An Actual Poll About the Justice System

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Xabien wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

Also a biased poll. Option three indicates you don't have a choice but you do - don't steal or murder and you won't be flagged

I agree with you, but I included that option in order to make the poll unbiased for the people who think that it isn't enough.

That doesn't make it unbiased though, it just skews the data in their favour

Again, I agree. But this poll was created as a direct response to another biased poll (where two options were given, neither of which reflected the proposed system) and a series of posts where a vocal minority insisted that the overwhelming majority of players wanted a system where they could choose whether or not their criminal actions even had the possibility of flagging them for PvP. I included the option, as much as I believe that the system already makes flagging a conscious choice, because I wanted to see if they were right.

And overwhelmingly, they have been voted down. They do not represent the majority in any way, shape, or form. Since this poll started, the support for the system as-is has remained steady at 70%, and that's not counting any of the "Other" votes who stated that they like it but want things like jail/monster-justice/etc.

TequilaFire

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

@Dayel You bring up a point I had not even considered.
I hope there will be an option to surrender to a player guard and pay the fine and the player guard will have to accept that and that removes the pvp flag so they can't just kill you anyway just like with the NPC guard.
Although most of the times I will just fight there might be a time I find myself with my resources down and just might choose to pay the bounty at that point.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

TequilaFire wrote: »

@Dayel You bring up a point I had not even considered.
I hope there will be an option to surrender to a player guard and pay the fine and the player guard will have to accept that and that removes the pvp flag so they can't just kill you anyway just like with the NPC guard.
Although most of the times I will just fight there might be a time I find myself with my resources down and just might choose to pay the bounty at that point.

The video shown at Quakecon made it pretty clear that you would not be open to attack from NPC or player guards until you declined to pay your fine.

Mortalio

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

However this system is constructed, My no is based on Zeni's Sledghammer implemation of new stuff it will most probably be bugged to oblivion, and full off flaws and mistakes. And it will be us players that will bear the brunt. It is as Always my wiew and opinion and by god i hope i will be wrong.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Mortalio wrote: »

However this system is constructed, My no is based on Zeni's Sledghammer implemation of new stuff it will most probably be bugged to oblivion, and full off flaws and mistakes. And it will be us players that will bear the brunt. It is as Always my wiew and opinion and by god i hope i will be wrong.

So you're not actually opposed to the system mechanics, you just wanted to use this space to rant about a perceived problem with implementation.

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Mortalio wrote: »

However this system is constructed, My no is based on Zeni's Sledghammer implemation of new stuff it will most probably be bugged to oblivion, and full off flaws and mistakes. And it will be us players that will bear the brunt. It is as Always my wiew and opinion and by god i hope i will be wrong.

I think the poll option you were looking for is "Other," because adding in an additional option to completely avoid PvP wouldn't do anything to fix any potential bugs.
Adding such an option could actually exacerbate such issues, because players could flag themselves to avoid PvP, and then exploit bugged NPC guards like crazy for personal gain without fear of repercussions.

Dovel

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Looks good to me!

Mortalio

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

If you belive a different opinion than yours is ranting then i guess yes. I do not think it will work and no i do not like the idea at all. Pvp in this game is good as it is, But my, my here i rant about not agreeing to you again.

Kafolarbear

Other (please explain).

It just seems to me that crime will not pay.

Yes that was both serious and a joke.

Nox_Aeterna

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

Samadhi wrote: »

Mortalio wrote: »

However this system is constructed, My no is based on Zeni's Sledghammer implemation of new stuff it will most probably be bugged to oblivion, and full off flaws and mistakes. And it will be us players that will bear the brunt. It is as Always my wiew and opinion and by god i hope i will be wrong.

I think the poll option you were looking for is "Other," because adding in an additional option to completely avoid PvP wouldn't do anything to fix any potential bugs.
Adding such an option could actually exacerbate such issues, because players could flag themselves to avoid PvP, and then exploit bugged NPC guards like crazy for personal gain without fear of repercussions.

:P Really now?

