Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.

Bookwyrm

It's been said, but I'm going to vote the following: PvP in PvE areas should be limited to an Arena situation or duels. I don't dislike PvP, in fact it's a lot of fun, but griefers ruin it for everyone (except griefers).

Not to mention, I enjoy being able to go AFK when necessary without having someone run up and kill my character without my being able to fight back. Sure, I could log out, but then I have to go back through log-in and all that nonsense when all I really needed was to answer the phone.

Anastasia

Bookwyrm wrote: »

It's been said, but I'm going to vote the following: PvP in PvE areas should be limited to an Arena situation or duels. I don't dislike PvP, in fact it's a lot of fun, but griefers ruin it for everyone (except griefers).

Not to mention, I enjoy being able to go AFK when necessary without having someone run up and kill my character without my being able to fight back. Sure, I could log out, but then I have to go back through log-in and all that nonsense when all I really needed was to answer the phone.

---

Agreed on potential griefing scenarios, of which, I'm not certain we can hold ZOS responsible for being able to prevent all of heh.

But, logging back in takes you how long? Its super fast, really.

I must admit, I just cannot grasp the need for speed while not in a fight or questing situation especially. Why is speed the premium that everyone grapples for? Appropriate justification for some content, but for making sure you aren't ganked/remain safe in a potentially dangerous area, if that indeed is an issue???????????????????????

nerevarine1138

Bookwyrm wrote: »

It's been said, but I'm going to vote the following: PvP in PvE areas should be limited to an Arena situation or duels. I don't dislike PvP, in fact it's a lot of fun, but griefers ruin it for everyone (except griefers).

Not to mention, I enjoy being able to go AFK when necessary without having someone run up and kill my character without my being able to fight back. Sure, I could log out, but then I have to go back through log-in and all that nonsense when all I really needed was to answer the phone.

And the justice system does not allow for griefing or the the situation you described. Unless you decided to go AFK immediately after committing a crime.

Bookwyrm

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Bookwyrm wrote: »

It's been said, but I'm going to vote the following: PvP in PvE areas should be limited to an Arena situation or duels. I don't dislike PvP, in fact it's a lot of fun, but griefers ruin it for everyone (except griefers).

Not to mention, I enjoy being able to go AFK when necessary without having someone run up and kill my character without my being able to fight back. Sure, I could log out, but then I have to go back through log-in and all that nonsense when all I really needed was to answer the phone.

And the justice system does not allow for griefing or the the situation you described. Unless you decided to go AFK immediately after committing a crime.

Oh I'm sorry, there may have been a misunderstanding--or at least slightly--in my comment. I am not opposed to PvP in the way the Justice System is currently being worked on, in the way it is soon to be implemented. Players killing NPCs or committing a crime and then being flagged for PvP? I'm cool with that. Completely. I think it sounds like a blast.

I meant PvP in the sense that the OP was discussing. I don't want to be minding my own business, and then have another player whose made it their business to get up in mine kill me for no reason. Mostly because it's annoying.

As per the "how long does it take to get logged in" question posted before you, it's true it doesn't really take long. But it's another annoyance, and sometimes load times can actually take quite a while. And my load times are longest when logging into a toon. Plus, the 10 seconds it takes to log out could be about all the time I need to run to the phone and pick it up--maybe 20 seconds. Why bother? It just seems like an unnecessary step.

xChewtoyx

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

We don't know the specifics yet, but they've been very clear about saying that you can't accidentally flag yourself. Period. No exceptions.

As for your "nightmare scenarios," neither of those work in the system as described. Guards can't stay hidden and randomly flag themselves, and unless all your criminal buddies were hanging out in a guarded area to commit crimes all at the same time, they can't magically flag themselves and become a hidden ambush.

I wasn't commenting on accidently flagging yourself I was commenting on whether or not you could assist someone who was flagged without doing so.

If as you say those "nightmare scenarios" cant happen then what information did you use to arrive at that conclusion?
I can't find anything about the flagging process. Can you be so kind as to link what you used to base your opinion on?

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

the healing things is going to be a potential problem

I don't know if any of you ever played EQ on Vallon Zek, but it was a team pvp server, several racially based factions. So at first everyone cared about their rep and it was all good. Then some people from differing factions got together (or more specifically, people made alts in other factions.) So you can't attack your own side, but you could target and heal the other side. Let's say your playing a bad guy (dark elves, trolls, and ogres) and you are beating up on a high elf. Suddenly a dark elf shows up and starts healing that high elf. But you can't hurt the dark elf.

