No End Game = No MMO

DDuke

Helwyr wrote: »

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DDuke wrote: »

Succesfull implies that I would've atleast heard of it.

Helwyr wrote: »

Well I would hope you would have heard of Ultima Online, you know the MMORPG that pretty much started the whole genre on a larger commercial scale. If UO hadn't been successful you probably would have never seen games like Everquest and WoW, and unlike those particular MMORPGs UO didn't have any real gear progression.

I don't know how what I have/have not personally played is relevant when it comes to end game problems in this game, but just FYI Ultima Online was the very first MMO I played ages ago when it released, and it's been on decline ever since WoW released. UO also had a different kind of progression with skills, where you'd spend "end game" leveling skills ad-infinitum (similar to some other MMOs that copied it afterwards).

Helwyr wrote: »

The impression I'm getting from your posts is if it isn't something you played and enjoyed you find some way to dismiss it as not relevant. Vahrokh mentioned EVE as an example of a game with no gear progression and you claim that's a "very niche" game. Look I hated EVE, but it has been successful and has a loyal fan base that has lasted more than a decade, no WoW clone can claim that, most don't last a year. Vahrokh mentions DAoC and you try to dismiss that as a "PvP game", no it wasn't, it was a hybrid! Levels 0-50 was mostly PvE and initially took a long time. DAoC even tried the content you love with Trials of Atlantis, but it was so thoroughly hated by the majority of the player base they even had to add servers that excluded the content.

EVE is a very niche game, that is a fact. It does not appeal to a large amount of people, and the people it does appeal to can't find better alternatives (that is not saying EVE is a bad game, but rather that it's good at what it does). This is, however, a wrong title and a wrong era for creating a niche game, and I don't think any smart developer would purposefully limit their customer base.

DAoC was a PvP game before they released ToA, and this is due to the simple fact that it was a) marketed as such and b) lacked any end game PvE.

Even MOBAs have creep waves, do those make them PvE games? No. Battlefield/COD games have singleplayer campaigns, does that make them singleplayer games? No.

I think you get my point.

Helwyr wrote: »

Look it's all very well saying what you want in a game, and pointing out how ESO doesn't provide that, but you and those like you need to stop pretending that your way is the only way, it isn't. As it happens I too am very dissatisfied with ESO, but because I feel it's already catered way too much to players like you. I was hoping for more of a compromise which I consider DAoC to be a good example. If I was wanting ESO to be a PvP MMORPG I'd be expecting open PvP with player looting. As much as I may enjoy that I recognize it would drive off casuals and PvE types as surely as endless gear progression and raid PvE will drive off casuals and PvP types.

Of course it is not the only way. I'd be interested in hearing about your way of keeping people interested in PvE playing this game, when most of them are complaining how the loot is not worth the effort of doing dungeons.

Yeah, we could just ignore these people, but what did you just write about "my way not being the only way"? That goes both ways.

Also, "endless" gear progression does not have to happen in PvE only, it can happen in Cyrodiil as well. Get x rank to wear z armour for y alliance points, just to illustrate a crude example. Of course, things like AP farming & zerg trains would have to be taken care of first...

Also out of curiosity... are you VR14?

Vahrokh

@Much above: saying EvE is not succesful is really wrong. It stopped steadily growing in 2012 after a decade of continuous increase. Heck, it started with like 5000 subscriptions!

Also, to me games that don't close for 12 years (even the first I mentioned) are a success per se. How many other MMOs can say they lasted so much, without even implementing a single "new level cap" patch?
That's the power of being sandbox games. They are hard to make but when they work, they last. And people like games that last, their time investment in their characters is safe with them.

Wish I could say the same for the likes of Warhammer or AoC, games I really loved, games born in trouble and ended worse.

Stratti

I dont understand the argument in the thread.

Do people actually think there is no need for compelling content at max level?

All those MMO lets face it take WoW out and they are all FAIL. Sure they may have a 'cult' following but if ESO ends up like them than it will be a failure.

