Maintenance for the week of January 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 6
• NA megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 13:00 UTC (8:00AM EST)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 6
• NA megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 13:00 UTC (8:00AM EST)
Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.
-
Halorin✭✭✭Why is this such a hot topic anyway?
Because people. People think they're entitled to their version of everything in the game, and anyone that sees it differently is wrong and doesn't know TES and shouldn't be talking. That's what I've gathered from the people who feel there should be a PVE-only variant of the justice system.
They can't seem to get their heads around the fact that Paul Sage said player guards will be a thing in the justice system to prevent players from exploiting the system. They think they are 'innocent' in stealing from NPCs because they're NPCs.
They seem to be very selective on what parts of the ES franchise's open world gameplay style they want to incorporate in the justice system. Some have touted 'playing and doing what I want' as a staple of the franchise, which is why they should be able to play as criminals without facing consequences from other players, but they seemingly ignore the idea that the basis for their same argument means a player should be able to play a guard if they so chose. That player's want to play something should be discounted, apparently.
People want to play this game like it's a single player game with a chat room, and refuse to accept that this is an MMO and you will run into other people. With blinders on to all of the MMO elements and gameplay design choices like the guild system that are designed for interaction, they feel the game should mold to them. Sadly, the developers have fostered and rewarded this behavior to an extent by making the game so soloable, especially in the veteran ranks.
But that should stop with this, and I'm banking heavily on Paul Sage's stance about NPC exploitation as a reason why PVP will be a part of the justice system.
The linear quest lines can all be played like Skyrim Online, to the point it's almost pointless to have a group since the content will be so easy. There's already another solo PVE zone being made.
Keep the community involvement.
I think people narrow-mindedness is hilarious about all of this, though. People want to play criminals without PVP interaction to have the feeling of thieving or killing people, which is in and of itself a form of griefing to the characters they steal from. But they don't want to face consequences they can't predict or feel certain they can avoid. Law enforcement is not griefing.
'My character, in a franchise that has a long tradition of being open world and allows players to do what they want, should be able to steal from and slit the necks of as many NPCs as I want, but your character that is a guard upholding the law shouldn't be able to do anything about it because THAT would be griefing. I should be able to wholesale slaughter anyone, knowing I have the means to escape capture once I've figured out the AI patterns. Never mind that this will make the justice system entirely pointless, and that it may as well not be there at all since the escape portion will be a formality and it will be back to just looting houses in NPCs' faces. I need to feel like a thief, but I don't want any of the downside'.
No one can grief another player with the way this system's seemingly set up. You can't get attacked if you don't commit crimes. If the consequences are too much for you, then don't do it. Don't try to circumvent it by campaigning for an easy mode with consequences you can easily avoid.
6 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.Edited by babylon on July 29, 2014 2:06PM3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
There will be far more abuse from the pvp players.
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
Nope, making a PVE options for justice system => players abusing exploits to get away from NPCs and as Sage said "no matter what we do, you will allways find a way". Seems like no solving that one, at least not on dev side.
Too bad I guess
So making a pve option at least keeps the abusers away from the rest of us.
Being against an option for pve isn't about fearing a pve player will "abuse the system". It's about fearing there won't be enough pvp players because we know most people don't want to pvp in the open world.
We are asking for a pve option, and if the devs are listening, they'll find a way to make it happen.
If not, they won't be giving us what we want and this entire system will go to waste and also cause loads of exploit issues and headaches for ZOS.
If they listen to people who want pve option, all the thieves will go for it since they wan easy loot and no challenge (since the point of the system is not to implement PVP in PVE but to implement an exciting justice system). Guards will just get chewed by High level players who will just go to low areas to make rampage & kill NPCs unchallenged, forcing all the players who are talking to NPCs to "drop out of the chat window" because the NPC is attacked and nobody will be able to do anything about it.
Sounds really much more awesome than just allowing PVE players to act as guards & have a fun & fair system for everybody.
PVE option will make justice system fail and everybody will end up abusing it with noone to enforce any kind of law.
Thankfully, it doesn't seem things are going towards that direction.Edited by TehMagnus on July 29, 2014 2:19PM3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options. Quest's, Dungeons, time trials? No pvpers are not asking for that are they.
Why can't you just be happy that PVP players will have something that does not drag PVE players into it unless they do so choose?
