help you get to the personal level required for doing Trials. Win-Win.
Do you mean that there would be a gap between new people & older population? Go read up on what "seasonal gear" means.To everyone other than DDuke:
While I'm sure both DDuke and I have added some different perspectives to this discussion I also think it's very clear neither of us should be the ones leading the direction of this discussion. The reason being neither DDuke or I are going to be representative of the real ESO playerbase. Lets be honest here on one hand you have DDuke a guy that's been playing ESO like a full time job since launch and that basically wants the game to statistically reward/pay him for his massive expenditure of free time. If ESO actually did that in the way he wants the result would be that DDuke would be 'god like' compared to the average player, and the game would become such that the majority of players would be like 3rd class citizens of Tamriel. Then you have me who obviously isn't interested in any form of PvE endgame which Zenimax is clearly focused on being a big part of their game whether I like it or not. Also like a lot of older MMO gamers I'm still waiting for the 'holly grail' the next UO, which ESO will never be. Zenimax does need to carefully balance different forms of gameplay, but in truth neither DDuke or I are the best voices to help guide them on that path.
Ok I'm done writing essays.
A personal attack? How classy
In a way, there already are "third class citizens" (such a harsh term) in Tamriel. There are skilled players, and there are less skilled players. Adding gear progression wouldn't change a thing. By the way, I very much enjoyed being a "third class citizen" (in terms of gear atleast) in WoW. It only made me play better & work harder to get to the very top (which I never achieved in that game).
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on October 3, 2014 3:00PM2 -
Osira✭✭Please please, don't make it like another typical MMO.
Seriously, you obviously have never played great games. I played Guild Wars 1 for YEARS. It had no gear progression. You know what made it worked ? Great Story, characters, MISSIONS in Co-op, theorycrafting the best possible build, great PvP, item skins hunting...
... In short, many fun activities that's how you keep people in the long run.
Why do you think the MMO market is failing right now and people tend to play Sandbox games ? That's because they need one thing : FUN. Which you find by giving players many activities to do. Gear progression is an old model and gets really boring (you really enjoy doing the same freaking dungeon 100 times and not getting a piece of gear so the raid team would accept you 'cause you lack 300 more dps ??sounds fun...not).
All online games like Minecraft, Counter-Strike etc... sure it's not RPG type, but it's online games and there's no story of "gear progression", yet many people still play Counter-Strike:Source or Minecraft since it was in alpha. It's just because there are many things to do and the games are FUN.
Games like WoW : you get your gear, then you find out it sucks few weeks later... farm again, and again... and you're surprised people are fed up with these kind of games?
When I get home, I really don't want to have a second job and grinding and grinding all day for something that will be worthless in few weeks.
Of course, ESO lacks variety in terms of activities, but it's still a good game and it will grow.
Just to give you another example about a game having few variety yet I still play it even after 1,5 year : Chivalry Medieval Warfare. After all this time, the devs added 2 new official maps with more or less original team-objectives. But you know why I still play this game and pay for character skins ? Not because of some silly vertical progression... just stabbing an ennemy in the belly and play the laugh sound after kicking his dead body is just priceless and I'll do that again and again in other words, I'll say it again... FUN. There are way better things that can entertain people other than your "gear progression". No wonder that with people like you we get almost the same soup in the MMO market and they all fail. ESO has his own thing and you want it to get in line with these other games? Really?
Anyway, like others said, go play WoW or another typical MMO if you like Gear Progression so much, there's plenty of them.Edited by Osira on October 2, 2014 11:37PM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Please please, don't make it like another typical MMO.
Seriously, you obviously have never played great games. I played Guild Wars 1 for YEARS. It had no gear progression. You know what made it worked ? Great Story, characters, MISSIONS in Co-op, theorycrafting the best possible build, great PvP, item skins hunting...
And yet it was a B2P title, just like its follow-up GW2. The kind of game that has you playing until you're done with the story, after which you rapidly dump it until it releases another story, which you complete in 2 days.
