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An Actual Poll About the Justice System
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smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other (please explain).Nox_Aeterna wrote: »However this system is constructed, My no is based on Zeni's Sledghammer implemation of new stuff it will most probably be bugged to oblivion, and full off flaws and mistakes. And it will be us players that will bear the brunt. It is as Always my wiew and opinion and by god i hope i will be wrong.
I think the poll option you were looking for is "Other," because adding in an additional option to completely avoid PvP wouldn't do anything to fix any potential bugs.
Adding such an option could actually exacerbate such issues, because players could flag themselves to avoid PvP, and then exploit bugged NPC guards like crazy for personal gain without fear of repercussions.
:P Really now?
The fact that PvP players are probably the ones that exploit the most in the game on the other hand does not raise any flags?
It is true PvE players could find a path to exploit the game , but you can be damm sure that if there is one PvP players can use , they will also do it.
So one way or the other zen will have to fix any possible exploit , having it PvE only or with PvP changes nothing at all.
that's hilarious, some of the biggest e4xploiters in the open world pvp games I played were the pve'rsa. They were also the most vocal backers of griefers as long as they were on their own side.
Stop acting like wanting to kill npcs over player or vice versa makes you morally superior. It's wrong and dumb.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.6 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.I think the main trouble here is understanding the difference in exploit types and why some get reported more than others:
A player that exploits in PvP (let's stop trying to classify people as "PvP players" and "PvE players") will tend to exploit a bug that enhances their performance, allowing them to move more quickly, do more damage, etc. than normal.
A player that exploits PvE will sometimes exploit bugs to their advantage (VR Sewers was mentioned, VR Banished Cells has a boss that can be bugged to stand in one spot and get killed by ranged attacks, the Thief in Craglorn, etc.). However, a player can also exploit mechanics that work as intended in order to beat enemies. Leaping on rocks in order to create pathing errors, using the preset behavior of an NPC to ensure victory, all these things are exploits too. Players just tend to not report them as such. These are the sorts of exploits that would be rampant in the justice system if players weren't allowed to be on the enforcement side.
Will players find ways to exploit the system once it comes out? Almost certainly. But the point of allowing player guards is to prevent people from exploiting the system by using the limitations of enemy AI to their advantage. That's not something the developers can fix.----
Murray?3 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.Motif farming can be seen as an exploit for starters, and probably is
Which, even if true, will probably be completely unaffected by the justice system, other than the motif farmers will be even more likely to be alts not wearing clothes. (why let them get damaged when you let the guard kill you for non-payment)
Again , assuming the bounty leaves if you die.
Honeslty , even if you had to die once to take out 1000 gold , without armor it is means nothing heh , so steal naked ,Nox_Aeterna wrote: »
The fact that PvP players are probably the ones that exploit the most in the game on the other hand does not raise any flags?
It is true PvE players could find a path to exploit the game , but you can be damm sure that if there is one PvP players can use , they will also do it.
So one way or the other zen will have to fix any possible exploit , having it PvE only or with PvP changes nothing at all.
This is the second time you say this nonsense in a different post.
PVE players are the biggest mechanics exploiters in the game that's a fact because the only thing that has mechanics IS the environement and the game itself (skills behaviour). Moreover, ZOS has fixed most mechanic exploits in PVP content which they haven't done in PVE.
PVE Exploits:
When you do Veteran Sewers & pull the boss in the hole on the left so he doesn't spawn adds: Exploit.
When you skip ads in trials: Exploit.
In fact: Most of the dungeons & Veteran dungeons *tactics* use mechanics exploits. How many dungeons are there? more than 18?
You can also add to this to the list:
- Killing mage on ressources tower in Cyrodill with a NB without he hitting you back (which is PVE exploit).
People oiling flags to kill NPCs: Fixed (PVE exploit)
And yes those two last items are in the PVE exploit and not PVP because even if it happens in PVP areas, you're still exploiting the Environement content, not PVP.
Exploits of PVP:
DKs pulling people from walls: Fixed.
People getting in starting areas of other alliances: Partly fixed & offenders getting baned.
