An Actual Poll About the Justice System

nerevarine1138

Because the poll that is currently floating around only deals with two biased options, neither of which actually represent the proposed system, here's something with a little more detail.

Also, if you choose option 3, please provide an explanation as to how you would keep the game balanced and fair in a system where players have access to an easier option for crime commission.

Trouvo

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

and a series of new streams will arise for ex: "Trouvo....the BOUNTY HUNTER!" lol it will be fun and interesting can't wait

Kypho

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Who does not like it, dont steal and dont kill. Be happy to think you are a hero because you kill 6 lolmobs. Or go in a dungeon and kill 1000 mobs because YOU ARE a BIIIIG übersuper pve HERO
I dont think the übersuper pve heroes will be forced to be a part of this Justice system, so avoid it and you can remain the unkillable champion of the AI. Or just try it out, feel the fun of fighting another player, maybe you will like it.

Sotha_Sil

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I like it. I'd stay cautious though because it hasn't been completely revealed yet and I think it's a bit too early to say exactly if it will meet our expectations.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

I like it. I'd stay cautious though because it hasn't been completely revealed yet and I think it's a bit too early to say exactly if it will meet our expectations.

Right. It will obviously go through some significant tweaking once it's on the PTS, but this poll is mainly to address the broader concept of the system, as discussed at Quakecon (and in prior interviews). I'm sure there will be all kinds of specifics to iron out, but at the moment, a few people on the forums seem to be under the impression that PvE players are overwhelmingly against the system as proposed. I'm curious to see if that's true.

P.S. Option 3 voters, please post a comment about how balance would work in a system that lets you choose whether or not you can be targeted by player-guards.

Nox_Aeterna

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

I would prefer an option that pleases more players , than one that locks people that want to avoid PvP at all cost outside.

And again , in the end of the day , we are just assuming on how it will actually work ingame, maybe all this has been never an issue since the start.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I would prefer an option that pleases more players , than one that locks people that want to avoid PvP at all cost outside.

And again , in the end of the day , we are just assuming on how it will actually work ingame, maybe all this has been never an issue since the start.

And I appreciate the desire for options, but I'm still hazy on how that's a balanced system. If, as a thief, I can choose to have an almost 100% chance of survival and escape (against NPC guards) vs. a 50/50 chance against players, why would I choose to allow players to attack me?

babylon

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If, as a thief, I can choose to have an almost 100% chance of survival and escape (against NPC guards) vs. a 50/50 chance against players, why would I choose to allow players to attack me?

How is me at VR12 vs a L10 guard a 50-50 chance in pvp?

Much better VR12 me vs an equally leveled NPC guard or vs 5 more NPC guards spawned in the area (alerted by the NPC guard who saw me, in the way only NPCs can spawn more adds and players cannot). Sounds like more challenge than the pvp option.

Really - the "lack of challenge" argument totally falls flat on its face.

There could easily be more challenge in the pve option. Then pvp as always could be the easy mode you all hope for.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If, as a thief, I can choose to have an almost 100% chance of survival and escape (against NPC guards) vs. a 50/50 chance against players, why would I choose to allow players to attack me?

How is me at VR12 vs a L10 guard a 50-50 chance in pvp?

Much better VR12 me vs an equally leveled NPC guard or vs 5 more NPC guards spawned in the area (alerted by the NPC guard who saw me, in the way only NPCs can spawn more adds and players cannot). Sounds like more challenge than the pvp option.

I probably should have pre-empted this point.

Over-leveled/under-leveled players are going to be an issue in any potential iteration of this system. That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go. So for the purposes of this discussion, please assume that player levels are generally equal to both the NPC guards and/or the player guards in the area.

GFBStarWars

Other (please explain).

I feel like lots of stuff will not be included in the justice system, like going and escaping jail, and real punishment for thief and murderer beside paying gold or getting flagged

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

GFBStarWars wrote: »

I feel like lots of stuff will not be included in the justice system, like going and escaping jail, and real punishment for thief and murderer beside paying gold or getting flagged

I definitely like the idea of more options for punishment (primarily the jail system, but I'm not opposed to the stocks or general torture). How would you propose that jail work in an MMO setting, though? I think it's a good idea, but I always come up a little short in thinking of a jail system that would be an attractive option for players who don't want to pay their bounty or risk death.

babylon

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.