ESO is a subscription based MMO, which rely on giving people reason to play 30 days a month as well as keeping people after max level satisfied.
Something tells me you are not max. level.... In short, many fun activities that's how you keep people in the long run.
Why do you think the MMO market is failing right now and people tend to play Sandbox games ? That's because they need one thing : FUN. Which you find by giving players many activities to do. Gear progression is an old model and gets really boring (you really enjoy doing the same freaking dungeon 100 times and not getting a piece of gear so the raid team would accept you 'cause you lack 300 more dps ??sounds fun...not).
MMO market failing? Just where do you come up with this stuff... There are more MMOs at the moment than ever before.
Just to make this clear, I love sandbox games. But there is no reason why you can't have both gear progression & sandbox elements. Some people actually find the "fun" in making their characters more powerfull in contrast to others.
As to doing the same dungeon 100 times and not getting a piece of gear... that's called bad luck (or lack of DKP), it exists already. Get over it.
Although I agree that there should be other avenues of getting equally powerful gear, such as PvP (in case you don't like doing a dungeon 100 times).All online games like Minecraft, Counter-Strike etc... sure it's not RPG type, but it's online games and there's no story of "gear progression", yet many people still play Counter-Strike:Source or Minecraft since it was in alpha. It's just because there are many things to do and the games are FUN.
You stated it yourself. I don't complain about the lack of gear in those games when playing them (all of which I've played btw).
By the way, Minecraft actually does have gear progression (albeit a short one).Games like WoW : you get your gear, then you find out it sucks few weeks later... farm again, and again... and you're surprised people are fed up with these kind of games?
When I get home, I really don't want to have a second job and grinding and grinding all day for something that will be worthless in few weeks.
If you don't want to "grind", don't "grind". Do PvP & be happy, get gear along the way. What is the problem? If people were sick of "these kind of games", I'm sure they wouldn't have 7+ million subscribers and be the standard for subscription MMOs (which require replayability).Of course, ESO lacks variety in terms of activities, but it's still a good game and it will grow.
It is actually doing the opposite, which you'll find out once reaching VR14. Less & less people online, Cyrodiil campaigns emptying, harder to find groups, guilds dying one by one etc.
I'm not trying to be a doomsayer, just a realist. I've had multiple guilds already quit the game because of the unrewarding gameplay.Just to give you another example about a game having few variety yet I still play it even after 1,5 year : Chivalry Medieval Warfare. Who cares about gear progression or grinding for some crap, stabbing an ennemy in the belly and play the laugh sound after kicking his dead body is just priceless and I'll do that again and again
Yet another game that has nothing to do with MMOs.
Have you been paying a subscription for that game 1,5 years? I didn't think so.Anyway, like others said, go play WoW or another typical MMO if you like Gear Progression so much, there's plenty of them.
What makes this MMO so "untypical" in your opinion?
Also, since a big part of the playerbase actually cares about the gear their character is wearing, would you suggest them to "go play another MMO" as well? Third question: are you one of the people who wanted ESO to be F2P? Because that's what it sounds like.2 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭How does this translate to the copypasta builds & gear sets used by players?
4x Twilight, 4x Aether, 3x Soulshine jewelry.
7 of 11 items are drops sounds to me like a system favoring drops over crafted equip - instead of what your claiming the whole time...
but how about this?
instead of your suggestion have the equip of all raides every X trial runs "magically" dissapear and have to be replaced by a new set of equipment, sounds hillarious? but infact its your solution in a different dress.
spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"1 -
Ok, you want me to buy it from this store for 8k (same amount of effort)? Don't be ridiculous.
Care to elaborate, how it would "negate any new blood coming to the game"?
Having gear progression does not mean you nerf crafting to the ground, it only means that you'll have something to do after crafting (if you so choose), and whether that something is PvP or PvE is up to the players to choose.