It boggles the mind! ESO is currently 95% PVE. ALL the added content has been PVE so far, suddenly, after months they decide to add a 'little' amount of PVP and the PVE players are raging without knowing anything about it.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
It's not PVE players, it's some players that claim to represent the whole PVE community so that ZOS people that read the forum think everybody is against it
. 2 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
The section I have highlighted is based on speculation. We simply do not know. Refer to my thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/122883/the-justice-system-thieves-guild-and-dark-brotherhood#latest which discusses this very thing.
Their is nothing that suggests that a justice system will be effected by the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild. They are not even being introduced at the same time. I expect these two guilds to be similar to the other in game guilds which is a PVE story focus with the possibility of extra PVP side jobs.
Have some empathy for other people? This could just as easily be turned the other way, you have PVE now let some PVP content be added.Edited by Tannakaobi on July 29, 2014 2:20PM2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
There will be far more abuse from the pvp players.
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
Nope, making a PVE options for justice system => players abusing exploits to get away from NPCs and as Sage said "no matter what we do, you will allways find a way". Seems like no solving that one, at least not on dev side.
Too bad I guess
So making a pve option at least keeps the abusers away from the rest of us.
Being against an option for pve isn't about fearing a pve player will "abuse the system". It's about fearing there won't be enough pvp players because we know most people don't want to pvp in the open world.
We are asking for a pve option, and if the devs are listening, they'll find a way to make it happen.
If not, they won't be giving us what we want and this entire system will go to waste and also cause loads of exploit issues and headaches for ZOS.
If they listen to people who want pve option, all the thieves will go for it since they wan easy loot and no challenge...Thankfully, ZOS thought about it and won't listen to you
How is killing an L25 player guard when I'm VR12 a challenge?
There will be ways to destroy "challenge" whether it's pve or pvp - in fact it'll be even easier to have no challenge in pvp.
If they add special NPC guard attacks and skills they can probably make pve the more challenging mode.
I simply suggest they add a pve mode for the justice system so we can all enjoy the justice system and Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. No reason to force pvp on pve players, and no reason to exclude pve players from the justice system, and from Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, because they don't want pvp.
And no reason to exclude people based on this "challenge" thing which as we've seen is an illusion anyway. My guess is the pve guards will be far more challenging than a VR12 killing the L25 guy.
As far as ZOS "thankfully" not listening to me (and the rest of us requesting this option), maybe they will - I certainly hope they do, and I hope they take notice of just how much resistance the handful of pro pvp-only people are throwing at a perfectly reasonable request that pve players get to experience the justice system in a pve way.
Edited by babylon on July 29, 2014 2:25PM3 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options. Quest's, Dungeons, time trials? No pvpers are not asking for that are they.
Why can't you just be happy that PVP players will have something that does not drag PVE players into it unless they do so choose?
It boggles the mind! ESO is currently 95% PVE. ALL the added content has been PVE so far, suddenly, after months they decide to add a 'little' amount of PVP and the PVE players are raging without knowing anything about it.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
It's not PVE players, it's some players that claim to represent the whole PVE community so that ZOS people that read the forum think everybody is against it.
Of course, and in the same vein it is not all the PVP players that want to grief people, not even a majority. I'm sure Zos has the intelligence to recognize this.1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Better they implement this system right and in a way the player base actually wants than hurry it through and make the game actually worse for its inclusion.Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
We want the option to participate in a pve way. Let them code this in.
1 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
How is killing an L25 player guard when I'm VR12 a challenge?
It's a challenge for the L25 player who will need help from VR12 guards to kill you in any case, he asked for it and opted in when he joined guards faction. Nobody forced it on him and if he doesn't like it he will prolly be able to leave the faction.
There will be ways to destroy "challenge" whether it's pve or pvp - in fact it'll be even easier to have no challenge in pvp.
Sure because most of the exploiting in the game has been done in PVP, it's not like people in Hell Ra's left side are skipping mobs, it's not like people doing trials actually react to bosses mechanics as intended (trials runs at high level are not a challenge anymore, it's just spaming allways the same abilities & crit potions at a standard pace).
It's not like people became billionaires by looting hundreds of Soulgems or epic items with anomaly farming (no challenge to get money anymore), it's not like people exploiting in Hircine are taking the challenge out of leveling VR ranks.
There will be zero challenge with a PVE system. zero. At least with PVP system, you don't know what's coming and can expect the unexpected.If they add special NPC guard attacks and skills they can probably make pve the more challenging mode.