End of the day people who are loyal to the game will leap to its defense. I am loyal to the game insofar as I will keep an eye on it and think it has potential but my leisure time is vital to keeping me sane in the professional world so I am not going to wait around for 6 months.

Ultimately I would like people to think of this

1. Is the end game (as in content at v14) compelling enough

2. If no then is it bad enough to lose subs

3. If yes what should ZoS do about it

Cogo

Stratti wrote: »

I don't understand the argument in the thread.

We can see that. You outright ignore facts and statements from Zenimax.
More then giving you proof in front of you....we can not do.

I think ESO isn't for you. Several other MMOs coming out, go play them.
I just had a very interesting zone chat discussing in Riverspire (Vet area), just about that. Someone said a very wise thing. Dont bring the racers to the Arena, lol.

Racers = The muppets who think Vet 14 is the goal.

bosmern_ESO

Every MMO had little to nothing to do endgame when they first come out.

There is a reason why every expansion comes with new high level zones, new high level dungeons, etc. When you hit endgame at the start of a MMOs life you should expect there to be not much, it grows further down the road.

MMO's aren't like other games that come with everything and once you do it all there is no reason to play it. They develop over time and constantly bring new things for the high levels (very rarely do you ever see anything come out for low levels) and a few years down the road ESO will have 10x more content then what is out currently, Because it progresses, like every MMO ever.

If you are upset that it doesn't meant your standards then go play another game thats more developed like WoW then come back in a year or so and there will be much more for you to do.

Stratti

Cogo wrote: »

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Stratti wrote: »

I don't understand the argument in the thread.

We can see that. You outright ignore facts and statements from Zenimax.
More then giving you proof in front of you....we can not do.

I think ESO isn't for you. Several other MMOs coming out, go play them.
I just had a very interesting zone chat discussing in Riverspire (Vet area), just about that. Someone said a very wise thing. Dont bring the racers to the Arena, lol.

Racers = The muppets who think Vet 14 is the goal.

Muppet?

Wow nice turn of phrase.

I am actually part of a PVE guild oceanic side that spends time grouping through all sorts of things.

I completed all of Upper Craglorn / some of lower. I solod through Cadwells on my DK tank all the way pre nerf. That included doing v10 Rift at v7. Yes I grinded the levels when I ran out of main quest to finish.

Completed both Trials

Completed every Vet dungeon released multiple times with multiple guildies

Most of the hard modes have been done.

I can craft and enchant all my own gear and have geared out everything I can get without more drops for Serpents.

Now what?????

Or do you expect us Cogo to run around picking flowers and runes while ZOS makes good on BS promises about Thieves Guild and Justice System.

As far as your flame post goes Cogo perhaps you think this game is great but perhaps once you actually complete levelling (if they dont go to v16 before) you will realise it isnt good.

Racers to the Arena?

Since you cannot participate in that content - the center piece - it is hard for you to see what is wrong with it.

2 things

Very long with no way to save progress so you need to go for 2-3 hours

Not compelling rewards to make you want to do it again and again

O yea the trials

Serpents - in 10 years in MMO and 25 years gaming I have never seen an encounter so poorly made - so overtuned that it isnt about skill its about raw healing and negate power

I mean we complained not enough mechanic too much stack and burn so they replaced it with Stack and heal

Maybe Cogo before Flaming people try the content or dont judge those that didnt bother doing EVERY little crappy quest there was and maybe stuck to the main quest.

O and if you dont think an MMO is about getting to Max level then you are playing Skyrim online.

Stratti

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Every MMO had little to nothing to do endgame when they first come out.

There is a reason why every expansion comes with new high level zones, new high level dungeons, etc. When you hit endgame at the start of a MMOs life you should expect there to be not much, it grows further down the road.

MMO's aren't like other games that come with everything and once you do it all there is no reason to play it. They develop over time and constantly bring new things for the high levels (very rarely do you ever see anything come out for low levels) and a few years down the road ESO will have 10x more content then what is out currently, Because it progresses, like every MMO ever.

