Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.

Tannakaobi

Haewk wrote: »

This is rubbish. You cannot attack other players in TES games BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OTHER PLAYERS. How can you attack what is not there?

Players are characters, NPC's are characters! Enough said...

I am talking about the frustration of PvE balance disrupted by PvP balancing, how does that have no foundation? Just go read the forums of any game with both. And go and look at the list of failed games that had PvP and PvE, hardly a recipe for success.

It's just a reason PVE players use as an excuse against PVP. It hold no foundation because ALL the 'good' mmo's have PVP!

You have your PvP zone and I don't want to take it away. You are getting a PvP city, enjoy. I think the justice system is stupid. I thought it was stupid in TES games. I don't understand how it adds entertainment. I don't see how it will not impact PvE players when it will be going on around us.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it is what it is, we don't know what that is and basically my whole point is wait and see. By the way the PvP city, you are talking about will be mainly PVE!

Why are you so eager to bring your PvP into the PvE zones? Why? Explain to me how you will use the Justice System to make it fun. Will you be a guard? Will you get a really high bounty? What will be the game play? What is the vision?

Without knowing more I can't answer these questions, but I will tell you what I like about open world PVP. It is the realism and the not knowing. The thrill of Killing someone, the feeling of failure when I get killed. I would be fine if they had realms, I totally understand that not everyone enjoys PVP and that's fine. I think the justice system is a good way for them to put something into ESO that is an option. I don't think it will have much effect on the thieves guild and dark brotherhood. Like I said, only time will tell.

Halorin

Haewk,

I'm glad you concede that there is no precedent with multiplayer in the ES franchise, so you should also agree that the franchise's history has no real value in unchartered waters. There's never been a set policy on what players can or can't do before.

Let's say TESO came out with the justice system in place that had PVP a part of it. Would you take the same stance? Or would you just accept that was part of this game's homage to freedom of play?

JKorr

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Why do PVE players play MMO's? By and large mmo's are cack. Graphics are poor, gameplay is poor. Reaction timings are poor. When I say poor, I mean in direct comparison to games that are not mmo's. If you are not going to hack chunks out of each other then what is the point?

I understand raids, and dungeons, but in ESO that's like, what? 5% of the game...

Yet it's the PVE players that get in a huff about every single little thing, even things that have been categorically denied.

Say no to arena's! We don't want arena's because even though we wouldn't play them we don't want them.
Say no to battlegrounds because even though we wouldn't get involved we don't want them.
Say no to open world PVP, even if it's optional because even though we wouldn't bother we don't want them.

When was the last time you heard a PVP player say, 'say no to dungeons or raids we don't want them'?
If you even make a little sound about ESO being very quest orientated you get a barrage of PVE players stating things like, it's TES, it's all about quests. Or if you don't like it move on...

The funny thing is, by and large it's the PVE players that wanted Skyrim Online. Which is funny because in Skyrim you can literally attack anyone. Why would that change if it was online. It would be open world PVP all the way!

You reap what you sow and had all the PVE players not moaned and moaned about every form of PVP such as arena's, battlegrounds, open world then your precious justice system may not be PVP.

Although I highly doubt it. I mean it's obvious really, of course the justice system was going to be PVP it's an Elder Scrolls game. Although at the moment it's nothing like any other Tes game. The justice system is a big step towards making it more like one but what do you get? That's right, PVE players moaning about it. They don't even know what it is yet, but they still moan about it.

Sheesh!

Strangely enough, if I'm running through Skyrim, only the enemy npcs will attack me. I can stop in Shor's Stone, or Rorikstead and visit the tavern and not worry about random player X coming in and killing the innkeeper or attacking my character. I can explore dungeons and ruins and worry only about the enemy npcs trying to kill me, and not the bored uber level player who decides running through and killing anything and everything is "FUN". And, by the way, while you could attack anyone, you couldn't kill everyone. And the npc guards would go after you, with the choices of paying your fine, serving your jail sentence, or attempting to kill all the guards and get away. Oh, if you were famous enough, or really well liked, the guards will offer to pay your fine for you.

