Stamsorc's issue in PvP

katorga

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits

This. It may not be top dog, but stam sorc is more than viable.

Vizirith

Draevik wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

I do fight fellow stamsorcs that have streaked from me like 6 times, or streaked back and forth constantly just to get the stun. It is super annoying. I guess they invested into magicka more, so good on them. Streak is so incredibly overpowered that it makes sense to use it, although my noob self doesn't because it just feels cheesy. Although I may start, but I do love me some defensive rune

Well even 6 times in a row would be about 50k mag which would be pretty excessive to have even factoring in regen. Typically I can streak 3 times in a row before completely exhausting my magpool. Idk never found streak to be overpowered on a stamsorc both on my own and when fighting stamsorcs on other classes. It allows for very good mobility and can be used to great effect with los but the lack of any sustained pressure on the part of the stamsorc makes it not very good in smaller numbered fights where its easier for people to track you. It's definitely saved my life but far less than shade or the raw tankiness of other classes. It is however very good along with shade in keep/good los field fights. If there is a big fight going on where you aren't tracked at all and people tend to wail on the enemy closest to them it's amazing but I'd hardly call it overpowered, at least on a stamsorc.

WeylandLabs

The bias from non Stam Sorcs mains is unreal -

Stam sorcs was one of the classes that you can use in all playstyles. The fact that people are complaining about how OP they are in non CP BG's or 2h Speedy burst playstyle was not all they did. However I understand how you want them to have an identity for RP thus giving them a speedy type of character.


They used to be Utility - Full dot - Synergized well with good thoerycrafting sets and made other unused skills and abilities work for group or small group and solo.

The forums have become so radicalized, that its no longer a discussion based on balance progression and fun. But an opposition of bias of who can rally the most people around your ideology for your playstyle.

StaticWave

I encourage people to play stamsorc for at least 3 months in all aspects of PvP (1v1, 1vX, smallscale, GvG) and try multiple playstyles (1-shot, roller sorc, brawler sorc, support/disruptor sorc, etc.) to fully grasp the strengths and weaknesses of this class. Not to undermine anyone, but I think saying that you “see stamsorcs getting top kills in BGs” or how “god tier and overpowered” they are without providing any reasonable evidence just shows a lack of experience for this class. From my personal experience, every good player (people who perform well in all aspects of PvP) who has tried this class all told me that it’s underwhelming compared to other classes. Objectively, we can even make an argument for buffing stamsorc’s survivability by cross examining their abilities vs other classes in a real fight. All in all, my point is that I’ve tried every single playstyle imaginable for this class and I think it needs better survivability. I can provide the necessary evidence if needed, so feel free to tell me why I’m wrong.

ketsparrowhawk

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

StaticWave

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

You are using BGs as the sole basis to claim that stamsorc is "cheesy". BG is not the only place to form an opinion on a class's strength and weakness. It's part of it, but not the whole picture. Your build will get shredded in Cyrodiil where fights happen on a larger scale and damage is exponentially more. In a 1v1, your build will also get hard countered by experienced players who know how to deal with a stamsorc. You simply do not have the survivability, period. So no, "most likely" here applies to you and everyone who thinks about trying this playstyle.

Back to your point, BG is also not a good place to form an opinion on stamsorc because you are doing a 4v4v4, with dedicated healers and other DPS that cover your weaknesses. I don't really care what K/D you have. It doesn't prove anything in the grand scheme of things because in an actual sweaty BG, the weakest team will usually get farmed by the other 2 stronger ones. You landing more K/D doesn't mean anything. Even in a solo Q match, you will most likely run into less experienced players, and killing them also give a high K/D, which every class can do. Try stamsorc in 1v1, smallscale, 1vX, GvG, then you'll see why stamsorc is weak.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit. They have more damage passives, a cheap class ultimate that amplifies damage, the 2nd strongest spammable in the game that applies minor breach + off balance + stuns, class major breach, 2 HoTs that are easy to proc, and Major Resolve that can be procced off doing damage or using a Shadow ability. These stacked passives and dmg amplifiers literally allow them to build full tank and can still out damage a stamsorc in full dmg gear, while being MUCH tankier. If they go full damage, then they simply outclass stamsorc in every way. This is tested countless times by stamblade and stamsorc mains and I can always post screenshots to prove this. In a real fight, shade + cloak is much better at shaking off enemies in pursuit than streak, because you literally disappear from the screen. Why do you think so many people play stamblade?

relentless_turnip

I main stamsorc these days and I absolutely love it. I think they are in a really good place and making them tanky on top of their mobility may just make them OP for a patch and see them nerfed in areas that made them distinct.

I have watched your videos OP. I know you are a good player, but I do feel these changes would be too much. I would like to see major savagery added to crit surge so we don't have to run camo hunter to get the most out of it. This would also allow our heals to crit more often as well with it being active on both bars. As well as granting us more bar space. This change would be enough for me. I too play outnumbered, small scale and BG's. The most dominant class in all of them is warden IMO.

Tessitura

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

Because procs are free damage and does not indicate whether a stamsorc is strong or not. Use the same procs on a different class and they perform better. Look at no proc cyrodiil for example. Magsorc instantly became toptier and demonstrates a class imbalance issue that procs cannot solve.

The proposed changes will make sorc tankier. If you have played this class correctly you will know they struggle with bar space if they want to slot on damage. You cannot slot all 3 of the suggested changes on your bar. You will have to either give up damage for more survivability, or give up survivability for more damage. That's working as intended, but at the moment you are still squishier than other classes despite slotting more survivability abilities. The proposed changes will help players who do not want to use rally, players who just want to face tank by sacrificing dmg, or players who simply want more healing.

That is entirely false thinking. No class stands on its own without gear and gear effects. Proc or no procs. Thats never going away from this game. All builds rely on their gear more then anything else. Even classes are secondary to the balance discussion between stamina and magicka sets. Plus procs are currently active in all pvp again.

Stam sorc has always been something of a berserker in the game, The design was always fast with high damage, and again, it's in one of the best states it has been in in years. And by the way, I have been playing sorcs since the game's beta and not just sorcs but many classes. All of them struggle with bar space to a degree, Its not just sorc's and also sorcs have some of the best tool kits in the game to work with as well. Passives are some of the best, and they have not just one but two unblockable stuns. Of all the things that might need help right now it's not them. .

ketsparrowhawk

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

You are using BGs as the sole basis to claim that stamsorc is "cheesy". BG is not the only place to form an opinion on a class's strength and weakness. It's part of it, but not the whole picture. Your build will get shredded in Cyrodiil where fights happen on a larger scale and damage is exponentially more. In a 1v1, your build will also get hard countered by experienced players who know how to deal with a stamsorc. You simply do not have the survivability, period. So no, "most likely" here applies to you and everyone who thinks about trying this playstyle.

Back to your point, BG is also not a good place to form an opinion on stamsorc because you are doing a 4v4v4, with dedicated healers and other DPS that cover your weaknesses. I don't really care what K/D you have. It doesn't prove anything in the grand scheme of things because in an actual sweaty BG, the weakest team will usually get farmed by the other 2 stronger ones. You landing more K/D doesn't mean anything. Even in a solo Q match, you will most likely run into less experienced players, and killing them also give a high K/D, which every class can do. Try stamsorc in 1v1, smallscale, 1vX, GvG, then you'll see why stamsorc is weak.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit. They have more damage passives, a cheap class ultimate that amplifies damage, the 2nd strongest spammable in the game that applies minor breach + off balance + stuns, class major breach, 2 HoTs that are easy to proc, and Major Resolve that can be procced off doing damage or using a Shadow ability. These stacked passives and dmg amplifiers literally allow them to build full tank and can still out damage a stamsorc in full dmg gear, while being MUCH tankier. If they go full damage, then they simply outclass stamsorc in every way. This is tested countless times by stamblade and stamsorc mains and I can always post screenshots to prove this. In a real fight, shade + cloak is much better at shaking off enemies in pursuit than streak, because you literally disappear from the screen. Why do you think so many people play stamblade?

For me it is the only place to form an opinion because that's the only mode of PVP I engage in. Buffing stamSorcs survivability will make them even more annoying in BG's. Their survivability is already excellent. You have one GCD to try and burst a sorc down before they're out of range and resources restored.

Interesting that stamblade is objectively better based on their toolkit, yet they don't hold a candle to stamSorcs in BG's. If they were objectively superior then I would expect them to outperform stamSorcs in ALL PvP modes. But they don't. 1v1 and solo open world is where stamblades excel, which seems right to me. Stamsorcs are superior in other scenarios (small+large scale groups). Not all specs need to be equally matched in all scenarios.

I don't do much Cyro but I've seen plenty of Fengrush streams where he is having great success using a glass cannon build in large-scale fights. He doesn't get shredded because he just STREAKS AWAY as soon as someone light attacks him. And if you want to talk about the group support you get in a BG.. that's nothing compared to the support that's present in large scale cyro fights.

When I stop seeing stamSorcs at the top of almost every BG then maybe I'll jump on the "buff sorc" train. I did some duo BG's just last night and that experience only reinforced my opinion that stamSorcs are juuuust fine. These were very high MMR matches with several names I'm sure you'd recognize.

xylena_lazarow

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

The bias from non Stam Sorcs mains is unreal

There's also a ton of bias regarding one-shot builds, whether BGs proc sorcs, or Cyro magblade bombers. I don't think the people saying "stamsorc is fine because it can one-shot" realize how fragile and limited these sort of builds are. Outside the moment you one-shot somebody, you really can't do much, it's a big sacrifice and a narrow playstyle.

StaticWave

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

You are using BGs as the sole basis to claim that stamsorc is "cheesy". BG is not the only place to form an opinion on a class's strength and weakness. It's part of it, but not the whole picture. Your build will get shredded in Cyrodiil where fights happen on a larger scale and damage is exponentially more. In a 1v1, your build will also get hard countered by experienced players who know how to deal with a stamsorc. You simply do not have the survivability, period. So no, "most likely" here applies to you and everyone who thinks about trying this playstyle.