People will exploit them, just like they exploit trials which are supposed to be the hardest content IG.I simply suggest they add a pve mode for the justice system so we can all enjoy the justice system and Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. No reason to force pvp on pve players, and no reason to exclude pve players from the justice system, and from Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, because they don't want pvp.
And no reason to exclude people based on this "challenge" thing which as we've seen is an illusion anyway. My guess is the pve guards will be far more challenging than a VR12 killing the L25 guy.
It won't be when people find out how to avoid them and everybody does it.As far as ZOS "thankfully" not listening to me (and the rest of us requesting this option), maybe they will - I certainly hope they do, and I hope they take notice on just how much resistance the handful of pro pvp-only people are throwing at a perfectly reasonable request that pve players get to experience the justice system in a pve way.
It looks more to me like a handfull of PVE players being afraid of a small PVP addition and I hope ZOS implements a system that eases the passage for you guys.
Edited by TehMagnus on July 29, 2014 2:34PM2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS will hopefully listen to our reasonable request, and realise the motivation the above have for trying to force pvp on us.2 -
Kalann_Pander✭✭✭I haven't read the 22 pages of this thread.
To answer the OP's suggestion : NO.
No PvP beyond Cyrodill and what ZoS announced for the justice system.Opinions are like buttholes : Everybody has one, and they usually stink.
3 things to reduce stamina/magicka imbalance :
- Use magicka to block abilities costing magicka, instead of stamina.
- Add % damage reduction to heavy armor.
- Add block penetration to 2H.1 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭
Better they implement this system right and in a way the player base actually wants than hurry it through and make the game actually worse for its inclusion.Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
We want the option to participate in a pve way. Let them code this in.
I agree, and I'm open to PVE options. But it has to be grief free. Frankly it would not be on that a Nightblade for example, could gank me while I'm in combat with NPC's and then un-flag themselves so I can't seek retribution. Which is the concern with a PVP/PVE option. But all that is speculation based on nothing.2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »
Better they implement this system right and in a way the player base actually wants than hurry it through and make the game actually worse for its inclusion.Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
We want the option to participate in a pve way. Let them code this in.
I agree, and I'm open to PVE options. But it has to be grief free. Frankly it would not be on that a Nightblade for example, could gank me while I'm in combat with NPC's and then un-flag themselves so I can't seek retribution. Which is the concern with a PVP/PVE option. But all that is speculation based on nothing.
Any kind of pve/pvp toggle would need a cooldown, so you couldn't flip it and instantly go into gank mode or escape a legit kill.3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »
Better they implement this system right and in a way the player base actually wants than hurry it through and make the game actually worse for its inclusion.Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
We want the option to participate in a pve way. Let them code this in.
I agree, and I'm open to PVE options. But it has to be grief free. Frankly it would not be on that a Nightblade for example, could gank me while I'm in combat with NPC's and then un-flag themselves so I can't seek retribution. Which is the concern with a PVP/PVE option. But all that is speculation based on nothing.
Any kind of pve/pvp toggle would need a cooldown, so you couldn't flip it and instantly go into gank mode or escape a legit kill.
This I can agree upon.0 -
Halorin✭✭✭
Better they implement this system right and in a way the player base actually wants than hurry it through and make the game actually worse for its inclusion.Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
We want the option to participate in a pve way. Let them code this in.
They don't want to code it in. Paul Sage said it clear as day. PVP in the justice system has been talked about and confirmed since before the game launched. A moderator's posted in here, so your argument's been documented to some extent.
Players will not be griefed by a system that is voluntary. A player cannot just walk up to some other player and attack them for no reason. It's been said by the developers what kind of consequences you'll be facing if you become a criminal, so it's your choice if you want to take that path or not.
The justice system is putting you in your character's shoes by making you consider if the life of crime is really worth it to you. ESO's quest lines consistently puts you in the mindset of your character with the decisions you make about who lives or dies or what happens. This is an expanded step toward that sense of immersion, which is what the Elders Scrolls franchise is about.
But instead of embracing that fact, you don't want to be met with consequences that you might not be able to manage. You're labeling every attempt by a player to enforce the law as some instance of griefing, which is just not the case. How can a player who can only attack a player if they commit a crime be considered a griefer? You, as a criminal, are the bad guy. The good guys aren't griefers.
You just don't want to be policed. I can understand why, but that's the point of law enforcement. If people could walk into a bank and take all the money without penalty, they probably would. But those pesky laws and people willing to enforce them get in the way.