I'm trying to compare that to "Skyrim Online" to use your term, where you think Skyrim was all pvp all the time, and I can't, because it wasn't.

I'm still not seeing the open pvp that the all pvp all the time everywhere people keep claiming. You're right; we don't know exactly how it works. All we have is a statement that they are NOT going to have open world pvp. Going by the statement posted here, it sounds a lot more like Skyrim that ffa owpvp.

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

At QuakeCon, Paul Sage discussed the work being done on the in-development justice system, including the possibility of hunting down players who have a bounty. Only players who have chosen to participate in the activity of thievery will have a bounty on them, and be attackable, and only if you are a guard.

While certain activities may open you up to PvP outside of Cyrodiil, we are not considering world PvP.

I cheerfully butchered every Thalmor I came across in Skyrim. Never got arrested for it. Got a few fines for assaults, but those were either a few gold or the guards paid it for me. I think the people who keep saying TEH JUSTICE SYSTEM ITS PVP would be really, really, *really* bored and disappointed if my experience with the Skyrim "pvp justice system" is how its gonna work in ESO.

The pvp players are moaning equally loudly, with just as little information.

nerevarine1138

Halorin wrote: »

Haewk,

I'm glad you concede that there is no precedent with multiplayer in the ES franchise, so you should also agree that the franchise's history has no real value in unchartered waters. There's never been a set policy on what players can or can't do before.

Let's say TESO came out with the justice system in place that had PVP a part of it. Would you take the same stance? Or would you just accept that was part of this game's homage to freedom of play?

Well, let's not just say that. That's exactly what's happening.

When it comes down to it, they've been absolutely clear that players would be part of both sides of the justice system since day one. It's a perfect way to translate the dynamics of the single-player series to the MMO.

Tannakaobi

JKorr wrote: »

Strangely enough, if I'm running through Skyrim, only the enemy npcs will attack me. I can stop in Shor's Stone, or Rorikstead and visit the tavern and not worry about random player X coming in and killing the innkeeper or attacking my character. I can explore dungeons and ruins and worry only about the enemy npcs trying to kill me

But then, while running through these dungeons you may have other players coming in and killing the boss with/for you. It's an mmo, some things are different. Some you will like other you will not.

Halorin

In that case, nerevarine1138, people have NO room to complain or gripe.

Haewk

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

This is rubbish. You cannot attack other players in TES games BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OTHER PLAYERS. How can you attack what is not there?

Players are characters, NPC's are characters! Enough said...

And players are not NPCs. Semantics aside, arguing that a game franchise that never had any PvP at all whatsoever translates into a World PvP game when taken to the multi-player level is laughable. People did not play TES to PvP, why do we need it now we have a MMO?

I am talking about the frustration of PvE balance disrupted by PvP balancing, how does that have no foundation? Just go read the forums of any game with both. And go and look at the list of failed games that had PvP and PvE, hardly a recipe for success.

It's just a reason PVE players use as an excuse against PVP. It hold no foundation because ALL the 'good' mmo's have PVP!

You agree it causes frustration then?

You have your PvP zone and I don't want to take it away. You are getting a PvP city, enjoy. I think the justice system is stupid. I thought it was stupid in TES games. I don't understand how it adds entertainment. I don't see how it will not impact PvE players when it will be going on around us.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it is what it is, we don't know what that is and basically my whole point is wait and see. By the way the PvP city, you are talking about will be mainly PVE!

We know what they have released and apparently they think we as players want this. I don't. I pay the same money as you do and my opinion is just as valid as yours. And this is my way of telling them I don't want it.

Why are you so eager to bring your PvP into the PvE zones? Why? Explain to me how you will use the Justice System to make it fun. Will you be a guard? Will you get a really high bounty? What will be the game play? What is the vision?