The fact that PvP players are probably the ones that exploit the most in the game on the other hand does not raise any flags?

It is true PvE players could find a path to exploit the game , but you can be damm sure that if there is one PvP players can use , they will also do it.

So one way or the other zen will have to fix any possible exploit , having it PvE only or with PvP changes nothing at all.

Welka

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

By the divines! Justice system is NOT PVP. Forced PVP even less!

It is:
- implementation of thieves guild
- Implementation of dark brotherhood
- Another important use of sneaking
- A world responsive to theft and aggression to NPC
- a deeper RP in Tamriel and a feature always present in ES games
- Some difficulty added to provisioning which is ridiculously easy at this point
- A use for the potion of invisibility
- A more living, dynamic world
- finally, a small chance of being owned by a player guard IF you're clumsy enough to be seen stealing or killing and IF you're too poor to pay you're bounty or IF you try your luck with the guard. And even IF you escape the NPC guard, it doesn't mean you will get owned by a player guard, you could always get aggro by another NPC guard and wipe

I'm sure other people here will have other examples of pros for the JS. But yet we're still to read a valid con, or a valid reason to why people should be able to opt out of PVP, beside the will to exploit the JS without consequences.

But the argument that players are forced to do PVP with the JS is entirely false.

I don't do PVP yet and I voted no for open world PVP as I believe PVE zones should stay the way they are for those who (like me) enjoy questing in their corners or in small group without watching their backs every 2mn.

But if you're gonna steal, attack and kill recklessly, be prepared to POSSIBLY have to face a player guard. It's no big deal and the JS is, I hope, one of many implementation that will bring some life and spontaneity to Tamriel.

nerevarine1138

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Mortalio wrote: »

If you belive a different opinion than yours is ranting then i guess yes. I do not think it will work and no i do not like the idea at all. Pvp in this game is good as it is, But my, my here i rant about not agreeing to you again.

I don't have a problem with a differing opinion. I have an issue with your opinion being, "I like the system, but bugs-and-stuff-and-exploits so I don't support it." If you don't support the justice system because the coding might not be perfect the first time around, then you should be against every single change to the game.

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Mortalio wrote: »

However this system is constructed, My no is based on Zeni's Sledghammer implemation of new stuff it will most probably be bugged to oblivion, and full off flaws and mistakes. And it will be us players that will bear the brunt. It is as Always my wiew and opinion and by god i hope i will be wrong.

I think the poll option you were looking for is "Other," because adding in an additional option to completely avoid PvP wouldn't do anything to fix any potential bugs.
Adding such an option could actually exacerbate such issues, because players could flag themselves to avoid PvP, and then exploit bugged NPC guards like crazy for personal gain without fear of repercussions.

:P Really now?

The fact that PvP players are probably the ones that exploit the most in the game on the other hand does not raise any flags?

It is true PvE players could find a path to exploit the game , but you can be damm sure that if there is one PvP players can use , they will also do it.

So one way or the other zen will have to fix any possible exploit , having it PvE only or with PvP changes nothing at all.

In my personal experience, there are plenty of players that use PvE exploits, just less of them are inclined to report exploits.
PvP exploits get reported frequently due to them constantly impacting the experience of other players.
PvE exploits tend get hidden so they can be exploited as long as possible.

This view is also influenced by the fact that the gaming company I do moderation work for faces the same issues. A skill bug that can be exploited in PvP gets reported quickly; a bug in PvE content gets exploited by those who found until other players start to feel the impact of it through the economy.
We had a skill hitting through all shields in PvP -- it was reported within 48 hours.
We had a map that could be glitched for the best PvE drops in the game while not taking any damage from mobs -- it was reported 3 months later, after the top alliances on the servers had exploited it on a daily basis and completely altered the in-game economy.

I think the whole "PvP players are probably the ones that exploit most in the game" view is akin to the "PvP players are griefers" type of view. It is strictly a product of bias against PvP players.
Exploiters, like griefers, transcend the categories of PvP or PvE and simply do whatever they can to get ahead and have advantage over other players.
Modifying the Justice System to completely remove an entire portion of the designed punishments just increases the ease of exploitation.

