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Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
By my definition, stealing from and killing NPCs is opting in to PVP, based on what's been revealed so far. But they have not confirmed or denied how quickly you'd be subjected to PVP, so a lot of your position is based on unconfirmed assumptions.
Doesn't matter when it happens, the issue is that it involves pvp at all.3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
By my definition, stealing from and killing NPCs is opting in to PVP, based on what's been revealed so far. But they have not confirmed or denied how quickly you'd be subjected to PVP, so a lot of your position is based on unconfirmed assumptions.
Doesn't matter when it happens, the issue is that it involves pvp at all.
This is not an issue, it's a new functionality with PVP included, just like Cyrodill's Imperial City. Guess devs aren't making extra content exclusively for PVE players and that makes people mad
. 3 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?----
Murray?1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.3 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.----
Murray?1 -
Halorin✭✭✭
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
By my definition, stealing from and killing NPCs is opting in to PVP, based on what's been revealed so far. But they have not confirmed or denied how quickly you'd be subjected to PVP, so a lot of your position is based on unconfirmed assumptions.
Doesn't matter when it happens, the issue is that it involves pvp at all.
Until there's a statement saying otherwise, the chance for PVP is just something you'll have to deal with and account for. Sorry.
Just like I doubt they would make a PVE-only version of Cyrodiil for people who want to go there and how I doubt they would make a completely open PVP version of the rest of the world, you're going to have to accept that there will be some overlap.
They've made a pretty strong statement to that fact with the inclusion of the justice system and the Imperial City, which will have both PVP and PVE elements.
Good luck on your crusade to have the game mold to your specifications. Sometimes we're not going to get our way.2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can you show me where a ZOS employee has stated they are no longer making important NPCs attackable? Last solid info shows them stating they are attackable and reactive.Edited by babylon on July 29, 2014 12:39AM3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
That would never work. Players would gank up on NPCs and just murder them as they respawn while farming. Then they would drop loot together @ fence or @ bank, then get naked (no repair costs) & killed together to lower bounty.Edited by TehMagnus on July 29, 2014 12:39AM2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
As Sage mentioned before: players will always find a way to exploit NPC behavior. There's no way around it. In order for a justice system to have actual consequences, it needs to be enforced by players. And frankly, this is what everyone has been hoping for since they announced an MMO. We already have a single-player version of the justice system. This game will offer a multiplayer one.----
Murray?5 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If we got snared we'd get caught almost all the time. So this is very simple, the only problem being your imagination (or lack of).nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
2 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If we got snared we'd get caught almost all the time. So this is very simple, the only problem being your imagination (or lack of).nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
Sure, because there are no spells in the game that remove all debuffs and no potions to make you run faster.
2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
If we got snared we'd get caught almost all the time. So this is very simple, the only problem being your imagination (or lack of).nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
CC breaks, CC breaks and CC breaks. Oh, and committing crimes before immediately LoS-ing the guard, or a thousand other ways of exploiting predictable NPC behavior. The fact is that, just like the single-player games, once players figure out the basic mechanics of the NPC guards, they will not get caught if they don't want to be caught.----
Murray?3 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Just make it unbreakable, which can't be done to player CC but can be done to NPC attacks.nerevarine1138 wrote: »
If we got snared we'd get caught almost all the time. So this is very simple, the only problem being your imagination (or lack of).nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
CC breaks
2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Just make it unbreakable, which can't be done to player CC but can be done to NPC attacks.nerevarine1138 wrote: »
If we got snared we'd get caught almost all the time. So this is very simple, the only problem being your imagination (or lack of).nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
CC breaks
And then wait for players to complain about guards having an unbreakable snare. Which means that you have no fighting chance.
Again, you're simply coming up with ways to avoid actually having a balanced system so that you don't have to interact with other players in an MMO. That's not the system you're getting, so I guess you'll have to learn to live with it.----
Murray?4 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Just make it unbreakable, which can't be done to player CC but can be done to NPC attacks.nerevarine1138 wrote: »
If we got snared we'd get caught almost all the time. So this is very simple, the only problem being your imagination (or lack of).nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
CC breaks
snip.
Then nothing, a bounty with crime done in front of guard means capture and that's that.3 -
grimjim398✭✭✭.nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
The developers have already said that they know players would exploit a PVE only Justice System to avoid consequences.
No matter what the devs choose they will get yelled at, which leaves them free to choose to do what they think best. They've already made it pretty clear what they think best.
There are lots of ways to avoid accidentally tumbling into the system or getting flagged by accident into PvP. Opt-in PVE only Justice System is only one option. There could be a safety button that tells the game client to warn you when you are about to take an action that could result in your being flagged.
In the same way the famous problem with the banker moving could be solved pretty easily, I expect.
None of these are good reasons to make a PVE-only justice system, especially when everybody knows PvE players would exploit it.Edited by grimjim398 on July 29, 2014 12:57AM3 -
Haewk✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
As Sage mentioned before: players will always find a way to exploit NPC behavior. There's no way around it. In order for a justice system to have actual consequences, it needs to be enforced by players. And frankly, this is what everyone has been hoping for since they announced an MMO. We already have a single-player version of the justice system. This game will offer a multiplayer one.
