An Actual Poll About the Justice System

Samadhi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

PBpsy wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

As long as you aren't killing quest NPCs and merchants (which aren't killable anyway) I'm not really bothered by this idea.
Two groups of players and some NPCs fighting in the streets without me taking part is about as negative to my game experience as people spamming skills in the bank; I'm not bothered by it.

I suppose I could write in an angry /feedback form about how terrible it is to have players fighting Werewolves and Bloodthorns while I am trying to traverse the streets of Daggerfall though.

...and of course every player is exactly like you and their experience is affected or isn't affected by the exact same things.

There's always going to be a group that disagrees with any side of an issue.

Just as there is always going to be a group that tries to grief other players for whatever reason, even if that reason is simply to try and express disdain for a system they object to.

If it ever becomes such an issue that players begin to object to it happening, I will campaign quite strongly for ZOS to penalize the griefers rather than change the system.

PBpsy · July 2014

I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

I'm not sure how you can abuse that, but knock yourself out. I mean, you'll get knocked out by a player guild for guards, but you go ahead and pretend that you can somehow disrupt the game in any kind of lasting way.

Consistent abuse by players of dumb and bugged mechanics has done quite a bit of good to the game until now so yes I will 'knock myself out'.

The fact that the justice PVP can be balanced by grouping and organized guilds doesn't change the fact that many people do not what to witness a damn PvP war zone in a PVE zone.

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

I'm not sure how you can abuse that, but knock yourself out. I mean, you'll get knocked out by a player guild for guards, but you go ahead and pretend that you can somehow disrupt the game in any kind of lasting way.

Consistent abuse by players of dumb and bugged mechanics has done quite a bit of good to the game until now so yes I will 'knock myself out'.

The fact that the justice PVP can be balanced by grouping and organized guilds doesn't change the fact that many people do not what to witness a damn PvP war zone in a PVE zone.

So let me just be clear: you object to even having to witness this so strongly that you don't want it to be an option?

PBpsy · July 2014

I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

I'm not sure how you can abuse that, but knock yourself out. I mean, you'll get knocked out by a player guild for guards, but you go ahead and pretend that you can somehow disrupt the game in any kind of lasting way.

Consistent abuse by players of dumb and bugged mechanics has done quite a bit of good to the game until now so yes I will 'knock myself out'.

The fact that the justice PVP can be balanced by grouping and organized guilds doesn't change the fact that many people do not what to witness a damn PvP war zone in a PVE zone.

So let me just be clear: you object to even having to witness this so strongly that you don't want it to be an option?

Yeah I object to it since it will ruin the pve experience for many players and because it will ruin RVR PVP by dividing up the PvP player base. Zos should concentrate their resources on improving the real PVP and the real PVE.not turn everything into a messed up hybrid.

Samadhi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

I'm not sure how you can abuse that, but knock yourself out. I mean, you'll get knocked out by a player guild for guards, but you go ahead and pretend that you can somehow disrupt the game in any kind of lasting way.

Consistent abuse by players of dumb and bugged mechanics has done quite a bit of good to the game until now so yes I will 'knock myself out'.

The fact that the justice PVP can be balanced by grouping and organized guilds doesn't change the fact that many people do not what to witness a damn PvP war zone in a PVE zone.

So let me just be clear: you object to even having to witness this so strongly that you don't want it to be an option?

Yeah I object to it since it will ruin the pve experience for many players and because it will ruin RVR PVP by dividing up the PvP player base. Zos should concentrate their resources on improving the real PVP and the real PVE.not turn everything into a messed up hybrid.

I know personally my PvE experience won't be ruined unless players can force me to PvP; or, if they can kill quest NPCs and merchants.
Since that does not appear to be possible as the system has currently been described, then my PvE experience will be largely untouched by other players PvPing. Unlike some people, I don't take offense to seeing other players enjoying themselves in a consensual PvP system.

I also don't feel that all PvP players should be forced into RvR if they want to PvP at all though; many of us do not prefer RvR as a form of PvP, but it is the only option currently made available to us.
I think the most common sort of PvP player involved in the Justice System will be the ones that aren't interested in RvR to begin with; they may not even be actually participating in RvR at all as is.

Chuggernaut · July 2014

Other (please explain).

