An Actual Poll About the Justice System

MKLS

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I voted yes - but after saying that judging by various forum posts how players have judged the system to work seems to differ wildly from player to player.

So if what I envision in my head is the actuality - then great - open world pvp for those who like it and so become murderers or guards - and a nice safe pve environment for those who don't as they simply don't murder NPC's.

If not then my enthusiasm wanes a bit - but at least I like the idea as it will add another dimension to the game

Btw I'm a pure PVE player not an avid PVP fan but I'm looking forward to dipping my toes in by stealing the odd thing here and there on an alt - who knows how bad she will end up

Aenra

if you base your opinions, whatever they may be, over generalisations stated in a press event where companies pay to hype their products..and expect others to have done so as well (see: poll)...not sure what remains to be said..poll away i guess

i can tell you something a touch more general however:

as always, mixing the two antithetical bags of pve and pvp together is not a good thing. Never has been, never will be. Not even for sales.

Tabbycat

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I think people are confused about the Justice System. They think if they steal anything, they are going to get flagged for PvP and that simply isn't the case.

When you steal and get caught, you get a fine. If you can pay the fine, all is forgiven and you lose your stolen items.

If you can't pay your fine, then there is a bounty on your head in that area where the guard caught you. Stay away from the area, and you won't have to fear for your life.

So say you get caught in Wayrest, you aren't going to have a bounty or fine in Daggerfall.

Most people who aren't into PvP aren't going to break the law enough to incur a bounty that will flag them. People who are into PvP most likely will.

The interviews with Paul Sage and Nick Konkle found here: http://elderscrollsotr.mymiddleearth.com/ explain the Justice System in more detail. I'd also recommend players watch the QuakeCon panel discussion if they haven't already.

RSram

Other (please explain).

I chose the "other" option.

What is the purpose of just killing NPC's? Unless the killings will be part of a new "Dark Brotherhood" quest line then I would say then it makes sense; actually this would be awesome because now you are doing a quest line where other players can get involved as the enforcers who try to track you down and stop you.

So far it looks to me like a way to get PVP in the PVE zones, and the only purpose of killing an NPC (from what I seen of the Quakecon 2014 videos) would be to challenge other players to try to kill you in the PVE zones.

I have the following questions that maybe someone can answer (like developers?):

1) How is the bounty assigned to the player?

2) Can an enforcer have more then one bounty open at the same time?

3) Is the player automatically haloed in red after the crime is committed, or is there a wanted poster system that you have to read before you can start searching for the criminal.

4) How do you find the players once they commits a crime? Are the players highlighted on the map in red or do you just find them by luck? Will there be a report that is updated as NPC's in other villages see the criminal?4*

5) What type of punishment would you receive for being killed by another player; for example if you had to kill an NPC to accomplish a Dark Brotherhood quest, how would the quest line be handled by your death.

6) What type of rewards do you get if you kill an enforcer?

7)What type of rewards does the enforcer get if he kills you?

If I already repeated what has been already answered, just don't reply as I am old and I need to quickly write down my thoughts as they pass through my feeble mind.

I'll finish reading this discussion after I post this reply; I'm currently in U.S. Congressional mode; you have to first pass the law before you learn what the law entails.

Rich

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Because this seems to be a common complaint about the poll (and because reading seems to be too hard for people, as I addressed this on the first page):

Everyone understands that we don't know exactly how the justice system will play out. This poll is simply to figure out how people feel about the basic structure of the system, which we do know a fair amount about due to Quakecon videos and interviews. So for those who are too lazy to do their own research, here is what we know:

- When the system goes live, cities will become much more like their single-player counterparts. Items/containers will become private property in many places, and non-essential NPCs will be killable.
- If you are detected in the commission of a crime, you will accrue a bounty (just as in all prior Elder Scrolls games). At this point, the Quakecon video makes it clear that you are still not flagged for PvP.
- If you are caught by an NPC guard while you have a bounty, you can pay the fine, or you can choose to flee. If you choose to flee, it is only at this point that players flagged as guards will be able to engage you, and the Quakecon video seems to imply that this will only be the case if your bounty is over a certain threshold.

Also, I'd just like to point out that the numbers for this poll have remained pretty steady since it began. It appears that we're sitting at about 70% approval rating for the basic mechanics of the system as we've seen them.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Other (please explain).

