An Actual Poll About the Justice System

Nestor · July 2014

I don't like the justice system as described; I don't want players to be involved in enforcement.

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And how would the NPC guards being the justice system change it for you? You'd still be seeing crime in the streets and guards chasing criminals. And since your main issue appears to be witnessing crime, I don't see how the system is any better or worse when it includes PvP elements.

Where did I ever say that witnessing crime is the problem? What I don't want is swarms of player controlled characters taking out NPCs in a town that I spent time and effort liberating or making safe. Why bother if they are going to be attacked anyway? I can just bypass the towns now as there is no reason to liberate them. The banks right now are a pain to go to with all the spell spam and mock battles going on in and near those places.

PvP people don't like whenever someone suggests PvE in Cyrodill. I guess it can't be the other way around.

Like I said, I will see how it goes on the PTS, but this may stop me from playing the game. Maybe I can get my yet to be rolled EP character through the game before this goes live.

You can like this all you want, and I am sorry my opinion is not the same as yours. But, guess what, I don't like it, and I will state that no matter how much you don't want to hear it.

Welka · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Nestor wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And how would the NPC guards being the justice system change it for you? You'd still be seeing crime in the streets and guards chasing criminals. And since your main issue appears to be witnessing crime, I don't see how the system is any better or worse when it includes PvP elements.

The banks right now are a pain to go to with all the spell spam and mock battles going on in and near those places.

What level are you? Seriously. This doesn't happen anymore in lv 40+ zones and vet zones

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Nestor wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And how would the NPC guards being the justice system change it for you? You'd still be seeing crime in the streets and guards chasing criminals. And since your main issue appears to be witnessing crime, I don't see how the system is any better or worse when it includes PvP elements.

Where did I ever say that witnessing crime is the problem? What I don't want is swarms of player controlled characters taking out NPCs in a town that I spent time and effort liberating or making safe. Why bother if they are going to be attacked anyway? I can just bypass the towns now as there is no reason to liberate them. The banks right now are a pain to go to with all the spell spam and mock battles going on in and near those places.

PvP people don't like whenever someone suggests PvE in Cyrodill. I guess it can't be the other way around.

Like I said, I will see how it goes on the PTS, but this may stop me from playing the game. Maybe I can get my yet to be rolled EP character through the game before this goes live.

You can like this all you want, and I am sorry my opinion is not the same as yours. But, guess what, I don't like it, and I will state that no matter how much you don't want to hear it.

I didn't say I don't want to hear your opinion. I'm saying that you seem to be missing the point: your issues with the system exist regardless of whether it includes PvP elements. Roving gangs of criminals will be taking out NPCs in towns you've liberated even if the system only had NPC guards.

DenverRalphy · July 2014

Other (please explain).

Welka wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And how would the NPC guards being the justice system change it for you? You'd still be seeing crime in the streets and guards chasing criminals. And since your main issue appears to be witnessing crime, I don't see how the system is any better or worse when it includes PvP elements.

The banks right now are a pain to go to with all the spell spam and mock battles going on in and near those places.

What level are you? Seriously. This doesn't happen anymore in lv 40+ zones and vet zones

I haven't seen it at any level. I strongly suspect that it's just something some players manufacture just so they can complain. Sure, it might happen once every new moon... But it's not like it's an epidemic or anything.

Halorin · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Nestor wrote: »

What I don't want are swarms of player controlled characters taking out NPCs in a town that I spent time and effort liberating or making safe.

Fixed your botched grammar, but.

You know what would stop swarms of player controlled characters taking out NPCs in a town you spent time and effort liberating? Player controlled guards mixed with NPC guards. It would be regenerating content to make sure the efforts of your character was not in vain.

You could continue that chapter of your character's adventure by keeping the towns free from criminal scum that would dare lay a finger on the heads of the civilians who you just risked your neck for. Who in Oblivion are they to try to take from this war torn town that's barely hanging on? Who are they to try and take fathers and mothers from their children forever?

Somebody out to stand up for those citizens. And that somebody is you.

Tannakaobi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

People cry about the re-spec cost, as if loads of people are going to go around building up bounty's for no reason. I just can't see my banker being hit all that often if it is at all possible and it's what, about 40 seconds to get to the next bank...