Without knowing more I can't answer these questions, but I will tell you what I like about open world PVP. It is the realism and the not knowing. The thrill of Killing someone, the feeling of failure when I get killed. I would be fine if they had realms, I totally understand that not everyone enjoys PVP and that's fine. I think the justice system is a good way for them to put something into ESO that is an option. I don't think it will have much effect on the thieves guild and dark brotherhood. Like I said, only time will tell.

I do not share your optimism.

Tannakaobi

Haewk wrote: »

And players are not NPCs. Semantics aside, arguing that a game franchise that never had any PvP at all whatsoever translates into a World PvP game when taken to the multi-player level is laughable. People did not play TES to PvP, why do we need it now we have a MMO?

TES is an open world rpg where you can do as you please. To think that an online Tes game will not have PVP is laughable. Yes, they need to add limitations, but the only reason is because of griefers, not because people don't want it.

You agree it causes frustration then?

I agree that people get frustrated with PVP, they just point the finger in the wrong direction.

We know what they have released and apparently they think we as players want this. I don't. I pay the same money as you do and my opinion is just as valid as yours. And this is my way of telling them I don't want it.

Many players DO want this. Some don't including you it would seem. But here is the thing, you have your PVE game. What is your problem with other people having what they want. When you also consider it is an OPTIONAL function it makes you out to be the first person to stand up at a party take your piece of cake, eat it and then stamp on the rest of the cake so no one else can have any.

Welid

I would say the number of hard-core PVE players outnumbers those who enjoy PVP centric activities only. Yes, majority of players do both but I guarantee that many more solo players who are the majority like to be given the option and do not like to be forced into PVP. There is nothing more annoying than having your gaming time distracted by other players. Some may argue then do not get involved in criminal activities which the response would be they need the resources to be effective in their ability to level in PVE or experience crafting. As long as players are given options and not forced it may work. The main thing Devs need to be concerned about is, will there be safe guards to avoid players impacting other players gaming experience by force.

Another thing, dividing PVP activities in different zones is not a good idea. All PVP activities should be focused in Cyrodil, so if you fancy fighting against unscripted NPC's then you know Cyrodil is the place. This way the player base will remain at a healthy population for this zone to allow the enjoyment of PVP battles to thrive. Devs should focus on introducing PVP contents in a zone where the individual makes a conscious choice to be alert against other players. Sometimes we just want to PVE and other times we may want to PVP. I very much agree with those who want to keep PVE zones free from PVP. My experience in other MMO games lead me to hold this opinion where I have seen it fail.

Off-topic : I am more excited about the prospect of crafting spells. This option is a game changer for me, the ability to be able to craft variety of different spells will throw any class balance out of the window.

TehMagnus

yarnevk wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Who said anything about the banker moving? And I never offered a quote. I said that ZO has been extremely clear on essential NPCs not being killable, ergo not being something that can interfere with players who don't want to participate in the justice system.
.

You are the one ignoring that bankers will be attackable, and their cowering movement will break the window.

Just as you're ignoring that what you describe is the reason it's being tested in PTS: so that it doesn't grieve players.

It's easy to take one comment from ZOS official without looking at the next one it seems.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

As for PVE players not wanting to PVP, as it has been said before, there is no difference having a player or an NPC guard .

There are of course several fundamental differences, but that would invalidate your agenda so you won't acknowledge them even if I mentioned them.

Sage's reasoning isn't 'wise' it's specious. It's a superficially attractive way for ZOS to pander to the rabid open-world PVPers but the reality will show it for what it is.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Tannakaobi wrote: »

ALL the 'good' mmo's have PVP!.

To rabid lolopenworldpvp lovers like you seem to be then I expect they do have to allow PVPers to be able to grief others to rank as 'good'.

TehMagnus

Haewk wrote: »

TES was single player and therefore PvE, why do you assume that would change? Your logic is faulty.

Why would we assume that would change? Because if it wasn't intended to change, they would have released an other solo game and not a "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game"?

I think a lot of people complaining here actually never wanted an MMO but just the next Skyrim and thus want a game with an entirely separate Solo game.