You're perfectly entitled to hold whatever opinion you wish; however, it indicates to me that you have a rather biased view against PvP players if you somehow think that as a group they are more inclined to exploit.

Adding additional system features means additional opportunities to cause bugs.
A player concerned about bugs with a new system would, logically, be more inclined to request the system not be added at all, rather than additional potentially bugged content be added to it.

Mortalio

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

I do not support the JS system as it it described now. I would not have a problem with guards or fines, Imprisonment and whatnot, But i am firmly against the Pvp flagging for crime. Players should not interfear in a thief/assasin system. That should be as in Oblivion and Skyrim. Guards Ranking player in streangth and skill. And yes i belive implementing is a big factor in such system since it can severly cripple play in Pve-zones. And if you do Think i just do not support it for buggs and stuff reasons, i can not explain more clearly for you

Navithra

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I'm not sure if this has been said, but- couldn't PVP only be flagged on a player after they've reached a certain bounty level?

If the majority of posts here have been assuming that you can be actively hunted by Player Guards the instant you occur a bounty, it would just make sense to then raise the bounty level to a point in which you turn into PvP active.

If I steal a piece of bread, dying for it seems silly. If I kill a man, or steal enough items- then hey, fair game.

Or, they could base it off of detection by a guard. Once detected, you're flagged for PvP if you run for it?

Moreover, there are still some questions to be answered anyway. Like...do guards stop you on sight when your bounty hits a certain amount? Do you have to get caught once before you're stopped?


Though, beyond what was presented, this is all assuming that they don't already have a plan in place. I'm sure once it hits PTS, it will undergo some major tweaking and end up not too shabby.

Nox_Aeterna

I don't like the justice system as described; I want to be able to choose whether my character is able to be flagged for PvP action.

Samadhi wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Mortalio wrote: »

However this system is constructed, My no is based on Zeni's Sledghammer implemation of new stuff it will most probably be bugged to oblivion, and full off flaws and mistakes. And it will be us players that will bear the brunt. It is as Always my wiew and opinion and by god i hope i will be wrong.

I think the poll option you were looking for is "Other," because adding in an additional option to completely avoid PvP wouldn't do anything to fix any potential bugs.
Adding such an option could actually exacerbate such issues, because players could flag themselves to avoid PvP, and then exploit bugged NPC guards like crazy for personal gain without fear of repercussions.

:P Really now?

The fact that PvP players are probably the ones that exploit the most in the game on the other hand does not raise any flags?

It is true PvE players could find a path to exploit the game , but you can be damm sure that if there is one PvP players can use , they will also do it.

So one way or the other zen will have to fix any possible exploit , having it PvE only or with PvP changes nothing at all.

In my personal experience, there are plenty of players that use PvE exploits, just less of them are inclined to report exploits.
PvP exploits get reported frequently due to them constantly impacting the experience of other players.
PvE exploits tend get hidden so they can be exploited as long as possible.

This view is also influenced by the fact that the gaming company I do moderation work for faces the same issues. A skill bug that can be exploited in PvP gets reported quickly; a bug in PvE content gets exploited by those who found until other players start to feel the impact of it through the economy.
We had a skill hitting through all shields in PvP -- it was reported within 48 hours.
We had a map that could be glitched for the best PvE drops in the game while not taking any damage from mobs -- it was reported 3 months later, after the top alliances on the servers had exploited it on a daily basis and completely altered the in-game economy.

I think the whole "PvP players are probably the ones that exploit most in the game" view is akin to the "PvP players are griefers" type of view. It is strictly a product of bias against PvP players.
Exploiters, like griefers, transcend the categories of PvP or PvE and simply do whatever they can to get ahead and have advantage over other players.
Modifying the Justice System to completely remove an entire portion of the designed punishments just increases the ease of exploitation.

You're perfectly entitled to hold whatever opinion you wish; however, it indicates to me that you have a rather biased view against PvP players if you somehow think that as a group they are more inclined to exploit.