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers, but I really was hoping that Werewolves and Vampires would be on the guard's s**t list automatically.

Like maybe they would be extra alert when ww&v players tried to steal stuff compared to other characters. I just think it would be nice if ww&v was more than a skill line, and npc on the whole actually took note.

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

I'm not sure how you can abuse that, but knock yourself out. I mean, you'll get knocked out by a player guild for guards, but you go ahead and pretend that you can somehow disrupt the game in any kind of lasting way.

Consistent abuse by players of dumb and bugged mechanics has done quite a bit of good to the game until now so yes I will 'knock myself out'.

The fact that the justice PVP can be balanced by grouping and organized guilds doesn't change the fact that many people do not what to witness a damn PvP war zone in a PVE zone.

So let me just be clear: you object to even having to witness this so strongly that you don't want it to be an option?

Yeah I object to it since it will ruin the pve experience for many players and because it will ruin RVR PVP by dividing up the PvP player base. Zos should concentrate their resources on improving the real PVP and the real PVE.not turn everything into a messed up hybrid.

How does other people having the option to sometimes take part in a system that may involve PvP in any way "ruin" a PvE player's experience? And I can't help but think that you're wrong about who wants this system. I'm primarily a PvE player, to the point that I've only spent enough time in Cyrodiil to complete the quests there. I'm thrilled about the prospect of having organic, small-scale PvP in the cities.

GnatB · July 2014

Other (please explain).

Audigy wrote: »

Ultima has shown very well that pve and pvp can coexist in a perfect balance. Its still the most successful MMO of all times - this says enough I think!

You also shouldn't make the mistake and mix up MMOs with FPS games. Battlefield, Medal of Honor etc. have zero to do with pvp, they are multiplayer games with RPG parts. Its a totally different genre which has nothing in common with an MMO.

1. Lol, Ultima is (or at least was at the time I quit) a PvP fest. It didn't balance PvE worth jack squat. And it certainly isn't the most successful MMO of all times. Edit: Upon re-reading, I guess I took the bait. You were being sarcastic, right?

2. PvP is player vs player competition/gameplay. Doesn't matter if it takes place in a first person shooter, a racing game, or a space flight simulator. Now, sure. None of the examples I gave are MMO's. Who cares? (There are, however, MMOFPS, MMORTS's, MMO driving games, etc. if you really want thousands of people FPSing, RTS'ng, driving, etc. all together. Realistically though there isn't much difference between Multiplayer games and MM games other than, perhaps, persistence. You're usually only engaged with a handful of people at once regardless. And, personally, I find PvP far more engaging when I actually know the people I'm up against, which is why I *personally* find non MMO PvP more interesting. I'll admit, I haven't really played much of the MMOFPS/RTS/Etc. (and since non MMO PvP tends to be far more successful than MMO PvP, I suspect I'm not alone in that opinion))

Samadhi wrote: »

So you're basically saying you think that ESO should be turned into a pure PvP game because it's multiplayer?

Pure PvE works best as single player; particularly because PvP doesn't exist in single-player scenarios.

No, that's putting words in my mouth. I said "But no, PvE and PvP don't mix, much like multi-player and single-player. Pick a combination, and stick to it. Trying to do all diminishes all."

I did *not* say that the single player option only goes with PvE, and that the multiplayer option only goes with PvP.

So, 4 technically possible combinations, but admittedly, one of them doesn't really make sense. (single player PvP) The other 3 are all perfectly valid.

Chuggernaut · July 2014

Other (please explain).

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

First thing i will do if the justice system is made like this is find or form a guild that only camps towns to kill player and npc guards all day and find every damn way to abuse it. If Zeni doesn't want this game to devolve into that maybe they should think more about their player driven justice system.

I'm not sure how you can abuse that, but knock yourself out. I mean, you'll get knocked out by a player guild for guards, but you go ahead and pretend that you can somehow disrupt the game in any kind of lasting way.

Consistent abuse by players of dumb and bugged mechanics has done quite a bit of good to the game until now so yes I will 'knock myself out'.

The fact that the justice PVP can be balanced by grouping and organized guilds doesn't change the fact that many people do not what to witness a damn PvP war zone in a PVE zone.