Back to your point, BG is also not a good place to form an opinion on stamsorc because you are doing a 4v4v4, with dedicated healers and other DPS that cover your weaknesses. I don't really care what K/D you have. It doesn't prove anything in the grand scheme of things because in an actual sweaty BG, the weakest team will usually get farmed by the other 2 stronger ones. You landing more K/D doesn't mean anything. Even in a solo Q match, you will most likely run into less experienced players, and killing them also give a high K/D, which every class can do. Try stamsorc in 1v1, smallscale, 1vX, GvG, then you'll see why stamsorc is weak.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit. They have more damage passives, a cheap class ultimate that amplifies damage, the 2nd strongest spammable in the game that applies minor breach + off balance + stuns, class major breach, 2 HoTs that are easy to proc, and Major Resolve that can be procced off doing damage or using a Shadow ability. These stacked passives and dmg amplifiers literally allow them to build full tank and can still out damage a stamsorc in full dmg gear, while being MUCH tankier. If they go full damage, then they simply outclass stamsorc in every way. This is tested countless times by stamblade and stamsorc mains and I can always post screenshots to prove this. In a real fight, shade + cloak is much better at shaking off enemies in pursuit than streak, because you literally disappear from the screen. Why do you think so many people play stamblade?

For me it is the only place to form an opinion because that's the only mode of PVP I engage in. Buffing stamSorcs survivability will make them even more annoying in BG's. Their survivability is already excellent. You have one GCD to try and burst a sorc down before they're out of range and resources restored.

Interesting that stamblade is objectively better based on their toolkit, yet they don't hold a candle to stamSorcs in BG's. If they were objectively superior then I would expect them to outperform stamSorcs in ALL PvP modes. But they don't. 1v1 and solo open world is where stamblades excel, which seems right to me. Stamsorcs are superior in other scenarios (small+large scale groups). Not all specs need to be equally matched in all scenarios.

I don't do much Cyro but I've seen plenty of Fengrush streams where he is having great success using a glass cannon build in large-scale fights. He doesn't get shredded because he just STREAKS AWAY as soon as someone light attacks him. And if you want to talk about the group support you get in a BG.. that's nothing compared to the support that's present in large scale cyro fights.

When I stop seeing stamSorcs at the top of almost every BG then maybe I'll jump on the "buff sorc" train. I did some duo BG's just last night and that experience only reinforced my opinion that stamSorcs are juuuust fine. These were very high MMR matches with several names I'm sure you'd recognize.

Ok so you only engage in 1 PvP mode yet you are speaking about stamsorc as if you know everything about it... lol. Like I said, you should try all other PvP modes and not just look at someone doing it and assuming it works. Just because someone makes it work doesn't mean it is good. It just means that player is good.

StaticWave

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

Because procs are free damage and does not indicate whether a stamsorc is strong or not. Use the same procs on a different class and they perform better. Look at no proc cyrodiil for example. Magsorc instantly became toptier and demonstrates a class imbalance issue that procs cannot solve.

The proposed changes will make sorc tankier. If you have played this class correctly you will know they struggle with bar space if they want to slot on damage. You cannot slot all 3 of the suggested changes on your bar. You will have to either give up damage for more survivability, or give up survivability for more damage. That's working as intended, but at the moment you are still squishier than other classes despite slotting more survivability abilities. The proposed changes will help players who do not want to use rally, players who just want to face tank by sacrificing dmg, or players who simply want more healing.

That is entirely false thinking. No class stands on its own without gear and gear effects. Proc or no procs. Thats never going away from this game. All builds rely on their gear more then anything else. Even classes are secondary to the balance discussion between stamina and magicka sets. Plus procs are currently active in all pvp again.

Stam sorc has always been something of a berserker in the game, The design was always fast with high damage, and again, it's in one of the best states it has been in in years. And by the way, I have been playing sorcs since the game's beta and not just sorcs but many classes. All of them struggle with bar space to a degree, Its not just sorc's and also sorcs have some of the best tool kits in the game to work with as well. Passives are some of the best, and they have not just one but two unblockable stuns. Of all the things that might need help right now it's not them. .

The no proc cyrodiil test was a prime example of class imbalance because everyone was stuck with 15 sets and every competitive player was in the same setup. Yet some classes performed much better than others. So no, it's not false thinking because when you have 2 classes wearing the same gear setup, the class with better design wins.

Stamsorc design is a failure. It's fast but the damage isn't there to back it up. Let's compare their 2 class offensive abilities, Crystal Weapon & Bound, vs stamblade's Surprise Attack & Relentless Focus:

1) Crystal Weapon: Reduces armor by 1000, reduces cost of next non ulti ability by 10%
Surprise Attack: Applies Sundered effect which reduces armor by 2.9k, stuns enemies from flank and applies Off balance

Surprise Attack has 3 effects and is a true spammable compared to crystal weapon. This alone makes it much better than Crystal Weapon as a spammable. Not only that but it lets you save a bar slot because you have a built in stun that also sets enemies off balance, which is huge because it increases your medium attack damage by 75%. Crystal Weapon is only better than Surprise Attack because you can use it as a delayed burst, but the damage of Crystal Weapon isn't as good as other delayed bursts like Haunting Curse or sub assault or blastbones. It's in a limbo where it can't decide what it wants to be. Don't get me wrong I still love Crystal Weapon, but the added effects it gives isn't noteworthy at all compared to other class spammables.

2) Bound Armaments: 8% max stam, 10% la damage while slotted. When activated deals X dmg every 0.3s
Relentless Focus: 10% crit dmg AND healing. When activated deals X dmg and HEALS for 33% while in melee

Literally just looking at these 2 abilities you can see Relentless Focus is superior. You have to build up to 5 stacks to get the proc, but the damage is also better, making it a better burst ability than Bound. It also gives you 10% crit dmg and healing, making your damage AND your healing much stronger. The effect also works on both bars instead of Bound which only gives you the buffs on 1 bar only. Not only that but you get a fat burst heal if you land the bow proc, whereas Bound doesn't have any extra effect upon activation. The icing on the cake is it lasts 60 seconds, and once you build up to 5 stacks you don't even have to use it right away, whereas Bound only lasts 10s before disappearing, forcing you to build the stacks again. Oh, did I also mention that you can get 2 stacks with a heavy attack with Relentless Focus?

And let's not even talk about passives lmao. There is literally an entire skill line with 3 useless passives if you don't have a daedric summoning ability slotted.

WeylandLabs

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

Because procs are free damage and does not indicate whether a stamsorc is strong or not. Use the same procs on a different class and they perform better. Look at no proc cyrodiil for example. Magsorc instantly became toptier and demonstrates a class imbalance issue that procs cannot solve.

The proposed changes will make sorc tankier. If you have played this class correctly you will know they struggle with bar space if they want to slot on damage. You cannot slot all 3 of the suggested changes on your bar. You will have to either give up damage for more survivability, or give up survivability for more damage. That's working as intended, but at the moment you are still squishier than other classes despite slotting more survivability abilities. The proposed changes will help players who do not want to use rally, players who just want to face tank by sacrificing dmg, or players who simply want more healing.

That is entirely false thinking. No class stands on its own without gear and gear effects. Proc or no procs. Thats never going away from this game. All builds rely on their gear more then anything else. Even classes are secondary to the balance discussion between stamina and magicka sets. Plus procs are currently active in all pvp again.

Stam sorc has always been something of a berserker in the game, The design was always fast with high damage, and again, it's in one of the best states it has been in in years. And by the way, I have been playing sorcs since the game's beta and not just sorcs but many classes. All of them struggle with bar space to a degree, Its not just sorc's and also sorcs have some of the best tool kits in the game to work with as well. Passives are some of the best, and they have not just one but two unblockable stuns. Of all the things that might need help right now it's not them. .

The no proc cyrodiil test was a prime example of class imbalance because everyone was stuck with 15 sets and every competitive player was in the same setup. Yet some classes performed much better than others. So no, it's not false thinking because when you have 2 classes wearing the same gear setup, the class with better design wins.

Stamsorc design is a failure. It's fast but the damage isn't there to back it up. Let's compare their 2 class offensive abilities, Crystal Weapon & Bound, vs stamblade's Surprise Attack & Relentless Focus:

1) Crystal Weapon: Reduces armor by 1000, reduces cost of next non ulti ability by 10%
Surprise Attack: Applies Sundered effect which reduces armor by 2.9k, stuns enemies from flank and applies Off balance

Surprise Attack has 3 effects and is a true spammable compared to crystal weapon. This alone makes it much better than Crystal Weapon as a spammable. Not only that but it lets you save a bar slot because you have a built in stun that also sets enemies off balance, which is huge because it increases your medium attack damage by 75%. Crystal Weapon is only better than Surprise Attack because you can use it as a delayed burst, but the damage of Crystal Weapon isn't as good as other delayed bursts like Haunting Curse or sub assault or blastbones. It's in a limbo where it can't decide what it wants to be. Don't get me wrong I still love Crystal Weapon, but the added effects it gives isn't noteworthy at all compared to other class spammables.

2) Bound Armaments: 8% max stam, 10% la damage while slotted. When activated deals X dmg every 0.3s
Relentless Focus: 10% crit dmg AND healing. When activated deals X dmg and HEALS for 33% while in melee

Literally just looking at these 2 abilities you can see Relentless Focus is superior. You have to build up to 5 stacks to get the proc, but the damage is also better, making it a better burst ability than Bound. It also gives you 10% crit dmg and healing, making your damage AND your healing much stronger. The effect also works on both bars instead of Bound which only gives you the buffs on 1 bar only. Not only that but you get a fat burst heal if you land the bow proc, whereas Bound doesn't have any extra effect upon activation. The icing on the cake is it lasts 60 seconds, and once you build up to 5 stacks you don't even have to use it right away, whereas Bound only lasts 10s before disappearing, forcing you to build the stacks again. Oh, did I also mention that you can get 2 stacks with a heavy attack with Relentless Focus?