The justice system is a genius implementation of PVP that is faithful to the franchise and brings the community together. They are developing ways for PVP and PVE to mesh to give the world a living feel. The actions in the Imperial City make sense in both a gameplay design as well as a character standpoint. It's immersion.
This invisible force field you want is a slap in the face to the franchise's main selling point, in my opinion.
Also, you don't speak for 'the people'. You speak for yourself, so I would suggest you get off that high horse like you represent some large mass of people. You don't, and until someone comes in here and says you represent them entirely, you only weaken your argument by trying to throw some false sense of weight behind your words. You're just one person like anyone else.
6 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Better they implement this system right and in a way the player base actually wants than hurry it through and make the game actually worse for its inclusion.Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
We want the option to participate in a pve way. Let them code this in.
They don't want to code it in. Paul Sage said it clear as day. PVP in the justice system has been talked about and confirmed since before the game launched. A moderator's posted in here, so your argument's been documented to some extent.
Players will not be griefed by a system that is voluntary. A player cannot just walk up to some other player and attack them for no reason. It's been said by the developers what kind of consequences you'll be facing if you become a criminal, so it's your choice if you want to take that path or not.
The justice system is putting you in your character's shoes by making you consider if the life of crime is really worth it to you. ESO's quest lines consistently puts you in the mindset of your character with the decisions you make about who lives or dies or what happens. This is an expanded step toward that sense of immersion, which is what the Elders Scrolls franchise is about.
But instead of embracing that fact, you don't want to be met with consequences that you might not be able to manage. You're labeling every attempt by a player to enforce the law as some instance of griefing, which is just not the case. How can a player who can only attack a player if they commit a crime be considered a griefer? You, as a criminal, are the bad guy. The good guys aren't griefers.
You just don't want to be policed. I can understand why, but that's the point of law enforcement. If people could walk into a bank and take all the money without penalty, they probably would. But those pesky laws and people willing to enforce them get in the way.
The justice system is a genius implementation of PVP that is faithful to the franchise and brings the community together. They are developing ways for PVP and PVE to mesh to give the world a living feel. The actions in the Imperial City make sense in both a gameplay design as well as a character standpoint. It's immersion.
This invisible force field you want is a slap in the face to the franchise's main selling point, in my opinion.
Also, you don't speak for 'the people'. You speak for yourself, so I would suggest you get off that high horse like you represent some large mass of people. You don't, and until someone comes in here and says you represent them entirely, you only weaken your argument by trying to throw some false sense of weight behind your words. You're just one person like anyone else.
They are open to changing the game, just look at the vet zone fiasco and how they had to 360 on that.
Going to flag your posts for the insults then ignore you from now on.5 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »
Better they implement this system right and in a way the player base actually wants than hurry it through and make the game actually worse for its inclusion.Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
We want the option to participate in a pve way. Let them code this in.
I agree, and I'm open to PVE options. But it has to be grief free. Frankly it would not be on that a Nightblade for example, could gank me while I'm in combat with NPC's and then un-flag themselves so I can't seek retribution. Which is the concern with a PVP/PVE option. But all that is speculation based on nothing.
Any kind of pve/pvp toggle would need a cooldown, so you couldn't flip it and instantly go into gank mode or escape a legit kill.
Like I said, we just need to wait and see before we discuss these things. I'm not against PVE options and I expect the same from PVE players when it comes to PVP.
It does not seem to me that you are against PVP so long as you have PVE with is pretty much the same opinion I share only vise versa. It seems we agree.
In my opinion a good mmo will have variety for all their players. Most of my posts in this thread speak out against only those that don't want PVP in any shape or form. When I say selfish, it is these people I'm targeting.1 -
Halorin✭✭✭
Better they implement this system right and in a way the player base actually wants than hurry it through and make the game actually worse for its inclusion.Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
We want the option to participate in a pve way. Let them code this in.
They don't want to code it in. Paul Sage said it clear as day. PVP in the justice system has been talked about and confirmed since before the game launched. A moderator's posted in here, so your argument's been documented to some extent.
Players will not be griefed by a system that is voluntary. A player cannot just walk up to some other player and attack them for no reason. It's been said by the developers what kind of consequences you'll be facing if you become a criminal, so it's your choice if you want to take that path or not.
The justice system is putting you in your character's shoes by making you consider if the life of crime is really worth it to you. ESO's quest lines consistently puts you in the mindset of your character with the decisions you make about who lives or dies or what happens. This is an expanded step toward that sense of immersion, which is what the Elders Scrolls franchise is about.