Adding additional system features means additional opportunities to cause bugs.
A player concerned about bugs with a new system would, logically, be more inclined to request the system not be added at all, rather than additional potentially bugged content be added to it.

While you are right that adding more to the system brings a higher chance of bugs , in the end of the day , there will be probably bugs anyway.

If there is one thing zen does with which patch , even more the bigger ones , is add bugs also.

So bugs will probably be there, that should not make us ask for one less feature in the system because of it. I would be surprised if the system even works like they told us by design and they did not change anything already actually.

Also , i dont think PvP player = griefer , BUT there are many griefers that use PvP to bother other players , it is that simple. Hell , sometimes they are not even griefers , they are just players that want to kill every other player , problem is PvE players dont want to fight others at all.

We have yet to see how the system actually works , BUT there are good chances it will be an important system for much more than just allowing PvP in the PvE zones , since DB and thieves guilds got a good chance to require it to lvl. The ways to avoid PvP should be plenty AND should not put PvE players in a bind because they dont want to do it, otherwise we are sure to see tons of complains about the system.

Welka

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Navithra wrote: »

I'm not sure if this has been said, but- couldn't PVP only be flagged on a player after they've reached a certain bounty level?

If the majority of posts here have been assuming that you can be actively hunted by Player Guards the instant you occur a bounty, it would just make sense to then raise the bounty level to a point in which you turn into PvP active.

If I steal a piece of bread, dying for it seems silly. If I kill a man, or steal enough items- then hey, fair game.

Or, they could base it off of detection by a guard. Once detected, you're flagged for PvP if you run for it?

Moreover, there are still some questions to be answered anyway. Like...do guards stop you on sight when your bounty hits a certain amount? Do you have to get caught once before you're stopped?


Though, beyond what was presented, this is all assuming that they don't already have a plan in place. I'm sure once it hits PTS, it will undergo some major tweaking and end up not too shabby.

It's already been said at quakecon that you get flagged for PVP only above a certain level of bounty

Anastasia

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Navithra wrote: »

I'm not sure if this has been said, but- couldn't PVP only be flagged on a player after they've reached a certain bounty level?

If the majority of posts here have been assuming that you can be actively hunted by Player Guards the instant you occur a bounty, it would just make sense to then raise the bounty level to a point in which you turn into PvP active.

If I steal a piece of bread, dying for it seems silly. If I kill a man, or steal enough items- then hey, fair game.

Or, they could base it off of detection by a guard. Once detected, you're flagged for PvP if you run for it?

Moreover, there are still some questions to be answered anyway. Like...do guards stop you on sight when your bounty hits a certain amount? Do you have to get caught once before you're stopped?


Though, beyond what was presented, this is all assuming that they don't already have a plan in place. I'm sure once it hits PTS, it will undergo some major tweaking and end up not too shabby.

---

Greeat idea Navithra. I do think however the Justice System would not have been presented to the public at large without a pretty good chunk of it already in place.

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

...
We have yet to see how the system actually works , BUT there are good chances it will be an important system for much more than just allowing PvP in the PvE zones , since DB and thieves guilds got a good chance to require it to lvl. The ways to avoid PvP should be plenty AND should not put PvE players in a bind because they dont want to do it, otherwise we are sure to see tons of complains about the system.

You're correct, we do have yet to see the specifics of how the system actually works.
However, the information presented thus far indicates, to me, that there will already be sufficient safeguards in place for legitimate PvE players to avoid flagging.
It is entirely possible the only complaints about the system will be made by players who found the ability to exploit the mechanics with NPC guards, but have player guards hindering that exploitation.

The Quakecon video even stated that the developers are fully aware that players will find ways around NPC guards, as such they are providing the role of player guards to enact justice on players that haven't paid bounties.
Having the developers turn around and turn that feature off does not make sense to me, unless I look at it from the angle of how it would benefit me in being able to exploit the system without other players interfering.

I totally respect that there are players that fear or abhor participation in PvP, but nothing has been stated that indicates players will be forced to PvP in the system as it is.