So let me just be clear: you object to even having to witness this so strongly that you don't want it to be an option?

Yeah I object to it since it will ruin the pve experience for many players and because it will ruin RVR PVP by dividing up the PvP player base. Zos should concentrate their resources on improving the real PVP and the real PVE.not turn everything into a messed up hybrid.

How does other people having the option to sometimes take part in a system that may involve PvP in any way "ruin" a PvE player's experience? And I can't help but think that you're wrong about who wants this system. I'm primarily a PvE player, to the point that I've only spent enough time in Cyrodiil to complete the quests there. I'm thrilled about the prospect of having organic, small-scale PvP in the cities.

I agree! If you don't want to pvp, don't get caught!

IcyDeadPeople · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I see it as a sort of throwback to Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMKypvmB0

Hasn't it always been a staple of TES games that the guards are much more powerful than the other NPCs? Didn't you ever accidentally click on a loaf of bread and promptly get owned by a gang of guards?

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Ok, naysayers. The voting has remained solid since the poll opened:

70% favor the basic mechanics of the new system. Want to tell me again about how ZO isn't listening to the "majority" on this one?

Elencha · July 2014

Other (please explain).

There are options definitely missing from this poll. For instance, the “I’m entirely reserving judgment until I see how this justice system actually plays out” option. This is the most accurate description of my true opinion at this stage. As I have heard it described, discounting player interpretation and sticking strictly to what has actually been stated by employees of Zenimax, there isn’t enough information.

Actual WoG on this topic seems to be limited to:
Crimes will be punished by fines/murder.

What percentage of looted containers will be marked as owned?
What happens if the guard kills you, does your bounty disappear? What if you defeat the guard?
Are there certain materials that are currently freely lootable which will henceforth only be found in containers that are flagged as owned?

Players who have decided to enlist as guards may join in the killing and fine collection.

When sneaking, will I be alerted to the presence of player guards, or will it just be the standard alert that anyone at all can see me.
Since stealing will flag a player for PvP, will there be any balances in place that ensure that a level 10 thief, presumably in medium armor and not using a staff, has at least a fighting chance against a Vet 12 guard with a dress and a stick?
How will NPC react to being attacked? Will the battle phase to a separate instance if someone is currently interacting with him/her or will this be a disruption to the person interacting with said NPC?

Personally, I’d prefer the PvP aspect be specifically opt-in because I love playing a thief and assassin and decidedly do not want to play PvP, but it’s their game so, whatever, if I don’t like it I’ll leave or just delete my NightBlade and see if it’s any fun playing some other style. I certainly don’t expect them to change anything on my account.
As to the question of how to “balance” the system if they allow one to opt-out of PvP while still taking part in the Justice system, I don’t know that I understand the question. If you mean how do you motivate players to PvP since PvE is intrinsically easier, I would say that you don’t. Self-determination will do it for you. If someone wants to PvP, they will choose to do so because it is what they enjoy, and there is no good reason to deny them the option. On the other hand, if someone doesn’t want to PvP, they will choose not to because it is not what they enjoy, and there is equally no good reason to deny them the option.
Again though, depending on the answers to the above questions, I can probably live with the system under most circumstances. For me it all depends on how much I’ll have to give up in order to avoid PvP.

jircris11 · July 2014

Other (please explain).

personally this would kill ESO for me, i have to avoid dungeons (raid type ones) and pvp due to a heart condition. To much stress or adrenalin and i will be in the hospital again. Now if there was a "flag for pvp" option then it would be fine. let those who want to be pvp everywhere flag them self's. and leave those who want pve only as a non-killable mark.

Samadhi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

rob.shzaub17_ESO wrote: »

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers, but I really was hoping that Werewolves and Vampires would be on the guard's s**t list automatically.

Like maybe they would be extra alert when ww&v players tried to steal stuff compared to other characters. I just think it would be nice if ww&v was more than a skill line, and npc on the whole actually took note.

I agree with this.
I would love to actually have this sort of risk added to being a Stage 4 vampire. Even more than just the risk factor, it would flesh out vampire and werewolf as mechanics a lot.
I think there are number of players who would unfortunately object to such a system though.