But instead of embracing that fact, you don't want to be met with consequences that you might not be able to manage. You're labeling every attempt by a player to enforce the law as some instance of griefing, which is just not the case. How can a player who can only attack a player if they commit a crime be considered a griefer? You, as a criminal, are the bad guy. The good guys aren't griefers.
You just don't want to be policed. I can understand why, but that's the point of law enforcement. If people could walk into a bank and take all the money without penalty, they probably would. But those pesky laws and people willing to enforce them get in the way.
The justice system is a genius implementation of PVP that is faithful to the franchise and brings the community together. They are developing ways for PVP and PVE to mesh to give the world a living feel. The actions in the Imperial City make sense in both a gameplay design as well as a character standpoint. It's immersion.
This invisible force field you want is a slap in the face to the franchise's main selling point, in my opinion.
Also, you don't speak for 'the people'. You speak for yourself, so I would suggest you get off that high horse like you represent some large mass of people. You don't, and until someone comes in here and says you represent them entirely, you only weaken your argument by trying to throw some false sense of weight behind your words. You're just one person like anyone else.
They are open to changing the game, just look at the vet zone fiasco and how they had to 360 on that.
Going to flag your posts for the insults then ignore you from now on.
'Perfectly reasonable'. I like how you skip all of the points I've made and come away feeling insulted. I haven't called you any names, so flag away. I've just posed a logical counterpoint to the proposed alternate reality that's free of consequences that you want your character to live in.
Also.. After you complete a 360, you're facing the same direction. So you may want to edit that.Edited by Halorin on July 29, 2014 2:53PM5 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »As mentioned earlier, PvE players aren't "forced" to take part in a PvP system. You don't want to be attackable by other players? Don't get caught. Simple solution for a non-problem.
Dont steal anything or kill anything? Means no PVE player can play thieves guild or assassins guild because it means getting flagged for PVP, depriving the entire PVE population of the most popular TES guildplay. It means nobody can loot towns looking for purples they need on their crafter as it means getting flagged for PVP, considering I am always broke when I am in town having paid the banker/bagger gold sink and have no fine money. Means griefers can run mobs up to me standing by an NPC and force me to do a panic kill. I call those forced choices. The only choice should be did I login for PVP, not something that I risk when I only want a PVE playstyle. You most certainly are hoping people will end up in that forced choice accidently, otherwise you would be supporting PVP only as a login opt-in choice so that you truly are engaging in PVP with those who wanted to be in PVP.
Restating your concerns as carefully as I can from reading your post:
"Means no PVE player can play thieves guild or assassins guild because it means getting flagged for PVP, depriving the entire PVE population of the most popular TES guildplay. It means nobody can loot towns looking for purples they need on their crafter as it means getting flagged for PVP, considering I am always broke when I am in town having paid the banker/bagger gold sink and have no fine money."
This part means you think the current Justice system we have received info about is totally "unfair" because it would make you PvP if you do not wish to? Further, you are saying that you believe that PvE'rs SHOULD be able to utilize this new Justice content, be able to partake of stealing etc, but SHOULD NOT in any way be answerable TO other players ALSO interacting within this new Justice system as per what we currently know about its design?
If that is to be considered, then it would indeed be new content completely for PvE'rs, period.
You should contact the TESO developers immediately to Skype-conference on how this would be implemented and why they should change what they currently plan for the whole system and change it to make it completely protected for PvE players, excluding any PvP interest in its activation.
Aside from total instancing every single time you interact with an object/or/npc who/which is part of the Justice system (ie for Thieves or DB quests) -- I don't see how your idea could be implemented, but I'd be interested in hearing of a logical way to solve what you see to be the problem.
Your idea is in direct opposition to how the Justice system as most recently explained works. Its obvious its purpose is to underscore or support the developer's vision of having some interweaving, some bit of overlapping between both the PvE community of players and those who primarily PvP.
Right now for instance, a lot of PvP'rs utilize PvE 'content' to gain the exp they need to level and hit V12 as they feel the exp to level in Cyr is on the low side ;o)..I hear that will be changed. Here's hoping its changed the same 'tad' that Vet+ content was changed recently.
Cuz' that was a LOT. In that case the exp available to be earned in PvP will be awesome and players will flock there to earn their bones rather than feeling like they 'have' to go through the V+ PvE content in order to get where they want to compete in PvP eh?
There are obviously also PvE'rs who enjoy mixing it up a bit and learning in Cyrodil while they quest/obtain skyshards etc. But, you are asking for changes/implementation to protect/provide safety for all those who only/exclusively PvE, yes?