Shunravi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

The impression I got from the official comments was that there would be bounty thresholds to how player guards would be able to catch you. Say 1000g. If you are a good thief and manage to keep your bounty below that threshold, you would only be attacked by npcs, but if you raised it to the point of a 'serious' bounty, you would face a completely different challenge; player guards. As they would be more serious crimes, I would assume that killing npcs would put you closer to the threshold than thievery.

Though, any system then end up putting in with regards to crime and punishment is essential to the IP, imo.

Nox_Aeterna

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

I would prefer an option that pleases more players , than one that locks people that want to avoid PvP at all cost outside.

And again , in the end of the day , we are just assuming on how it will actually work ingame, maybe all this has been never an issue since the start.

And I appreciate the desire for options, but I'm still hazy on how that's a balanced system. If, as a thief, I can choose to have an almost 100% chance of survival and escape (against NPC guards) vs. a 50/50 chance against players, why would I choose to allow players to attack me?

Unless zen allows people to have 100% chance to escape , they wont have such , in the end of the day , a PvE challenge can be just as hard as a PvP challenge , the reason just opening to PvP makes it easier , is that you just let the players police themselves and dont need to worry about balancing the NPCs so well (balance does seem to be a major issue with zen).

A major PvP player that becomes a criminal can still say he will steal with a very little chance of getting punished , because he will crush the player guard also. Ofc , we are assuming both will be max lvl , since this will not be cyro and there is nothing helping you become stronger against a higher lvl here.

And again , we could escalate this (which will probably happen often) into bigger fights were both sides have multiple players or one just decide to zerg everything to make it easier, but in this case things just get out of hand , since a huge player zerg could kill NPCs and players alike.

And , not you , but people really need to stop saying PvE players will exploit this and that , like PvP players are not currently exploiting the game themselves all the time. Most players know about the multiple exploits PvP players perform in cyrodiil. Zen just comes in and tries to fix it , the same could happen here.

babylon

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.

They don't need NPCs to pass that test. They just need to do what they have done all along in dungeons for greater challenge and simply get the NPCs to spawn more adds. This isn't rocket science. And would be far more challenging than any L10 player guard coming at us.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.

They don't need NPCs to pass that test. They just need to do what they have done all along in dungeons for greater challenge and simply get the NPCs to spawn more adds. This isn't rocket science. And would be far more challenging than any L10 player guard coming at us.

Again, please leave player/NPC levels out of this, as it has no bearing on the discussion.

It doesn't matter how many NPC guards there are, although randomly spawning more certainly poses a greater challenge than not doing that. The same number of players will still be more of a challenge, if all other factors are equal.

BBSooner

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I like the justice system as described. If you do the crime (and get caught), prepare for the consequences.

What I'm curious about is: if a bounty hunter loses the fight with the criminal does the bounty go up? I assume it doesn't wipe the bounty.

babylon

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.

They don't need NPCs to pass that test. They just need to do what they have done all along in dungeons for greater challenge and simply get the NPCs to spawn more adds. This isn't rocket science. And would be far more challenging than any L10 player guard coming at us.

Again, please leave player/NPC levels out of this, as it has no bearing on the discussion.

It has every bearing on the discussion, as it's you who keeps talking about challenge and how pve would present no challenge.

It's up to the devs to make their NPCs capable. As for pvp, I expect that will be the least challenging option, especially when properly grouped.

Phantax

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I vote keep it as-is.

If you're going to risk being naughty... you should also have to risk getting slapped....lol

theyancey

Other (please explain).

I said "other." I posted my long winded ideas about it here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/118925/justice-system-sugestion-killing-other-players-in-pve#latest

GFBStarWars

Other (please explain).

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/121135/ideas-for-justice-system-if-not-already-present#latest

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.

They don't need NPCs to pass that test. They just need to do what they have done all along in dungeons for greater challenge and simply get the NPCs to spawn more adds. This isn't rocket science. And would be far more challenging than any L10 player guard coming at us.

Again, please leave player/NPC levels out of this, as it has no bearing on the discussion.