And let's not even talk about passives lmao. There is literally an entire skill line with 3 useless passives if you don't have a daedric summoning ability slotted.

They dont get it yet... Sucks that this community is so bias they dont want a class to have any other playstyles or tools to counter there basic thinking builds and 1 playstyle in a game.

It's funny because you can tell who the bias ones on here, and they are quick to counter any argument based on claims of being a main stam sorc 😂 or using the word OP in there sentences.

It's like saying :

Hello, Mr Developer

Can you please not touch Stam Sorc for the reason of me not knowing how to creatively think about bringing out the best in that class. I really dont like Stam sorcs in the past because they were able to do different things and disrupt my basic playstyle in BG's Cyrodill and 1v1's. I will continue to debate my point in the forums in claims, rally people like minded around my argument. Because at the end of the day this is about politics in a video game not fun.

Thanks,

Sincerely Salty / Toxic players 👎







Coming back to ESO is really odd today...

Tessitura

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

Because procs are free damage and does not indicate whether a stamsorc is strong or not. Use the same procs on a different class and they perform better. Look at no proc cyrodiil for example. Magsorc instantly became toptier and demonstrates a class imbalance issue that procs cannot solve.

The proposed changes will make sorc tankier. If you have played this class correctly you will know they struggle with bar space if they want to slot on damage. You cannot slot all 3 of the suggested changes on your bar. You will have to either give up damage for more survivability, or give up survivability for more damage. That's working as intended, but at the moment you are still squishier than other classes despite slotting more survivability abilities. The proposed changes will help players who do not want to use rally, players who just want to face tank by sacrificing dmg, or players who simply want more healing.

That is entirely false thinking. No class stands on its own without gear and gear effects. Proc or no procs. Thats never going away from this game. All builds rely on their gear more then anything else. Even classes are secondary to the balance discussion between stamina and magicka sets. Plus procs are currently active in all pvp again.

Stam sorc has always been something of a berserker in the game, The design was always fast with high damage, and again, it's in one of the best states it has been in in years. And by the way, I have been playing sorcs since the game's beta and not just sorcs but many classes. All of them struggle with bar space to a degree, Its not just sorc's and also sorcs have some of the best tool kits in the game to work with as well. Passives are some of the best, and they have not just one but two unblockable stuns. Of all the things that might need help right now it's not them. .

The no proc cyrodiil test was a prime example of class imbalance because everyone was stuck with 15 sets and every competitive player was in the same setup. Yet some classes performed much better than others. So no, it's not false thinking because when you have 2 classes wearing the same gear setup, the class with better design wins.

Stamsorc design is a failure. It's fast but the damage isn't there to back it up. Let's compare their 2 class offensive abilities, Crystal Weapon & Bound, vs stamblade's Surprise Attack & Relentless Focus:

1) Crystal Weapon: Reduces armor by 1000, reduces cost of next non ulti ability by 10%
Surprise Attack: Applies Sundered effect which reduces armor by 2.9k, stuns enemies from flank and applies Off balance

Surprise Attack has 3 effects and is a true spammable compared to crystal weapon. This alone makes it much better than Crystal Weapon as a spammable. Not only that but it lets you save a bar slot because you have a built in stun that also sets enemies off balance, which is huge because it increases your medium attack damage by 75%. Crystal Weapon is only better than Surprise Attack because you can use it as a delayed burst, but the damage of Crystal Weapon isn't as good as other delayed bursts like Haunting Curse or sub assault or blastbones. It's in a limbo where it can't decide what it wants to be. Don't get me wrong I still love Crystal Weapon, but the added effects it gives isn't noteworthy at all compared to other class spammables.

2) Bound Armaments: 8% max stam, 10% la damage while slotted. When activated deals X dmg every 0.3s
Relentless Focus: 10% crit dmg AND healing. When activated deals X dmg and HEALS for 33% while in melee

Literally just looking at these 2 abilities you can see Relentless Focus is superior. You have to build up to 5 stacks to get the proc, but the damage is also better, making it a better burst ability than Bound. It also gives you 10% crit dmg and healing, making your damage AND your healing much stronger. The effect also works on both bars instead of Bound which only gives you the buffs on 1 bar only. Not only that but you get a fat burst heal if you land the bow proc, whereas Bound doesn't have any extra effect upon activation. The icing on the cake is it lasts 60 seconds, and once you build up to 5 stacks you don't even have to use it right away, whereas Bound only lasts 10s before disappearing, forcing you to build the stacks again. Oh, did I also mention that you can get 2 stacks with a heavy attack with Relentless Focus?

And let's not even talk about passives lmao. There is literally an entire skill line with 3 useless passives if you don't have a daedric summoning ability slotted.

They dont get it yet... Sucks that this community is so bias they dont want a class to have any other playstyles or tools to counter there basic thinking builds and 1 playstyle in a game.

It's funny because you can tell who the bias ones on here, and they are quick to counter any argument based on claims of being a main stam sorc 😂 or using the word OP in there sentences.

It's like saying :

Hello, Mr Developer

Can you please not touch Stam Sorc for the reason of me not knowing how to creatively think about bringing out the best in that class. I really dont like Stam sorcs in the past because they were able to do different things and disrupt my basic playstyle in BG's Cyrodill and 1v1's. I will continue to debate my point in the forums in claims, rally people like minded around my argument. Because at the end of the day this is about politics in a video game not fun.

Thanks,

Sincerely Salty / Toxic players 👎







Coming back to ESO is really odd today...

Yeah it can't possibly be that you are the one that isn't creative and doesn't get it. It' gotta be everyone else that is wrong and never you. I am sorry you guys can't see how good stam sorcs have it right now and that you can't see that most stam builds are pigeon holed into one or two build types. But it is what it is.

Tessitura

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

Because procs are free damage and does not indicate whether a stamsorc is strong or not. Use the same procs on a different class and they perform better. Look at no proc cyrodiil for example. Magsorc instantly became toptier and demonstrates a class imbalance issue that procs cannot solve.

The proposed changes will make sorc tankier. If you have played this class correctly you will know they struggle with bar space if they want to slot on damage. You cannot slot all 3 of the suggested changes on your bar. You will have to either give up damage for more survivability, or give up survivability for more damage. That's working as intended, but at the moment you are still squishier than other classes despite slotting more survivability abilities. The proposed changes will help players who do not want to use rally, players who just want to face tank by sacrificing dmg, or players who simply want more healing.

That is entirely false thinking. No class stands on its own without gear and gear effects. Proc or no procs. Thats never going away from this game. All builds rely on their gear more then anything else. Even classes are secondary to the balance discussion between stamina and magicka sets. Plus procs are currently active in all pvp again.

Stam sorc has always been something of a berserker in the game, The design was always fast with high damage, and again, it's in one of the best states it has been in in years. And by the way, I have been playing sorcs since the game's beta and not just sorcs but many classes. All of them struggle with bar space to a degree, Its not just sorc's and also sorcs have some of the best tool kits in the game to work with as well. Passives are some of the best, and they have not just one but two unblockable stuns. Of all the things that might need help right now it's not them. .

The no proc cyrodiil test was a prime example of class imbalance because everyone was stuck with 15 sets and every competitive player was in the same setup. Yet some classes performed much better than others. So no, it's not false thinking because when you have 2 classes wearing the same gear setup, the class with better design wins.

Stamsorc design is a failure. It's fast but the damage isn't there to back it up. Let's compare their 2 class offensive abilities, Crystal Weapon & Bound, vs stamblade's Surprise Attack & Relentless Focus:

1) Crystal Weapon: Reduces armor by 1000, reduces cost of next non ulti ability by 10%
Surprise Attack: Applies Sundered effect which reduces armor by 2.9k, stuns enemies from flank and applies Off balance

Surprise Attack has 3 effects and is a true spammable compared to crystal weapon. This alone makes it much better than Crystal Weapon as a spammable. Not only that but it lets you save a bar slot because you have a built in stun that also sets enemies off balance, which is huge because it increases your medium attack damage by 75%. Crystal Weapon is only better than Surprise Attack because you can use it as a delayed burst, but the damage of Crystal Weapon isn't as good as other delayed bursts like Haunting Curse or sub assault or blastbones. It's in a limbo where it can't decide what it wants to be. Don't get me wrong I still love Crystal Weapon, but the added effects it gives isn't noteworthy at all compared to other class spammables.

2) Bound Armaments: 8% max stam, 10% la damage while slotted. When activated deals X dmg every 0.3s
Relentless Focus: 10% crit dmg AND healing. When activated deals X dmg and HEALS for 33% while in melee

Literally just looking at these 2 abilities you can see Relentless Focus is superior. You have to build up to 5 stacks to get the proc, but the damage is also better, making it a better burst ability than Bound. It also gives you 10% crit dmg and healing, making your damage AND your healing much stronger. The effect also works on both bars instead of Bound which only gives you the buffs on 1 bar only. Not only that but you get a fat burst heal if you land the bow proc, whereas Bound doesn't have any extra effect upon activation. The icing on the cake is it lasts 60 seconds, and once you build up to 5 stacks you don't even have to use it right away, whereas Bound only lasts 10s before disappearing, forcing you to build the stacks again. Oh, did I also mention that you can get 2 stacks with a heavy attack with Relentless Focus?

And let's not even talk about passives lmao. There is literally an entire skill line with 3 useless passives if you don't have a daedric summoning ability slotted.

No proc Cyrodiil is not a thing anymore, if it was the standard for pvp you might have a argument for the class imbalance, but it's not, and probably wont be again since it was such a good idea and they hate good ideas. You can not use this as a metric for balance since it is not indicative of standard gameplay nor is it indicative of standard builds.