That became so prevalent that the server just devolved into crossteaming everywhere and eventually they merged all the zek servers into one just open pvp server when they merged a ton of other servers.

EQ didn't put a lot of effort into balancing pvp mind you, they even had a server, sullon zek that was basically a no rules server that was pretty much the sewer of the zeks.

So this can result in a few different things, 1) only guards can help guards, and criminals help criminals 2) people that you can't attack and prevent from helping your enemy can just drop a heal or buff on them (though with how heals work, it is just as likely to hit you I think, but I'm sure people will find a way to make this work) or if you heal one side or the other it makes you open pvp briefly to the other side.

I am hoping it's the last option. The other two are far more problematic. I realize it will ruffle some pve feathers, but you guys would be right there healing your friends while remaining invincible otherwise.

If you are healing someone trying to kill me, it seems reasonable that I should be able to take you out, don't you think?

It's the heals and buffs that are the problem. Until you become open pvp, aes can just not hit criminals/guards whatever. But if you heal one of us, you need to be attackable.

Now I know it probably infuriates some of you pve'rs and will result in a lot of tables being flipped at the very thought. I am aware that healing is really random atm and that probably needs to be looked at for this. But I imagine, were you fighting a tough npc, and someone was able to run up and start buffing and healing the mob, you would want the option to be able to take them out as well. (or get a pvp friend to take them out, whatever works)

xChewtoyx

Snip

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

the healing things is going to be a potential problem

That's what I'm wondering about

Editing to say that I think if you have the ability to heal or buff a flagged player then you should be flagged. With the way heals work I don't know how you could do that seeing as you could potentially heal both guard and criminal at the same time.
I think it would be better if they just disabled the ability to heal/buff flagged players entirely unless you were flagged as well

yarnevk

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As mentioned earlier, PvE players aren't "forced" to take part in a PvP system. You don't want to be attackable by other players? Don't get caught. Simple solution for a non-problem.

Dont steal anything or kill anything? Means no PVE player can play thieves guild or assassins guild because it means getting flagged for PVP, depriving the entire PVE population of the most popular TES guildplay. It means nobody can loot towns looking for purples they need on their crafter as it means getting flagged for PVP, considering I am always broke when I am in town having paid the banker/bagger gold sink and have no fine money. Means griefers can run mobs up to me standing by an NPC and force me to do a panic kill. I call those forced choices. The only choice should be did I login for PVP, not something that I risk when I only want a PVE playstyle. You most certainly are hoping people will end up in that forced choice accidently, otherwise you would be supporting PVP only as a login opt-in choice so that you truly are engaging in PVP with those who wanted to be in PVP.

cracker81

Then don't join those 2 guilds, don't steal, and don't kill Npc. Carry on citizen and have a great day.

TehMagnus

yarnevk wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As mentioned earlier, PvE players aren't "forced" to take part in a PvP system. You don't want to be attackable by other players? Don't get caught. Simple solution for a non-problem.

Dont steal anything or kill anything? Means no PVE player can play thieves guild or assassins guild because it means getting flagged for PVP, depriving the entire PVE population of the most popular TES guildplay. It means nobody can loot towns looking for purples they need on their crafter as it means getting flagged for PVP, considering I am always broke when I am in town having paid the banker/bagger gold sink and have no fine money. Means griefers can run mobs up to me standing by an NPC and force me to do a panic kill. I call those forced choices. The only choice should be did I login for PVP, not something that I risk when I only want a PVE playstyle. You most certainly are hoping people will end up in that forced choice accidently, otherwise you would be supporting PVP only as a login opt-in choice so that you truly are engaging in PVP with those who wanted to be in PVP.

Disagree. First of all, you gotta tell me what towns spawn purples in containers since I've never seen this.

Secondly, most people that do container runs are people farming for materials and people farming for motifs. They do so by abusing the system since they login and logout to make containers refill <= ZOS wont cry for those people's loss.

If you want materials (the way you should be getting them), you can still loot dungeons & world areas that are outside towns.