It has every bearing on the discussion, as it's you who keeps talking about challenge and how pve would present no challenge.

It's up to the devs to make their NPCs capable. As for pvp, I expect that will be the least challenging option, especially when properly grouped.

Again, over-leveled characters are an issue in any system. That can't be a consideration when discussing the relative benefits or drawbacks of different systems.

babylon

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.

They don't need NPCs to pass that test. They just need to do what they have done all along in dungeons for greater challenge and simply get the NPCs to spawn more adds. This isn't rocket science. And would be far more challenging than any L10 player guard coming at us.

Again, please leave player/NPC levels out of this, as it has no bearing on the discussion.

It has every bearing on the discussion, as it's you who keeps talking about challenge and how pve would present no challenge.

It's up to the devs to make their NPCs capable. As for pvp, I expect that will be the least challenging option, especially when properly grouped.

Again, over-leveled characters are an issue in any system. That can't be a consideration when discussing the relative benefits or drawbacks of different systems.

Okay well, drop the challenge thing then and let's talk about drawbacks.

Drawback to pvp only justice system being it will limit the player choice if they are wanting to use the justice system but do not want pvp. Instead of choosing to commit a crime or not it now becomes about "do I want to pvp?".

There is no such drawback to a pve and pvp justice system - this will be inclusive and allow actual choice about whether or not a player wants to commit a crime vs whether or not a player wants to pvp should he get caught.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.

They don't need NPCs to pass that test. They just need to do what they have done all along in dungeons for greater challenge and simply get the NPCs to spawn more adds. This isn't rocket science. And would be far more challenging than any L10 player guard coming at us.

Again, please leave player/NPC levels out of this, as it has no bearing on the discussion.

It has every bearing on the discussion, as it's you who keeps talking about challenge and how pve would present no challenge.

It's up to the devs to make their NPCs capable. As for pvp, I expect that will be the least challenging option, especially when properly grouped.

Again, over-leveled characters are an issue in any system. That can't be a consideration when discussing the relative benefits or drawbacks of different systems.

Okay well, drop the challenge thing then and let's talk about drawbacks.

Drawback to pvp only justice system being it will limit the player choice if they are wanting to use the justice system but do not want pvp. Instead of choosing to commit a crime or not it now becomes about "do I want to pvp?".

There is no such drawback to a pve and pvp justice system - this will be inclusive and allow actual choice about whether or not a player wants to commit a crime vs whether or not a player wants to pvp should he get caught.

And, once again, I'd like to hear why I would choose to open myself up to a greater risk in a PvP system vs. a PvE system. Your argument so far has been based around multiple NPC guards being harder than an under-leveled player guard. But in a straight one-on-one fight, there is no way to make an NPC guard that can compete with a player of equal level/stats.

Akula

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Lol at the 'pvp flag choice option'. The choice is already available to you. Don't want to be hunted, then don't steal ya dirty criminal.

Halorin

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.

They don't need NPCs to pass that test. They just need to do what they have done all along in dungeons for greater challenge and simply get the NPCs to spawn more adds. This isn't rocket science. And would be far more challenging than any L10 player guard coming at us.

It's also not rocket science to improve scaling to make players on more even footing that have a level difference, which would negate your point of level disparity.

I'll post my same question from the other thread here for you:

Let's say there's an instance where there are full quest lines for these two new guilds that are entirely PVE and that the justice system with stealing and killing NPCs is the grab for PVP-minded players to get involved. Would you further infringe on PVP interest by demanding a PVE version of what's being made for PVP players?

babylon

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Okay well, drop the challenge thing then and let's talk about drawbacks.

Drawback to pvp only justice system being it will limit the player choice if they are wanting to use the justice system but do not want pvp. Instead of choosing to commit a crime or not it now becomes about "do I want to pvp?".

There is no such drawback to a pve and pvp justice system - this will be inclusive and allow actual choice about whether or not a player wants to commit a crime vs whether or not a player wants to pvp should he get caught.

And, once again, I'd like to hear why I would choose to open myself up to a greater risk in a PvP system vs. a PvE system. Your argument so far has been based around multiple NPC guards being harder than an under-leveled player guard. But in a straight one-on-one fight, there is no way to make an NPC guard that can compete with a player of equal level/stats.