Hopefully more info is forthcoming sooner rather than later of course.
Edited by Anastasia on July 29, 2014 3:38PM1 -
theyancey✭✭✭✭✭
✭The more I read the more concerned I become about this. We seem to be on a track of less and less solo PvE content for the casual gamer, a major proportion of the player base if forum posts over the last year are accurate. There has been no horizontal PvE content added. After lvl 50 the reasons for said players to stay subbed are few and far between. If they stay they are forced into PvP or group/raid activities. Do you really expect people to stay, play, and pay a game that turns them off?
I've enjoyed the game. I believe that my 6 month sub was a wise choice. I had been set to auto renew for another 6 months. I changed that this past week to month to month. Without content support to those like me and isolation from the PvP type players that frequently post here then is it not possible for 20%-40% of those to just bag it until update 3 or beyond? After all, there are some major new games set for release this fall. Are you peeps demanding world PvP willing to increase your subs to $25-$35 per month to offset the loss? I'm guessing not. Are the stakeholders in Zenimax willing to accept the resulting hit to their bottom line? Would you? Of course not. I sincerely doubt that any of the individual principals would either and I know that Providence, with its successful history of being an activist investor group, would let its $300MM stake wither without intervening.
The challenge for Matt and Paul is create a game environment that results in most subs over the longest period of time. What we have now and what has been proposed satisfies no one. It may be that they must give up some of their initial visions of the game in order for it to flourish at its maximum. Maybe they really do need to have dedicated shards for the PvP crowd. The same for those more interested in RP. The griefers and gankers could have a field day on their side. The PvE players could have a justice system in line with their interests.
One of the biggest successes this game has scored is in its informal grouping scenarios. You are able to blend in and out of dungeon mates without having to stop to deal with this one's bio break or that one's family agro. Everyone gets the same loot and quest completion. The megaserver reliably puts guildies and friends into the same shards. Given these accomplishments I see no barrier to ZOS being able to congregate and segregate PvPers into their shards and PvEers into ours. Both large groups would get what they want, be happier, and stay subbed longer.0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
Better they implement this system right and in a way the player base actually wants than hurry it through and make the game actually worse for its inclusion.Tannakaobi wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »
If all this is so easy to implement then so will making a pve option for the justice system.
So either now high level players are barred from looting in low level towns, or we get to 1 hit KO the capped L25 player guard.
VR players can only enfore justice in VR areas, players with level 1-25 can only enforce justice in1-25 areas and same for 25-50 areas?
Oops, did I just solve the issue with an extremely easy system?
Yeah, sounds solved
Moreover, It's very easy to implement a system...
More stuff solved! ^_^
So fair is fair, we will turn all the PVE game into PVP options.
Honestly, it's SELFISH!
How exactly is asking for an option being selfish. Constantly trying to enforce lack of options is selfish, not the reverse.
Have some empathy for other people.
I would have no problem with turning dungeons into pvp options, though Cyrodiil already has this so not sure what you are campaigning for seeing as it's already in the game.
All people are wanting is the option to not have to engage other players while being able to participate in the justice system (including Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, things we've all been looking forward to for a long time).
There needs to be a pve option that lets players participate in this justice system.
It's selfish because to make pvp/pve options to every element of the game would take up so much time and we would have half the content we do.
We want the option to participate in a pve way. Let them code this in.
I agree, and I'm open to PVE options. But it has to be grief free. Frankly it would not be on that a Nightblade for example, could gank me while I'm in combat with NPC's and then un-flag themselves so I can't seek retribution. Which is the concern with a PVP/PVE option. But all that is speculation based on nothing.
Any kind of pve/pvp toggle would need a cooldown, so you couldn't flip it and instantly go into gank mode or escape a legit kill.
Like I said, we just need to wait and see before we discuss these things. I'm not against PVE options and I expect the same from PVE players when it comes to PVP.
It does not seem to me that you are against PVP so long as you have PVE with is pretty much the same opinion I share only vise versa. It seems we agree.
In my opinion a good mmo will have variety for all their players. Most of my posts in this thread speak out against only those that don't want PVP in any shape or form. When I say selfish, it is these people I'm targeting.
I'm not at all against pvp (I actually enjoy it a lot, I just like to compartmentalise my gameplay). I do want to participate in the justice system however without involving pvp, for my playstyle I'd rather keep this vs NPCs. I am simply hoping they give us the option to participate in a pve way for this system.
