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Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »A few simple rules is all that it would take:
- to be in PvP, you either have to go into a PvP zone, or flag yourself
- no flagged player can affect a non-flagged character in any way, and vice versa
- nobody can be flagged unless they do it on purpose
But the minute they force PvP onto players that don't want to PvP, is the minute the game starts dying.
Strange. That's exactly what the justice system is.
Good. Make it completely optional, with no way to affect players who don't want to PvP, then you are fine.
That's what they're doing. Sounds like they're fine.----
Murray?2 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The way the justice system was proposed sounds OK. It gives people the choice to participate or not.
To the OP however, being able to "gank" other players, regardless of level, without their CONSENTING to be involved in that playstyle would be a HORRIBLE idea. Countless people would be insulted and unsubscribe, myself included.
I generally hate PVP, mostly because of the mentality it tends to attract. Sure there is the competitive spirit, the desire to be a badass and beat down other players in fair and honorable combat. But it never stops there, does it?
Being able to kill PVE players without their having any choice to simply play the game without being subjected to this form or attention craving harassment would be an incredibly selfish move, forcing people to adopt such a mentality in a "play how you want" game.
Which is precisely why it will NEVER happen. ZOS has already said this on a recent thread on a similar topic. I am glad of it.Edited by Phinix1 on July 26, 2014 9:57PM3 -
billp_ESO✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »A few simple rules is all that it would take:
- to be in PvP, you either have to go into a PvP zone, or flag yourself
- no flagged player can affect a non-flagged character in any way, and vice versa
- nobody can be flagged unless they do it on purpose
But the minute they force PvP onto players that don't want to PvP, is the minute the game starts dying.
Strange. That's exactly what the justice system is.
Good. Make it completely optional, with no way to affect players who don't want to PvP, then you are fine.
That's what they're doing. Sounds like they're fine.
Ideally, once you flag yourself, you go into a different "server". But if not, then make sure there is *no* interaction: no talking to, no trading with, no healing, no attacking, no anything, with a player that isn't the same as you. No chance for a stray AOE to activate a PvP flag, or a stray heal.
That way, a player who doesn't want to PvP can never be forced to PvP.5 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »A few simple rules is all that it would take:
- to be in PvP, you either have to go into a PvP zone, or flag yourself
- no flagged player can affect a non-flagged character in any way, and vice versa
- nobody can be flagged unless they do it on purpose
But the minute they force PvP onto players that don't want to PvP, is the minute the game starts dying.
Strange. That's exactly what the justice system is.
Good. Make it completely optional, with no way to affect players who don't want to PvP, then you are fine.
That's what they're doing. Sounds like they're fine.
Ideally, once you flag yourself, you go into a different "server". But if not, then make sure there is *no* interaction: no talking to, no trading with, no healing, no attacking, no anything, with a player that isn't the same as you. No chance for a stray AOE to activate a PvP flag, or a stray heal.
That way, a player who doesn't want to PvP can never be forced to PvP.
No, no and no.
You can't "accidentally" get flagged for PvP in the justice system. You have to deliberately commit a crime or deliberately flag yourself as a guard. If you do neither of these things, you'll only see the system in action, not participate in it.----
Murray?3 -
billp_ESO✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »A few simple rules is all that it would take:
- to be in PvP, you either have to go into a PvP zone, or flag yourself
- no flagged player can affect a non-flagged character in any way, and vice versa
- nobody can be flagged unless they do it on purpose
But the minute they force PvP onto players that don't want to PvP, is the minute the game starts dying.
Strange. That's exactly what the justice system is.
Good. Make it completely optional, with no way to affect players who don't want to PvP, then you are fine.
That's what they're doing. Sounds like they're fine.
Ideally, once you flag yourself, you go into a different "server". But if not, then make sure there is *no* interaction: no talking to, no trading with, no healing, no attacking, no anything, with a player that isn't the same as you. No chance for a stray AOE to activate a PvP flag, or a stray heal.
That way, a player who doesn't want to PvP can never be forced to PvP.
No, no and no.
You can't "accidentally" get flagged for PvP in the justice system. You have to deliberately commit a crime or deliberately flag yourself as a guard. If you do neither of these things, you'll only see the system in action, not participate in it.
So if you are next to some PvP'ing people, and cast an AOE heal, will it flag you too?1 -
KariTR✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »A few simple rules is all that it would take:
- to be in PvP, you either have to go into a PvP zone, or flag yourself
- no flagged player can affect a non-flagged character in any way, and vice versa
- nobody can be flagged unless they do it on purpose
But the minute they force PvP onto players that don't want to PvP, is the minute the game starts dying.