So don't make the guards a 1v1 fight - as I suggested, they can easily summon adds, a tactic well-used by ZOS in dungeon fights and even open world fights, when they want to add "challenge".

Also, again, the pvp fight will easily be the easier option of the two (especially when properly grouped up). So there will be no "challenge" in pvp that is greater than pve anyway.

But again, instead of addressing the drawbacks, you have diverted the discussion back to 'challenge" Can you now address the above points regarding drawbacks.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Okay well, drop the challenge thing then and let's talk about drawbacks.

Drawback to pvp only justice system being it will limit the player choice if they are wanting to use the justice system but do not want pvp. Instead of choosing to commit a crime or not it now becomes about "do I want to pvp?".

There is no such drawback to a pve and pvp justice system - this will be inclusive and allow actual choice about whether or not a player wants to commit a crime vs whether or not a player wants to pvp should he get caught.

And, once again, I'd like to hear why I would choose to open myself up to a greater risk in a PvP system vs. a PvE system. Your argument so far has been based around multiple NPC guards being harder than an under-leveled player guard. But in a straight one-on-one fight, there is no way to make an NPC guard that can compete with a player of equal level/stats.

So don't make the guards a 1v1 fight - as I suggested, they can easily summon adds, a tactic well-used by ZOS in dungeon fights and even open world fights, when they want to add "challenge".

But again, instead of addressing the drawbacks, you have diverted the discussion back to 'challenge" Can you now address the above points regarding drawbacks.

Ok, so are you saying that a 3v1 NPC vs. player fight could be as hard as a 3v1 player guard vs. player criminal fight if all other things are equal? You can't just use an overwhelming numbers argument, because there can always be more players involved. I'm still wondering why I, as a criminal who wants to succeed, will choose a PvP option if it decreases my chances of success.

And I didn't "divert" anything. I put the discussion back where it was framed: if you want to have that kind of system, you need to explain why players would ever opt to take a more challenging option.

babylon

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Okay well, drop the challenge thing then and let's talk about drawbacks.

Drawback to pvp only justice system being it will limit the player choice if they are wanting to use the justice system but do not want pvp. Instead of choosing to commit a crime or not it now becomes about "do I want to pvp?".

There is no such drawback to a pve and pvp justice system - this will be inclusive and allow actual choice about whether or not a player wants to commit a crime vs whether or not a player wants to pvp should he get caught.

And, once again, I'd like to hear why I would choose to open myself up to a greater risk in a PvP system vs. a PvE system. Your argument so far has been based around multiple NPC guards being harder than an under-leveled player guard. But in a straight one-on-one fight, there is no way to make an NPC guard that can compete with a player of equal level/stats.

So don't make the guards a 1v1 fight - as I suggested, they can easily summon adds, a tactic well-used by ZOS in dungeon fights and even open world fights, when they want to add "challenge".

But again, instead of addressing the drawbacks, you have diverted the discussion back to 'challenge" Can you now address the above points regarding drawbacks.

snip

Discuss drawbacks to a pve option -

Again, there are no drawbacks to a pve option, whereas a pvp ONLY justice system is limiting and excludes pve players - it now changes from choosing whether or not to commit a crime to whether or not they want to pvp. All people in this thread state this clearly - "don't want to pvp then don't commit a crime".

How can we possibly call that a crime system - it's simply a pvp system.

yarnevk

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.

They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.

And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.

Really? So why did they just nerf VR because the majority said the NPCs was too difficult? If what you said is true everyone should have been able to go thru VR with ease because it was only NPC. Biasing a poll by saying the PVE is the easy road is biasing the poll. They can make PVE guards have the same instant kill warping to you that admins have if they want to if you so much as set foot in town. They can make them turn into stone giant champions and werewolves if they want to. Obviously they can make them a challenge if they want to, balancing it to the point people say it is still fun to get caught because otherwise what is the point of being a PVE criminal. Escaping from all the town guards, sneaking around them, escaping from jail are all ways that PVE punishments can be fun, there are two decades of TES games that show how to do it. But feel free to have your bias that PVP combat is more fun, nobody said to get rid of that option for you, the poll only said get rid of it for those who say it is not fun.