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

jircris11 wrote: »

personally this would kill ESO for me, i have to avoid dungeons (raid type ones) and pvp due to a heart condition. To much stress or adrenalin and i will be in the hospital again. Now if there was a "flag for pvp" option then it would be fine. let those who want to be pvp everywhere flag them self's. and leave those who want pve only as a non-killable mark.

Well the system is opt-in as it currently stands. If you're already avoiding dungeons, etc. due to your medical condition, you would just want to avoid criminal activity as well.

Samadhi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

GnatB wrote: »

...

Samadhi wrote: »

So you're basically saying you think that ESO should be turned into a pure PvP game because it's multiplayer?

Pure PvE works best as single player; particularly because PvP doesn't exist in single-player scenarios.

No, that's putting words in my mouth. I said "But no, PvE and PvP don't mix, much like multi-player and single-player. Pick a combination, and stick to it. Trying to do all diminishes all."

I did *not* say that the single player option only goes with PvE, and that the multiplayer option only goes with PvP.

So, 4 technically possible combinations, but admittedly, one of them doesn't really make sense. (single player PvP) The other 3 are all perfectly valid.

Ah, my error. You will have to forgive me for miscomprehension of the point you were trying to make.

I don't agree that MMORPGs need to choose between PvE or PvP; by their nature they are games well suited to having both systems.
I've personally never played a pure PvE MMORPG of any sort though.

If this game had been released as entirely PvE I would have been massively disappointed though.
Not due to some sort of PvP fanaticism, mind you.

I would be disappointed because the PvE in this game is largely a step down from previous iterations of the Elder Scrolls series. The PvE is solid, and good in its own right. For an MMORPG, I do like the PvE.
However, if Elder Scrolls Online were released as pure PvE, I would forever feel that the game would have performed better as another single-player game.
Content in this game isn't very "Elder Scrollsish" in feel; it's predominately "MMORPGish"; it's very linear, very predictable, doesn't feel sandboxy, doesn't feel organic, and lacks in challenge in a lot of regards.

Right now, Cyrodiil is the saving grace of the game, to me. PvPing other players in Cyrodiil provides the kind of organic and exciting combat I expect from the Elder Scrolls series; I'm very glad this sort of feeling will be extending to the other maps via the Justice System, even if it is not as complete as true world PvP would have been.
I'm also glad ZOS appears to have found a way to introduce on-map PvP without forcing PvE players into it; this means if I personally ever feel like not participating in PvP, I am free to refrain from flagging myself and entering into the PvP system.

Samadhi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

jircris11 wrote: »

personally this would kill ESO for me, i have to avoid dungeons (raid type ones) and pvp due to a heart condition. To much stress or adrenalin and i will be in the hospital again. Now if there was a "flag for pvp" option then it would be fine. let those who want to be pvp everywhere flag them self's. and leave those who want pve only as a non-killable mark.

I can relate somewhat to your issue.
I abstain from all group dungeons, and have not experienced any of the group content in Craglorn.
I suffer from a massive anxiety condition, and I find groups overwhelming.

Since Early Access I have only ever spent any grouped time with my girlfriend; we've skipped over all the 4 person dungeons and Craglorn group content.

PvP does not provide me with such issues though; honestly I just give myself the mental screen of viewing all enemy players as simply highly advanced mobs. lol.

Fortunately for those in your position, the content revealed regarding the Justice System seems to be hinged on an opt-in process for PvP.

Taz · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

On the werewolf and vampire detection in the Justice System, I think that if a werewolf transforms in public (you know, when werewolfism is a toggle wink wink nudge nudge) it should flag them for attack by the guards/bounty, a lot like how it worked in Skyrim. Likewise, if a Vampire tries to unstealthily feed on a citizen, or is in stage 4, they should also be flagged down by guards, again much like it worked in Skyrim.

But I definitely like what I've heard so far.

Ltankb14_ESO · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

This poll seems pretty conclusive.

Audigy · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

jircris11 wrote: »

personally this would kill ESO for me, i have to avoid dungeons (raid type ones) and pvp due to a heart condition. To much stress or adrenalin and i will be in the hospital again. Now if there was a "flag for pvp" option then it would be fine. let those who want to be pvp everywhere flag them self's. and leave those who want pve only as a non-killable mark.