So this is what everyone has been hoping for, is it? Did you have to sacrifice 12 virgins to learn this truth? Do you have some all knowing crystal ball?2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
As Sage mentioned before: players will always find a way to exploit NPC behavior. There's no way around it. In order for a justice system to have actual consequences, it needs to be enforced by players. And frankly, this is what everyone has been hoping for since they announced an MMO. We already have a single-player version of the justice system. This game will offer a multiplayer one.
So this is what everyone has been hoping for, is it? Did you have to sacrifice 12 virgins to learn this truth? Do you have some all knowing crystal ball?
No, I've just been playing the Elder Scrolls series for 12 years. Being part of that community has given me a pretty good feel for what Elder Scrolls players who wanted to see an attempt at an MMO wanted from the experience.
See, those of us who have actually played the single-player series still play those games. We don't need to duplicate that experience in an MMO, because we're looking for a multiplayer experience. If I want single-player fun, I've already poured thousands of hours of my life in to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. I can pour a few more in.Edited by nerevarine1138 on July 29, 2014 1:02AM----
Murray?3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
As Sage mentioned before: players will always find a way to exploit NPC behavior. There's no way around it. In order for a justice system to have actual consequences, it needs to be enforced by players. And frankly, this is what everyone has been hoping for since they announced an MMO. We already have a single-player version of the justice system. This game will offer a multiplayer one.
So this is what everyone has been hoping for, is it? Did you have to sacrifice 12 virgins to learn this truth? Do you have some all knowing crystal ball?
Most players that are old eso fans and have been waiting for an MMO for a decade prolly do.Edited by TehMagnus on July 29, 2014 1:05AM1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I wonder if there will be an option to pay a cheaper bounty once the thieves guild and dark brotherhood are implemented.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
As Sage mentioned before: players will always find a way to exploit NPC behavior. There's no way around it. In order for a justice system to have actual consequences, it needs to be enforced by players. And frankly, this is what everyone has been hoping for since they announced an MMO. We already have a single-player version of the justice system. This game will offer a multiplayer one.
So this is what everyone has been hoping for, is it? Did you have to sacrifice 12 virgins to learn this truth? Do you have some all knowing crystal ball?
No, I've just been playing the Elder Scrolls series for 12 years. Being part of that community has given me a pretty good feel for what Elder Scrolls players who wanted to see an attempt at an MMO wanted from the experience.
See, those of us who have actually played the single-player series still play those games. We don't need to duplicate that experience in an MMO, because we're looking for a multiplayer experience. If I want single-player fun, I've already poured thousands of hours of my life in to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. I can pour a few more in.
You're confusing multiplayer with competitive play aka pvp. If I want to have multiplayer in the justice system, I'll just group up with friends and hunt some NPCs on one side or the other, which is cooperative play and still multiplayer. OMG see what happened just then? I just explained how multiplayer can be cooperative as opposed to pvp.
Also you have no idea what "Elder Scrolls players want".Edited by babylon on July 29, 2014 1:32AM4 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »I wonder if there will be an option to pay a cheaper bounty once the thieves guild and dark brotherhood are implemented.
I am almost positive that you will be able to pay a lesser fee to have your bounty go away if you can make it to a guild safehouse. Otherwise, what would be the point of escaping the guards?----
Murray?2 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »I wonder if there will be an option to pay a cheaper bounty once the thieves guild and dark brotherhood are implemented.
I am almost positive that you will be able to pay a lesser fee to have your bounty go away if you can make it to a guild safehouse. Otherwise, what would be the point of escaping the guards?
Well obviously you'd have to make it to the safehouse.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭It is really funny , because people talk like PvP players dont exploit the crap out of cyrodiil all the time.
So emp trading anyone :P?"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
xChewtoyx✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Can't happen.
As Sage mentioned before: players will always find a way to exploit NPC behavior. There's no way around it. In order for a justice system to have actual consequences, it needs to be enforced by players. And frankly, this is what everyone has been hoping for since they announced an MMO. We already have a single-player version of the justice system. This game will offer a multiplayer one.
My bold and I totally agree with that statement but
I don't understand how you can say on the one hand that in a PVE system players will always find a way to exploit but once you introduce PVP all of the sudden its magically foolproof.
There needs to be some serious safeguards to keep people from exploiting whatever method they use and I expect that is part of the reason its taken so long to bring this about.
0 -
Haewk✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »
In short, this justice system and all the resources going into its development is being wasted on pvp-only players, which are the minority in any game.
Of course not since the percentage of the players that get caught will probably be a minority
See you're adding in pve players not getting caught as players on the team of "we love pvp consequences in the justice system" when they're actually on the "we want pve consequences only in the justice system" team.
It would be better to just roll this out as pve consequences with opt-in pvp for those that actually want to have pvp all over town in the open world.
Opt-in pvp is NOT "do not get caught" - opt-in pvp would have to be a toggle, where you can choose whether or not to involve other hostile players in your game.
There will never be Opt-in PVP in the justice system.
Listen to Paul Sage's wise words, he began by saying this:
"If guards are only NPCs, I know you guys will find a way to abuse & exploit the system so we are puting in players in the guard faction"..
