Skill Line XP Constantly being Deleted. Unacceptable/Pathetic ZoS.

Slurg

Wow, the solution to this from CS is don't spend your skill points?

I didn't see anything addressing this issue in today's patch notes. I wonder if they're still working on it and if affected users will see a huge jump in skill levels when it's fixed. Which they should if it's truly a UI issue right?

I did not notice this phenomenon on any of my characters over the weekend but I don't think most people would notice.

bunnytrix

I do not think this is a UI issue at all. I think it is far more serious, and that they do not know what is causing it. If it was a UI issue, reps would not be telling us to not spend skill points. But I would hold off spending too many until this issue gets a proper response, as chances are they could be gone for good.

Thralgaf

Why is this not being addressed?

Elsonso

jeevin wrote: »

Again just playing now and I get to level 40 with my bow.... GAAHHHH!!

The important question is whether you were at 39 before the announcement.

If you were actually at 39, it is a problem.

If you were already at 40, it is an annoyance.

I don't want to minimize this, but there is a huge difference between the two.

I am trying to determine, myself, which case it is.

JessieColt

Customer Support does not address bugs. Reporting an issue to Customer Support, while informative to the CS Team will NOT get the issue resolved.

Again, Customer Support does NOT address bugs in the game.

You must report the issue as a bug using the /bug function of the Software.

Customer Support can suggest possible steps to troubleshoot the issue. These troubleshooting steps may even resolve the issue.

Customer Support is usually not authorized to provide compensation just because you asked for it.

The ToS/ToU specifically states that no one will receive compensation for any issues that arise in game. (Learn to read)

With regards to the comment regarding CS recommending that you not spend skill points, this is a perfectly valid response to an issue that is currently listed as being visual only.

If it shows that you gained points, and you put a skill point into it, even though you have already done so in the past, you may lose those skill points when the issue is resolved since skill points are never refunded.

Forum Moderators are not Dev's. They only have the information passed from the Dev's regarding any issue that is raised on the forums.

They are not QA. They are not CS. They try their best to answer and address issues that arise in the forums, but they are NOT part of the team that either investigates, nor resolves, any issues.

Expecting otherwise is like asking a duck to use a cats litter box and scratching post.

If you have an issue, you should file a bug report with as much information as you can to help the Dev's locate and work to resolve the issue.

This means, at a minimum, including the following information in your bug report:

1. OS version
2. Character name
3. Main Character Level
4. Affected Skill
5. Affected Skill level
6. Game Software version/s

After providing the above, write out the details of the issue.

Example: "I was questing in Craglorn and my XXX skill line increased. After spending a point in the YYY Skill Line for the XXX skill, I noticed that upon porting to The Rift, the skill link was reset back to the previous level."

Slurg

While /bug reports are an awesome tool and I file them often for various things (more frequently than I would like to), one does not get any kind of response to them. I think what the other users are expressing is that since this is significantly impacting their game playability, they want an official ZOS response to follow up on the one from @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌


It is a reasonable request.

Elsonso

If you want an answer, use /help instead of /bug.

DigitalHype

The responses from ZOS are "technically" accurate. But, misleading. The server side "calculation" is totally opaque to the user. But, it is the one that matters.

While constantly monitoring my resto staff xp, yesterday I observed the values periodically going backwards. In instances where this happens after you cross the total XP required to reach the next level, your level also goes backwards.

While you are progressing from level n, to level n+1, in a particular skill, the UI will report the XP earned in level n. and XP required to reach max, and transition to level n+1. Once you go up a level, the client xp goes back to 0, and you see a new incremental max to reach n +1 again. This lets them keep the pretty progress bar in-line with the progress for each level.

However, the server just maintains a cumulative total of per skill xp.

If the client keeps crossing over the value to reach n + 1 level, only later to have the server recalculate the total xp as below that level's threshold, your level will go backwards. This problem will repeat, until you eventually get beyond the value where the server adjustment takes you below that next level's threshold.

Think of it as taking 2 steps forwarding (client accounting), and 1 step back (server accounting).

IMO, this is a bad design. And, I'd bet money, its a result of scaling problems, that has led to client-side prediction, where it does not belong. The client is constantly lying to the user about XP earned. I understand there are complex scaling issues that lead to this. But, for something as fundamental to MMO's as leveling and progression, this should be tighter. Clients are always making "predictions". But, the client is wildly inaccurate here.

I suspect its always been this way, and they used to have something that dampened the UI, and prevented this oscillation at level boundaries. Either that, or changes were made that increased the discrepancies between client-side and server-side calculations. Such as, increasing the interval at which the server and client synchronize. Or (and this is what I really hope isn't happening). They've put in some sort of server-side throttling on skill xp rate gain.