Strange. That's exactly what the justice system is.
Good. Make it completely optional, with no way to affect players who don't want to PvP, then you are fine.
That's what they're doing. Sounds like they're fine.
Ideally, once you flag yourself, you go into a different "server". But if not, then make sure there is *no* interaction: no talking to, no trading with, no healing, no attacking, no anything, with a player that isn't the same as you. No chance for a stray AOE to activate a PvP flag, or a stray heal.
That way, a player who doesn't want to PvP can never be forced to PvP.
No, no and no.
You can't "accidentally" get flagged for PvP in the justice system. You have to deliberately commit a crime or deliberately flag yourself as a guard. If you do neither of these things, you'll only see the system in action, not participate in it.
Kudos for continuing to respond to all the "fingers-in-ears-la-la-la-la-I'm-not-listening" posters.
I swear if it were up to some, we would have nothing good in game.
3 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »A few simple rules is all that it would take:
- to be in PvP, you either have to go into a PvP zone, or flag yourself
- no flagged player can affect a non-flagged character in any way, and vice versa
- nobody can be flagged unless they do it on purpose
But the minute they force PvP onto players that don't want to PvP, is the minute the game starts dying.
Strange. That's exactly what the justice system is.
Good. Make it completely optional, with no way to affect players who don't want to PvP, then you are fine.
That's what they're doing. Sounds like they're fine.
Ideally, once you flag yourself, you go into a different "server". But if not, then make sure there is *no* interaction: no talking to, no trading with, no healing, no attacking, no anything, with a player that isn't the same as you. No chance for a stray AOE to activate a PvP flag, or a stray heal.
That way, a player who doesn't want to PvP can never be forced to PvP.
No, no and no.
You can't "accidentally" get flagged for PvP in the justice system. You have to deliberately commit a crime or deliberately flag yourself as a guard. If you do neither of these things, you'll only see the system in action, not participate in it.
So if you are next to some PvP'ing people, and cast an AOE heal, will it flag you too?
No.
They have explicitly stated on the forums that you cannot accidentally flag yourself in the justice system by casting heals or damage.----
Murray?1 -
MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭If this game ever goes open world PvP, I'm going to cancel my sub so fast...it'll leave the developer's heads spinning. Counterclockwise.I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.1 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »A few simple rules is all that it would take:
- to be in PvP, you either have to go into a PvP zone, or flag yourself
- no flagged player can affect a non-flagged character in any way, and vice versa
- nobody can be flagged unless they do it on purpose
But the minute they force PvP onto players that don't want to PvP, is the minute the game starts dying.
Strange. That's exactly what the justice system is.
Good. Make it completely optional, with no way to affect players who don't want to PvP, then you are fine.
That's what they're doing. Sounds like they're fine.
Ideally, once you flag yourself, you go into a different "server". But if not, then make sure there is *no* interaction: no talking to, no trading with, no healing, no attacking, no anything, with a player that isn't the same as you. No chance for a stray AOE to activate a PvP flag, or a stray heal.
That way, a player who doesn't want to PvP can never be forced to PvP.
No, no and no.
You can't "accidentally" get flagged for PvP in the justice system. You have to deliberately commit a crime or deliberately flag yourself as a guard. If you do neither of these things, you'll only see the system in action, not participate in it.
So if you are next to some PvP'ing people, and cast an AOE heal, will it flag you too?
No.
They have explicitly stated on the forums that you cannot accidentally flag yourself in the justice system by casting heals or damage.
Yeah , now lets hope it actually works like that.
Cause with zen often is one thing on the paper and another what actually happening."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor5 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »A few simple rules is all that it would take:
- to be in PvP, you either have to go into a PvP zone, or flag yourself
- no flagged player can affect a non-flagged character in any way, and vice versa
- nobody can be flagged unless they do it on purpose
But the minute they force PvP onto players that don't want to PvP, is the minute the game starts dying.
Strange. That's exactly what the justice system is.
Good. Make it completely optional, with no way to affect players who don't want to PvP, then you are fine.
That's what they're doing. Sounds like they're fine.
Ideally, once you flag yourself, you go into a different "server". But if not, then make sure there is *no* interaction: no talking to, no trading with, no healing, no attacking, no anything, with a player that isn't the same as you. No chance for a stray AOE to activate a PvP flag, or a stray heal.
That way, a player who doesn't want to PvP can never be forced to PvP.
No, no and no.
You can't "accidentally" get flagged for PvP in the justice system. You have to deliberately commit a crime or deliberately flag yourself as a guard. If you do neither of these things, you'll only see the system in action, not participate in it.
So if you are next to some PvP'ing people, and cast an AOE heal, will it flag you too?