Something you keep doing is only comparing this class to NB which I find odd, NB isn't the only stam class out there and while they are strong they are fairly easy to deal with once you know they are there, which makes me think you have some obession with the NB class and how stam sorcs does against it. Not a good lense to view greater balance through. But I'll humor it for a moment. Something surprise attack can't do is hit you with a Medium attack, enchant/poison proc, crystal, and Frenzied momentum at the same time. Stam sorc has all that potential front loaded into one hit, so yeah surprise attack does more, but it also doesn't get to hit you three to four times in one Global.

Also Bound does not pull the same numbers as Relentless because you already have a big burst hit with Crystal Weapon and the medium+enchant hit. Relentless is the NB burst tool so it is gonna hit hard. The burst tool for Stam Sorc is not Bound and generally I don't know anyone that uses Bound in pvp. Just like how a lot of stam blades don't use Mark Target or Killer's Blade. There is just more valuable abilities for the bar space. All classes have to deal with that.

You know what else NB doesn't have? Hurricane, a fantastic buff that adds damage and protection to our kit. They also dont have portable LOS summons, nor do they have as powerful burst heal options. Which you do have believe it or not in the form of Dark Deal, and Clannfear.

As far as your issue with passives go, welcome to every class. They all have conditional passives that are useless if you don't do whatever meets that condition. Often that means having a certain ability slotted. What you do have is amazing raw damage passives that freely increase physical and spell damage by a percent which is scaling. You have weapon and spell damage increases as well, and you have a lot of cost reduction and recovery passives.

All the possible logical arguments have been made to get you to see how stam sorc is in a good place for a stamina build, and you refuse to accept any of them. At this point there really is nothing left to talk about because pretty soon we will start talking in circles. So this is my last post on the subject. Good luck out there and goodbye.

StaticWave

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

Because procs are free damage and does not indicate whether a stamsorc is strong or not. Use the same procs on a different class and they perform better. Look at no proc cyrodiil for example. Magsorc instantly became toptier and demonstrates a class imbalance issue that procs cannot solve.

The proposed changes will make sorc tankier. If you have played this class correctly you will know they struggle with bar space if they want to slot on damage. You cannot slot all 3 of the suggested changes on your bar. You will have to either give up damage for more survivability, or give up survivability for more damage. That's working as intended, but at the moment you are still squishier than other classes despite slotting more survivability abilities. The proposed changes will help players who do not want to use rally, players who just want to face tank by sacrificing dmg, or players who simply want more healing.

That is entirely false thinking. No class stands on its own without gear and gear effects. Proc or no procs. Thats never going away from this game. All builds rely on their gear more then anything else. Even classes are secondary to the balance discussion between stamina and magicka sets. Plus procs are currently active in all pvp again.

Stam sorc has always been something of a berserker in the game, The design was always fast with high damage, and again, it's in one of the best states it has been in in years. And by the way, I have been playing sorcs since the game's beta and not just sorcs but many classes. All of them struggle with bar space to a degree, Its not just sorc's and also sorcs have some of the best tool kits in the game to work with as well. Passives are some of the best, and they have not just one but two unblockable stuns. Of all the things that might need help right now it's not them. .

The no proc cyrodiil test was a prime example of class imbalance because everyone was stuck with 15 sets and every competitive player was in the same setup. Yet some classes performed much better than others. So no, it's not false thinking because when you have 2 classes wearing the same gear setup, the class with better design wins.

Stamsorc design is a failure. It's fast but the damage isn't there to back it up. Let's compare their 2 class offensive abilities, Crystal Weapon & Bound, vs stamblade's Surprise Attack & Relentless Focus:

1) Crystal Weapon: Reduces armor by 1000, reduces cost of next non ulti ability by 10%
Surprise Attack: Applies Sundered effect which reduces armor by 2.9k, stuns enemies from flank and applies Off balance

Surprise Attack has 3 effects and is a true spammable compared to crystal weapon. This alone makes it much better than Crystal Weapon as a spammable. Not only that but it lets you save a bar slot because you have a built in stun that also sets enemies off balance, which is huge because it increases your medium attack damage by 75%. Crystal Weapon is only better than Surprise Attack because you can use it as a delayed burst, but the damage of Crystal Weapon isn't as good as other delayed bursts like Haunting Curse or sub assault or blastbones. It's in a limbo where it can't decide what it wants to be. Don't get me wrong I still love Crystal Weapon, but the added effects it gives isn't noteworthy at all compared to other class spammables.

2) Bound Armaments: 8% max stam, 10% la damage while slotted. When activated deals X dmg every 0.3s
Relentless Focus: 10% crit dmg AND healing. When activated deals X dmg and HEALS for 33% while in melee

Literally just looking at these 2 abilities you can see Relentless Focus is superior. You have to build up to 5 stacks to get the proc, but the damage is also better, making it a better burst ability than Bound. It also gives you 10% crit dmg and healing, making your damage AND your healing much stronger. The effect also works on both bars instead of Bound which only gives you the buffs on 1 bar only. Not only that but you get a fat burst heal if you land the bow proc, whereas Bound doesn't have any extra effect upon activation. The icing on the cake is it lasts 60 seconds, and once you build up to 5 stacks you don't even have to use it right away, whereas Bound only lasts 10s before disappearing, forcing you to build the stacks again. Oh, did I also mention that you can get 2 stacks with a heavy attack with Relentless Focus?

And let's not even talk about passives lmao. There is literally an entire skill line with 3 useless passives if you don't have a daedric summoning ability slotted.

No proc Cyrodiil is not a thing anymore, if it was the standard for pvp you might have a argument for the class imbalance, but it's not, and probably wont be again since it was such a good idea and they hate good ideas. You can not use this as a metric for balance since it is not indicative of standard gameplay nor is it indicative of standard builds.

Something you keep doing is only comparing this class to NB which I find odd, NB isn't the only stam class out there and while they are strong they are fairly easy to deal with once you know they are their. which makes me think you have some obession with the NB class and how stam sorcs does against it. Not a good lense to view greater balance through. But I'll humor it for a moment. Something surprise attack can't do is hit you with a Medium attack, enchant/poison proc, crystal, and Frenzied momentum at the same time. Stam sorc has all that potential front loaded into one hit, so yeah surprise attack does more, but it also doesn't get to hit you three to four times in one Global.

Also Bound does not pull the same numbers as Relentless because you already have a big burst hit with Crystal Weapon and the medium+enchant hit. Relentless is the NB burst tool so it is gonna hit hard. The burst tool for Stam Sorc is not Bound and generally I don't know anyone that uses Bound in pvp. Just like how a lot of stam blades don't use Mark Target or Killer's Blade. There is just more valuable abilities for the bar space. All classes have to deal with that.

You know what else NB doesn't have? Hurricane, a fantastic buff that adds damage and protection to our kit. They also dont have portable LOS summons, nor do they have as powerful burst heal options. Which you do have believe it or not in the form of Dark Deal, and Clannfear.

As far as your issue with passives go, welcome to every class. They all have conditional passives that are useless if you don't do whatever meets that condition. Often that means having a certain ability slotted. What you do have is amazing raw damage passives that freely increase physical and spell damage by a percent which is scaling. You have weapon and spell damage increases as well, and you have a lot of cost reduction and recovery passives.

All the possible logical arguments have been made to get you to see how stam sorc is in a good place for a stamina build, and you refuse to accept any of them. At this point there really is nothing left to talk about because pretty soon we will start talking in circles. So this is my last post on the subject. Good luck out there and goodbye.

No, all the “logical arguments” I’ve seen from this thread are those that claim stamsorcs are god tier, yet they base their claim on 1 type of pvp, or someone else’ experience on the class. I even went ahead and argued objectively. But let me just get subjective and “brag” for a moment.

I literally do 1vX on the daily, fighting from mediocre players to average players in cyrodiil. I also spend a large amount of time dueling top tier players in stormhaven. I also spend a lot of time doing BGs going against premades and top MMR sweatlords on PC NA. You know, the ones that stack all the cheese they can to win. People call me one of, if not the best stamsorc on PC NA, because I mained it for 3 years and played it through its rough times. I’ve helped a lot of players who want to get into this class because I’m always being recommended by the people who gave me that title. I know the class is in a better place, you don’t have to tell me that. But i also know it isnt better than what people are claiming it to be. Just because you see stamsorcs getting top K/D in some BG match doesn’t mean it’s good. It is still by far the worst stamina class in the game. It’s only saving grace is the fact that it can streak, but that’s it. The damage is weaker than other classes, and it can’t face tank like other classes. You are seriously telling me, a 3 year stamsorc main who’s done every single pvp type in this game, that my class is good? What a joke. If you are on PC NA, let’s do some duos. I wanna see just how good you are.

StaticWave

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

Because procs are free damage and does not indicate whether a stamsorc is strong or not. Use the same procs on a different class and they perform better. Look at no proc cyrodiil for example. Magsorc instantly became toptier and demonstrates a class imbalance issue that procs cannot solve.

The proposed changes will make sorc tankier. If you have played this class correctly you will know they struggle with bar space if they want to slot on damage. You cannot slot all 3 of the suggested changes on your bar. You will have to either give up damage for more survivability, or give up survivability for more damage. That's working as intended, but at the moment you are still squishier than other classes despite slotting more survivability abilities. The proposed changes will help players who do not want to use rally, players who just want to face tank by sacrificing dmg, or players who simply want more healing.

That is entirely false thinking. No class stands on its own without gear and gear effects. Proc or no procs. Thats never going away from this game. All builds rely on their gear more then anything else. Even classes are secondary to the balance discussion between stamina and magicka sets. Plus procs are currently active in all pvp again.

Stam sorc has always been something of a berserker in the game, The design was always fast with high damage, and again, it's in one of the best states it has been in in years. And by the way, I have been playing sorcs since the game's beta and not just sorcs but many classes. All of them struggle with bar space to a degree, Its not just sorc's and also sorcs have some of the best tool kits in the game to work with as well. Passives are some of the best, and they have not just one but two unblockable stuns. Of all the things that might need help right now it's not them. .