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

- When the system goes live, cities will become much more like their single-player counterparts. Items/containers will become private property in many places, and non-essential NPCs will be killable.
...<snip>...
- If you are caught by an NPC guard while you have a bounty, you can pay the fine, or you can choose to flee. If you choose to flee, it is only at this point that players flagged as guards will be able to engage you, and the Quakecon video seems to imply that this will only be the case if your bounty is over a certain threshold

Where did ZOS say your first assertion?

As for the second one I quote, I see you're now hedging as ZOS haven't said what you want them to say.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

- When the system goes live, cities will become much more like their single-player counterparts. Items/containers will become private property in many places, and non-essential NPCs will be killable.
...<snip>...
- If you are caught by an NPC guard while you have a bounty, you can pay the fine, or you can choose to flee. If you choose to flee, it is only at this point that players flagged as guards will be able to engage you, and the Quakecon video seems to imply that this will only be the case if your bounty is over a certain threshold

Where did ZOS say your first assertion?

As for the second one I quote, I see you're now hedging as ZOS haven't said what you want them to say.

Um... they said it when they set up the whole idea for the justice system? What, exactly, do you think is inaccurate about the statement that containers will be flagged as private property and non-essential NPCs will be killable?

And I'm not hedging. I simply included an addendum that the video we've seen implies that the PvP flag only comes with a high bounty. Even if the flag can come with a lower bounty level, the rest of the post is true.

But please, feel free to cite sources for your disagreement.

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Laerania_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

I'm just against it totally, as I strongly feel PvP has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.

To clarify, games that are designed with PvP as the main draw/feature do just fine. Look at any FPS or MOBA or RTS. One mechanic. One playstyle.

Now look at any MMORPG. PvE and PvP. Balance issues everywhere, in any game you choose to name. Ditto with community division. Any forum board in any game you choose to name has name calling on both sides. Two different types of personalities and game play styles and combat mechanics at war.

Balance one, you wonky out the other. I've not yet come across an MMORPG that has successfully separated PvP and PvE balance issues or community vitriol/bile spewing.

PvP has no business being in MMORPG's. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

This is infact one of the main problems of mmorpgs.

Itemization and classes are designed with PVP in mind. Not only that, the developers are constrained to the never ending class balancing; pissing off the PvErs in every update or class revamp. All to satisfy a ~10% of the player base.

...

You're right, this poll certainly helps to demonstrate that only around 10% of the player base enjoy the idea of having additional PvP mechanics in game.
How silly of developers to respond to such a niche market.

PvP is a vital part of MMORPGS. PvP is a multiplayer activity and belongs in multiplayer games.
If I wanted a pure PvE experience, I would go play Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim, and not worry at all about having to interact with other players in an online setting.
How silly to want multiplayer mechanics in a massively multiplayer online game.

Mortalio

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

So the game should be Pvp only? IF i wanted that, there are other games to play. The Mix of Pvp and Pve it now has does make it more standout in the Mmo Community. And yes it is only my opinion and yes, you are entitled to your opinion.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Mortalio wrote: »

So the game should be Pvp only? IF i wanted that, there are other games to play. The Mix of Pvp and Pve it now has does make it more standout in the Mmo Community. And yes it is only my opinion and yes, you are entitled to your opinion.

Who said the game should be PvP only? More importantly, what part of the proposed justice system makes it PvP only?

TehMagnus

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

"PvP has no business being in MMORPG's."

This has just made my day. I'll be back tomorrow for more .

This is like saying that PvP has no business being in Counter Strike cuz, u know, bots man!

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Mortalio wrote: »

So the game should be Pvp only? IF i wanted that, there are other games to play. The Mix of Pvp and Pve it now has does make it more standout in the Mmo Community. And yes it is only my opinion and yes, you are entitled to your opinion.

I think the game works great with a mix of PvE and PvP. I play both sides of the game. I'm not asking for PvE to be removed from game.

There have been players in this thread claiming that PvP does not belong in MMORPGS, or that PvP is a niche market that causes the game to be ruined for PvE players.
I don't believe such claims.

Izzban

I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.

I don't want PVP in PVE areas. I don't want to see a bunch of yahoos running through town killing all the guards hoping to get some PVP action going on in the town I am trying to interact with.

Why can't you keep your PVP in the PVP area Cyrodiil? Why do PVPers constantly force themselves into the PVE areas? Anyone seeing PVE players demanding a 20'X20' area of PVE only right next to the postern gate of every keep in Cyrodiil?