No.
They have explicitly stated on the forums that you cannot accidentally flag yourself in the justice system by casting heals or damage.
Yeah , now lets hope it actually works like that.
Cause with zen often is one thing on the paper and another what actually happening.
So because you can't complain about the proposed implementation of the system, you're going to complain about hypothetical bugs?
That's a bit of a reach, don't you think?----
Murray?3 -
MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »So because you can't complain about the proposed implementation of the system, you're going to complain about hypothetical bugs?
That's a bit of a reach, don't you think?
Actually, given more than a decade of MMORPG gaming experience....I can safely say that players WILL find a way to exploit almost anything in an MMO if they think they can.
It's not that much of a stretch to imagine ways this "Justice System" will be(note the use of "will" and not "can") abused.I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.4 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »A few simple rules is all that it would take:
- to be in PvP, you either have to go into a PvP zone, or flag yourself
- no flagged player can affect a non-flagged character in any way, and vice versa
- nobody can be flagged unless they do it on purpose
But the minute they force PvP onto players that don't want to PvP, is the minute the game starts dying.
Strange. That's exactly what the justice system is.
Good. Make it completely optional, with no way to affect players who don't want to PvP, then you are fine.
That's what they're doing. Sounds like they're fine.
Ideally, once you flag yourself, you go into a different "server". But if not, then make sure there is *no* interaction: no talking to, no trading with, no healing, no attacking, no anything, with a player that isn't the same as you. No chance for a stray AOE to activate a PvP flag, or a stray heal.
That way, a player who doesn't want to PvP can never be forced to PvP.
No, no and no.
You can't "accidentally" get flagged for PvP in the justice system. You have to deliberately commit a crime or deliberately flag yourself as a guard. If you do neither of these things, you'll only see the system in action, not participate in it.
So if you are next to some PvP'ing people, and cast an AOE heal, will it flag you too?
No.
They have explicitly stated on the forums that you cannot accidentally flag yourself in the justice system by casting heals or damage.
Yeah , now lets hope it actually works like that.
Cause with zen often is one thing on the paper and another what actually happening.
So because you can't complain about the proposed implementation of the system, you're going to complain about hypothetical bugs?
That's a bit of a reach, don't you think?
I made a complain about a true issue with zen , the fact that their patch notes for example not always actually reflect the changes in the game, the fact that they say that something would work like X , but because of bugs it is like Y.
This is not new , i did not made up the fact that they did fail on these things more than once already.
So people should be ready to what they see at first not be what zen actually wishes it to be.
It might just be bugs allowing things and so on , they should know and be ready to report said things.Edited by Nox_Aeterna on July 26, 2014 11:44PM"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »RedMiniStapler wrote: »smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »You were in a warzone, if the enemy sees you, expect to be attacked and possibly die. I'm certainly not going to stop and worry about whether or not the fight is fair. Especially when everyone has their own arbitrary standards about what is fair. Some people expect you to announce your presence in some way so... I don't know, maybe they feel they are entitled to attack first or prepare or something. Some people think it's unfair if you are higher level, or if you attack them at all.
I'm sorry but ganking and corpse camping are not the same as beating up a small child. That is an absurd analogy. I don't agree with corpse camping (and hope it won't be possible,) but ganking is perfectly fine. Just because you don't announce your presence to the enemy or bring a few more people... that's strategy, not griefing. As a nightblade, that is the entire focus of my class.
yeah, I get your point, it's clear what you think is fair and what I think is fair are totally different, I don't expect people to announce like "I AM ABOUT TO ATTACK YOU! PREPARE TO DIE!" and blow trumpet before attack me, but at least not while I'm in middle of the fight with mobs with my health down.
I figured that NB are like Rogues in wow, which use stealth mode and stun you till you die, another reason why i don't think some fights are fair, and want nothing to do with PvP.
Best solution would be zenimax opening up PvP server, so all you can have open world pvp and do whatever it is you guys do, but since I don't see that happening, I just hope that my "care bear" ass won't have my game disturbed by PvPers.
But why would I wait until you are done with the mobs? No one will do that for me. I don't play fair because I don't expect others to play fair, and as such I am rarely disappointed. I find that pvp seems far less frustrating and upsetting if you don't manufacture rules that make something fair or unfair. Then you don't feel angry when someone doesn't afford you the same courtesy you afford them.
That doesn't mean you should grief or exploit, but you should always play to win, imo. (Though I certainly die plenty.)