To those saying "Is this real xp loss" or "does the ui simply report the wrong level". I'd say the answer is both, when it comes to what the user experiences.

Ruebs

Slurg wrote: »

I wonder if they're still working on it and if affected users will see a huge jump in skill levels when it's fixed. Which they should if it's truly a UI issue right?

My thoughts exactly.

jeevin

lordrichter wrote: »

jeevin wrote: »

Again just playing now and I get to level 40 with my bow.... GAAHHHH!!

The important question is whether you were at 39 before the announcement.

If you were actually at 39, it is a problem.

If you were already at 40, it is an annoyance.

I don't want to minimize this, but there is a huge difference between the two.

I am trying to determine, myself, which case it is.

Okay all I can confirm so far is that this is glitchy. Tonight I have tracked my xp for the bow skill line. At level 40 the xp has started at 0 again for the third time this week. It requires 59300xp to level to 41. Somewhere between 30000xp and 34000xp I dinged to level 41 with both visual and audio cue. When I open my skills menu I'm still at level 40 and the Passive(Hasty Retreat) that unlocks at 41 is still locked. I have more than made the 59300xp in the last few days to reach that level but maybe the xp became out of sync much earlier?

I will continue to track as I push towards that ever elusive bow level 41

kewl

bunnytrix wrote: »

I do not think this is a UI issue at all. I think it is far more serious, and that they do not know what is causing it.

Exactly!

jeevin

[/quote]

Okay all I can confirm so far is that this is glitchy. Tonight I have tracked my xp for the bow skill line. At level 40 the xp has started at 0 again for the third time this week. It requires 59300xp to level to 41. Somewhere between 30000xp and 34000xp I dinged to level 41 with both visual and audio cue. When I open my skills menu I'm still at level 40 and the Passive(Hasty Retreat) that unlocks at 41 is still locked. I have more than made the 59300xp in the last few days to reach that level but maybe the xp became out of sync much earlier?

I will continue to track as I push towards that ever elusive bow level 41 [/quote]

I finally hit bow level 41 I started my play session at 39831xp and after one quest ding! It jumped just over 22000xp!! So it may well be that the client and server are out of sync just like Jessica explained. Although because there is no way for me to accurately track my skill progress it's very hard to tell.That was the slowest level 40 of any weapon....

Rune_Relic

So why does the client allow the expending of skill points without 1st checking with the server to make sure the XP is truly enough ?

jeevin

Well now I'm truly dumb struck. I've just logged in and played for a bit and checked my bow skill line again..... level 40. Again. Although it's now at 49490xp.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So why does the client allow the expending of skill points without 1st checking with the server to make sure the XP is truly enough ?

Thats a very good question. Surely theres a correlation between the xp the server registers and the what our client is telling us. They both share the same mob/quest/xp information don't they? Is it that the server is taking a long time to update or is it not actually registering all of the information?

The mystery deepens...........

Winnower

My advice is don't play until it is fixed.

tordr86b16_ESO

Winnower wrote: »

My advice is don't play until it is fixed.

UI bug.

JessieColt

Slurg wrote: »

While /bug reports are an awesome tool and I file them often for various things (more frequently than I would like to), one does not get any kind of response to them. I think what the other users are expressing is that since this is significantly impacting their game playability, they want an official ZOS response to follow up on the one from @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌


It is a reasonable request.

/Bug reporting is the proper tool, not just an awesome one. But by now, everyone should be aware that bug reports do not get you a personal reply. They are, in 99.9999% of the time, a one way communication used to report issues to the developers.

Anyone who expects a directly reply to their bug report should not hold their breath

Once you file a bug report, if you are so inclined, post the same information to the Customer Support forum. Or look to see if anyone else has already created a thread there for the same issue, and add in your /bug report information as well.

The Forum Mods are very good at replying to those threads. Even if the information they have isn't up to date, or the reply anyone is really looking for. It is another way of alerting both them, and other users, to the issues.

Ruebs

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Winnower wrote: »

My advice is don't play until it is fixed.

UI bug.

I've Now reached level 45 in my Duel Wield Tree, with no sign of my lost XP. If this was a UI error, wouldn't my XP and the levels associated return once the 'error' was righted?

At the moment, I'm still at a loss of over 7 hours... Of grinding.

kewl

Assuming the bug appeared in Update 4; we have gone almost 2 weeks with no word on how or when it will be fixed.

Stay classy ZOS.

Leeric

Happened to me the first time yesterday on two skills. Sword and Board and heavy armor. I had gotten another level the day before and when I was fighting small wasps in Crag they both hit that same level again. This is a huge problem, hope it gets fixed soon.