If you are upset that it doesn't meant your standards then go play another game thats more developed like WoW then come back in a year or so and there will be much more for you to do.

Your assertion is wrong in relation to end game. It wont save the game either. WoW launched with an end game server wide project to open the gates. Also it took most players around 20+ days to level and had a bunch of dungeons with awesome gear to drop straight away. Raid kicked in 6 months in anyway that was then.

Let me tell you the way ESO is going a few years down the road it will be a FTP backwater instead of a subscription based backwater . Last sub released were 750,000 that is pathetic,

DDuke

Cogo wrote: »

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Stratti wrote: »

I don't understand the argument in the thread.

We can see that. You outright ignore facts and statements from Zenimax.
More then giving you proof in front of you....we can not do.

I think ESO isn't for you. Several other MMOs coming out, go play them.
I just had a very interesting zone chat discussing in Riverspire (Vet area), just about that. Someone said a very wise thing. Dont bring the racers to the Arena, lol.

Racers = The muppets who think Vet 14 is the goal.

And we can just ignore you, since you haven't even reached the end game to know what we are talking about.

Racers? You might have confused the topic with these?

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Cliff_Racer_(Morrowind)

I agree, Arena hardmode is difficult enough without bringing Cliff Racers into the mix.

DDuke

Stratti wrote: »

Raid kicked in 6 months in anyway that was then.

I'd just like to add that WoW had Molten Core at launch, not 6 months in

It took the first guild close to 6 months to clear it.

Stratti

There you go .

I started about 6 months in so didnt know that. I assumed another post saying different to be correct.

It is a shame I've said goodbye to some top guildies who were great to play with and I loved a lot about this game.

Maybe they can right the ship over the next 3 to

I dont much want to return to WoW I don't think the toxicity of that culture and the 'give it to me now' 'I want purples' and unwillingness to wipe will change.

Junkogen

Stratti wrote: »

I dont much want to return to WoW I don't think the toxicity of that culture and the 'give it to me now' 'I want purples' and unwillingness to wipe will change.

No offense, but you're kind of coming off as one of those toxic WoW people.

Stratti

Junkogen wrote: »

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Stratti wrote: »

I dont much want to return to WoW I don't think the toxicity of that culture and the 'give it to me now' 'I want purples' and unwillingness to wipe will change.

No offense, but you're kind of coming off as one of those toxic WoW people.

Why thank you . I cant help but see the irony in what your saying. Did you have anything to contribute to the thread or just came here to troll?

Wolfshead

Thatusernameistaken wrote: »

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kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

Gear Grinds = boring at least for me, been there done that, I like the fact I am not doing it now.

I don't get it. So you rather play for no particular reason? Just to smell the roses and see the sites? In an RPG???

I think he mean that way WoW is doing gear grinding is boring and have to agree with him but in ESO we are lvl up instead and that is also grinder but not in same way.

Helwyr

DDuke wrote: »

I think you get my point.

I understand what your trying to say, but no I don't agree with your assessment, you're still trying to say your ideal of an MMORPG with gear progression is somehow more relevant than others that don't have it, but at least you're no longer denying such games exist.

DDuke wrote: »

Of course it is not the only way. I'd be interested in hearing about your way of keeping people interested in PvE playing this game, when most of them are complaining how the loot is not worth the effort of doing dungeons.

The only way to give you your gear progression and not poison the game for players outside of your particular niche playstyle would be to isolate it from the rest of the game. So, we have all the PvE raids with gear that can be upgraded and improved endlessly, but that gear is only relevant in the content in which it is found. So for example in order to be able to do Trial X would may need to have earned the Sword of a Thousand Truths in Trial Y, but as awesome as that sword is in Trials and other PvE raid type content, in regular PvE and especially Cyrodiil it's no better than a regular crafted level 50 sword. So, you have potentially endless vertical progression without negatively effecting the rest of the game.