Stun in pvp works differently to some degree. If you've stunned mobs before, you might notice that they can still attack, and you have to get that heavy hit in to knock them on their butt. Players aren't going to be as accommodating and sit still while you charge up a heavy attack, so chain stunning someone isn't going to work in the same way. Never mind the billions of ways you can get popped out of cloak. Up to and including a dot you put on another player ticking at the wrong time. It doesn't matter that you are not getting damaged, inexplicably, your dot makes you uncloak.
I feel pvp is, to a great deal, based around cc, and breaking out of cc and moving actively.
***>>>"...manufacture rules that make something fair or unfair."<<<***
Yup. I feel exactly the same way, and additionally it applies to PvE as well.
That >>>>>"...make something fair..." was the whole impetus behind the cries for nerfing the Vet+ 1-10 content INSTEAD of raising rewards, activating a higher grouping e x p bonus and/or adjusting loot...you know, so we could PvE GROUP on the way to endgame.
o-0
Edited by Anastasia on July 27, 2014 12:58AM2 -
Daethz✭✭✭I would only like pvp forcefully thrown into pvp if the consiquences far outweighed the benefits.
Such as troll kill people but lose 500k gold in the process, or have extreme bounties put on you every time you kill someone, idk.Waiting, and watching, for the return of Melee Weapons.
-Subsidiary of The Fighters Guild0 -
cracker81✭✭✭After a month of justice system and criminals losing gold. I sure only a few will be out there.1 -
GasgiantSoul ShrivenPeople like to argue abut acceptable tactics, but in reality (and I know the irony of arguing reality in a virtual environment) some of the dirtiest tactics in the world are practiced by the armies that win. For example I was playing some multiplayer with some friends. I sniped one and let him go into bleed out so some one from his team could combat rez him. When one of my other friends came to help I killed him too. Oddly enough, that is a real sniper tactic. Its been used against our troops and the troops of a multitude of armies since firearms were invented, and probably before with bows and crossbows. I played some Star Wars game of some kind years ago with friends and the only two powers I had and subsequently maxed out was force jump and force push. I didn't even bother taking points in my light-saber or anything else really. My entire tactic involved jumping to the highest point I could find, waiting until someone ran by and force pushing them off into the nearest pitfall. And anyone who knows the architecture of Star Wars knows the Empires love of massive pits in the middle of things and OSHA non compliance with adequate hand railing.
My point was I fought dirty, and my friends fought just as dirty, we were trying to kill each other, and we were all trying to win. We all had fun. Now I also know that not every one would find that fun.2 -
GasgiantSoul ShrivenNow I'm sure this is in a lot of ways off-topic for this thread, but it almost 6am and I took the time to write it, and split it from an earlier post, so I'm darn well going to post it.
Now a days, there must be a clear defining separation between PvP and PvE content. Nothing from one, should ever touch or have an effect on the other. When the two differing play styles meet, that is where all the drama and complaining come in. Especially in a game like ESO where you can't choose between a PvP and PvE server.
Looking at what has already been implemented and what is to be implemented we can already see where this has occurred in ESO.
Skyshards - There are roughly 15 skill points worth of Skyshards in Cyrodill. That might not seem like a lot considering there are roughly a little less than 300ish of them in game. But that is a few short of maxing a crafting profession, or learning that weapon type you wanted. that is 15 points that only PvP players will reliably ever receive. Now a PvE player could enter Cyrodill at off hours and try to sneak in and try and loot them while its emptier. Or they could get a group of sympathetic guildies to help march them through and mitigate the losses. Either are viable, but again, not always reliable solutions.
Achievements - While an optional aspect of the game, for many players it can mean just as much as getting a shiny piece of gear. However there are a half dozen or so that require both PvE and PvP to complete. I could be wrong and if I am, I'm certain some one will correct me. I have never played an MMO that mixed their achievements like that. There would be master or meta achievements that required multiple lesser ones, but they always came from the same source of game-play. The master exploration one came from exploring PvE zones, not PvE zones and all of the arenas/battlefields. This may not seem like much but it leads me into the next aspect.
Upcoming Dye System - All based on achievements. So unless a player was willing to play all aspects of the game, they would effectively be locked out of a number of colors. I have looked online and seen the colors obtained from what achievement. There are plenty of sites displaying it. There are some awesome colors that PvE players will miss out on, especially considering that while some may look quite similar, they are different, and many of the more difficult ones are intended to have iridescent effects.
Upcoming Justice System - There is only so much that has been stated by the developers thus far on this,but one gnawing thought keeps coming back to me. How much will the quest lines of both the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild require the player to utilize the justice system? And like every skill in the game as intended, there are bound to be PvE and PvP uses of the abilities that those groups offer. So then does a PvE player miss out on content with abilities useful to them in the PvE setting because they don't want to risk the PvP consequences of what would predominantly be a PvE quest?