The no proc cyrodiil test was a prime example of class imbalance because everyone was stuck with 15 sets and every competitive player was in the same setup. Yet some classes performed much better than others. So no, it's not false thinking because when you have 2 classes wearing the same gear setup, the class with better design wins.

Stamsorc design is a failure. It's fast but the damage isn't there to back it up. Let's compare their 2 class offensive abilities, Crystal Weapon & Bound, vs stamblade's Surprise Attack & Relentless Focus:

1) Crystal Weapon: Reduces armor by 1000, reduces cost of next non ulti ability by 10%
Surprise Attack: Applies Sundered effect which reduces armor by 2.9k, stuns enemies from flank and applies Off balance

Surprise Attack has 3 effects and is a true spammable compared to crystal weapon. This alone makes it much better than Crystal Weapon as a spammable. Not only that but it lets you save a bar slot because you have a built in stun that also sets enemies off balance, which is huge because it increases your medium attack damage by 75%. Crystal Weapon is only better than Surprise Attack because you can use it as a delayed burst, but the damage of Crystal Weapon isn't as good as other delayed bursts like Haunting Curse or sub assault or blastbones. It's in a limbo where it can't decide what it wants to be. Don't get me wrong I still love Crystal Weapon, but the added effects it gives isn't noteworthy at all compared to other class spammables.

2) Bound Armaments: 8% max stam, 10% la damage while slotted. When activated deals X dmg every 0.3s
Relentless Focus: 10% crit dmg AND healing. When activated deals X dmg and HEALS for 33% while in melee

Literally just looking at these 2 abilities you can see Relentless Focus is superior. You have to build up to 5 stacks to get the proc, but the damage is also better, making it a better burst ability than Bound. It also gives you 10% crit dmg and healing, making your damage AND your healing much stronger. The effect also works on both bars instead of Bound which only gives you the buffs on 1 bar only. Not only that but you get a fat burst heal if you land the bow proc, whereas Bound doesn't have any extra effect upon activation. The icing on the cake is it lasts 60 seconds, and once you build up to 5 stacks you don't even have to use it right away, whereas Bound only lasts 10s before disappearing, forcing you to build the stacks again. Oh, did I also mention that you can get 2 stacks with a heavy attack with Relentless Focus?

And let's not even talk about passives lmao. There is literally an entire skill line with 3 useless passives if you don't have a daedric summoning ability slotted.

No proc Cyrodiil is not a thing anymore, if it was the standard for pvp you might have a argument for the class imbalance, but it's not, and probably wont be again since it was such a good idea and they hate good ideas. You can not use this as a metric for balance since it is not indicative of standard gameplay nor is it indicative of standard builds.

Something you keep doing is only comparing this class to NB which I find odd, NB isn't the only stam class out there and while they are strong they are fairly easy to deal with once you know they are their. which makes me think you have some obession with the NB class and how stam sorcs does against it. Not a good lense to view greater balance through. But I'll humor it for a moment. Something surprise attack can't do is hit you with a Medium attack, enchant/poison proc, crystal, and Frenzied momentum at the same time. Stam sorc has all that potential front loaded into one hit, so yeah surprise attack does more, but it also doesn't get to hit you three to four times in one Global.

Also Bound does not pull the same numbers as Relentless because you already have a big burst hit with Crystal Weapon and the medium+enchant hit. Relentless is the NB burst tool so it is gonna hit hard. The burst tool for Stam Sorc is not Bound and generally I don't know anyone that uses Bound in pvp. Just like how a lot of stam blades don't use Mark Target or Killer's Blade. There is just more valuable abilities for the bar space. All classes have to deal with that.

You know what else NB doesn't have? Hurricane, a fantastic buff that adds damage and protection to our kit. They also dont have portable LOS summons, nor do they have as powerful burst heal options. Which you do have believe it or not in the form of Dark Deal, and Clannfear.

As far as your issue with passives go, welcome to every class. They all have conditional passives that are useless if you don't do whatever meets that condition. Often that means having a certain ability slotted. What you do have is amazing raw damage passives that freely increase physical and spell damage by a percent which is scaling. You have weapon and spell damage increases as well, and you have a lot of cost reduction and recovery passives.

All the possible logical arguments have been made to get you to see how stam sorc is in a good place for a stamina build, and you refuse to accept any of them. At this point there really is nothing left to talk about because pretty soon we will start talking in circles. So this is my last post on the subject. Good luck out there and goodbye.

I’m comparing this class to NB because it is the closest class to NB. Both of them are heavily designed to deal single target damage and have good escape tools. In fact, bound armament is a copy of relentless focus lol. Why is it that stamblade is much better at single target dmg than stamsorc in pvp? One may argue that stamsorc is better at aoe dmg, but literally all it has in its kit is hurricane and streak. Nothing in its offensive kit deals aoe dmg. Nb on the other hand has a class aoe spammable...

I could go on and on and compare stamsorc to other classes. But that would be a long essay which I don’t think you would want to read through it.

Again, I have acknowledged stamsorc’s burst potential. I literally said above that the class front loads dmg into 1s window. I know that lol. I used crystal weapon before it became meta. I made a thread telling people why it’s good back when ppl were saying it sucks. You don’t have to tell me that. What you are failing to look at is how easy it is to counter the skill. Any good player will hold block and mitigate most of the dmg. That is the issue with crystal weapon + vat 2h + whatever set ur using to amplify the one shot. You are using 1 build as an argument for the class’s effectiveness. My thread aims to expand all build paths. People who say stamsorc doesnt need a buff, then bring up 1 build to back their claim, are people who have little experience with the class, period.

rabidmyers

honestly i dont so much play stamsorc cuz of the speed but rather the aesthetic of the class, storms, wind, lighting etc like hell yeah yo!

hurricane alone is just so visibly pleasing to look at and i just love it man, and also i like to solo pve as well and stamsorc is basically the best at that

i do like to play brawly tho so im all for any change that might help stamsorc boost its defense/healing, the person who mentioned having major sav on crit surge is genius and it needs to happen can easily attach uhh prophecy to it just as well, literally no joking rn

just do it up

TBois

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

Because procs are free damage and does not indicate whether a stamsorc is strong or not. Use the same procs on a different class and they perform better. Look at no proc cyrodiil for example. Magsorc instantly became toptier and demonstrates a class imbalance issue that procs cannot solve.

The proposed changes will make sorc tankier. If you have played this class correctly you will know they struggle with bar space if they want to slot on damage. You cannot slot all 3 of the suggested changes on your bar. You will have to either give up damage for more survivability, or give up survivability for more damage. That's working as intended, but at the moment you are still squishier than other classes despite slotting more survivability abilities. The proposed changes will help players who do not want to use rally, players who just want to face tank by sacrificing dmg, or players who simply want more healing.

That is entirely false thinking. No class stands on its own without gear and gear effects. Proc or no procs. Thats never going away from this game. All builds rely on their gear more then anything else. Even classes are secondary to the balance discussion between stamina and magicka sets. Plus procs are currently active in all pvp again.

Stam sorc has always been something of a berserker in the game, The design was always fast with high damage, and again, it's in one of the best states it has been in in years. And by the way, I have been playing sorcs since the game's beta and not just sorcs but many classes. All of them struggle with bar space to a degree, Its not just sorc's and also sorcs have some of the best tool kits in the game to work with as well. Passives are some of the best, and they have not just one but two unblockable stuns. Of all the things that might need help right now it's not them. .

The no proc cyrodiil test was a prime example of class imbalance because everyone was stuck with 15 sets and every competitive player was in the same setup. Yet some classes performed much better than others. So no, it's not false thinking because when you have 2 classes wearing the same gear setup, the class with better design wins.

Stamsorc design is a failure. It's fast but the damage isn't there to back it up. Let's compare their 2 class offensive abilities, Crystal Weapon & Bound, vs stamblade's Surprise Attack & Relentless Focus:

1) Crystal Weapon: Reduces armor by 1000, reduces cost of next non ulti ability by 10%
Surprise Attack: Applies Sundered effect which reduces armor by 2.9k, stuns enemies from flank and applies Off balance

Surprise Attack has 3 effects and is a true spammable compared to crystal weapon. This alone makes it much better than Crystal Weapon as a spammable. Not only that but it lets you save a bar slot because you have a built in stun that also sets enemies off balance, which is huge because it increases your medium attack damage by 75%. Crystal Weapon is only better than Surprise Attack because you can use it as a delayed burst, but the damage of Crystal Weapon isn't as good as other delayed bursts like Haunting Curse or sub assault or blastbones. It's in a limbo where it can't decide what it wants to be. Don't get me wrong I still love Crystal Weapon, but the added effects it gives isn't noteworthy at all compared to other class spammables.

2) Bound Armaments: 8% max stam, 10% la damage while slotted. When activated deals X dmg every 0.3s
Relentless Focus: 10% crit dmg AND healing. When activated deals X dmg and HEALS for 33% while in melee

Literally just looking at these 2 abilities you can see Relentless Focus is superior. You have to build up to 5 stacks to get the proc, but the damage is also better, making it a better burst ability than Bound. It also gives you 10% crit dmg and healing, making your damage AND your healing much stronger. The effect also works on both bars instead of Bound which only gives you the buffs on 1 bar only. Not only that but you get a fat burst heal if you land the bow proc, whereas Bound doesn't have any extra effect upon activation. The icing on the cake is it lasts 60 seconds, and once you build up to 5 stacks you don't even have to use it right away, whereas Bound only lasts 10s before disappearing, forcing you to build the stacks again. Oh, did I also mention that you can get 2 stacks with a heavy attack with Relentless Focus?

And let's not even talk about passives lmao. There is literally an entire skill line with 3 useless passives if you don't have a daedric summoning ability slotted.

No proc Cyrodiil is not a thing anymore, if it was the standard for pvp you might have a argument for the class imbalance, but it's not, and probably wont be again since it was such a good idea and they hate good ideas. You can not use this as a metric for balance since it is not indicative of standard gameplay nor is it indicative of standard builds.