People are stressing for no reason imo. Any idea when this is on the PTS server? I don't usually bother, but I'm eager to dismiss the panic. Or at least validate it.

Welka · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

And how would the NPC guards being the justice system change it for you? You'd still be seeing crime in the streets and guards chasing criminals. And since your main issue appears to be witnessing crime, I don't see how the system is any better or worse when it includes PvP elements.

The banks right now are a pain to go to with all the spell spam and mock battles going on in and near those places.

What level are you? Seriously. This doesn't happen anymore in lv 40+ zones and vet zones

I haven't seen it at any level. I strongly suspect that it's just something some players manufacture just so they can complain. Sure, it might happen once every new moon... But it's not like it's an epidemic or anything.

Well to be perfectly honest, I saw it a lot in low level areas. Players learn new tricks and try to be clever showing off a the bank, like any other players in the game could do the same lol

MercyKilling · July 2014

Other (please explain).

I'm just against it totally, as I strongly feel PvP has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.

To clarify, games that are designed with PvP as the main draw/feature do just fine. Look at any FPS or MOBA or RTS. One mechanic. One playstyle.

Now look at any MMORPG. PvE and PvP. Balance issues everywhere, in any game you choose to name. Ditto with community division. Any forum board in any game you choose to name has name calling on both sides. Two different types of personalities and game play styles and combat mechanics at war.

Balance one, you wonky out the other. I've not yet come across an MMORPG that has successfully separated PvP and PvE balance issues or community vitriol/bile spewing.

PvP has no business being in MMORPG's. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Tannakaobi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

MercyKilling wrote: »

I'm just against it totally, as I strongly feel PvP has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.

Can you name a really good AAA mmorpg that does not have PVP?

To clarify, games that are designed with PvP as the main draw/feature do just fine. Look at any FPS or MOBA or RTS. One mechanic. One playstyle.

Was ESO released with only PVP as 'end game' content? Was PVP used as a major pull in the sales pitch and advertisement?

Now look at any MMORPG. PvE and PvP. Balance issues everywhere, in any game you choose to name. Ditto with community division. Any forum board in any game you choose to name has name calling on both sides. Two different types of personalities and game play styles and combat mechanics at war.

Are the top 5 best selling MMO's built with PVP in mind? Does these so called balance issues, lessen them?

Balance one, you wonky out the other. I've not yet come across an MMORPG that has successfully separated PvP and PvE balance issues or community vitriol/bile spewing.

WoW? Think what you like about the game, but successful it most certainly is.

PvP has no business being in MMORPG's. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

It's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Maybe you should find an mmo that does not have PVP... wait.. no, you can't. It would seem the world disagree's with you.

Samadhi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

This poll was difficult for me to answer.

I wanted to choose the option that I want to be able to choose not to flag myself for PvP, because I want to exploit the system just like anyone else who would choose to abstain from the PvP aspect.

But I am thankful that the developers have designed the system so that criminals are flagged for PvP in order to prevent such issues.

The Justice System would be a major flop and massively exploited if I could toggle myself for PvE only.

Daethz · July 2014

Other (please explain).

It should have some sort of "Star" system, and should only flag you if you do something very bad, or a bunch of small bad things.. think of GTA.

Otherwise NPC's should take care of it.

But this does add a great opportunity for a real bounty system.

Welka · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Samadhi wrote: »

This poll was difficult for me to answer.

I wanted to choose the option that I want to be able to choose not to flag myself for PvP, because I want to exploit the system just like anyone else who would choose to abstain from the PvP aspect.

But I am thankful that the developers have designed the system so that criminals are flagged for PvP in order to prevent such issues.

The Justice System would be a major flop and massively exploited if I could toggle myself for PvE only.

Someone honest about the PVE only obsession on this JS. Cheers

I haven't seen any valid point to why people are objecting to being open for PVP when caught with a high bounty. Truth is exploit, and we cannot allow that. Doin so in a solo game is fine, we all use shortcuts. But when it is allowed in a MMO, things go nasty.

I appreciate your honesty

Samadhi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Welka wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

This poll was difficult for me to answer.

I wanted to choose the option that I want to be able to choose not to flag myself for PvP, because I want to exploit the system just like anyone else who would choose to abstain from the PvP aspect.