It just seems as though there is a disconnect between how the developers describe the game, and how they choose to implement it. They describe the game as though you can choose to do anything you want to within the context of the game's systems. And technically that is true. But the disconnect in implementation comes in the fact that they seem to fine with producing over arching systems that are reliant on the player engaging in all aspects of the game regardless of weather the player wants to use them or not.5 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Now I'm sure this is in a lot of ways off-topic for this thread, but it almost 6am and I took the time to write it, and split it from an earlier post, so I'm darn well going to post it.
Now a days, there must be a clear defining separation between PvP and PvE content. Nothing from one, should ever touch or have an effect on the other. When the two differing play styles meet, that is where all the drama and complaining come in. Especially in a game like ESO where you can't choose between a PvP and PvE server.
Looking at what has already been implemented and what is to be implemented we can already see where this has occurred in ESO.
Skyshards - There are roughly 15 skill points worth of Skyshards in Cyrodill. That might not seem like a lot considering there are roughly a little less than 300ish of them in game. But that is a few short of maxing a crafting profession, or learning that weapon type you wanted. that is 15 points that only PvP players will reliably ever receive. Now a PvE player could enter Cyrodill at off hours and try to sneak in and try and loot them while its emptier. Or they could get a group of sympathetic guildies to help march them through and mitigate the losses. Either are viable, but again, not always reliable solutions.
Achievements - While an optional aspect of the game, for many players it can mean just as much as getting a shiny piece of gear. However there are a half dozen or so that require both PvE and PvP to complete. I could be wrong and if I am, I'm certain some one will correct me. I have never played an MMO that mixed their achievements like that. There would be master or meta achievements that required multiple lesser ones, but they always came from the same source of game-play. The master exploration one came from exploring PvE zones, not PvE zones and all of the arenas/battlefields. This may not seem like much but it leads me into the next aspect.
Upcoming Dye System - All based on achievements. So unless a player was willing to play all aspects of the game, they would effectively be locked out of a number of colors. I have looked online and seen the colors obtained from what achievement. There are plenty of sites displaying it. There are some awesome colors that PvE players will miss out on, especially considering that while some may look quite similar, they are different, and many of the more difficult ones are intended to have iridescent effects.
Upcoming Justice System - There is only so much that has been stated by the developers thus far on this,but one gnawing thought keeps coming back to me. How much will the quest lines of both the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild require the player to utilize the justice system? And like every skill in the game as intended, there are bound to be PvE and PvP uses of the abilities that those groups offer. So then does a PvE player miss out on content with abilities useful to them in the PvE setting because they don't want to risk the PvP consequences of what would predominantly be a PvE quest?
It just seems as though there is a disconnect between how the developers describe the game, and how they choose to implement it. They describe the game as though you can choose to do anything you want to within the context of the game's systems. And technically that is true. But the disconnect in implementation comes in the fact that they seem to fine with producing over arching systems that are reliant on the player engaging in all aspects of the game regardless of weather the player wants to use them or not.
Insightful and outstanding post Gasgiant.
However, I am not surprised at all really.
My only caveat is for those players who were interested and following it and involved months and years before the game launched, who watched for any quote available from content development, fansite and online media interviews, and the ones involved in the official Beta -- it was fairly clear interaction between PvE and PvP would be occurring in TESO in modest amounts.
Most of us could easily see that someone (*or more-than-one someones) within this games' design structure who had authority most DEFINITELY planned/wanted/yearned for some interweaving, some amount of co-habitation/action within PvE for PvPrs and within PvP for PvErs.
While they did provide at launch a separate core environment, steps they are heading toward now in I'd say, very small increments, is supportive of the teams interest in continuing to have a little cross-over. The merit of that can continue to be discussed, and calls for radical changes to it will probs be made, but there ya go.
It really is not something we did not recognize or 'see' coming all along. It is another one of the 'unique' visions this games' creators planned.
Edited by Anastasia on July 27, 2014 1:42PM2 -
grimjim398✭✭✭If a PvE player chooses not to play in PvP at all, ever, how can he or she expect to reap the rewards that are there for PvP players? To expect anything else makes no sense.
While I don't think PvE players should be forced into fighting other players, I disagree that there needs to be some absolute boundary between them. This would eventually harm the game. PvE people will eventually go through all the content and get tired of the game. The developers can't make enough content to keep the game fresh. Players have to make some of the content for an MMO themselves. Like it or not, that's where PvP comes in.2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As mentioned earlier, PvE players aren't "forced" to take part in a PvP system. You don't want to be attackable by other players? Don't get caught. Simple solution for a non-problem.