This is going to turn into a huge mess with VR gank squads in low level towns, guilds setting up PVP nights in certain towns and annoying all the PVE players, constant dueling in every town, guilds claiming towns as home base and forcing PVE players out with constant street to street battles.

Hyperbole? Exaggeration? Maybe. What's to stop any of it from happening? The good nature of the PVP community?

I can't see how this justice system will ever attract/retain more players than it drives away, this poll notwithstanding.

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Izzban wrote: »

...
Why can't you keep your PVP in the PVP area Cyrodiil? Why do PVPers constantly force themselves into the PVE areas? Anyone seeing PVE players demanding a 20'X20' area of PVE only right next to the postern gate of every keep in Cyrodiil?

...

Actually there have been multiple threads on these forums of PvE players asking for an entire dedicated Cyrodiil campaign with PvP turned off. Others have asked for various features that would allow them to flag themselves as unattackable while in Cyrodiil, or even penalize other players for killing them in Cyrodiil.

Mortalio

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

The part from some that say if you want Pve go play Pve only game:).

grimjim398

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I think PvP and PvE players have a lot in common, actually; they are both relentless self-advocates, wanting everything they can get for their group. Both PvE and PvP players will exploit the game for their own ends. In short, both groups have all the expected human flaws.

Homm

And where can I read about this? Way too much spam on the forum, search showed up dozens of threads about justice system, but couldn't find the one in which developers say what this is..

Ambersong

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

I Choose the yellow option


A justice system is needed though having players become guards is a lazy mechanic for developers to please PvP players. The game is suppose to be an option of whether or not to PvP this will push more players out of the game. We all know that the game does not have as high of a population as it had in in the first month of the game. We all have seen how dead Cyrodiil is most of the time and how exploited the game is for the title Emperor. Statistics show most player base for mmos is PvE players which is why most games have many more PvE shards, servers, clouds, or rings depending on what game calls its server. therefor if this system comes out it may push players out and there is only 1 pay to play PvP game and that is eve online and even that is mostly PvE if all i wanted to do is fight players i would play a FPS, WoW, or Rift. they have better designed PvP systems Wow has war fronts which has 3 alliances rift also have pvp maps that have 3 alliances which is the same as this game.

ebunts14_ESO

I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.

my biggest problem will be higher level players killing lower level players. This is and has always been an issue with any pvp environment.

Also I play in pve zones since I do not like or care for pvp . Now im going to have to put up with pvp , in banks, mage/fighter guild halls, ect.

What about alliance members of same alliance not involved in pvp with same alliance members? Seems ZOS is going to have to back track on that to let it happen.

If the mega server is going to become a pvp server then we will need a pve only mega server as well.

I did not buy one game play style to be put into a totally different game play style than what I purchased.

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Homm wrote: »

And where can I read about this? Way too much spam on the forum, search showed up dozens of threads about justice system, but couldn't find the one in which developers say what this is..

The information you are looking here was compiled here:

Shunravi wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Wait wait wait... When did they say it was PvP only?

When they talked about it recently. The justice system is pvp-only. You might steal or kill NPCs, but if you get a bounty you open yourself up to pvp actions and player guards can attack and kill you.

People are asking for a pve option, where you can only get hunted by NPC guards.

They could also add an option to make the whole thing pve by getting player guards to hunt NPC thieves and murderers, and player criminals could get nabbed by NPC guards...this would also be a nice addition to the game because players could then be on the lawful side and only need to pve through it.

I must have heard a completely different discussion then. Because from what I heard, npc guards will be the majority, with player guards stepping in past a certain level of infamy.

In other words, do you have your facts straight, and are we even arguing the same point?

you know, after saying something like that, i think i should cite my sources...

Joolio wrote: »

I think I had a stroke. Where everyone get the information about this new system, I'm searching the forums but can't find any official words!

Here ya go man!

The Quakecon vid (a must see): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlOse0J9NrI

'The Konk' interview (part about the justice system starts around 36:00, and the part most relavent to what i was saying is at 38:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzTpTtWcmYU

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Delith wrote: »

Too bad the justice system is coming and there's noting any of you can do to stop it.

Hehehehe. HEHEHEHEHHEHEHE.

At QuakeCon, Paul Sage discussed the work being done on the in-development justice system, including the possibility of hunting down players who have a bounty. Only players who have chosen to participate in the activity of thievery will have a bounty on them, and be attackable, and only if you are a guard.