I'm sorry, but this is not going to happen since the reason thousands of people have been asking for an MMO since Morrowind & Oblivion was to have player interaction aka: Not a solo game.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

TES was single player and therefore PvE, why do you assume that would change? Your logic is faulty.

Why would we assume that would change? Because if it wasn't intended to change, they would have released an other solo game and not a "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game"?

I think a lot of people complaining here actually never wanted an MMO but just the next Skyrim and thus want a game with an entirely separate Solo game.

I'm sorry, but this is not going to happen since the reason thousands of people have been asking for an MMO since Morrowind & Oblivion was to have player interaction aka: Not a solo game.

"Player interaction" isn't synonymous with PVP .. indeed, the entire basis for the PVP in this game is artificial 'lore' wise, I was really saddened when I first read ZOS were going to pander to the PVP brigade, the endless skill nerfing that's happened since day 1 was entirely predictable when PVP was part of it.

It's entirely unsurprising the most vocal advocates of this are the rabid PVPers wanting their lolopenworldPVP any way they can get it.

TehMagnus

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

As for PVE players not wanting to PVP, as it has been said before, there is no difference having a player or an NPC guard .

There are of course several fundamental differences, but that would invalidate your agenda so you won't acknowledge them even if I mentioned them.

Sage's reasoning isn't 'wise' it's specious. It's a superficially attractive way for ZOS to pander to the rabid open-world PVPers but the reality will show it for what it is.

An awesome idea that will make the game awesome for TES fans that have been waiting for this game for ages and will probably stay subbed till the game dies?

Yup

Oh and no, it's exactly the same thing because at the end of the day, the result is you will be running for your life & probably end up dead. Wether it's an NPC or a PC guard that does the job, the result is still the same.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

As for PVE players not wanting to PVP, as it has been said before, there is no difference having a player or an NPC guard .

There are of course several fundamental differences, but that would invalidate your agenda so you won't acknowledge them even if I mentioned them.

Sage's reasoning isn't 'wise' it's specious. It's a superficially attractive way for ZOS to pander to the rabid open-world PVPers but the reality will show it for what it is.

An awesome idea that will make the game awesome for TES fans that have been waiting for this game for ages and will probably stay subbed till the game dies?

I suspect only a small minority of them ... and I agree there was likely a huge number of such fans ... thought for a moment lolopenworldPVP would be part of it.

TehMagnus

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

As for PVE players not wanting to PVP, as it has been said before, there is no difference having a player or an NPC guard .

There are of course several fundamental differences, but that would invalidate your agenda so you won't acknowledge them even if I mentioned them.

Sage's reasoning isn't 'wise' it's specious. It's a superficially attractive way for ZOS to pander to the rabid open-world PVPers but the reality will show it for what it is.

An awesome idea that will make the game awesome for TES fans that have been waiting for this game for ages and will probably stay subbed till the game dies?

I suspect only a small minority of them ... and I agree there was likely a huge number of such fans ... thought for a moment lolopenworldPVP would be part of it.

You suspect wrong. Most people don't care if it's one way or the other and people who don't care are like people who don't vote on election or vote blank: they're on the side of the winners, and atm, justice system with PVP is the winner since it's what ZOS will implement. . (and once again isn't even the subject of this topic to begin with).

Semfim

There is nothing worst than a griefer... I play PvP every other day and although I'm not very good at it I enjoy it because I know what I'm up for. Someone ganking me while I'm on the crafting station or RP'ing? NO THANK YOU! (unless I did some crimes, because then I've been asking for it). SO to me it seems the solution ZOS has come about with is perfect and anyone wanting free world pvp are in the wrong game, go play Dayz if thats your thing!

TehMagnus

Semfim wrote: »

There is nothing worst than a griefer... I play PvP every other day and although I'm not very good at it I enjoy it because I know what I'm up for. Someone ganking me while I'm on the crafting station or RP'ing? NO THANK YOU! (unless I did some crimes, because then I've been asking for it). SO to me it seems the solution ZOS has come about with is perfect and anyone wanting free world pvp are in the wrong game, go play Dayz if thats your thing!