And I've always wondered about this "dilemma" other PvE players claim to have. I primarily play PvE content, but if I get killed by another player because I got caught committing a crime, oh well. I'll just resurrect and consider the whopping five seconds of playtime I just lost as a lesson learned. What's the real issue here?----
Murray?2 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭grimjim398 wrote: »If a PvE player chooses not to play in PvP at all, ever, how can he or she expect to reap the rewards that are there for PvP players? To expect anything else makes no sense.
While I don't think PvE players should be forced into fighting other players, I disagree that there needs to be some absolute boundary between them. This would eventually harm the game. PvE people will eventually go through all the content and get tired of the game. The developers can't make enough content to keep the game fresh. Players have to make some of the content for an MMO themselves. Like it or not, that's where PvP comes in.
Don't forget; some of the people playing pve have been playing Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim since release. Some of them without mods. Not everyone skips dialogue, ignores the stories, and grinds monsters to level. Eventually, perhaps, people will make it through all the content, but you're working with the idea that none of the new content updates will add pve material. That might not work that way.
If people get forced into playing the way they DON'T want to play, new content will be a moot point; they'll have left long before.
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theyancey✭✭✭✭✭
✭grimjim398 wrote: »If a PvE player chooses not to play in PvP at all, ever, how can he or she expect to reap the rewards that are there for PvP players? To expect anything else makes no sense.
While I don't think PvE players should be forced into fighting other players, I disagree that there needs to be some absolute boundary between them. This would eventually harm the game. PvE people will eventually go through all the content and get tired of the game. The developers can't make enough content to keep the game fresh. Players have to make some of the content for an MMO themselves. Like it or not, that's where PvP comes in.
I disagree. We are paying subs so that the devs WILL make that content to keep us in the game. I do agree that they need to offer paths to the solo PvE crowd that lead to an equal number of skill and achievement points however.
I have a possible solution as to boundary. It is not absolute but could keep PvE/PvP conflict to a minimum. ZOS already has an internal grouping program in the mega server that attempts to put friends and guildies in the same shards. Supposedly it is being made more robust in the coming update. The same rule set could be applied to those interested in the justice system, AKA world PvP lite. If you click to opt in to that, say on a monthly timer, then the server mostly puts you in shards with others so inclined. Those not so interested in having thefts and assassinations going down around them all of the time would mostly be spared from such.
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xChewtoyx✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »No.
They have explicitly stated on the forums that you cannot accidentally flag yourself in the justice system by casting heals or damage.
That is all well and good but there are still a lot of unanswered questions about how they are going to implement this.
If healing a criminal/guard does not flag you then will heals from a non-flagged person work on a flagged person at all?
How will buffs between flagged and non-flagged work?
How will the flagging system work?
For example would it be possible for me to wait for a few npc guards to beat down a criminal and then flag myself as a guard and jump in to finish him off?
Or, as a flagged criminal could I lure a guard into a pack of my buddies who then flag themselves and roflstomp the guard?
I really am not concerned myself whether they allow pvp in pve zones or not, but I think that if they try and mix pvp into a pve area then griefers will figure a way out to abuse it.
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ZOS_TristanK✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just as a friendly reminder, we welcome feedback and suggestions about current and future ESO mechanics. We know that our players will not always agree with one another about their suggestions, and in fact find a lot of value in reading constructive, civil debates. As such, we encourage players to be mindful of our forum Code of Conduct . When participating in debates here, please be sure to do so in a respectful manner by not resorting to personal attacks or actively encouraging players to move to a different game that already has the mechanics they're proposing.0 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Attacking someone on a mount isn't ganking them. And while a fully decked-out VR12 can kill a lower-level player in Cyrodiil quite easily, it isn't ganking either. Cyrodiil scales players' attributes up, so ganking isn't truly possible. That said, a true "gank" in MMO terminology is when a high-to-max level character deliberately targets low-level characters in order to have no challenge when killing them.
On topic: I guess you'll have to be more careful with your AoE abilities. There's no reason for you to be using them in town in the first place, and if your fingers are really that slippery, just re-bind your ultimate key. That's the only key I can envision someone actually hitting by mistake under the default keybinds.
I'm not going to argue over a definition or a word. There is no officially recognized gaming dictionary. Most people will still say that they're "ganking" or setting up a "gank squad" when sneaking with their friends in Cyrodiil to ambush solo'ers. Call it what you want.
Don't think I'm the only one that accidentally hits the wrong hotkey. Mostly due to game being unresponsive. Other reason is hand positioning, while having coffee or talking on the phone. While I never drop ultimates all over the banker, I might very well hit a normal AoE skill or a light attack inside a town by accident.