Currently if a "new blood" is interested in doing PvE & hits the max level, he runs through the content once, gets bored and quits. How is that better in any way?? Can't really grasp your argument. You think more (difficult) stuff to do is a bad thing? Not at all.
Also saying that it is the "only reason why F2P system prosper" is ridiculous.
F2Ps prosper because they are free and made to suck every penny you have in your pockets if you want full access to the game. And people fall for that.
But yes, players want power even in free titles. The problem is that in free titles the power is earned through your wallet instead of effort & skill spent on the game.
Sorry, I lost it at character flexibility
How does this translate to the copypasta builds & gear sets used by players?
4x Twilight, 4x Aether, 3x Soulshine jewelry. This is the gear every serious DPS is using for PvE. You can get all of it in a couple of minutes (Aether can be replaced with any of the crafted sets). Same thing with builds, regardless of class. NB? Funnel, Cripple, Impale, Spell Symmetry, Inner Light.
There might be a second variation now that resto staff was nerfed, using destro & Crushing Shock+Elemental Drain.
Point is: there is no flexibility, you're pigeonholed into the most effective set & build which you can craft in 5 minutes.
Also, since you're talking about "expanding your character", I'm curious whether you have reached Veteran Ranks at all yet.
Oh well, I'll tell you what happens: the only character progression (call it expansion if you will) that happens is you grinding more levels (Veteran Ranks) and getting +10 to each stat when that happens. Once you reach max Veteran Rank, you spend 5 minutes, craft the best gear, and your character progression is over.
Pretty much this.
If you read my previous post, no problem if you did not, I am VR14, and have cleared all the same content you have. And you know what ? I still have a blast clearing AA and Hel Ra, still have fun challenging myself on the DSA. The character progression I spoke of does happen in the VR lvls, and will continue to happen when the champion system is live. Pigeonholing people into certain builds / armor sets is on you, no one is forcing you to min max your character. You can complete AA and Hel Ra with a variety of builds, armor setups, and variation in team makeup. You do not have to have the an absolutely min/maxed build to succeed in this system, therefore that is where the character flexibility comes in. The point is that people like you feel that in order to raid they must have the utmost min/maxed build to succeed, when the opposite is true, and is proven everyday by the pick up groups that clear these two trials. So stop assuming just because people disagree with you that they are not VR14. Also stop trying to convince people that there is no character progression post 50 because there is, I am not going to post it again here for a third time, you can scroll back to page 9 and read all about this thing called horizontal progression. And to mavericks comment about how wow solved the gear gap problem by making easier to get the previous tier easy to get. Well that all fine and dandy but that doesn't CLOSE the gap, that makes it easier for new users but the gear gap is there none the less. So it creates an environment where the game it's self segregates people based on when they started playing. WoW knows this, why do you think they continuously do things to make leveling faster because the gap that is created in a vertical progression system will ultimately be detrimental to the overall.0 -
Helwyr✭✭
How is that a personal attack? You don't represent the average ESO player, and you do play this game as if it were a full time job.
ESO has been out for about 6 months, which is approximately 180 days. You've stated you've played 1000+ hours in Cyrodiil, and you also spend a great deal of time doing PvE. So conservatively based on your own words we can guess at 2000 hours played, but lets pretend you've exaggerated a bit and it's really only 1500 hours total played. 1500 hours divided up into 8 hour working days equals 187.5 work days.
So, unless you've been lying to us the fact is since ESO launched in April you've played in excess of an 8 hour working day 7 days a week, every week until this point. You can be proud of that you can be ashamed of that, for the point I'm making it's irrelevant. The fact is that due to your extreme hours played you are not remotely representative of the vast majority of ESO players. That's not a personal attack it's a fact.
Here's one more fact for you, your $15 month isn't any more valuable than some casual player who plays a couple of hours a week and never comes to this forum. Actually a good argument could be made that your $15 is worth less than theirs, because from a development standpoint you are way more work to please than that casual player.