It's such a huge thing, especially if it also includes Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, it would be a shame to limit it so drastically.3 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭How about we rerail this post in the right (original at least) direction:
Talking about having some PVP or some PVP flagging system in PVE zones and leave the Justice talk for this new post?
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/122965/an-actual-poll-about-the-justice-system#latest
thanks!Edited by TehMagnus on July 29, 2014 3:03PM1 -
Halorin✭✭✭The more I read the more concerned I become about this. We seem to be on a track of less and less solo PvE content for the casual gamer, a major proportion of the player base if forum posts over the last year are accurate. There has been no horizontal PvE content added. After lvl 50 the reasons for said players to stay subbed are few and far between. If they stay they are forced into PvP or group/raid activities. Do you really expect people to stay, play, and pay a game that turns them off?
I've enjoyed the game. I believe that my 6 month sub was a wise choice. I had been set to auto renew for another 6 months. I changed that this past week to month to month. Without content support to those like me and isolation from the PvP type players that frequently post here then is it not possible for 20%-40% of those to just bag it until update 3 or beyond? After all, there are some major new games set for release this fall. Are you peeps demanding world PvP willing to increase your subs to $25-$35 per month to offset the loss? I'm guessing not. Are the stakeholders in Zenimax willing to accept the resulting hit to their bottom line? Would you? Of course not. I sincerely doubt that any of the individual principals would either and I know that Providence, with its successful history of being an activist investor group, would let its $300MM stake wither without intervening.
The challenge for Matt and Paul is create a game environment that results in most subs over the longest period of time. What we have now and what has been proposed satisfies no one. It may be that they must give up some of their initial visions of the game in order for it to flourish at its maximum. Maybe they really do need to have dedicated shards for the PvP crowd. The same for those more interested in RP. The griefers and gankers could have a field day on their side. The PvE players could have a justice system in line with their interests.
One of the biggest successes this game has scored is in its informal grouping scenarios. You are able to blend in and out of dungeon mates without having to stop to deal with this one's bio break or that one's family agro. Everyone gets the same loot and quest completion. The megaserver reliably puts guildies and friends into the same shards. Given these accomplishments I see no barrier to ZOS being able to congregate and segregate PvPers into their shards and PvEers into ours. Both large groups would get what they want, be happier, and stay subbed longer.
What?
After 1-50, there are the veteran ranks, which have been made easier for solo players. There's an entire solo PVE zone coming out, in addition to a second zone that will likely be soloable as well. Not to mention the further changes coming to the Veteran system.
So the foundation of your argument makes absolutely no sense and is stale by about two months.
Also, I don't know where anyone's getting the information that stealing from NPCs is the only way to level up the thieves guild and killing them is the only want to level the Dark Brotherhood.
Let's say there's an instance where there are full quest lines for these two new guilds that are entirely PVE and that the justice system with stealing and killing NPCs is the grab for PVP-minded players to get involved. Would you further infringe on PVP interest by demanding a PVE version of what's being made for PVP players?
2 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So for the PVP in PVE areas:
- Flaging system?
- Duel system?
- Areas like Cyrodill & Imperial City who have PVP & PVE combination?
- Nothing!
Any other ideas?
For justice system:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/122965/an-actual-poll-about-the-justice-system#latestEdited by TehMagnus on July 29, 2014 3:11PM1 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭It's such a huge thing, especially if it also includes Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, it would be a shame to limit it so drastically.
I honestly can't see this being the case. What we do know about Zenimax is that they have bent over backwards trying to please as many people as possible.
Sometimes for good, sometimes not so good.
Even if the justice system is only PVP I just can't see the same being the case with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. It's the corner stone of their game. They simply will not limit it in this way.
It is possible that you will need to work on the Justice system to level the skills. But is it really as bad as you think?
For one thing you will only be open to PVP if and when you are seen. So your going about your business stealing murdering. You get seen and either an NPC guard or Player guard catches you. You pay your dues and go on your way free from any more PVP.
It's not the same as open world PVP where you can be killed on sight at any time.
It's all speculation but it sounds like a really interesting system and I don't think you have much to worry about when it comes to the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood.
Edited by Tannakaobi on July 29, 2014 3:14PM1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »It's such a huge thing, especially if it also includes Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, it would be a shame to limit it so drastically.
I honestly can't see this being the case. What we do know about Zenimax is that they have bent over backwards trying to please as many people as possible.