But I am thankful that the developers have designed the system so that criminals are flagged for PvP in order to prevent such issues.

The Justice System would be a major flop and massively exploited if I could toggle myself for PvE only.

Someone honest about the PVE only obsession on this JS. Cheers

I haven't seen any valid point to why people are objecting to being open for PVP when caught with a high bounty. Truth is exploit, and we cannot allow that. Doin so in a solo game is fine, we all use shortcuts. But when it is allowed in a MMO, things go nasty.

I appreciate your honesty

I play both sides of the game, both PvE and PvP.

I can guarantee if there were an option for PvE in the Justice System I would simply flag myself to PvE whenever I felt like farming mats or leveling any skill lines that may be provided experience by doing so.

Then when I felt like doing PvP I would simply go pay off my bounty, flag myself as a guard and start killing anyone foolish enough to try generating a bounty on PvP mode.

I'm not even ashamed to admit it; that's why I am glad the developers have made the system straight PvP on bounties in order to mitigate such exploitation. I don't imagine for even one second I would be alone in following such a process.

Welka · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Samadhi wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

This poll was difficult for me to answer.

I wanted to choose the option that I want to be able to choose not to flag myself for PvP, because I want to exploit the system just like anyone else who would choose to abstain from the PvP aspect.

But I am thankful that the developers have designed the system so that criminals are flagged for PvP in order to prevent such issues.

The Justice System would be a major flop and massively exploited if I could toggle myself for PvE only.

Someone honest about the PVE only obsession on this JS. Cheers

I haven't seen any valid point to why people are objecting to being open for PVP when caught with a high bounty. Truth is exploit, and we cannot allow that. Doin so in a solo game is fine, we all use shortcuts. But when it is allowed in a MMO, things go nasty.

I appreciate your honesty

I play both sides of the game, both PvE and PvP.

I can guarantee if there were an option for PvE in the Justice System I would simply flag myself to PvE whenever I felt like farming mats or leveling any skill lines that may be provided experience by doing so.

Then when I felt like doing PvP I would simply go pay off my bounty, flag myself as a guard and start killing anyone foolish enough to try generating a bounty on PvP mode.

I'm not even ashamed to admit it; that's why I am glad the developers have made the system straight PvP on bounties in order to mitigate such exploitation. I don't imagine for even one second I would be alone in following such a process.

That's exactly what us (pro PVP), are trying to outline from the beginning. People WILL outsmart NPC guards AI and power and stealing will no longer have consequences for people opting out PVP in JS.

I don't do PVP, I'm V4. I have nothing against it, I'm just waiting for later to get into it, once I'm finished with cadwell... But I don't mind having more interaction in the PVE zones. Maybe we'll see some cyrodiil addicts come back in the PVE zones and add some action to these somehow very fixed zones

Akula · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

MercyKilling wrote: »

I'm just against it totally, as I strongly feel PvP has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.

Now look at any MMORPG. PvE and PvP. Balance issues everywhere, in any game you choose to name. Ditto with community division. Any forum board in any game you choose to name has name calling on both sides. Two different types of personalities and game play styles and combat mechanics at war.

Balance one, you wonky out the other. I've not yet come across an MMORPG that has successfully separated PvP and PvE balance issues or community vitriol/bile spewing.

PvP has no business being in MMORPG's. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Snip]. Balance only comes from the PVP side unless there is something so out of whack it's beyond ridiculous. Who is going to complain that XX skill or XX class or XX combination is overpowered? The dungeon MOBS? The DPS archer in your group that is just fine and dandy that you can perma-stun the big boss so he doesnt get run over like a truck? Of course not....nobody will complain. The problem is that when there is a one sided battle (player vs mobs) everyone likes to steamroll everything. It feels good. However when it is brought to out in the light during PVP, the pve only crowd gets [Snip] that their "leet skills" have been undermined.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

SFBryan18 · July 2014

Other (please explain).

I don't care about things like this until I see the finished product.

MercyKilling · July 2014

Other (please explain).

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Can you name a really good AAA mmorpg that does not have PVP?