Navithra

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Welka wrote: »

It's already been said at quakecon that you get flagged for PVP only above a certain level of bounty

I double checked the video, and some of the notes by dulfy.net. I didn't see that actually mentioned by the team- however- I certainly wasn't there, so if it was said- I missed it.

Either way, though, sounds good to me.

Anastasia wrote: »

Greeat idea Navithra. I do think however the Justice System would not have been presented to the public at large without a pretty good chunk of it already in place.

I'm absolutely certain they've got the majority of it set in stone. My intent, however, was to draw attention to the fact that despite the short presentation- there are still plenty of questions still worth asking about mechanic details that haven't yet been released.

And perhaps offer up some solutions (that I'd not been entirely sure hadn't been presented yet, at least in this thread.)

DieAlteHexe

Samadhi wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

...
...

I totally respect that there are players that fear or abhor participation in PvP, but nothing has been stated that indicates players will be forced to PvP in the system as it is.

From what I have seen, I do believe that there will be very close attention paid to keeping those who wish not to participate out of it.

Oh, it's not "fear" (it's a game for goodness sakes) nor abhorrence. It's disinterest. Nothing so dramatic, just...disinterest. I'm all for folk who wish to PvP having lots of fun doing so, just don't care to be dragged into it unless I choose to be.

I think that's how it'll all work out here too.

GnatB

Other (please explain).

Kronosphere wrote: »

not sure if someone has already said this. but you DO have a choice. thats like saying "i think its b/s i am "forced" to get jail time and a fine if i CHOOSE to steal a car in real life"

Ah, but the problem, as I see it, is that it's a strictly PvE activity that triggers PvP. (particularly stealing). Some people may simply want to be thieves for whatever reason.

It's unclear how/if the thieves/assassins guild will be implemented, but it seems fairly likely they will require stealing from/killing NPC's. Throw that into the justice system, and you've got a substantial portion of nominally PvE content that quite likely requires (or at very least, risks) flagging for PvP. Now sure, they could make it so the one chest in town that has the item you're supposed to steal from doesn't trigger the justice system, or the one person you're supposed to kill. Or make even make it such that you're only stealing from/killing guys in dungeons. But I'd argue that misses much of the point.

'Course, I guess they *could* make it such that the Thieves/Assassins guilds are basically pure PvP content. (Which I'll admit, would greatly disappoint me). Do something where the people you have to steal from/kill are PC guards or some such. Not really sure how you'd actually do a questline there. Though a final "Assassinate the emperor" quest for the Assassins guild seems like an interesting possibility for the PvPers.

GnatB

Other (please explain).

Samadhi wrote: »

Adding such an option could actually exacerbate such issues, because players could flag themselves to avoid PvP, and then exploit bugged NPC guards like crazy for personal gain without fear of repercussions.

Unless you expect Zeni to start putting blue/purple/yellow weapons and armor in bank cabinets, I'm curious what sort of "exploiting the guards" you're concerned about. Especially considering they have to take into account the likely probability of people simply not being caught in the first place.


I mean, I guess they could do something like some castle instance where players can sign on to be guards, and then other players sign on to be thieves, (but only as long as there are players signed on to be guards, so you can make it so it's actually the PC's responsibility to detect the thieves), and then if the guards protect the treasure for a certain period of time they get rewards, if the thieves steal the treasure they get the treasure... but that's just basically some form of combat optional capture the flag mode.

Welka

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

GnatB wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Adding such an option could actually exacerbate such issues, because players could flag themselves to avoid PvP, and then exploit bugged NPC guards like crazy for personal gain without fear of repercussions.

Unless you expect Zeni to start putting blue/purple/yellow weapons and armor in bank cabinets, I'm curious what sort of "exploiting the guards" you're concerned about. Especially considering they have to take into account the likely probability of people simply not being caught in the first place.


I mean, I guess they could do something like some castle instance where players can sign on to be guards, and then other players sign on to be thieves, (but only as long as there are players signed on to be guards, so you can make it so it's actually the PC's responsibility to detect the thieves), and then if the guards protect the treasure for a certain period of time they get rewards, if the thieves steal the treasure they get the treasure... but that's just basically some form of combat optional capture the flag mode.