Some of us are more distracted, impatient or tired than others. We hit the wrong keys. We also make irrational mistakes in videogames. It's human nature, even if that might be hard to understand for someone like yourself, that apparently never suffers from human gaming errors?
No one should have to walk on glass in towns, scared to attack npc's by accidents or get dragged into PvP. What happens if I use a raid buff like Rapid Manoeuvre and it buffs player/guard fighting? They have to look over these thing before the system goes live. I'm I really being unreasonable?
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »No.
They have explicitly stated on the forums that you cannot accidentally flag yourself in the justice system by casting heals or damage.
That is all well and good but there are still a lot of unanswered questions about how they are going to implement this.
If healing a criminal/guard does not flag you then will heals from a non-flagged person work on a flagged person at all?
How will buffs between flagged and non-flagged work?
How will the flagging system work?
For example would it be possible for me to wait for a few npc guards to beat down a criminal and then flag myself as a guard and jump in to finish him off?
Or, as a flagged criminal could I lure a guard into a pack of my buddies who then flag themselves and roflstomp the guard?
I really am not concerned myself whether they allow pvp in pve zones or not, but I think that if they try and mix pvp into a pve area then griefers will figure a way out to abuse it.
We don't know the specifics yet, but they've been very clear about saying that you can't accidentally flag yourself. Period. No exceptions.
As for your "nightmare scenarios," neither of those work in the system as described. Guards can't stay hidden and randomly flag themselves, and unless all your criminal buddies were hanging out in a guarded area to commit crimes all at the same time, they can't magically flag themselves and become a hidden ambush.nerevarine1138 wrote: »Attacking someone on a mount isn't ganking them. And while a fully decked-out VR12 can kill a lower-level player in Cyrodiil quite easily, it isn't ganking either. Cyrodiil scales players' attributes up, so ganking isn't truly possible. That said, a true "gank" in MMO terminology is when a high-to-max level character deliberately targets low-level characters in order to have no challenge when killing them.
On topic: I guess you'll have to be more careful with your AoE abilities. There's no reason for you to be using them in town in the first place, and if your fingers are really that slippery, just re-bind your ultimate key. That's the only key I can envision someone actually hitting by mistake under the default keybinds.
I'm not going to argue over a definition or a word. There is no officially recognized gaming dictionary. Most people will still say that they're "ganking" or setting up a "gank squad" when sneaking with their friends in Cyrodiil to ambush solo'ers. Call it what you want.
Don't think I'm the only one that accidentally hits the wrong hotkey. Mostly due to game being unresponsive. Other reason is hand positioning, while having coffee or talking on the phone. While I never drop ultimates all over the banker, I might very well hit a normal AoE skill or a light attack inside a town by accident.
Some of us are more distracted, impatient or tired than others. We hit the wrong keys. We also make irrational mistakes in videogames. It's human nature, even if that might be hard to understand for someone like yourself, that apparently never suffers from human gaming errors?
No one should have to walk on glass in towns, scared to attack npc's by accidents or get dragged into PvP. What happens if I use a raid buff like Rapid Manoeuvre and it buffs player/guard fighting? They have to look over these thing before the system goes live. I'm I really being unreasonable?
Actually, there are gaming dictionaries of sorts: http://www.wowwiki.com/Gank
That said, you'll just have to be more careful with your fingers or re-bind your keys if your fingers are slipping that much. That's not something the developers should be taking in to account when they design the system. I don't currently "walk on glass" in towns, and I have yet to hit my attack keys accidentally. I appreciate that some people may be unreasonably clumsy or impatient, but that's their problem. We already have an official post stating that casting a buff/heal in town will not be able to flag you in the system.----
Murray?3 -
Robotukas✭✭✭
PvP in PvE is PvP. Why just don't say to make whole server PvP. Where no PvP in PvE. Its only are two probabilities PvP or PvE.3 -
grimjim398✭✭✭grimjim398 wrote: »If a PvE player chooses not to play in PvP at all, ever, how can he or she expect to reap the rewards that are there for PvP players? To expect anything else makes no sense.
While I don't think PvE players should be forced into fighting other players, I disagree that there needs to be some absolute boundary between them. This would eventually harm the game. PvE people will eventually go through all the content and get tired of the game. The developers can't make enough content to keep the game fresh. Players have to make some of the content for an MMO themselves. Like it or not, that's where PvP comes in.
Don't forget; some of the people playing pve have been playing Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim since release. Some of them without mods. Not everyone skips dialogue, ignores the stories, and grinds monsters to level. Eventually, perhaps, people will make it through all the content, but you're working with the idea that none of the new content updates will add pve material. That might not work that way.