As to PvP, no self respecting PvPer wants a gear grind in PvP anymore than from PvE. For PvP if there is any character progression at all it should be horizontal not vertical. Rather Cyrodiil and other PvP areas is where the Sandbox can be built where players create the content, but in a way that doesn't impact those not interested in PvP. Really for PvP progression is more in player ability, but having horizontal character progression to help refine and enhance that experience is a great addition in the context of an RPG.

DDuke wrote: »

Also out of curiosity... are you VR14?

C'mon DDuke seriously, it's not out of any curiosity that you ask that, you've repeatably posted your opinion that anyone who's not VR14 opinion doesn't count in this thread. Which frankly is both arrogant and ridiculous. Now if VR content, Trials, and Craghorn or w/e it's called didn't effect anyone else you'd be right saying that, but it does. Regardless I'll give you some info about myself. On my main character I stopped doing all but the occasional quest at around VR5 and only did 50 to VR5 because I felt I would likely need it to not be at too much of a disadvantage statistically in Cyrodiil, that character is now VR8. I have never done a Trial, played in Craghorn upper, lower or where ever, I haven't even completed a single group dungeon... Why? Because I do not enjoy that type of content and resent feeling compelled to do it in order to do what I do enjoy PvP on equal terms as everyone else. I will NEVER do that PvE type raid content. I dislike it so much that when Zenimax failed to address player concerns about raising the VR cap to 14 I cancelled my Sub (I have maybe a week left now) So they've already lost me trying to cater to you. ...and yes I do enjoy talking and arguing about MMOs, even ones I've decided to walk away from.

Vahrokh

DDuke wrote: »

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Stratti wrote: »

Raid kicked in 6 months in anyway that was then.

I'd just like to add that WoW had Molten Core at launch, not 6 months in

It took the first guild close to 6 months to clear it.

I was there at launch. MC was awesome expecially to the many, many who had never raided before in their life.

Then they added Onyxia (I think someone above mistook delayed Onyxia for MC) which was an encounter of legend. Ever changing encounter, very very new to those accustomed to fixed boss scripting.

Then tier 2 in several encounters was totally, utterly EPIC. I rememember the bosses even now, 10 years later. No other MMO managed to impress me that much but 2-3 specific bosses in older MMOs than WoW.

T3 was challenging, expecially for "unconventional main tanks" like me. I was one of about 5 (five) feral druids in the world of that time who could say they did whole T1 - T2 - T2.5 - T3 (not all bosses were possible as druid though).

Even non raid content was epic: class quests, AQ opening gate server event, outworld massive raid bosses, even outworld PvP at Tarren Mill. ALL epic and unforgettable.

The utter awesomeness of the content - despite the lol graphics - was what made WoW a 13M subs seller over the years.

Vahrokh

Also, one thing that GREATLY annoys me about ESO: it's utterly, exceedingly trivial to burn through content.

I should NOT be able to duo a Craglorn delve. Yet yesterday I did it, including most bosses. Twice.

A player who wants to measure himself (notice: himself, not "getting carried by 11 other guys") finds only *1* challenge in the whole game: a storm atronach outdoor boss in a VR zone. That's it. All the rest is AFKable material.

Stratti

This is the issue.

Trivialised content because people weren't around to group for quests in vet zones

People weren't around to quest because craglorn allowed for ridiculous xp to level .

This in turn meant that all but the completionists were in craglorn grinding to v12. Let's face it majority are not completionists

So you get to V12 craft your set and there was a bunch of vet dungeons to do including later crypts and two trials.

Next the increased to v14 and the content is not there . So we spent two nights questing upper craglorn before hitting up Shadow for the last level.

Arena next - awesome but hard, slog , no reward for effort.

Looked at Serpents very hard in a lazy way just an untankable damage burst that requires 3 negates and Templar heals . Meh

Now what ... Cyrodill ... Same old same old

If that is worth $15 a month I'll be foozballd

Tankqull

DDuke wrote: »

Having played 20 MMOs, can you mention one succesfull subscription based MMO that does not have gear progression?

well every MMO prior to WoW more or less.
after that nearly every publisher forced its game devs to copy its garbage system to simulate endgame depths with lockout timers wich prohibit playing the so called endgame to lenghten the stupid treadmill to suggest the blindsided stupids even more "content".

just as a thought what about restricting the arena to be participated every 29days with a 1% chance of getting megaloot wich will be outdated within 6weeks. would that please you? as that is actually the system in demand by you and others.