Oh so it's better that people get pvp forced on them rather than they get to run away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls. I see where this game is heading.
It's not forced, they choose to try to get away with 9 gold pieces worth of sweet rolls.
It IS forced - they wanted to interact only with NPCs not other players.
It isn't forced snip
The areas was up till now were separate and so if I didn't want to do pvp I wasn't in Cyrodiil. If I wanted to pvp I would go to Cyrodiil. Now they're making it so if I want to do some pve content that has always been fun for me (killing and stealing) I am quite possibly forced to do pvp as well. So yes it is forced pvp, and your denial isn't a compelling argument at all, despite what you imagine.
It's not forced PVP
It isn't opt-in pvp, because people want to steal and kill NPCs without doing any pvp. So the choice is either kill and steal and have pvp forced on them, or continue the pve game but without the crime content which they really wanted to enjoy but now can't or they'll have pvp forced on them.
I'm sure people do want to kill and steal without having to face any real threat of consequences. Too bad for them.
You keep talking about people not wanting to face the consequences, when it is just about people not wanting to pvp. Try to absorb this piece of information then work with that instead of running around making assumptions and effectively arguing with yourself.
Ok, what are the "consequences" if players aren't able to be on the enforcement side of things? Better yet, what do you propose players who want to play lawful characters do when the content update comes if they can't be guards? Sit around and wait for another update?
The justice system could be made entirely pve - player guards could chase and arrest NPC criminals running about town stealing and killing, and player criminals could be chased and arrested by NPC guards and NPC citizens.
And if no important NPCs could be targeted/attacked and were not at all reactive then there would be no way for anyone to grief or involve anyone not participating in the justice system.
Well, since the second part of your post is already true, we can ignore that.
Now explain to me again what the consequences of crime are if you can outrun any NPC guard.
Make it so we can't outrun the NPC guards if they're within range (give them a snare) - if we have a bounty then we should get caught almost all the time.
Can't happen.
As Sage mentioned before: players will always find a way to exploit NPC behavior. There's no way around it. In order for a justice system to have actual consequences, it needs to be enforced by players. And frankly, this is what everyone has been hoping for since they announced an MMO. We already have a single-player version of the justice system. This game will offer a multiplayer one.
So this is what everyone has been hoping for, is it? Did you have to sacrifice 12 virgins to learn this truth? Do you have some all knowing crystal ball?
No, I've just been playing the Elder Scrolls series for 12 years. Being part of that community has given me a pretty good feel for what Elder Scrolls players who wanted to see an attempt at an MMO wanted from the experience.
So wait, who is this community and why do they speak for all Elder Scrolls players? Did we elect them? Is there a group I needed to join when I started playing Elder Scrolls games? Did I miss a memo somewhere?
Do you think we should give players voting rights based on the length of time that they have played TES games? After all, the more and longer you have played TES games the more valued and experienced your opinion is after all.See, those of us who have actually played the single-player series still play those games. We don't need to duplicate that experience in an MMO, because we're looking for a multiplayer experience. If I want single-player fun, I've already poured thousands of hours of my life in to Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. I can pour a few more in.
I'm sorry, you are speaking for everyone who played the single player series? And all of them still play those games? I must be the exception then. Do you still play Arena? Wow. Amazing. No wait, only from Morrowind?
Again you are speaking for the entire player base and stating what they want as fact. I don't want it. You don't have magical all knowing powers. Stop speaking for other people unless you are sure you have their backing.2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Can't happen.
As Sage mentioned before: players will always find a way to exploit NPC behavior. There's no way around it. In order for a justice system to have actual consequences, it needs to be enforced by players. And frankly, this is what everyone has been hoping for since they announced an MMO. We already have a single-player version of the justice system. This game will offer a multiplayer one.
My bold and I totally agree with that statement but
I don't understand how you can say on the one hand that in a PVE system players will always find a way to exploit but once you introduce PVP all of the sudden its magically foolproof.
There needs to be some serious safeguards to keep people from exploiting whatever method they use and I expect that is part of the reason its taken so long to bring this about.
I'm not saying that PvP players don't exploit, but they generally don't exploit mechanics that are working as intended. You can't, for example, confuse a player by LoS-ing them into a wall. You can't predict player behavior and use that knowledge to effectively make yourself immune from potential consequences. That's why they want players involved in the enforcement area.----
Murray?2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@nerevarine1138 still waiting on the quote you claim to have stating ZOS has now made essential NPCs like bankers non-attackable and non-reactive, to counter the quote they made here where they stated bankers etc will be attackable/reactive -ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.1 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@nerevarine1138 still waiting on the quote you claim to have stating ZOS has now made essential NPCs like bankers non-attackable and non-reactive, to counter the quote they made here where they stated bankers etc will be attackable/reactive -ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.
And that interferes with other players... how?
If I attack a banker but can't kill them, that doesn't do anything to the players at the bank. And since one can reasonably assume that ZO made them unkillable in order to prevent disruption at the bank, one can also reasonably assume that their being attacked won't break the dialogue box. But then again, that's asking for reason.----
Murray?2