PVP is not forced upon you since stealing (no talk about assassin's guild atm so it's useless to speculate on it), doesn't lead 100% of the time to PVP. It only does if you get caught so PVP is not forced upon you, it's the result of your failure. If you do get caught, players helping guards can be interpreted as NPC with good AI and stronk skills.

In any case, if you do get caught & killed, you will just press R & respawn at wayshrine with your bounty most likely gone, just like when you get killed by mobs in the world. Just get naked when you steal if you're weak and don't want to fight guards and you wont even have repair costs to pay.

Keep in mind that if players can't be guards, ZOS will prolly make guards hurt as much as PVP guards since the aim is to make stealing dangerous. If you think being 3shot by an NPC Archer is more enjoyable than actually having a fighting chance vs an other player....

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

yarnevk wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As mentioned earlier, PvE players aren't "forced" to take part in a PvP system. You don't want to be attackable by other players? Don't get caught. Simple solution for a non-problem.

Dont steal anything or kill anything? Means no PVE player can play thieves guild or assassins guild because it means getting flagged for PVP, depriving the entire PVE population of the most popular TES guildplay. It means nobody can loot towns looking for purples they need on their crafter as it means getting flagged for PVP, considering I am always broke when I am in town having paid the banker/bagger gold sink and have no fine money. Means griefers can run mobs up to me standing by an NPC and force me to do a panic kill. I call those forced choices. The only choice should be did I login for PVP, not something that I risk when I only want a PVE playstyle. You most certainly are hoping people will end up in that forced choice accidently, otherwise you would be supporting PVP only as a login opt-in choice so that you truly are engaging in PVP with those who wanted to be in PVP.

Disagree. First of all, you gotta tell me what towns spawn purples in containers since I've never seen this..

Given ZOS has clearly stated they KNOW this is an issue and that they'll deal with it before the Justice system is released it's not surprising you haven't seen any changes yet: why are you prattling on about it at the moment?

TehMagnus

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Given ZOS has clearly stated they KNOW this is an issue and that they'll deal with it before the Justice system is released it's not surprising you haven't seen any changes yet: why are you prattling on about it at the moment?

Not being able to loot purples from containers is an issue? LOL

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

magnusnet wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Given ZOS has clearly stated they KNOW this is an issue and that they'll deal with it before the Justice system is released it's not surprising you haven't seen any changes yet: why are you prattling on about it at the moment?

Not being able to loot purples from containers is an issue? LOL

The word issue had a meaning long before M$ used it as an obfuscation for bug, I used it in the real sense of the word dealing with the problem of looting containers when Justice comes in, which is the whole pointless prattle this part of the thread is about.

Mordria

No. The game already has PVP - Cyrodiil.

TehMagnus

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Given ZOS has clearly stated they KNOW this is an issue and that they'll deal with it before the Justice system is released it's not surprising you haven't seen any changes yet: why are you prattling on about it at the moment?

Not being able to loot purples from containers is an issue? LOL

The word issue had a meaning long before M$ used it as an obfuscation for bug, I used it in the real sense of the word dealing with the problem of looting containers when Justice comes in, which is the whole pointless prattle this part of the thread is about.

Well I don't see the problem, containers will still be lootable .

theyancey

Having to play ESO with the PvP types that post in these forums around me would greatly diminish my enjoyment of the game. I'm afraid that it will make wandering around a town as peacefully interesting as a crowded bank. The same skeevers will be trying to bother other players outside as they do now inside. I think that it has the potential of completely breaking the game for many.

How badly will it impact my enjoyment? I don't think that any of us can say yet. It concerns me enough that I switched my sub renewal in November from six months to monthly. Time will tell.

nerevarine1138

yarnevk wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As mentioned earlier, PvE players aren't "forced" to take part in a PvP system. You don't want to be attackable by other players? Don't get caught. Simple solution for a non-problem.

Dont steal anything or kill anything? Means no PVE player can play thieves guild or assassins guild because it means getting flagged for PVP, depriving the entire PVE population of the most popular TES guildplay. It means nobody can loot towns looking for purples they need on their crafter as it means getting flagged for PVP, considering I am always broke when I am in town having paid the banker/bagger gold sink and have no fine money. Means griefers can run mobs up to me standing by an NPC and force me to do a panic kill. I call those forced choices. The only choice should be did I login for PVP, not something that I risk when I only want a PVE playstyle. You most certainly are hoping people will end up in that forced choice accidently, otherwise you would be supporting PVP only as a login opt-in choice so that you truly are engaging in PVP with those who wanted to be in PVP.