DDuke wrote: »

EVE is a very niche game, that is a fact. It does not appeal to a large amount of people, and the people it does appeal to can't find better alternatives (that is not saying EVE is a bad game, but rather that it's good at what it does). This is, however, a wrong title and a wrong era for creating a niche game, and I don't think any smart developer would purposefully limit their customer base.

DAoC was a PvP game before they released ToA, and this is due to the simple fact that it was a) marketed as such and b) lacked any end game PvE.

Even MOBAs have creep waves, do those make them PvE games? No. Battlefield/COD games have singleplayer campaigns, does that make them singleplayer games? No.

I think you get my point.

i wouldn´t call EVE a niche game - infact it is the only growing mmo(rpg) game out there over the last decade...

Stratti

Good discussion and valid points

Ultimately for me the end game is not enough to keep me
This doesn't mean it has to be anything in particular but just more substantive then is there

Is anyone actually disagreeing with this point - not enough to do - or disagreeing about the solution

Tankqull

well beside adding a treadmill is not a substance increasement - thats a problem of every "new" mmo as a developer you do not have the development time blizzard allready has spent to its game so a new mmo is allways lacking "endgame" content. and atleast i appreciate that ZOS didn´t bloat the content with a treadmill and lockout timers.

so you have two options as a game dev:
offer the players some kind of sandbox -> cyrodiil where the players entertain them selfs
or you copy wow - with a mind boggling repetitive gameplay wich is locked out 99% of the time with a gear treadmill.

game beeing a sandbox entirely like UO is overwhelming the current generation of players as it seems...

Stratti

When the sandbox is persistent PvP - repetitive and unbalanced then you are banking on entertaining those who enjoy that. It seems that with the imbalanced and homogenised classes in Cyrodill this isn't cutting the mustard

Tankqull

Stratti wrote: »

When the sandbox is persistent PvP - repetitive and unbalanced then you are banking on entertaining those who enjoy that. It seems that with the imbalanced and homogenised classes in Cyrodill this isn't cutting the mustard

if you find pvp repetitive than what in gods name is pve? (as a small hint it is the reason why botting works so well in every mmo-game)
balance issues are inharent to mmos thats nothing i would argue about - and affect pve as much as pvp (but i do agree player beeing on the recieving end of an exploit are much louder than mobs resulting in a much bigger uproar...)

GaldorP

What some of the people who are not VR 10+ yet seem to ignore is:

There are interesting and varied dungeons in the game now (Upper Craglorn delves, Skyreach dungeons, Trials, Arena, VR 10 Veteran Dungeons, Crypt of Hearts) but the game itself offers very little incentive to do these many times (or even more than once for the Skyreach dungeons and Craglorn delves). The rewards are not really worth the effort (especially for the Dragonstar Arena) and you could get items worth more gold by just doing something solo in the same time (farming mats or even just farming a Public dungeon or normal VR monsters). Your character doesn't progress in any way if you do these dungeons again (exception: There's achievements for veteran dungeons and trials that can reward you with some extra dye colours).

Are some people here really suggesting that the game's design should be: complete everything once and then "game over"?
There's a good part of the player-base, btw that does not like to do PvP (I am not one of them but I've met many players in ESO's PvE zones who are not interested in PvP and avoid going to Cyrodiil because of it).