Something you keep doing is only comparing this class to NB which I find odd, NB isn't the only stam class out there and while they are strong they are fairly easy to deal with once you know they are their. which makes me think you have some obession with the NB class and how stam sorcs does against it. Not a good lense to view greater balance through. But I'll humor it for a moment. Something surprise attack can't do is hit you with a Medium attack, enchant/poison proc, crystal, and Frenzied momentum at the same time. Stam sorc has all that potential front loaded into one hit, so yeah surprise attack does more, but it also doesn't get to hit you three to four times in one Global.

Also Bound does not pull the same numbers as Relentless because you already have a big burst hit with Crystal Weapon and the medium+enchant hit. Relentless is the NB burst tool so it is gonna hit hard. The burst tool for Stam Sorc is not Bound and generally I don't know anyone that uses Bound in pvp. Just like how a lot of stam blades don't use Mark Target or Killer's Blade. There is just more valuable abilities for the bar space. All classes have to deal with that.

You know what else NB doesn't have? Hurricane, a fantastic buff that adds damage and protection to our kit. They also dont have portable LOS summons, nor do they have as powerful burst heal options. Which you do have believe it or not in the form of Dark Deal, and Clannfear.

As far as your issue with passives go, welcome to every class. They all have conditional passives that are useless if you don't do whatever meets that condition. Often that means having a certain ability slotted. What you do have is amazing raw damage passives that freely increase physical and spell damage by a percent which is scaling. You have weapon and spell damage increases as well, and you have a lot of cost reduction and recovery passives.

All the possible logical arguments have been made to get you to see how stam sorc is in a good place for a stamina build, and you refuse to accept any of them. At this point there really is nothing left to talk about because pretty soon we will start talking in circles. So this is my last post on the subject. Good luck out there and goodbye.

No, all the “logical arguments” I’ve seen from this thread are those that claim stamsorcs are god tier, yet they base their claim on 1 type of pvp, or someone else’ experience on the class. I even went ahead and argued objectively. But let me just get subjective and “brag” for a moment.

I literally do 1vX on the daily, fighting from mediocre players to average players in cyrodiil. I also spend a large amount of time dueling top tier players in stormhaven. I also spend a lot of time doing BGs going against premades and top MMR sweatlords on PC NA. You know, the ones that stack all the cheese they can to win. People call me one of, if not the best stamsorc on PC NA, because I mained it for 3 years and played it through its rough times. I’ve helped a lot of players who want to get into this class because I’m always being recommended by the people who gave me that title. I know the class is in a better place, you don’t have to tell me that. But i also know it isnt better than what people are claiming it to be. Just because you see stamsorcs getting top K/D in some BG match doesn’t mean it’s good. It is still by far the worst stamina class in the game. It’s only saving grace is the fact that it can streak, but that’s it. The damage is weaker than other classes, and it can’t face tank like other classes. You are seriously telling me, a 3 year stamsorc main who’s done every single pvp type in this game, that my class is good? What a joke. If you are on PC NA, let’s do some duos. I wanna see just how good you are.

I'll stand behind this. This is not ***. Static Wave is one of the best stam sorcs in this game and has been for a while.

Stam sorc is a mess. You gimp yourself if you try to build into its passives and not use cheese. I mean if zos wanted you to actually have build diversity in pvp on stam sorc they would know that the wrecking blow morph has a different location check when the cast time ends than dizzy swing. So if you want to use a different morph than the stun and off balance from dizzy swing to get the empower light attack buff from wrecking blow, which stacks with Bound armoramemts 10% light attack increase, you have to deal with a skill that is harder to use for no *** reason. It's been a long ass time since they changed to dizzy swing location checks to be more forgiving. Why has this not been fixed? [snip]

https://youtu.be/8C6K7eDnk3g

[Edited to remove bashing]

HankTwo

I'm very wary of people that appear to only play one class, or at least have a very strong focus on their main and never switch it, in any class balance discussions. There is simply no way to not be biased, and from what I've seen, the OP seems to only ever post buff threads on the forum and gameplay videos on youtube about stamsorc, never another class. This doesn't automatically mean all arguments are invalid, but it shows that there is an agenda - even if only subconsciously - towards one class and not general class balance.

For example, the OP gave people the valid advice that they should play stamsorcs for themselves to see how strong the class is:

StaticWave wrote: »

I encourage people to play stamsorc for at least 3 months in all aspects of PvP (1v1, 1vX, smallscale, GvG) and try multiple playstyles (1-shot, roller sorc, brawler sorc, support/disruptor sorc, etc.) to fully grasp the strengths and weaknesses of this class. Not to undermine anyone, but I think saying that you “see stamsorcs getting top kills in BGs” or how “god tier and overpowered” they are without providing any reasonable evidence just shows a lack of experience for this class.

But at the same time he talkes about how stamblades are stronger just by 'looking at their class kit', a big contradiction imo:

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit.

So I'm wondering, @StaticWave , have you followed your own advice and actually played stamblade for 'at least 3 months in all aspects of PvP (1v1, 1vX, smallscale, GvG) and tried multiple playstyles (1-shot, roller NB, brawler NB, disruptor NB, etc.) to fully grasp the strengths and weaknesses of this class' in recent patches?

The one thing I can say from my own point of view (because the only sorc I actively played myself was hybrid), is that stamsorc seems to be the current flavour of the month on PC EU, I duelled both strong stamsorcs and stamblades recently and they were pretty comparable in power, and a friend of mine who is a stamden main made a new stamsorc build for this patch (he played the class before tho) and said he thinks its strong as well.

master_vanargand

Sorc is strong, so don't need buff.

universal_wrath

HankTwo wrote: »

I'm very wary of people that appear to only play one class, or at least have a very strong focus on their main and never switch it, in any class balance discussions. There is simply no way to not be biased, and from what I've seen, the OP seems to only ever post buff threads on the forum and gameplay videos on youtube about stamsorc, never another class. This doesn't automatically mean all arguments are invalid, but it shows that there is an agenda - even if only subconsciously - towards one class and not general class balance.

For example, the OP gave people the valid advice that they should play stamsorcs for themselves to see how strong the class is:

StaticWave wrote: »

I encourage people to play stamsorc for at least 3 months in all aspects of PvP (1v1, 1vX, smallscale, GvG) and try multiple playstyles (1-shot, roller sorc, brawler sorc, support/disruptor sorc, etc.) to fully grasp the strengths and weaknesses of this class. Not to undermine anyone, but I think saying that you “see stamsorcs getting top kills in BGs” or how “god tier and overpowered” they are without providing any reasonable evidence just shows a lack of experience for this class.

But at the same time he talkes about how stamblades are stronger just by 'looking at their class kit', a big contradiction imo:

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit.

So I'm wondering, @StaticWave , have you followed your own advice and actually played stamblade for 'at least 3 months in all aspects of PvP (1v1, 1vX, smallscale, GvG) and tried multiple playstyles (1-shot, roller NB, brawler NB, disruptor NB, etc.) to fully grasp the strengths and weaknesses of this class' in recent patches?

The one thing I can say from my own point of view (because the only sorc I actively played myself was hybrid), is that stamsorc seems to be the current flavour of the month on PC EU, I duelled both strong stamsorcs and stamblades recently and they were pretty comparable in power, and a friend of mine who is a stamden main made a new stamsorc build for this patch (he played the class before tho) and said he thinks its strong as well.

I was playing since game launch on ps4 and I usualy main 1 shot builds on stamsorcs and stamblade. I play different playstyle on on other classes mainly magdens magsorcs, and stamplars. When I don't use procs I'm more likely to kill targets on my stamblade than my stamsorc, I even survive more. When I play against ball groups with my group, I'm the first to die as stamsorc. All focuse and heat on my because my healing is low and I'm not as tanky as other classes, basically free kill. I can solo and pick my targets on stamblades because I can cloak. When I play stamsorc, everyone can hear and see my big moving AOE skill hurricane. Everyone seems to have a counter to my streaks away, either too many dots dying mid streaks, *** closer that are cheaper than streak, or range attacks. Very few people I play against as stamblade use counters to stealth.

I have tried playing brawler on stamsorc in BGs, but healing and resistance are weak compare to other classes. Surge only proc on crit for around 1500 heals and my vigor is around 1500-1800 and I recieve more than 3000-4000 damge each second. Other classes can either out my damage with their hots, or use thier burst heals to negate all my damage done in less than a sec. My dark deal is intureptable all the times and I can only use dawnbreaker as an offensive ultimate that misses 35% of the time. I play withput procs and I kill only around 5 people per BG and only deal arpund 500-800k, I play procs and I kill more than 10 and deal easy atleast 1mil damage. Before If play no proc, I have to sacrific recovery and survivability to boost weapon damage for max damge output. when i play proc, I sacrifice nothing. Now with current nerfs to procs, I also sacrifice recovery and surivivabilty to increase proc damage. I lose too much either and I can only play 1 shot builds no matter how many builds I try. I have tried to play bow, 2h, dauls, sword and shields and I even played with all destro staves try different kind of builds. Only spin to win or excutioner kill steals work as stamsorc.

universal_wrath

Stamblade vs stamsorc:
1-Stamblade increased critical chance, damage and healing.

2- incap is cheap, high damage, great buff, and stun at 120 ulti., only misses on dodge roll. Dawnbreaker is 105 misses a lot with terrain, speed fight and ping, but aoe damage and good dot.

3- stamblade has more penetrarion than stam sorc, but slightly let weapon damage.

4- surprise attack is better utility and spammable than crystal weapon. Most player don't even use crystal weapon as spammable but delayed burst, meaning you are either using flurry or dizzy. You cannot use amy other weapons unlike stamblade.

5- stamblade has better resource management
Stamsorc need a deadric ability slotted to bemefit from recovery and it has to be double bar. Dark deal for resource managent is only good if you are too far from you target because it can be inturepted, when inturepted, you lose more than you gain from using dark deal and the skill goes on cooldown.