Motif farming can be seen as an exploit for starters, and probably is

Samadhi

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

GnatB wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Adding such an option could actually exacerbate such issues, because players could flag themselves to avoid PvP, and then exploit bugged NPC guards like crazy for personal gain without fear of repercussions.

Unless you expect Zeni to start putting blue/purple/yellow weapons and armor in bank cabinets, I'm curious what sort of "exploiting the guards" you're concerned about. Especially considering they have to take into account the likely probability of people simply not being caught in the first place.
...

Types of potential exploitation or griefing would be contingent upon the choice of measures taken to modify the system.

GnatB

Other (please explain).

Welka wrote: »

Motif farming can be seen as an exploit for starters, and probably is

Which, even if true, will probably be completely unaffected by the justice system, other than the motif farmers will be even more likely to be alts not wearing clothes. (why let them get damaged when you let the guard kill you for non-payment)

Cody

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

a mix between option 1 and 3 for me, but I chose option one in the end. players should be allowed to stay unflagged if they want. besides that, I like it so far

Anastasia

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

GnatB wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Adding such an option could actually exacerbate such issues, because players could flag themselves to avoid PvP, and then exploit bugged NPC guards like crazy for personal gain without fear of repercussions.

Unless you expect Zeni to start putting blue/purple/yellow weapons and armor in bank cabinets, I'm curious what sort of "exploiting the guards" you're concerned about. Especially considering they have to take into account the likely probability of people simply not being caught in the first place.


I mean, I guess they could do something like some castle instance where players can sign on to be guards, and then other players sign on to be thieves, (but only as long as there are players signed on to be guards, so you can make it so it's actually the PC's responsibility to detect the thieves), and then if the guards protect the treasure for a certain period of time they get rewards, if the thieves steal the treasure they get the treasure... but that's just basically some form of combat optional capture the flag mode.

---

Whoa now GnatB... "like some castle instance where players can sign on to be guards, and then other players sign on to be thieves, (but only as long as there are players signed on to be guards, so you can make it so it's actually the PC's responsibility to detect the thieves)" ... that sounds suspiciously like GROUPING. Na-uh-uh.

TehMagnus

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

The fact that PvP players are probably the ones that exploit the most in the game on the other hand does not raise any flags?

It is true PvE players could find a path to exploit the game , but you can be damm sure that if there is one PvP players can use , they will also do it.

So one way or the other zen will have to fix any possible exploit , having it PvE only or with PvP changes nothing at all.

This is the second time you say this nonsense in a different post.

PVE players are the biggest mechanics exploiters in the game that's a fact because the only thing that has mechanics IS the environement and the game itself (skills behaviour). Moreover, ZOS has fixed most mechanic exploits in PVP content which they haven't done in PVE.

PVE Exploits:
When you do Veteran Sewers & pull the boss in the hole on the left so he doesn't spawn adds: Exploit.
When you skip ads in trials: Exploit.

In fact: Most of the dungeons & Veteran dungeons *tactics* use mechanics exploits. How many dungeons are there? more than 18?

You can also add to this to the list:
- Killing mage on ressources tower in Cyrodill with a NB without he hitting you back (which is PVE exploit).
People oiling flags to kill NPCs: Fixed (PVE exploit)

And yes those two last items are in the PVE exploit and not PVP because even if it happens in PVP areas, you're still exploiting the Environement content, not PVP.

Exploits of PVP:
DKs pulling people from walls: Fixed.
People getting in starting areas of other alliances: Partly fixed & offenders getting baned.


PVE is much easier to exploit than PVP since PVP is Player VS Player and you can't predict other player mechanics so you can't exploit them. This is why it's much more easy to exploit PVE content, this is why PVErs(which also includes PVP players doing PVE) exploit more than pure PVPers and this is the main reason they are introducing PVP in the Justice system.

Welka

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

PVP players are evil by nature and do PVP only to exploit and grief, fact!

Meh...