And then, I don't want ESO to be exactly like WoW (I tried WoW for a few weeks, didn't like it) but you have to admit that the core design of ESO is the same one that WoW had. That means: Solo tutorial quests to reach max level in a zoned world and challenging instanced raids with a fixed number of players as endgame. There are so many other ways how a MMOG can be designed. Compare ESO with games like Lineage II or Ragnarok Online or EVE or Everquest. ESO's core design is the one that got introduced by WoW (whose purpose was to lure in new players that didn't like MMOGs before). Replace mini-games and ironic humourous elements with serious, tragic stories for questing and ESO is really really similar to WoW. ESO's PvE endgame problems are the same ones WoW had: What are people at max level supposed to do when there is no organized raid/trials group going on at the moment? ESO simply lacks the uber epic rewards that everyone must have which WoW had in its raids. I'm not saying that's the way ESO should go but some more replay incentives for endgame dungeons would be nice for active players who would like to play ESO for more than let's say 150-200 hours.

Rune_Relic

At the end of the day....once gear progression starts....everyone has to jump on the treadmill or they cant compete. You do after all want this to perpetually improve yours stats or there is no point.

Many if not most of us aren't interested in jumping on that treadmill. BUT....if you get your way we have no choice. It impacts EVERYONE.

So...no to gear progression. Thanks.

Stratti

Rune_Relic wrote: »

At the end of the day....once gear progression starts....everyone has to jump on the treadmill or they cant compete. You do after all want this to perpetually improve yours stats or there is no point.

Many if not most of us aren't interested in jumping on that treadmill. BUT....if you get your way we have no choice. It impacts EVERYONE.

So...no to gear progression. Thanks.

Others have fixated on gear progression. It is but one thing to do but I ask you what else is there to do in this game when you have :

A. Completed Cadwell and many side quests
B. Completed every vet dungeon as well as most hard modes
C. Completed both trials
D. Completed 8/10 of Arena and don't see the point in pushing on to complete it.
E. Had a look at serpents (mechanic is lazy and overpowered no real interest there
F. Completed Upper Craglorn questline (not much to it to be honest)

I'm not a fan of PvP in this game it is sub par compared with previous

My gear set is complete only marginal improvements are available behind a trial that no one really wants to do (when we were previously clearing AA frequently)

So what is left in this game which you say you want no gear progression. Repeat the above for no reward? Like a mouse on a treadmill?

Those who criticise wow clearly never played at any real level. Gear allowed you to raid or be better in PvP - much better then others. It was never about gear but progression - there is a whole website dedicated to tracking progress of every character

As my subscription runs out I ask what is ESO about - I really don't know after 6 months

DDuke

Helwyr wrote: »

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DDuke wrote: »

Also out of curiosity... are you VR14?

C'mon DDuke seriously, it's not out of any curiosity that you ask that, you've repeatably posted your opinion that anyone who's not VR14 opinion doesn't count in this thread. Which frankly is both arrogant and ridiculous. Now if VR content, Trials, and Craghorn or w/e it's called didn't effect anyone else you'd be right saying that, but it does. Regardless I'll give you some info about myself. On my main character I stopped doing all but the occasional quest at around VR5 and only did 50 to VR5 because I felt I would likely need it to not be at too much of a disadvantage statistically in Cyrodiil, that character is now VR8. I have never done a Trial, played in Craghorn upper, lower or where ever, I haven't even completed a single group dungeon... Why? Because I do not enjoy that type of content and resent feeling compelled to do it in order to do what I do enjoy PvP on equal terms as everyone else. I will NEVER do that PvE type raid content. I dislike it so much that when Zenimax failed to address player concerns about raising the VR cap to 14 I cancelled my Sub (I have maybe a week left now) So they've already lost me trying to cater to you. ...and yes I do enjoy talking and arguing about MMOs, even ones I've decided to walk away from.

There you have it, as I suspected.

Why are you posting on a thread about end game replayability, if you haven't even reached VR10 with your character?

There is no way you could possibly realize the lack of replayability, if you haven't played the content yourself. By the way, the replayability issue affects PvP also, since it gets extremely repetitive after a couple of thousand hours (trust me, I know).

Rune_Relic wrote: »

At the end of the day....once gear progression starts....everyone has to jump on the treadmill or they cant compete. You do after all want this to perpetually improve yours stats or there is no point.

Many if not most of us aren't interested in jumping on that treadmill. BUT....if you get your way we have no choice. It impacts EVERYONE.