6- very few people use counters to nightblade escape tools unlike stamsorc streak, you recieve 0 damage when cloak or you can teleport to your shadow with 0 counter measurement to that skill. Many players use gap closers, dots, range attacks or are just too fast they catch up to you.

7- stamblade has no burst heal, stam sorc has burst heal that require 2 bars space and is unreliable because it is a pet that can die very easily.

xylena_lazarow

"I'm new to PvP, should I play my stamsorc or stamblade?" As much as I enjoy my stamsorc, my answer to them in this meta is stamblade without question. Lost in this thread is the OP's very good point about Surge, which was indirectly nerfed pretty hard when they blanket nerfed crit chance, and was never buffed to compensate.

ketsparrowhawk

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

You are using BGs as the sole basis to claim that stamsorc is "cheesy". BG is not the only place to form an opinion on a class's strength and weakness. It's part of it, but not the whole picture. Your build will get shredded in Cyrodiil where fights happen on a larger scale and damage is exponentially more. In a 1v1, your build will also get hard countered by experienced players who know how to deal with a stamsorc. You simply do not have the survivability, period. So no, "most likely" here applies to you and everyone who thinks about trying this playstyle.

Back to your point, BG is also not a good place to form an opinion on stamsorc because you are doing a 4v4v4, with dedicated healers and other DPS that cover your weaknesses. I don't really care what K/D you have. It doesn't prove anything in the grand scheme of things because in an actual sweaty BG, the weakest team will usually get farmed by the other 2 stronger ones. You landing more K/D doesn't mean anything. Even in a solo Q match, you will most likely run into less experienced players, and killing them also give a high K/D, which every class can do. Try stamsorc in 1v1, smallscale, 1vX, GvG, then you'll see why stamsorc is weak.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit. They have more damage passives, a cheap class ultimate that amplifies damage, the 2nd strongest spammable in the game that applies minor breach + off balance + stuns, class major breach, 2 HoTs that are easy to proc, and Major Resolve that can be procced off doing damage or using a Shadow ability. These stacked passives and dmg amplifiers literally allow them to build full tank and can still out damage a stamsorc in full dmg gear, while being MUCH tankier. If they go full damage, then they simply outclass stamsorc in every way. This is tested countless times by stamblade and stamsorc mains and I can always post screenshots to prove this. In a real fight, shade + cloak is much better at shaking off enemies in pursuit than streak, because you literally disappear from the screen. Why do you think so many people play stamblade?

For me it is the only place to form an opinion because that's the only mode of PVP I engage in. Buffing stamSorcs survivability will make them even more annoying in BG's. Their survivability is already excellent. You have one GCD to try and burst a sorc down before they're out of range and resources restored.

Interesting that stamblade is objectively better based on their toolkit, yet they don't hold a candle to stamSorcs in BG's. If they were objectively superior then I would expect them to outperform stamSorcs in ALL PvP modes. But they don't. 1v1 and solo open world is where stamblades excel, which seems right to me. Stamsorcs are superior in other scenarios (small+large scale groups). Not all specs need to be equally matched in all scenarios.

I don't do much Cyro but I've seen plenty of Fengrush streams where he is having great success using a glass cannon build in large-scale fights. He doesn't get shredded because he just STREAKS AWAY as soon as someone light attacks him. And if you want to talk about the group support you get in a BG.. that's nothing compared to the support that's present in large scale cyro fights.

When I stop seeing stamSorcs at the top of almost every BG then maybe I'll jump on the "buff sorc" train. I did some duo BG's just last night and that experience only reinforced my opinion that stamSorcs are juuuust fine. These were very high MMR matches with several names I'm sure you'd recognize.

Ok so you only engage in 1 PvP mode yet you are speaking about stamsorc as if you know everything about it... lol. Like I said, you should try all other PvP modes and not just look at someone doing it and assuming it works. Just because someone makes it work doesn't mean it is good. It just means that player is good.

I'm speaking on behalf of the game mode I engage in. I don't need to know all about the dynamics of Cyro to know how buffing stamsorc would affect BG's.

StaticWave

HankTwo wrote: »

I'm very wary of people that appear to only play one class, or at least have a very strong focus on their main and never switch it, in any class balance discussions. There is simply no way to not be biased, and from what I've seen, the OP seems to only ever post buff threads on the forum and gameplay videos on youtube about stamsorc, never another class. This doesn't automatically mean all arguments are invalid, but it shows that there is an agenda - even if only subconsciously - towards one class and not general class balance.

For example, the OP gave people the valid advice that they should play stamsorcs for themselves to see how strong the class is:

StaticWave wrote: »

I encourage people to play stamsorc for at least 3 months in all aspects of PvP (1v1, 1vX, smallscale, GvG) and try multiple playstyles (1-shot, roller sorc, brawler sorc, support/disruptor sorc, etc.) to fully grasp the strengths and weaknesses of this class. Not to undermine anyone, but I think saying that you “see stamsorcs getting top kills in BGs” or how “god tier and overpowered” they are without providing any reasonable evidence just shows a lack of experience for this class.

But at the same time he talkes about how stamblades are stronger just by 'looking at their class kit', a big contradiction imo:

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit.

So I'm wondering, @StaticWave , have you followed your own advice and actually played stamblade for 'at least 3 months in all aspects of PvP (1v1, 1vX, smallscale, GvG) and tried multiple playstyles (1-shot, roller NB, brawler NB, disruptor NB, etc.) to fully grasp the strengths and weaknesses of this class' in recent patches?

The one thing I can say from my own point of view (because the only sorc I actively played myself was hybrid), is that stamsorc seems to be the current flavour of the month on PC EU, I duelled both strong stamsorcs and stamblades recently and they were pretty comparable in power, and a friend of mine who is a stamden main made a new stamsorc build for this patch (he played the class before tho) and said he thinks its strong as well.

I’m biased in the sense that I want stamsorc to be on equal footing as other classes in terms of survivability without depending on streak. I want to try other playstyles without having to rely on streak when crap hits the fan.

My nightblade is a rank 30 alliance and I spent one year maining it. I’ve done BGs, 1v1s, 1vXs, and smallscale with my friends on the nightblade. My stamsorc, which is currently a grand overlord, is played more because I like the speed. When the next midyear mayhem comes I will be getting back on my nightblade to get it to at least rank 40.

You can think I’m biased but I have provided evidence why nb or any class does better than sorc. Stamsorc without streak in cyrodiil is worse than stamdk or stamplar.

StaticWave

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

You are using BGs as the sole basis to claim that stamsorc is "cheesy". BG is not the only place to form an opinion on a class's strength and weakness. It's part of it, but not the whole picture. Your build will get shredded in Cyrodiil where fights happen on a larger scale and damage is exponentially more. In a 1v1, your build will also get hard countered by experienced players who know how to deal with a stamsorc. You simply do not have the survivability, period. So no, "most likely" here applies to you and everyone who thinks about trying this playstyle.

Back to your point, BG is also not a good place to form an opinion on stamsorc because you are doing a 4v4v4, with dedicated healers and other DPS that cover your weaknesses. I don't really care what K/D you have. It doesn't prove anything in the grand scheme of things because in an actual sweaty BG, the weakest team will usually get farmed by the other 2 stronger ones. You landing more K/D doesn't mean anything. Even in a solo Q match, you will most likely run into less experienced players, and killing them also give a high K/D, which every class can do. Try stamsorc in 1v1, smallscale, 1vX, GvG, then you'll see why stamsorc is weak.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit. They have more damage passives, a cheap class ultimate that amplifies damage, the 2nd strongest spammable in the game that applies minor breach + off balance + stuns, class major breach, 2 HoTs that are easy to proc, and Major Resolve that can be procced off doing damage or using a Shadow ability. These stacked passives and dmg amplifiers literally allow them to build full tank and can still out damage a stamsorc in full dmg gear, while being MUCH tankier. If they go full damage, then they simply outclass stamsorc in every way. This is tested countless times by stamblade and stamsorc mains and I can always post screenshots to prove this. In a real fight, shade + cloak is much better at shaking off enemies in pursuit than streak, because you literally disappear from the screen. Why do you think so many people play stamblade?

For me it is the only place to form an opinion because that's the only mode of PVP I engage in. Buffing stamSorcs survivability will make them even more annoying in BG's. Their survivability is already excellent. You have one GCD to try and burst a sorc down before they're out of range and resources restored.

Interesting that stamblade is objectively better based on their toolkit, yet they don't hold a candle to stamSorcs in BG's. If they were objectively superior then I would expect them to outperform stamSorcs in ALL PvP modes. But they don't. 1v1 and solo open world is where stamblades excel, which seems right to me. Stamsorcs are superior in other scenarios (small+large scale groups). Not all specs need to be equally matched in all scenarios.

I don't do much Cyro but I've seen plenty of Fengrush streams where he is having great success using a glass cannon build in large-scale fights. He doesn't get shredded because he just STREAKS AWAY as soon as someone light attacks him. And if you want to talk about the group support you get in a BG.. that's nothing compared to the support that's present in large scale cyro fights.

When I stop seeing stamSorcs at the top of almost every BG then maybe I'll jump on the "buff sorc" train. I did some duo BG's just last night and that experience only reinforced my opinion that stamSorcs are juuuust fine. These were very high MMR matches with several names I'm sure you'd recognize.

Ok so you only engage in 1 PvP mode yet you are speaking about stamsorc as if you know everything about it... lol. Like I said, you should try all other PvP modes and not just look at someone doing it and assuming it works. Just because someone makes it work doesn't mean it is good. It just means that player is good.

I'm speaking on behalf of the game mode I engage in. I don't need to know all about the dynamics of Cyro to know how buffing stamsorc would affect BG's.