No, because they all have it. Regardless of whether or not they're AAA or not. This does not mean it belongs there. It just means they all have it.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Was ESO released with only PVP as 'end game' content? Was PVP used as a major pull in the sales pitch and advertisement?

No, it was not released with only PvP in mind. It's an MMORPG. Durr. Yes, PvP was used in the sales pitch and adverts, but again I refer you to "that does not mean it doesn't belong."...and I also posit that the major draw to the game IS NOT the PvP aspect of it.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Are the top 5 best selling MMO's built with PVP in mind? Does these so called balance issues, lessen them?

You just don't seem to get it. Just because they have it does not mean it SHOULD be there, or that it belongs. It's because of caving to people that WANT PvP that it's in MMORPG's. No, they were not built with PvP only in mind. Yes, these balance issues lessen them.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

WoW? Think what you like about the game, but successful it most certainly is.

Most certainly it is successful. However, this is not because of the PvP aspect of it despite what you're trying so desperately to prove.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

It's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Maybe you should find an mmo that does not have PVP... wait.. no, you can't. It would seem the world disagree's with you.

Which I'm quite used to. It's hard being the only one that's right, but someone's gotta do it.

I'm more than equal to the requirements.

BrassRazoo · July 2014

Other (please explain).

I don't like reading.

Anastasia · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Welka wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

For me it is simple wait and see once it is on the test server to see what exploits there will be that will allow griefers to flag players against their will. If it is a solid implementation that doesn't have these types of exploits then good on them

Welka wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe the developers would allow that to happen?

It was a Developer Quote that I am basing this on. It was a week or two ago, so perhaps they gained some sanity. Perhaps the instance that we create when talking to the banker or merchant can mitigate this.

However, until this travesty of a "feature" is tested out on the PTS, we won't know exactly how it will play out. I just don't see the justice system where the players are the Judge Jury and Executioner as something that adds to the experience of the game.

I stay out of Cyrodill so I don't have to deal with the PvP business. Now, the PvP business is coming to me in a place where I was told before I bought the game that it would not happen. Heck, if I wanted full on battles in a town, then I would not clear them out when first entering an area. I clear them out and now it's peaceful. This may all go away.

Its great for the PvP players to get more to kill, but it will probably drive me from the game. Even if the Bankers and Merchants are immune. We will see I guess.

But, I don't like this and probably won't like the in game impact. I would like it better if the guards were Justice system.

I believe I know which comment you refer to. It simply said that the JS was being tested in PTS and the way essentials NPC were reacting to attacks and how it affected the other players was being tested in PTS. Even if it did kick you out of the bank screen, the attacker will never last 10s inside a bank after attacking the clerk. Some idiots might want to try grieving the first few days but they will soon realise that they just make everybody inside the bank happy for slaughtering his face

Oh dear -- you apparently have missed their point. There are those who want PvE exclusive phasing for the Justice System. This is to allow them to participate and get rewards within the Justice System but to suffer zero consequences of such. They will be 'annoyed' if they are using a banker window for example and he is attacked and IF that closes his window with them, they will be inconvenienced for a certain period of time. They demand not to have ANY interruption of said bankers pc window. None.

And you miss a point too. Why should be rewarded from the JS if you don't want to be flagged for PVP when caught? Exploit, exploit, exploit...

Opt out and all you get from looting in town should be stale radish

I will get annoyed getting kicked out from the bank screen too often. People will try at first because the system just came out but the benefit of grieving vs the consequences of doing in a middle of a town will drive grievers tired of doing so

Heh, forgot to put a 'sarcasm on' phrase there - I completely agree with you and was being sardonic.

Anastasia · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

MercyKilling wrote: »

I'm just against it totally, as I strongly feel PvP has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.

To clarify, games that are designed with PvP as the main draw/feature do just fine. Look at any FPS or MOBA or RTS. One mechanic. One playstyle.

Now look at any MMORPG. PvE and PvP. Balance issues everywhere, in any game you choose to name. Ditto with community division. Any forum board in any game you choose to name has name calling on both sides. Two different types of personalities and game play styles and combat mechanics at war.

Balance one, you wonky out the other. I've not yet come across an MMORPG that has successfully separated PvP and PvE balance issues or community vitriol/bile spewing.