So...no to gear progression. Thanks.

What if you didn't have to jump on the "treadmill", but were placed there automatically? There's no reason why PvP shouldn't also equally reward people for doing it. That is the point that many people seem to be ignoring.

Also out of curiosity, have you reached VR yet?

FlinkeKlinge

Stratti wrote: »

As my subscription runs out I ask what is ESO about

As stated by the devs numerous times before and after release:
Immersion, Exploration, RP

Stratti

FlinkeKlinge wrote: »

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Stratti wrote: »

As my subscription runs out I ask what is ESO about

As stated by the devs numerous times before and after release:
Immersion, Exploration, RP

O that explains everything . Immersion is very difficult in MMO particularly when everyone else is doing the same quests. Exploration is done seen it all .... RP

You want us to pay $15 to pretend to be a dragon knight imperial tank and RP around .... Not many people doing that which I have seen.

If that is what the game is about then no wonder these issues are here

Tankqull

Stratti wrote: »

Others have fixated on gear progression. It is but one thing to do but I ask you what else is there to do in this game when you have :

A. Completed Cadwell and many side quests
B. Completed every vet dungeon as well as most hard modes
C. Completed both trials
D. Completed 8/10 of Arena and don't see the point in pushing on to complete it.
E. Had a look at serpents (mechanic is lazy and overpowered no real interest there
F. Completed Upper Craglorn questline (not much to it to be honest)

the same you do when
G. Completed the gear treadmill (waiting for the next expansion)

Rune_Relic

DDuke wrote: »

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Helwyr wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Also out of curiosity... are you VR14?

C'mon DDuke seriously, it's not out of any curiosity that you ask that, you've repeatably posted your opinion that anyone who's not VR14 opinion doesn't count in this thread. Which frankly is both arrogant and ridiculous. Now if VR content, Trials, and Craghorn or w/e it's called didn't effect anyone else you'd be right saying that, but it does. Regardless I'll give you some info about myself. On my main character I stopped doing all but the occasional quest at around VR5 and only did 50 to VR5 because I felt I would likely need it to not be at too much of a disadvantage statistically in Cyrodiil, that character is now VR8. I have never done a Trial, played in Craghorn upper, lower or where ever, I haven't even completed a single group dungeon... Why? Because I do not enjoy that type of content and resent feeling compelled to do it in order to do what I do enjoy PvP on equal terms as everyone else. I will NEVER do that PvE type raid content. I dislike it so much that when Zenimax failed to address player concerns about raising the VR cap to 14 I cancelled my Sub (I have maybe a week left now) So they've already lost me trying to cater to you. ...and yes I do enjoy talking and arguing about MMOs, even ones I've decided to walk away from.

There you have it, as I suspected.

Why are you posting on a thread about end game replayability, if you haven't even reached VR10 with your character?

There is no way you could possibly realize the lack of replayability, if you haven't played the content yourself. By the way, the replayability issue affects PvP also, since it gets extremely repetitive after a couple of thousand hours (trust me, I know).

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Rune_Relic wrote: »

At the end of the day....once gear progression starts....everyone has to jump on the treadmill or they cant compete. You do after all want this to perpetually improve yours stats or there is no point.

Many if not most of us aren't interested in jumping on that treadmill. BUT....if you get your way we have no choice. It impacts EVERYONE.

So...no to gear progression. Thanks.

What if you didn't have to jump on the "treadmill", but were placed there automatically? There's no reason why PvP shouldn't also equally reward people for doing it. That is the point that many people seem to be ignoring.

Also out of curiosity, have you reached VR yet?

Yes I have reached VR thanks.
So let PVP people get the uber gear of the grinders how exactly ?
So you want to grind in PVP and PVE ?

Its the grind for gear I don't want thanks.
If I beat you I want it to be down to my combat skills....not having the latest uber gear or uber weapons or expoitable unbalanced build.

You want to fight me...fight me on an even playing field and show me your worth.
Show me how well you have mastered the skills you have.

What you want to do is go to a sword fight with a gun
So again....NO from me!