PVE is much easier to exploit than PVP since PVP is Player VS Player and you can't predict other player mechanics so you can't exploit them. This is why it's much more easy to exploit PVE content, this is why PVErs(which also includes PVP players doing PVE) exploit more than pure PVPers and this is the main reason they are introducing PVP in the Justice system.
PvP exploit is only the wall? Righhhtt... :P
Yeah , emp trading is not an exploit now clearly , spamming mercenaries , not exploit either ...
PVP players exploit at every turn they got also.
So in the end , zen will have to fix one way or the other , because players in general exploit if they can. So having PvP because people can exploit is a poor excuse of zens.
In truth they know it would just take them a lot more effort to balance the system right with only PvE , thus the reason they are allowing the players to police themselves and skipping the whole thing on their end."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor3 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »That will have to be something the developers figure out as they go.
They could also figure out how to make NPC guards a suitable challenge as well, so having a pve option will be okay.
And while I appreciate that you think this is possible, that won't happen until they can make NPCs pass the Turing Test. If all other things are equal (levels, stats, abilities, etc.) a player will always be able to "outwit" an NPC by using their limited behavioral options against them.
Really? So why did they just nerf VR because the majority said the NPCs was too difficult?
They didn't. They did it because the guys with unhappy spreadsheets said - do something, do something NOW!
There is not a business on the planet that runs itself on the whims of a few dozen forum yahoo's shouting at each other.
That won't stop them blowing smoke up our collective butts with PR statements about why they did it but only the terminally naive would beleive it.2 -
ReklawianSoul ShrivenI like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Nox_Aeterna wrote: »I would prefer an option that pleases more players , than one that locks people that want to avoid PvP at all cost outside.
And again , in the end of the day , we are just assuming on how it will actually work ingame, maybe all this has been never an issue since the start.
I love a open world PVP game with a flag system. But from the info we have gotten you get your self "flagged" for committing a "crime" so I think there is our choice...
I choose nr 1option in the poll and am looking forward to seeing it ingame.
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers....
PVE is much easier to exploit than PVP since PVP is Player VS Player and you can't predict other player mechanics so you can't exploit them. This is why it's much more easy to exploit PVE content, this is why PVErs(which also includes PVP players doing PVE) exploit more than pure PVPers and this is the main reason they are introducing PVP in the Justice system.
It's also worth noting that when PvP exploits occur they get reported on a regular basis, because they are directly used against other players.
Exploits tend to be reported by players that witness them rather than those that use them."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other (please explain).I really just don't trust PVE'rs... small hands, smell like cabbage...Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Welp, I'm calling it folks. The ayes have it. The integration of PvP into the justice system is desired by an overwhelming majority of players. Everyone please feel free to reference this poll the next time someone feels the need to pretend that most people don't want it.----
Murray?4 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Yep, 21% of PVE exploiters and 68% of PVP cheaters.
The others, well we don't know which planet they came from lol 1 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Yep, 21% of PVE exploiters and 68% of PVP cheaters.
The others, well we don't know which planet they came from lol
Me<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I'm from:
"Planet PvE-MMO-grouping-in-mid-to-upper-levels-creates-outstanding-fun-if-implemented-well-great-endgame-players-Epsilon Eridani"
Btw my PvP friends who are in the majority from Planet-Gliese 436b are all as honorable and forthright as the solo from crib to heavens door crowd, *nods and grins.Edited by Anastasia on August 2, 2014 4:51PM0 -
Caroloces✭✭✭✭✭Other (please explain).I do like the justice system as proposed. The only caveat (and the reason I chose "other") is that I believe that participation in the justice system (whatever side of the law) should be challenging enough so that people don't spam the system. I'm wary of players going on a killing spree as a lark and disrupting the integrity and believability of the game world.3
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Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.I do like the justice system as proposed. The only caveat (and the reason I chose "other") is that I believe that participation in the justice system (whatever side of the law) should be challenging enough so that people don't spam the system. I'm wary of players going on a killing spree as a lark and disrupting the integrity and believability of the game world.