I didn't say don't steal or kill anything. I said don't get caught. Big difference. As others have mentioned, there are plenty of containers that won't be flagged for stealing. Will you have a more limited selection than people willing to risk paying fines or dying? Yes. But that's life.

And please, people. Just stop it with the non-existent "griefing" scenarios. No one can force you to flag yourself in the new system. No one. I have no idea how/where anyone would be able to run an enemy to you that you would be "forced" to panic-kill. For one thing, there aren't enemies that close to town. And more importantly, running an enemy near someone doesn't do anything. You don't have to kill them. They won't attack you if you aren't doing anything to them. And to respond to another post: people can't just hang around town "making trouble" for you if you aren't participating in the system. If you don't want to be flagged as a criminal, don't get caught committing crimes. If you don't want to be a guard, don't be a guard. It's really that simple.

nerevarine1138

xChewtoyx wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

We don't know the specifics yet, but they've been very clear about saying that you can't accidentally flag yourself. Period. No exceptions.

As for your "nightmare scenarios," neither of those work in the system as described. Guards can't stay hidden and randomly flag themselves, and unless all your criminal buddies were hanging out in a guarded area to commit crimes all at the same time, they can't magically flag themselves and become a hidden ambush.

I wasn't commenting on accidently flagging yourself I was commenting on whether or not you could assist someone who was flagged without doing so.

If as you say those "nightmare scenarios" cant happen then what information did you use to arrive at that conclusion?
I can't find anything about the flagging process. Can you be so kind as to link what you used to base your opinion on?

Here's the official quotation (emphasis mine):

At QuakeCon, Paul Sage discussed the work being done on the in-development justice system, including the possibility of hunting down players who have a bounty. Only players who have chosen to participate in the activity of thievery will have a bounty on them, and be attackable, and only if you are a guard.

While certain activities may open you up to PvP outside of Cyrodiil, we are not considering world PvP.

So unless you have chosen to participate in a criminal act or flagged yourself as a guard, you will not be attackable. That's pretty black and white. Although I'm sure you'll find some kind of "loophole" in there, since you've managed to ignore every post prior to this explaining that you can't get flagged any other way.

Amylar

We should be able to kill the (future) all pink dressed players...

Bad taste can be a crime !

Delith

This game NEEDS this suggestion, or it is going to die way before it should.

TES is about freedom. If you keep coddling your playerbase, they will leave.

You may not be able to tell from this thread, but the truth of the matter is people don't know what is good for them. This game is going to bleed players like CRAZY when the sandbox games start dropping in the next year.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Delith wrote: »

This game is going to bleed players like CRAZY when the sandbox games start dropping in the next year.

Unlikely.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

theyancey wrote: »

Having to play ESO with the PvP types that post in these forums around me would greatly diminish my enjoyment of the game. I'm afraid that it will make wandering around a town as peacefully interesting as a crowded bank. The same skeevers will be trying to bother other players outside as they do now inside. I think that it has the potential of completely breaking the game for many.

How badly will it impact my enjoyment? I don't think that any of us can say yet. It concerns me enough that I switched my sub renewal in November from six months to monthly. Time will tell.

It's stuff like that that makes us call you carebears and hope for true world pvp so we can pk you at will.

You get all mad when you get insulted but drop insults yourself like it's just fact.

You are not the center of the universe.

yarnevk

Every game that has PVP with PVE 'safe' zones in town high security areas, has a problem with griefers trapping people into PVP, finding ways to exploit and even hack the rules. Nobody cares if 99.9% of PVPers say they would never do this and it will rarely happen, the fact that you are on a megaserver means there is a thousand griefers running around doing it. Just like the minority of players that was botting could not be controlled by admins until they changed the login process, the admins will not be able to control the griefers. The examples given are taken from those games that use PVP flagging rules, they are not made up impossibilities. Cyrodil players are still complaining about hackers and one only need to do a google search for how to do it.

Many people want to play as a PVE criminal and not have to deal with PVP players. They are more than happy to deal with a PVE guard and prison, as the criminal guilds have been some of the most wanted features missing that was in past TES games, which includes the risk of getting caught. The fact is the PVPers that have no intent to grief will get what they want if the system is a PVP opt-in at login. Only those who have intent on trolling will continue to insist that PVE players who do not desire PVP in their game be part of the Justice-PVP system. Make a Justice-PVP system and a Justice-PVE system selected on login and everyone gets what they want except for griefers.