As for the rest of your comments, you're just repeating the same old stuff, frequently without really addressing what I'm saying and often also distorting what I'm saying. There's no point to me responding to it further, I stand by what I've already said.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »If you read my previous post, no problem if you did not, I am VR14, and have cleared all the same content you have. And you know what ? I still have a blast clearing AA and Hel Ra, still have fun challenging myself on the DSA.
Well, good job at getting to VR14, unlike most of the people who comment here about end game. Now, since you're still having fun on clearing AA/Hel Ra & challenging DSA (normal mode I assume), can you say you're happy with the thrash loot you are getting? I'm not. My guild mates are not. Practically no other people I've talked to are happy with the drops (Aether set being the only one equal with some crafted sets).Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »The character progression I spoke of does happen in the VR lvls, and will continue to happen when the champion system is live.
Mind elaborating on how character progression happens in VR levels? How do our characters progress exactly? ...Didn't think so.
Also, this champion system will force me to level 8 alts to VR14 in case I want to truly maximize my character's Champion Points.
And I will do so, without complaining. Still doesn't prevent gear from being another factor (this would in fact balance the game, as people who spend more time getting gear have less time leveling alts & Champion Points).Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »Pigeonholing people into certain builds / armor sets is on you, no one is forcing you to min max your character.
Sorry, but if you want to play competitively, you will have to play with the most efficient build. I do that in PvE, only because it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the team if they had to carry me.
In PvP I play a stamina build, not only because I enjoy it more, but because I find it more challenging (not an option in group PvP/PvE, where others depend on your performance).Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »You can complete AA and Hel Ra with a variety of builds, armor setups, and variation in team makeup. You do not have to have the an absolutely min/maxed build to succeed in this system, therefore that is where the character flexibility comes in.
Let's stop right here. AA & Hel Ra normal modes stopped being relevant when they raised VR to 14 & raised soft caps. Even some of the worse pugs can do it. Next, try doing them on hardmode (not too difficult either, but you will not do it if people don't have optimized builds & gear). I've seen a couple of pugs wipe at Varlariel also, when they have too many 500DPS guys in the raid.Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »The point is that people like you feel that in order to raid they must have the utmost min/maxed build to succeed, when the opposite is true, and is proven everyday by the pick up groups that clear these two trials.
Good luck at VR Arena (or even normal) & Sanctum Ophidia without optimized builds. I'm fine with these 2 first Trials being easily accessible to people, it would make the gear progression work even better when people could get decent gear from dungeons they can clear.Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »So stop assuming just because people disagree with you that they are not VR14.
I'm not assuming, most of these people have actually stated they are not VR14, which I don't find surprising at all.Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »Also stop trying to convince people that there is no character progression post 50 because there is, I am not going to post it again here for a third time, you can scroll back to page 9 and read all about this thing called horizontal progression.
Something tells me you're not quite aware what horizontal progression means.
Horizontal Progression implies expanding the amount of attributes or skills available to your character & building the most efficient combos with them. Now, can you tell me what new attributes/skills do you get access to after reaching VR14? Especially after grinding out all the skill points (side note: I'd much rather "grind" gear than attributes/skills)
Here's a link if you need to read up on it: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/ (written by someone who prefers Horizontal Progression)Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »And to mavericks comment about how wow solved the gear gap problem by making easier to get the previous tier easy to get. Well that all fine and dandy but that doesn't CLOSE the gap, that makes it easier for new users but the gear gap is there none the less. So it creates an environment where the game it's self segregates people based on when they started playing. WoW knows this, why do you think they continuously do things to make leveling faster because the gap that is created in a vertical progression system will ultimately be detrimental to the overall.
They are making leveling faster, because the game is extremely large already
If that is a concern for you, ZOS might as well stop making new zones & areas entirely. Since, you know, that creates this gap called content to these new players. Can't have that!
Edited by DDuke on October 3, 2014 1:06AM5