Sometimes for good, sometimes not so good.
Even if the justice system is only PVP I just can't see the same being the case with the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. It's the corner stone of their game. They simply will not limit it in this way.
It is possible that you will need to work on the Justice system to level the skills. But is it really as bad as you think?
For one thing you will only be open to PVP if and when you are seen. So your going about your business stealing murdering. You get seen and either an NPC guard or Player guard catches you. You pay your dues and go on your way free from any more PVP.
It's not the same as open world PVP where you can be killed on sight at any time.
It's all speculation but it sounds like a really interesting system and I don't think you have much to worry about when it comes to the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood.
I just think they could just as easily keep the system pve and not try to make players pvp, regardless of the point at which a player opens themselves to pvp.
It simply needs to be an option, or they'll be limiting the system unnecessarily, and most likely annoying a great deal of the player base at the same time.2 -
Thechemicals✭✭✭✭✭Im here to buzzkill all the pk's looking forward to these changes. You will never grief a player who doesn't want to participate in your sociopathic behavior. thanks and gnight.Vr14 Templar since release- dual resto
Vr14 Dk bow/2h
Brayan Blackthunder
Goddick
Daggerfall Covenant1 -
Delith✭✭✭✭TES is about freedom. Faction based warfare with opt in interactions amongst players is not freedom.
Tamriel is a dangerous place. Dumbing it down for the masses in ESO is one of the most frustrating things I have ever experienced. Reading this forum thread, I have lost all hope for the future of MMO games. I truly cannot believe how risk averse western culture has become, so much so that it has permeated our ability to enjoy a VIRTUAL WORLD, where there is no threat to our actual health or wellbeing.
The reason virtual worlds keep dying is because of your fear at being inconvenienced. Games are supposed to be about challenge and adversity.
How can you be a hero if there are no villains? How can you appreciate good when there is no bad? How can you expect people to maintain interest in a game that has no depth beyond variance in how you kill monsters on a preset path?
You can't. That's why the game gets old, boring, and people quit eventually, even those who love the game.
Designing content so that it will be consumed and then left is financially inefficient. It doesn't matter how many people want it. It is not the best design choice for an online game.
Designing mechanics that revolve entirely around emergent gameplay will yield infinite replayability, as each situation arises out of circumstances that are difficult to reproduce.
Stop the themepark. This is Tamriel. It's supposed to be open, and free.6 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Thechemicals wrote: »Im here to buzzkill all the pk's looking forward to these changes. You will never grief a player who doesn't want to participate in your sociopathic behavior. thanks and gnight.
And like-wise the 'Carebears' will never be able to enjoy the justice system without crying and being demolished by my sociopathic behavior.
mwahh!
2 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭By participating in the justice system, you HAVE consented to the type of play it entails which can include PvP. If you don't want to risk any PvP, then don't participate in activities that expose you to it.
But what about people who want to participate in a justice system without it involving interaction with other (hostile) players (pvp). There needs to be a pve version of the justice system. It isn't even like most people want open world pvp - only around 10% (if that) want this.
I feel that making the justice system involve pvp is a mistake, and needs to be reconsidered.
They should make the justice system optional pvp, add in dueling so people can test their pvp builds without needing to jink around trying to get themselves a bounty, and make sure Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood also do not involve pvp.
o-0
babylon;1147305"] "But what about people who want to participate in a justice system without it involving interaction with other (hostile) players (pvp). There needs to be a pve version of the justice system. It isn't even like most people want open world pvp - only around 10% (if that) want this.
I feel that making the justice system involve pvp is a mistake, and needs to be reconsidered."
I am sure that you wish ZOS would have consulted with you about the Justice System which is already developed, but not yet on the live megaserve. Though obviously we do not currently have all the details, you wish it to be completely changed...just as I heartily wished ZOS would have taken into consideration my and others opinion that nerfing mobs difficulty and deleting any motivation from PvE grouping in V+ 1-10 content would have direct repercussions on what is TESO endgame.
Let me know if they info you on any literal total and complete changes they plan to implement to the upcoming Justice System in order to take away from their vision of interweaving a bit of PvE and PvP interaction. This would be put in place to protect the sanctity and safety for that particular target population of players who exclusively PvE and don't want to be 'bothered' by the consequences of the new Justice system, but who DO demand to participate in it. It would of course take a little extra staff man-hours to go back and make such changes to code, but c'est la vie.
Edited by Anastasia on July 29, 2014 3:50PM4