It will be very easy for a griefer to flag themselves for PVP and run around town with a posse of guards on the attack bringing them by the crafters snooping in the barrels so that innocent PC gets flagged for guard murder when they panic react. More than likely those will be player guards that are their friends that know not to kill the troll so that they can soon all be killing PVE players. This type of trolling the mobs is already happening in ESO in dungeons with griefers taking advantage of the fact that most players do not know the aggro is not on them sothat they will attack and die from being overwhelmed by mobs. So those griefers are simply going to move to towns where more people are as soon as the Justice-PVP system is in place. Such a thing cannot happen if there is a Justice-PVE login because PVP would never appear in their instance.

No need for dire predictions about the lack of world PVP bleeding players, these are predictions from someone cannot even recognize they are posting in poll threads that they are not even 10% of the ESO player base. PVP open world games have the highest turnover rate of any game genre out there, and MMOs that offer PVP login zones know they cater to a fraction of the player base. So enough with the world is going to end nonsense if this game does not add open world PVP, when PVPers could simply get what they want by asking for a Justice-PVP login which will allow them to freely PVP all over Tamriel even within their own alliance.

TehMagnus

yarnevk wrote: »

No need for dire predictions about the lack of world PVP bleeding players, these are predictions from someone cannot even recognize they are posting in poll threads that they are 10% of the ESO player base. PVP open world games have the highest turnover rate of any game genre out there, and mainstream MMOs that offer PVP login zones know they cater to a fraction of the player base. So enough with the world is going to end nonsense if this game does not add open world PVP, nobody is buying that desperate argument.

Just as much as nobody is buying the argument "I'm fine being hunted by NPC guards but not by other players, because that's PVP."

The only logical reason for this is thinking that fighting an NPC is actually easier than fighting a player. Paul Sage clearly said that they want players to be guards so that people can't find ways to circumvent or exploit the guard NPCs and to make stealing dangerous this is why there will not be a PVE justice system implemented as you suggest.

And even if there was, It's likely most guards will be VR5 like in PVP and 3 shot most of the players, then you will have people complaining that PVE is too hard and that stealing should be easier because in the end that's what they want, an easy game without challenge...

As for 10% only posting on these forums, you're right, and I bet they don't represent the majority of TES fans that will embrace this awesome Justice System.

As for griefers finding ways to exploit and kill people, it has been an issue in many games and it has been solved in many games with PVP in PVE areas without loosing players and without destroying the game. As for boting, there was a report option that worked and there will still be an option to report griefers/exploiters and get them banned.

yarnevk

That response is silly, PVE and PVP players fight hard NPCs all the time why would they not want to fight a NPC guard. PVE players are opposed to PC guards for the simple reason that PVP players always bring the griefing minority with them that is intent on disrupting their PVE play. PVE players may have already tried out a PVP game and quit those games for those reasons, or maybe they just came back from war and are done with fighting people even in games because of PTSD and only feel safe if it is PVE, or maybe they have moral/ethical reasons they learned from parents that fighting is wrong. You do not need to challenge their reasons whatever they are for not wanting to fight other players, they already made their choice to stay out of Cyrodil, so you need to allow them their choice to play a Justice-PVE. That is not for you to judge and tell them to get over it and they have to play a Justice-PVP.

Your posts are not even worth commenting on if you truly think that report player was responsible for getting rid of bots and will be effective in getting rid of griefers. That has never worked in any MMO anywhere. What got rid of most bots was not the show the admins put on of public bot killling, it was the login alt changes. Login controls are very effective and why a Justice-PVE and Justice-PVP will make everyone happy except the trolls, makes one wonder why you would argue against that.