As long you don't become a criminal ingame, nothing will happen

The game will only punish those who steal or kill in towns, so just stay away from this and nobody will ever be able to attack you. This is like a pvp flag feature, it works like that in every MMO I played so far - do bad things and be killable, do good thing and you are not

I hope your heart is able to heal again, good Luck!

Vis · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

But they must tread very carefully.

Several gold/xp scams instantly come to mind. They need a way to encourage us to enforce the justice without giving us reasons to exploit it with partners in crime.

ThisOnePosts · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I am very happy with what the developers have so far revealed about the Justice System and am looking forward to it. I feel like a kid looking forward to Christmas (almost)!

Anastasia · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

ebuntsb14_ESO wrote: »

my biggest problem will be higher level players killing lower level players. This is and has always been an issue with any pvp environment.

Also I play in pve zones since I do not like or care for pvp . Now im going to have to put up with pvp , in banks, mage/fighter guild halls, ect.

What about alliance members of same alliance not involved in pvp with same alliance members? Seems ZOS is going to have to back track on that to let it happen.

If the mega server is going to become a pvp server then we will need a pve only mega server as well.

I did not buy one game play style to be put into a totally different game play style than what I purchased.

Heh, then MMO's aren't for you. Thats what I was told when I opposed the nerfing of V+ 1-10 PvE content. TESO was advertised and promoted to have solo play at lower levels and decently challenging grouping-centric content for Veteran levels.

This dilution and change directly affects the experience and path of PvE players arriving at endgame.

But ZOS nerfed the mob difficulty instead of raising the loot rewards, or the grouping e x p bonus or other players suggestions. So, those of us who are MMO veterans and who bought and subbed to TESO because of specific elements that were touted to be a core component, now sit with a mid to upper level game that continues to have stam/magicka ratio issues, no reason to group or practice in groups for endgame, and solo'rs who demanded solo-through-all-content-anytime-all-the-time are now lobbying for soloable endgame as well.

I agree >>> Not the same game I purchased either.

Hopefully we will get some additional facts from the dev team about this exciting Justice System which they already have created as to how its going to be implemented. I wonder if they will be going with what they created, or diluting it to make it privately phased and of little consequence or motivation. Waiting. Oh, just thought of something...are the player 'guards' gonna just run alongside each other for this or will they send group invites? Oops ... might just get some carrots for GROUPING IN TESO yet!!

ItsGlaive · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Also a biased poll. Option three indicates you don't have a choice but you do - don't steal or murder and you won't be flagged

Kronosphere · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

"I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action."

not sure if someone has already said this. but you DO have a choice. thats like saying "i think its b/s i am "forced" to get jail time and a fine if i CHOOSE to steal a car in real life"

you REALLY REALLY do have a choice this option shouldnt even be here as described like that.

every time you undock you consent to pvp.. uh wait wrong game.. =P

Logan9a · July 2014

I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.

Welka wrote: »

Mortalio wrote: »

If you wanted a single player game, this is not the game for you. Plus, who's dumb enough to pay a sub for a solo game?.... Chew on that

If you can't figure out why someone would play solo in a persistent world, you are not thinking hard enough. Rather than chewing, cogitate upon that.

Grim · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

This is one of the few proposed ideas that has pretty overwhelming community support. Close to 70% approval given four options should say it all.

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Xabien wrote: »

Also a biased poll. Option three indicates you don't have a choice but you do - don't steal or murder and you won't be flagged

I agree with you, but I included that option in order to make the poll unbiased for the people who think that it isn't enough.

ItsGlaive · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

Also a biased poll. Option three indicates you don't have a choice but you do - don't steal or murder and you won't be flagged

I agree with you, but I included that option in order to make the poll unbiased for the people who think that it isn't enough.

That doesn't make it unbiased though, it just skews the data in their favour

Dayel · July 2014

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

Any option that requires PVP hopefully will be right out, unless there is a opt-out mechanism. I do not mind being busted by the Guards and will not fight them, but if forced to PVP the only thing I am going to do is standing there and die fast or do whatever indicates surrender. It's very simple, outside of the rare battleground of the variety we do not have here, I do not fight players period the end. Someday if I am really bored I might try Cyro but that is not at all sure.