Really can't see this happening, maybe at first when people are trying out and testing the boundaries, or figuring out loopholes. I think guards will be enough of a challenge, if not at least some annoyance. The system will self regulate over a few days or weeks one everybody has decided which side they're on 0 -
Melian✭✭✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.Don't care for it at all. I'm sure it sounds like loads of fun for PvP'ers, but this is yet another part of the game (one very much looked forward to by Elder Scrolls fans) that will be off the table for people who don't like PvP.
Me, occasionally I'm in the mood for PvP, but not often. I certainly hope we'll be able to get provisioning supplies without needing to steal them, at the very least.
I'm also wondering if sneaking will now hide us from members of our own faction.5 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.When will people understand that JS does not equal PVP...
*facepalm*3 -
Melian✭✭✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.When will people understand that JS does not equal PVP...
*facepalm*
Do explain. How is it not PvP? If you engage in the new content (stealing, murder, thieves guild and dark brotherhood) you open yourself up to PvP. If you're saying that PvP won't happen - well, maybe if no one is around, but that applies to Cyrodil as well. Would you say Cyrodil=/= PvP?
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Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.By the divines! Justice system is NOT PVP. Forced PVP even less!
It is:
- implementation of thieves guild
- Implementation of dark brotherhood
- Another important use of sneaking
- A world responsive to theft and aggression to NPC
- a deeper RP in Tamriel and a feature always present in ES games
- Some difficulty added to provisioning which is ridiculously easy at this point
- A use for the potion of invisibility
- A more living, dynamic world
- finally, a small chance of being owned by a player guard IF you're clumsy enough to be seen stealing or killing and IF you're too poor to pay you're bounty or IF you try your luck with the guard. And even IF you escape the NPC guard, it doesn't mean you will get owned by a player guard, you could always get aggro by another NPC guard and wipe
I'm sure other people here will have other examples of pros for the JS. But yet we're still to read a valid con, or a valid reason to why people should be able to opt out of PVP, beside the will to exploit the JS without consequences.
But the argument that players are forced to do PVP with the JS is entirely false.
I don't do PVP yet and I voted no for open world PVP as I believe PVE zones should stay the way they are for those who (like me) enjoy questing in their corners or in small group without watching their backs every 2mn.
But if you're gonna steal, attack and kill recklessly, be prepared to POSSIBLY have to face a player guard. It's no big deal and the JS is, I hope, one of many implementation that will bring some life and spontaneity to Tamriel.
@Melian see my post above, it's sitting in the page priorEdited by Welka on August 2, 2014 7:22PM4 -
Melian✭✭✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.@Welka that would be nice, but it would only work if stealth worked on your own faction, and if the flag would eventually go away (which it seems it won't, unless you pay your bounty - which some might get stuck unable to do).
I can see it being fun, but only if it does amount to sneaking around as you described rather than "steal something, then fight off bounty hunters wherever you go indefinitely".3 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.You have a point about the bounty. But this hasn't been confirmed yet and I'm pretty sure it will disappear, as well as your stolen goods, upon death.
Regarding sneaking, I don't get your point. You will need to sneak to execute a "bounty less" kill or theft. Is that what you meant?4 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.@Welka that would be nice, but it would only work if stealth worked on your own faction, and if the flag would eventually go away (which it seems it won't, unless you pay your bounty - which some might get stuck unable to do).
I can see it being fun, but only if it does amount to sneaking around as you described rather than "steal something, then fight off bounty hunters wherever you go indefinitely".
I don't know where you got the idea that your death won't clear your bounty. Or where you got the idea that stealth won't be tweaked to work on your own faction. They're not planning on making it impossible to get away with crime.----
Murray?2 -
Melian✭✭✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.I'm only going on what they said in the "Future of ESO" panel. Is there more information anywhere? They implied only paying the bounty would unflag you. As for sneaking, they didn't say anything about it iirc, and currently it doesn't work. Of course, it makes no sense to leave it that way.0
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smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other (please explain).I'm only going on what they said in the "Future of ESO" panel. Is there more information anywhere? They implied only paying the bounty would unflag you. As for sneaking, they didn't say anything about it iirc, and currently it doesn't work. Of course, it makes no sense to leave it that way.
they never implied that.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.2 -
Mortalio✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.nerevarine1138 wrote: »Welp, I'm calling it folks. The ayes have it. The integration of PvP into the justice system is desired by an overwhelming majority of players. Everyone please feel free to reference this poll the next time someone feels the need to pretend that most people don't want it.