While certain activities may open you up to PvP outside of Cyrodiil, we are not considering world PvP.

I could go on, but you have access to the dev tracker, (its over there at the top of the page --> )

You may or may not find it worth noting that the PvP portion of the system requires players to opt in for PvP by flagging themselves either as a guard or a wanted criminal.

Heishi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I like the idea of the system. The only potential downfall I see is similar to open world pvp where you'll get vet level "enforcers" hanging around in low level lands just looking for people to kill.

If the game had a area scaling like GW2, I think it would be perfectly fine since the "criminal" would then have a chance.

Possibly worse, much like there were/are guilds spawn camping WW and Vamp, I suspect there will be whole guilds of people doing this.

lathbury

Heishi wrote: »

I like the idea of the system. The only potential downfall I see is similar to open world pvp where you'll get vet level "enforcers" hanging around in low level lands just looking for people to kill.

If the game had a area scaling like GW2, I think it would be perfectly fine since the "criminal" would then have a chance.

Possibly worse, much like there were/are guilds spawn camping WW and Vamp, I suspect there will be whole guilds of people doing this.

Then don't get caught I liked playing a thief in other tes games but once I could face roll the guards it became less fun as the element of danger was gone.

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

lathbury wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

I like the idea of the system. The only potential downfall I see is similar to open world pvp where you'll get vet level "enforcers" hanging around in low level lands just looking for people to kill.

If the game had a area scaling like GW2, I think it would be perfectly fine since the "criminal" would then have a chance.

Possibly worse, much like there were/are guilds spawn camping WW and Vamp, I suspect there will be whole guilds of people doing this.

Then don't get caught I liked playing a thief in other tes games but once I could face roll the guards it became less fun as the element of danger was gone.

I totally agree. There is great fun in playing a thief simply for the thrill of the stealth aspect and risk of getting caught. The appeal became drastically reduced when guards were too easy.

That's why I'm personally so pleased there will be player guards in ESO. I can count on players to consistently provide interesting combat, whereas NPCs I cannot.

I feel it will be especially exciting going on crime sprees in Cadwell's Gold areas where I will not have to worry about dealing with underleveled players trying to act as guards against me.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

ebuntsb14_ESO wrote: »

my biggest problem will be higher level players killing lower level players. This is and has always been an issue with any pvp environment.

Also I play in pve zones since I do not like or care for pvp . Now im going to have to put up with pvp , in banks, mage/fighter guild halls, ect.

What about alliance members of same alliance not involved in pvp with same alliance members? Seems ZOS is going to have to back track on that to let it happen.

If the mega server is going to become a pvp server then we will need a pve only mega server as well.

I did not buy one game play style to be put into a totally different game play style than what I purchased.

But you won't have a problem with high-level players exploiting low-level guards? Over/under-leveled characters are going to be an issue in any version of this system, so why does it matter if there are PvP elements?

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Other (please explain).

you are already able to choose if your character is flagged for pvp through your actions. Therefore, I did not vote for the first option, (otherwise I would have.)

PBpsy

I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

As long as you aren't killing quest NPCs and merchants (which aren't killable anyway) I'm not really bothered by this idea.
Two groups of players and some NPCs fighting in the streets without me taking part is about as negative to my game experience as people spamming skills in the bank; I'm not bothered by it.

I suppose I could write in an angry /feedback form about how terrible it is to have players fighting Werewolves and Bloodthorns while I am trying to traverse the streets of Daggerfall though.

PBpsy

I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.

Samadhi wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

As long as you aren't killing quest NPCs and merchants (which aren't killable anyway) I'm not really bothered by this idea.
Two groups of players and some NPCs fighting in the streets without me taking part is about as negative to my game experience as people spamming skills in the bank; I'm not bothered by it.

I suppose I could write in an angry /feedback form about how terrible it is to have players fighting Werewolves and Bloodthorns while I am trying to traverse the streets of Daggerfall though.

...and of course every player is exactly like you and their experience is affected or isn't affected by the exact same things.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

I'm not sure how you can abuse that, but knock yourself out. I mean, you'll get knocked out by a player guild for guards, but you go ahead and pretend that you can somehow disrupt the game in any kind of lasting way.

Catsmoke14

I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.

I played UO starting in May 1998. That was years before "Trammel". There were many nuances in the world PvP a mainly PVEer had to keep track of. "Gray Healers" and all that.

It's 15 odd years later. That's not what I want in ESO. It may very well end my interest in ESO.