As said in OP, attacking you in crafting station has never been the idea of implementing PVP in some PVE areas. In most games if not all with such systems, towns are considered safe places and you can't fight in them.

As for anyone wanting free world pvp being in the wrong game: Seing how in other TES games you could attack any character, I wouldn't go as far as to say it's the wrong game .

DieAlteHexe

Daethz wrote: »

I would only like pvp forcefully thrown into pvp if the consiquences far outweighed the benefits.
Such as troll kill people but lose 500k gold in the process, or have extreme bounties put on you every time you kill someone, idk.

No thanks. I don't wish to become someone (a rich someone in this case) else's "content".

Opt in, with exploiting carefully watched for and I'm fine with Justice system. I'm a bit leery though given how fast those who give PvP a bad name have munged things up for folks in the past.

DieAlteHexe

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

Having to play ESO with the PvP types that post in these forums around me would greatly diminish my enjoyment of the game. I'm afraid that it will make wandering around a town as peacefully interesting as a crowded bank. The same skeevers will be trying to bother other players outside as they do now inside. I think that it has the potential of completely breaking the game for many.

How badly will it impact my enjoyment? I don't think that any of us can say yet. It concerns me enough that I switched my sub renewal in November from six months to monthly. Time will tell.

It's stuff like that that makes us call you carebears and hope for true world pvp so we can pk you at will.

You get all mad when you get insulted but drop insults yourself like it's just fact.

You are not the center of the universe.

Nor are PvPers, and I would like to ask, politely, that you refrain from using terms like "carebear", well, at least if you want to have a civil conversation. That you want to be able to clobber anyone at will is fine in the games that support that. And there are quite a few. I will never understand why dyed-in-the-wool PvPers buy a game, subscribe *knowing* the PvP (or lack thereof) and then start agitating for PvP. Why not just play a game that is written for PvP/RvR from the ground up? I don't go over to Eve or others of that ilk and start agitating for PvE to become the main focus.

Just boggles my mind.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

Having to play ESO with the PvP types that post in these forums around me would greatly diminish my enjoyment of the game. I'm afraid that it will make wandering around a town as peacefully interesting as a crowded bank. The same skeevers will be trying to bother other players outside as they do now inside. I think that it has the potential of completely breaking the game for many.

How badly will it impact my enjoyment? I don't think that any of us can say yet. It concerns me enough that I switched my sub renewal in November from six months to monthly. Time will tell.

It's stuff like that that makes us call you carebears and hope for true world pvp so we can pk you at will.

You get all mad when you get insulted but drop insults yourself like it's just fact.

You are not the center of the universe.

Nor are PvPers, and I would like to ask, politely, that you refrain from using terms like "carebear", well, at least if you want to have a civil conversation. That you want to be able to clobber anyone at will is fine in the games that support that. And there are quite a few. I will never understand why dyed-in-the-wool PvPers buy a game, subscribe *knowing* the PvP (or lack thereof) and then start agitating for PvP. Why not just play a game that is written for PvP/RvR from the ground up? I don't go over to Eve or others of that ilk and start agitating for PvE to become the main focus.

Just boggles my mind.

you could say the same about pve'rs, on launch endgame for this was pvp. devs just caved and added some pve endgame.

opt in world pvp is coming so it seems like pvp is a staple.

It's really hard to refrain from the carebear insults when people call you a griefer and act like you are some subhuman monster for daring to want to fight other players.

DieAlteHexe

babylon wrote: »

Halorin wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

But what about people who want to participate in a justice system without it involving interaction with other (hostile) players (pvp).

Then those people, by the definition of the justice system posed by the developers, do not want to participate in the justice system.

In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.

Not sure that's correct. There are (usually) hard-core PvPers (decent folk), griefers (insert pet epithet), casual PvPers, those who only RvR and strict PvEers. I don't have a problem with a company adding content for one in an update so long as the love gets spread about equally in the long run.