Probitas

So don't spend skill points? That is the same as saying don't play the game. If you can't increase the abilities commensurate with your experience because you might lose them and those new choices because the game is broken, there is nothing a player can do beyond not playing, and even then the character can be damaged.

This would be on par with releasing cars with a brake default and placing them on a 'recall not to be driven until repaired' list. You could be paying for your car loan and not able to drive the car until the local distributor got yours in to fix it (free mind you) but getting nothing to replace the lost value of the car for that time period.

Most people at this point would walk away from that model, and new buyers would avoid that manufacturer like the plague.

So I just want to be clear, we are being told to essentially not play the game until such time as they fix it, but to keep paying.

<mindblown>

Ruebs

I'm not sure why My OP got so many "LOL's" .
I raised a legitimate problem and refrained from being rude and immature throughout. (Which was difficult)
I guess fan boys are patrolling these forums with rock hard [snip], ready to pounce on anyone who says a bad word about their precious game...

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

kewl

Probitas wrote: »

So don't spend skill points? That is the same as saying don't play the game. If you can't increase the abilities commensurate with your experience because you might lose them and those new choices because the game is broken, there is nothing a player can do beyond not playing, and even then the character can be damaged.

This would be on par with releasing cars with a brake default and placing them on a 'recall not to be driven until repaired' list. You could be paying for your car loan and not able to drive the car until the local distributor got yours in to fix it (free mind you) but getting nothing to replace the lost value of the car for that time period.

Most people at this point would walk away from that model, and new buyers would avoid that manufacturer like the plague.

So I just want to be clear, we are being told to essentially not play the game until such time as they fix it, but to keep paying.

<mindblown>

Basically, don't play for some undetermined period of time. Also, we'll update you whenever we get around to it.

jeevin

My advice is not to use skill points to unlock skills or passives unless you are certain that you won't lose progress.

Leeric

I would say, paying for something and being told not to play it essentially, would mean that regardless what they put in their agreements, that compensation would be in order. I could put in an agreement that every time you sneeze you owe me 100 dollars. Doesn't mean that contract would hold up in court. And when you pay for a service and the service tells you, not to use an integral part of that service, but still accepts your money full price with no other explantations, its breaking the law regardless. Especially if we pay on a monthly or more basis and can't receive the money back for the month the "service" wasn't usable to its desired potential.

So in other words. ZOS Better hop on fixing this or they are going to be in a whirlwind of legal trouble should anyone, or a group of gamers decided to pursue that course of action.

Probitas

No, the EULA as designed basically states you give them money to play the game in whatever state it is currently, regardless of what that state is.

Short version of above - MMO player = lollypop.

heyguyslol

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We understand that this issue, on the surface, looks like you are losing skill line progression. After investigating this problem, we found that this is purely a visual bug—no one is actually losing skill line experience. This is related to the UI not reporting the correct value from the server.

To explain a little more in depth, both the client and the server independently go through the routine of updating your skill experience. In some fairly rare cases they can get slightly out of sync—sometimes you’re actually earning slightly more than it looks like, sometimes slightly less.

We hope this explanation helps. We are working on a fix for this UI issue, and thank you for reporting it to us.

http://youtu.be/b8vnL3GfvCU

heyguyslol

Voodoo wrote: »

I wonder if resetting your skill points would stop this bug. Unfortunately pay the gold to re-spec them, see if you gain any, then see if that stops the bug.?

...just a thought! Kinda like a skill points reboot.

respecing will not fix this problem which is something i tried earlier.

kewl

heyguyslol wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We understand that this issue, on the surface, looks like you are losing skill line progression. After investigating this problem, we found that this is purely a visual bug—no one is actually losing skill line experience. This is related to the UI not reporting the correct value from the server.

To explain a little more in depth, both the client and the server independently go through the routine of updating your skill experience. In some fairly rare cases they can get slightly out of sync—sometimes you’re actually earning slightly more than it looks like, sometimes slightly less.

We hope this explanation helps. We are working on a fix for this UI issue, and thank you for reporting it to us.

http://youtu.be/b8vnL3GfvCU

Thank you for taking the time to make this.

ferzalrwb17_ESO

Ruebs wrote: »

I'm not sure why My OP got so many "LOL's" .
I raised a legitimate problem and refrained from being rude and immature throughout. (Which was difficult)
I guess fan boys are patrolling these forums with rock hard c##ks, ready to pounce on anyone who says a bad word about their precious game...

Yes, this is the case. The fanboys are out patrolling with cursor poised above the L-spot.