PvP has no business being in MMORPG's. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

What triple A MMO have you ever played that did NOT have PvP included in its content?????

Tannakaobi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

MercyKilling wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Can you name a really good AAA mmorpg that does not have PVP?

No, because they all have it. Regardless of whether or not they're AAA or not. This does not mean it belongs there. It just means they all have it.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Was ESO released with only PVP as 'end game' content? Was PVP used as a major pull in the sales pitch and advertisement?

No, but again I refer you to "that does not mean it doesn't belong."

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Are the top 5 best selling MMO's built with PVP in mind? Does these so called balance issues, lessen them?

You just don't seem to get it. Just because they have it does not mean it SHOULD be there, or that it belongs. It's because of caving to people that WANT PvP that it's in MMORPG's.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

WoW? Think what you like about the game, but successful it most certainly is.

Most certainly. However, this is not because of the PvP aspect of it, I'd wager.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

It's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Maybe you should find an mmo that does not have PVP... wait.. no, you can't. It would seem the world disagree's with you.

Which I'm quite used to. It's hard being the only one that's right, but someone's gotta do it.

I'm more than equal to the requirements.

I don't know what to say!

So even though all mmo's have PVP you think that they should not? Do you think that ball games should not have balls?

'No, but again I refer you to "that does not mean it doesn't belong.

I'm confused, ESO was released with only PVP end game content and PVP was used as a way to sell the game. It SHOULD be in it. Open world or not is another issue.

I don't get you, the early mmo's had PVP. If anything they removed PVP elements to suit people that don't like PVP. Many of the best MMO's are built around PVP. All PVE servers are is a copy of the game with the PVP disabled. That is why you get some odd elements such as Town guards being killable on PVE realms.

I think the argument that players should not be forced into PVP has merit. The argument that PVP should not be in MMORPG's at all makes as much sense as Dungeons without mobs.

Samadhi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I feel PvP is a vital part of MMORPGs. Any game that includes player interaction with each other necessitates a method of those players coming into direct confrontation with one another.

I've fought against other players since even the days of D&D before RPGs hit the "MMO" category. Nothing was more fun than sidelining the DMs story for some hearty dueling against another group member. The DM always loved hosting such sessions as well.

Cously · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

I think I had a stroke. Where everyone get the information about this new system, I'm searching the forums but can't find any official words!

Akula · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Joolio wrote: »

I think I had a stroke. Where everyone get the information about this new system, I'm searching the forums but can't find any official words!

I got my info from the video presentation of all the new stuff they were working on. I dont know if there is anything else.

Cously · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Akula wrote: »

Joolio wrote: »

I think I had a stroke. Where everyone get the information about this new system, I'm searching the forums but can't find any official words!

I got my info from the video presentation of all the new stuff they were working on. I dont know if there is anything else.

Ahh the Quakecon vid. Only now I'll watch. Thanks for the heads up!

Loco_Mofo · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

It's fine the way ZoS are planning to implement it.

If you don't want to be hunted down by other players, then don't do the crime it's that simple.

Tannakaobi · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Joolio wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

Joolio wrote: »

I think I had a stroke. Where everyone get the information about this new system, I'm searching the forums but can't find any official words!

I got my info from the video presentation of all the new stuff they were working on. I dont know if there is anything else.

Ahh the Quakecon vid. Only now I'll watch. Thanks for the heads up!

Probably one of the better press released advertisements.

A stand out thing for me was the spellcrafting thingy...keep your eye out for that. It's pretty long. Also there is to be glass Armor. I never doubted, but good to know.

They all looked a bit unhappy/tired though, been hard at work maybe..

Loco_Mofo · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

MercyKilling wrote: »

I'm just against it totally, as I strongly feel PvP has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.

What am I reading... I don't even...

Welka · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

Loco_Mofo wrote: »

If you don't want to be hunted down by other players, then don't do the crime it's that simple.

You're wrong dude! You should have worded it like this: "If you don't want to be hunted down by other players, then don't get caught committing the crime, it's that simple."

IcyDeadPeople · July 2014

I like the justice system as currently described by the developers.

The only drawback I can think of is that it might be so much fun, people might end up playing less in Cyrodiil for a while until the novelty of hunting down your own faction members wears off.