If people get forced into playing the way they DON'T want to play, new content will be a moot point; they'll have left long before.
I'm not actually working with the idea that there won't be any new PVE content at all; I strongly suspect there will be. I'm simply saying that PVE content that is quest-based takes much more time to develop than it does to play. There are many more man-hours involved in making a quest than there are in even the slowest play-through.
There are people who play like you do, very slowly and patiently, and I am one of those. But even we will eventually tire of the same quests. Even though I like to play the same content over and over, finding new stuff in it, I will eventually move on to another game that's new. That's my point. But if the developers take steps that allow players to provide content, then this game will stay fresh for much longer. I did not like the idea of the Justice System at first but then I realized it has the potential to make the cities look very lively.
I understand people feel the need to speak out about the issue of forced PvP, but it appears to me that ZOS understands that issue very well. The people who are the most adamant about keeping PvE totally separate from PvP are not going to like the Justice System no matter what. I expect ZOS knows that, too. But they've told us it's coming, which means they've made their decision and they are going to take the risk. I will stay around to see what happens with it with an open mind.
P.S from later: New content for the game will not be a moot point for the people who remain in the game, and, in the end, they are going to be the ones who matter, like it or not.Edited by grimjim398 on July 27, 2014 5:10PM3 -
grimjim398✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »nerevarine1138 wrote: »No.
They have explicitly stated on the forums that you cannot accidentally flag yourself in the justice system by casting heals or damage.
That is all well and good but there are still a lot of unanswered questions about how they are going to implement this.
If healing a criminal/guard does not flag you then will heals from a non-flagged person work on a flagged person at all?
How will buffs between flagged and non-flagged work?
How will the flagging system work?
For example would it be possible for me to wait for a few npc guards to beat down a criminal and then flag myself as a guard and jump in to finish him off?
Or, as a flagged criminal could I lure a guard into a pack of my buddies who then flag themselves and roflstomp the guard?
I really am not concerned myself whether they allow pvp in pve zones or not, but I think that if they try and mix pvp into a pve area then griefers will figure a way out to abuse it.
We don't know the specifics yet, but they've been very clear about saying that you can't accidentally flag yourself. Period. No exceptions.
As for your "nightmare scenarios," neither of those work in the system as described. Guards can't stay hidden and randomly flag themselves, and unless all your criminal buddies were hanging out in a guarded area to commit crimes all at the same time, they can't magically flag themselves and become a hidden ambush.nerevarine1138 wrote: »Attacking someone on a mount isn't ganking them. And while a fully decked-out VR12 can kill a lower-level player in Cyrodiil quite easily, it isn't ganking either. Cyrodiil scales players' attributes up, so ganking isn't truly possible. That said, a true "gank" in MMO terminology is when a high-to-max level character deliberately targets low-level characters in order to have no challenge when killing them.
On topic: I guess you'll have to be more careful with your AoE abilities. There's no reason for you to be using them in town in the first place, and if your fingers are really that slippery, just re-bind your ultimate key. That's the only key I can envision someone actually hitting by mistake under the default keybinds.
I'm not going to argue over a definition or a word. There is no officially recognized gaming dictionary. Most people will still say that they're "ganking" or setting up a "gank squad" when sneaking with their friends in Cyrodiil to ambush solo'ers. Call it what you want.
Don't think I'm the only one that accidentally hits the wrong hotkey. Mostly due to game being unresponsive. Other reason is hand positioning, while having coffee or talking on the phone. While I never drop ultimates all over the banker, I might very well hit a normal AoE skill or a light attack inside a town by accident.
Some of us are more distracted, impatient or tired than others. We hit the wrong keys. We also make irrational mistakes in videogames. It's human nature, even if that might be hard to understand for someone like yourself, that apparently never suffers from human gaming errors?
No one should have to walk on glass in towns, scared to attack npc's by accidents or get dragged into PvP. What happens if I use a raid buff like Rapid Manoeuvre and it buffs player/guard fighting? They have to look over these thing before the system goes live. I'm I really being unreasonable?
Actually, there are gaming dictionaries of sorts: http://www.wowwiki.com/Gank
That said, you'll just have to be more careful with your fingers or re-bind your keys if your fingers are slipping that much. That's not something the developers should be taking in to account when they design the system. I don't currently "walk on glass" in towns, and I have yet to hit my attack keys accidentally. I appreciate that some people may be unreasonably clumsy or impatient, but that's their problem. We already have an official post stating that casting a buff/heal in town will not be able to flag you in the system.
Eve Online developed a "safety" button that gives a player a warning when he/she is about to do something that will cause PvP engagement. Something similar could easily be developed for the Justice System.1