TehMagnus

Well if they don't want to fight other players, just as they don't join PVP in Cyrodill, they should not steal in towns from NPCs .

yarnevk

And deny them the roleplaying of being a criminal? Despite the popular standard RPG fantasy triad of fighter, mage, rogue you say they can only play a fighter or mage if they don't want to get involve in PVP? Especially in TES which has had popular PVE thieves and assassin guilds for decades? People want to play criminals and have the option of not having to PVP, that can be done with a login choice of which Justice system you want to play. Why would you be against letting them have that choice of being the sneaky type, there is no need to force choice them into PVP if they chose to be sneaky. Yes people also want to roleplay murderers and for the same reason the theives/assassin guilds in ESO will only be against NPC because it will victimize PC to do otherwise, your murdering sprees need to be only against those that consent to PVP. And if the thieves/assassin guilds expand to PC victims so more than guards can PVP, I am all for it as long as it is under a PVP login where everybody consents without forced choice. By having a Justice-PVP and a Justice-PVE login the system can be better for both types of players.

Halorin

Some people never set foot in Cyrodiil because they have no interest in PvP. It would not be fair or right to infringe on their preferred gameplay by letting players who thrive on ganking unsuspecting players disrupt their time in the game.

When you go into Cyrodiil, it's implied and expected that you could get attacked any moment by players or NPCs. You take the action to expose yourself to PvP. In the upcoming justice system, you accept that a consequence of your stealing and killing NPCs you could be attacked by other players. You accept it as well when you voluntarily sign up as a guard.

The players that never want to PvP should not have to be exposed to that sort of gameplay if they don't want to. Just as the developers would never turn Cyrodiil into a PVE-only option, the game should allow players to play how they want in more ways than just character building.

Open world PvP in PvE zones would require a shift in tactics all around. Some morphs and skills lend themselves to PvP more than PvE. Some players, who pay 15 dollars a month like anyone else, want to just log in, run some quests, do some questing, and log off. You disrupt their play experience and they'll leave the game.

In my opinion, whoever wants to create completely open world PvP in a game that did not feature it as an initial selling point just wants to gank people who are at a disadvantage and it speaks to the deficiencies in their character as human beings. Stop trying to turn people who just want to enjoy the game into your short term attempts at feeling better about yourself by attacking people who don't expect it and don't want to deal with you.

Go fight people who want to fight other people.

Halorin

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

Having to play ESO with the PvP types that post in these forums around me would greatly diminish my enjoyment of the game. I'm afraid that it will make wandering around a town as peacefully interesting as a crowded bank. The same skeevers will be trying to bother other players outside as they do now inside. I think that it has the potential of completely breaking the game for many.

How badly will it impact my enjoyment? I don't think that any of us can say yet. It concerns me enough that I switched my sub renewal in November from six months to monthly. Time will tell.

It's stuff like that that makes us call you carebears and hope for true world pvp so we can pk you at will.

You get all mad when you get insulted but drop insults yourself like it's just fact.

You are not the center of the universe.

But apparently they are the center of yours. You speak with such venom in your want to kill them in game when conversely they could not care less about your existence since they just want to engage in PvE content.

If you want a true world PvP game, go find a game that takes that game design as its principle position. All you're doing now is biting into an apple and crying about how it's not an orange. Elder Scrolls Online is a game that has a PvP map, and some other upcoming PvP options. It's also a game that has a broad range of content for players who never want to engage in PvP, and that should be respected.

But there are players who never want to deal with someone of your caliber in any capacity, and they have a right to the game that was advertised to them.

yarnevk

Halorin wrote: »

When you go into Cyrodiil, it's implied and expected that you could get attacked any moment by players or NPCs. You take the action to expose yourself to PvP. In the upcoming justice system, you accept that a consequence of your stealing and killing NPCs you could be attacked by other players. .

As I just said, that is forced choice. It means anyone that wants to play a criminal, despite that choice being a very popular PVE activity for decades of TES, now has to accept the risk of PVP. That is not the same thing as logging on to Cyrodil, but could be if there was a Justice-PVE/PVP login. I should not have to accept that my sneaky khajit doing what comes naturally means I am exposed to PVP, unless I choose to by logging in for PVP consequences to my sneakiness. Players are happy to play the PVE consequences of being a broke cat with a sweet tooth for that sweet roll, it is why players like to play the sneaky type. But the enjoyment of that risk goes away when it is another player wanting to PVP, if both have not consented to that type of play. This can only be solved with a PVE/PVP login, which will be good for everyone but PVP griefers looking for PVE victims, but since most the PVPers say that is a minority that should get banned anyways then such a login choice will not impact ZOS bottomline. Such a login will allow justice-PVP to be expanded to make the criminal guilds a Tamriel free for all, which they can never do if it is constrained to fit within PVE zones or even AVA zones.