I'm not anti-PvP. I'm not interested in PvP much (depending upon how RvR works I can get into that) at all. But I have no problem with content being made available for ALL types of players. Hell, make an area where griefers can bash the living daylights out of each other ('course that really won't satisfy that sort, they only get their kicks when they force others to be their victims).

DieAlteHexe

As the thread has devolved to "fighting one's corner", I'll say this and leave it at that:

So long as I can totally ignore PvP, if I so choose and development for various forms of PvP doesn't waylay other content development, fine by me. The whinging about balance doesn't look to be that likely here but, well, it'll happen but can easily be ignored.

DieAlteHexe

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

Having to play ESO with the PvP types that post in these forums around me would greatly diminish my enjoyment of the game. I'm afraid that it will make wandering around a town as peacefully interesting as a crowded bank. The same skeevers will be trying to bother other players outside as they do now inside. I think that it has the potential of completely breaking the game for many.

How badly will it impact my enjoyment? I don't think that any of us can say yet. It concerns me enough that I switched my sub renewal in November from six months to monthly. Time will tell.

It's stuff like that that makes us call you carebears and hope for true world pvp so we can pk you at will.

You get all mad when you get insulted but drop insults yourself like it's just fact.

You are not the center of the universe.

Nor are PvPers, and I would like to ask, politely, that you refrain from using terms like "carebear", well, at least if you want to have a civil conversation. That you want to be able to clobber anyone at will is fine in the games that support that. And there are quite a few. I will never understand why dyed-in-the-wool PvPers buy a game, subscribe *knowing* the PvP (or lack thereof) and then start agitating for PvP. Why not just play a game that is written for PvP/RvR from the ground up? I don't go over to Eve or others of that ilk and start agitating for PvE to become the main focus.

Just boggles my mind.

you could say the same about pve'rs, on launch endgame for this was pvp. devs just caved and added some pve endgame.

opt in world pvp is coming so it seems like pvp is a staple.

It's really hard to refrain from the carebear insults when people call you a griefer and act like you are some subhuman monster for daring to want to fight other players.

I would disagree with that. I think end-game content was added because, as is usual, the devs got caught flat-footed by just how fast some people can consume content.

As for the rest, rise above it, don't wallow. All you're doing is perpetuating a stereotype applied to PvPers which isn't necessarily a fair one. Don't do the "but Moooommmmm, he started it.".

Both sides need to learn to converse/debate without name calling. I will say there are actually "griefers" who go out of their way to upset other players with their behaviour. "Carebears'" behaviour isn't upsetting to anyone, well, aside from "griefers" who a pitching a wobbly because "carebears" won't happily be fodder.

cuz_mike200

The Justice System is made for killing NPCs. The open world PvP Alliance War in Cyrodiil is made for killing players. PvP in PvE doesn't work, especially if it means killing fellow alliance veterans. If this does get added there will need to be some sort of flagging system to be flagged as kill-able or not. That is my opinion and I have nothing against all yours.

leandro.800ub17_ESO

Don't steal = don't get killed

Zubba

Making pvp part of the justice system sounds like "fresh air" to me.

TehMagnus

cuz_mike200 wrote: »

The Justice System is made for killing NPCs. The open world PvP Alliance War in Cyrodiil is made for killing players. PvP in PvE doesn't work, especially if it means killing fellow alliance veterans. If this does get added there will need to be some sort of flagging system to be flagged as kill-able or not. That is my opinion and I have nothing against all yours.

Nope, Justice system is for introducing consequences to NPCs killing which involves other players enforcing the consequences so that you cannot avoid those consequences by exploiting game mechanics. You can introduce NPCs Killing without a Justice System. You can't introduce a justice system without introducing stealing and NPC killing.

Koensol

Oh dear.. the dead horse has risen once again!! I remember these discussions from the prelauch ESO forum on bethsoft. Lots of threads, lots of bans

This is just one of those things people will never agree on. But in a social/casual game such as ESO I don't see this happening.