Well if 398 votes is the hole player base then yes. We will see how it playes out but the Pvp griefers and exploiters will be happy with this system The way it now is described.4 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.nerevarine1138 wrote: »Welp, I'm calling it folks. The ayes have it. The integration of PvP into the justice system is desired by an overwhelming majority of players. Everyone please feel free to reference this poll the next time someone feels the need to pretend that most people don't want it.
Well if 398 votes is the hole player base then yes. We will see how it playes out but the Pvp griefers and exploiters will be happy with this system The way it now is described.
Why?2 -
Mortalio✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.Ex. High lvl char. patroling low lvl area just for the fun of it. Griefers have Always used weaknesses in any Pvp system just to *** people off. They are already doing it in the Current pvp system. Do you truly belive people will change overnight?2
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Emeliana✭✭✭Other (please explain).I think Zenimax should put their efforts in addressing other issues before working on a Justice System. Such as;
- Optimizing graphics for better performance.
- Speeding up the sluggish combat mechanics and their latency and animations. (many times I've had message of completion even before last Boss is dead.)
- Better group functions - timings and quest progressions.
- Loading times for instances, e.g. Dungeons.
- General bug fixes.
- New areas/maps with new quests.
- More variety in how to complete quests - it's very linear atm.
- Balancing of classes and their skills.
I'm not 100% sure this poll shows what players really want in this. It shows the result of the ones that post, yes But how many players use the forum at all?
Personally I dread the coming Justice System but hoping players with no interest what-so-ever in it, will be left out. If dragged unwillingly into some kind of World PvP, I for one will stop playing ESO right away.4 -
Welka✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Though the game in its state needs some love regarding performance, bugs and game mechanics, it's also begging for basic classic TES features too.
They can't just focus in bugs and ignore extra content altogether. They have teams working on different aspects of the game, they can't just send them home while the coding team is working double time.
I do feel for the players fearing high lvl players messing around in low level areas. As much as I think the JS is highly needed and very promising, I wouldn't want that either. Hopefully ZOS has predicted such d'baggery and will scale guards difficulty to the player rather than the zone.
But the fact is that regardless where you commit your crimes, low or high level areas, you will still have to face the player guards when reaching high bounty levels. This is where ZOS need to make sure that not only low level player guard will be able to enforce the law in these low level zones, making it easy for higher level player guards to locate where help is needed.
If not, they could always add a player guard channel in the chat so lower lvl players guards can call for help when a V12 a'hole thinks he's clever by grieving the staters islands. I hope ZOS haven't overlooked this.
Apart from that, the JS looks neat!2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.Ex. High lvl char. patroling low lvl area just for the fun of it. Griefers have Always used weaknesses in any Pvp system just to *** people off. They are already doing it in the Current pvp system. Do you truly belive people will change overnight?
And we all know that high-level criminals would never go to low-level areas just to have an advantage over the guards...
Also, the low-level character in your "griefing" scenario has a way to save themselves: don't get caught.----
Murray?4 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other (please explain).Dude if you are low level and decide to be a guard or rack up a high bounty, you are opting in to that stuff. The person killing you is not griefing for playing the game. Either wait until you are high level or deal with the fact that a lot of people fighting you are going to steamroll you.Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.4 -
Melian✭✭✭✭I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »I'm only going on what they said in the "Future of ESO" panel. Is there more information anywhere? They implied only paying the bounty would unflag you. As for sneaking, they didn't say anything about it iirc, and currently it doesn't work. Of course, it makes no sense to leave it that way.
they never implied that.
They were asked if it would be on a timer, and they said no, because they didn't want timers unflagging you while in combat.
"Until you pay your bounty, you're actually going to remain kill on sight for a little bit" (which sounds like a timer, but he's just said there is no timer).
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