Okay so you would know that DoTs screw over stamsorcs and before this patch you could somewhat counter it by building HP regen, but not anymore. So every premade wears 3-4 DoT procs and stack multiple DoTs, making your streak literally useless. Meanwhile templar, warden, necro can purge or heal thru it, NB can cloak it, which means dk and sorc get screwed over by the DoTs. So now the only way to survive is to play a one shot build then run away leaving your team to 3v4 the other. Do you see the problem here?

ketsparrowhawk

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

You are using BGs as the sole basis to claim that stamsorc is "cheesy". BG is not the only place to form an opinion on a class's strength and weakness. It's part of it, but not the whole picture. Your build will get shredded in Cyrodiil where fights happen on a larger scale and damage is exponentially more. In a 1v1, your build will also get hard countered by experienced players who know how to deal with a stamsorc. You simply do not have the survivability, period. So no, "most likely" here applies to you and everyone who thinks about trying this playstyle.

Back to your point, BG is also not a good place to form an opinion on stamsorc because you are doing a 4v4v4, with dedicated healers and other DPS that cover your weaknesses. I don't really care what K/D you have. It doesn't prove anything in the grand scheme of things because in an actual sweaty BG, the weakest team will usually get farmed by the other 2 stronger ones. You landing more K/D doesn't mean anything. Even in a solo Q match, you will most likely run into less experienced players, and killing them also give a high K/D, which every class can do. Try stamsorc in 1v1, smallscale, 1vX, GvG, then you'll see why stamsorc is weak.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit. They have more damage passives, a cheap class ultimate that amplifies damage, the 2nd strongest spammable in the game that applies minor breach + off balance + stuns, class major breach, 2 HoTs that are easy to proc, and Major Resolve that can be procced off doing damage or using a Shadow ability. These stacked passives and dmg amplifiers literally allow them to build full tank and can still out damage a stamsorc in full dmg gear, while being MUCH tankier. If they go full damage, then they simply outclass stamsorc in every way. This is tested countless times by stamblade and stamsorc mains and I can always post screenshots to prove this. In a real fight, shade + cloak is much better at shaking off enemies in pursuit than streak, because you literally disappear from the screen. Why do you think so many people play stamblade?

For me it is the only place to form an opinion because that's the only mode of PVP I engage in. Buffing stamSorcs survivability will make them even more annoying in BG's. Their survivability is already excellent. You have one GCD to try and burst a sorc down before they're out of range and resources restored.

Interesting that stamblade is objectively better based on their toolkit, yet they don't hold a candle to stamSorcs in BG's. If they were objectively superior then I would expect them to outperform stamSorcs in ALL PvP modes. But they don't. 1v1 and solo open world is where stamblades excel, which seems right to me. Stamsorcs are superior in other scenarios (small+large scale groups). Not all specs need to be equally matched in all scenarios.

I don't do much Cyro but I've seen plenty of Fengrush streams where he is having great success using a glass cannon build in large-scale fights. He doesn't get shredded because he just STREAKS AWAY as soon as someone light attacks him. And if you want to talk about the group support you get in a BG.. that's nothing compared to the support that's present in large scale cyro fights.

When I stop seeing stamSorcs at the top of almost every BG then maybe I'll jump on the "buff sorc" train. I did some duo BG's just last night and that experience only reinforced my opinion that stamSorcs are juuuust fine. These were very high MMR matches with several names I'm sure you'd recognize.

Ok so you only engage in 1 PvP mode yet you are speaking about stamsorc as if you know everything about it... lol. Like I said, you should try all other PvP modes and not just look at someone doing it and assuming it works. Just because someone makes it work doesn't mean it is good. It just means that player is good.

I'm speaking on behalf of the game mode I engage in. I don't need to know all about the dynamics of Cyro to know how buffing stamsorc would affect BG's.

Okay so you would know that DoTs screw over stamsorcs and before this patch you could somewhat counter it by building HP regen, but not anymore. So every premade wears 3-4 DoT procs and stack multiple DoTs, making your streak literally useless. Meanwhile templar, warden, necro can purge or heal thru it, NB can cloak it, which means dk and sorc get screwed over by the DoTs. So now the only way to survive is to play a one shot build then run away leaving your team to 3v4 the other. Do you see the problem here?

I don't see the problem when despite all of that stamSorc still gets exceptional results (especially compared to NB) and they are very popular.. too popular imo. You don't have to run away from your team. It's easy to kite and still be in the mix. The sorcs that abandon their team do it because they can, not because they have to. NB's are the worst about that tho. I honestly have not found dots to be an issue in BGs.

I have 13 characters. Most with maxed MMR. I play with all of them regularly. Stamsorc is one of the easiest-to-play specs on my roster. If I'm looking for a confidence boost, I jump on my stamSorc because I know it'll be a breeze and I'll get tons of kills and probably 0 deaths. I'd buff DK's, NB's and Templars long before a stam or magsorc.

StaticWave

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

You are using BGs as the sole basis to claim that stamsorc is "cheesy". BG is not the only place to form an opinion on a class's strength and weakness. It's part of it, but not the whole picture. Your build will get shredded in Cyrodiil where fights happen on a larger scale and damage is exponentially more. In a 1v1, your build will also get hard countered by experienced players who know how to deal with a stamsorc. You simply do not have the survivability, period. So no, "most likely" here applies to you and everyone who thinks about trying this playstyle.

Back to your point, BG is also not a good place to form an opinion on stamsorc because you are doing a 4v4v4, with dedicated healers and other DPS that cover your weaknesses. I don't really care what K/D you have. It doesn't prove anything in the grand scheme of things because in an actual sweaty BG, the weakest team will usually get farmed by the other 2 stronger ones. You landing more K/D doesn't mean anything. Even in a solo Q match, you will most likely run into less experienced players, and killing them also give a high K/D, which every class can do. Try stamsorc in 1v1, smallscale, 1vX, GvG, then you'll see why stamsorc is weak.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit. They have more damage passives, a cheap class ultimate that amplifies damage, the 2nd strongest spammable in the game that applies minor breach + off balance + stuns, class major breach, 2 HoTs that are easy to proc, and Major Resolve that can be procced off doing damage or using a Shadow ability. These stacked passives and dmg amplifiers literally allow them to build full tank and can still out damage a stamsorc in full dmg gear, while being MUCH tankier. If they go full damage, then they simply outclass stamsorc in every way. This is tested countless times by stamblade and stamsorc mains and I can always post screenshots to prove this. In a real fight, shade + cloak is much better at shaking off enemies in pursuit than streak, because you literally disappear from the screen. Why do you think so many people play stamblade?

For me it is the only place to form an opinion because that's the only mode of PVP I engage in. Buffing stamSorcs survivability will make them even more annoying in BG's. Their survivability is already excellent. You have one GCD to try and burst a sorc down before they're out of range and resources restored.

Interesting that stamblade is objectively better based on their toolkit, yet they don't hold a candle to stamSorcs in BG's. If they were objectively superior then I would expect them to outperform stamSorcs in ALL PvP modes. But they don't. 1v1 and solo open world is where stamblades excel, which seems right to me. Stamsorcs are superior in other scenarios (small+large scale groups). Not all specs need to be equally matched in all scenarios.

I don't do much Cyro but I've seen plenty of Fengrush streams where he is having great success using a glass cannon build in large-scale fights. He doesn't get shredded because he just STREAKS AWAY as soon as someone light attacks him. And if you want to talk about the group support you get in a BG.. that's nothing compared to the support that's present in large scale cyro fights.

When I stop seeing stamSorcs at the top of almost every BG then maybe I'll jump on the "buff sorc" train. I did some duo BG's just last night and that experience only reinforced my opinion that stamSorcs are juuuust fine. These were very high MMR matches with several names I'm sure you'd recognize.

Ok so you only engage in 1 PvP mode yet you are speaking about stamsorc as if you know everything about it... lol. Like I said, you should try all other PvP modes and not just look at someone doing it and assuming it works. Just because someone makes it work doesn't mean it is good. It just means that player is good.

I'm speaking on behalf of the game mode I engage in. I don't need to know all about the dynamics of Cyro to know how buffing stamsorc would affect BG's.

Okay so you would know that DoTs screw over stamsorcs and before this patch you could somewhat counter it by building HP regen, but not anymore. So every premade wears 3-4 DoT procs and stack multiple DoTs, making your streak literally useless. Meanwhile templar, warden, necro can purge or heal thru it, NB can cloak it, which means dk and sorc get screwed over by the DoTs. So now the only way to survive is to play a one shot build then run away leaving your team to 3v4 the other. Do you see the problem here?

I don't see the problem when despite all of that stamSorc still gets exceptional results (especially compared to NB) and they are very popular.. too popular imo. You don't have to run away from your team. It's easy to kite and still be in the mix. The sorcs that abandon their team do it because they can, not because they have to. NB's are the worst about that tho. I honestly have not found dots to be an issue in BGs.

I have 13 characters. Most with maxed MMR. I play with all of them regularly. Stamsorc is one of the easiest-to-play specs on my roster. If I'm looking for a confidence boost, I jump on my stamSorc because I know it'll be a breeze and I'll get tons of kills and probably 0 deaths. I'd buff DK's, NB's and Templars long before a stam or magsorc.

Sigh.. They get exceptional results with proc sets. If you don't find DoTs an issue then I highly doubt we are playing the same game, sorry.

StaticWave

HankTwo wrote: »

I'm very wary of people that appear to only play one class, or at least have a very strong focus on their main and never switch it, in any class balance discussions. There is simply no way to not be biased, and from what I've seen, the OP seems to only ever post buff threads on the forum and gameplay videos on youtube about stamsorc, never another class. This doesn't automatically mean all arguments are invalid, but it shows that there is an agenda - even if only subconsciously - towards one class and not general class balance.

For example, the OP gave people the valid advice that they should play stamsorcs for themselves to see how strong the class is:

StaticWave wrote: »

I encourage people to play stamsorc for at least 3 months in all aspects of PvP (1v1, 1vX, smallscale, GvG) and try multiple playstyles (1-shot, roller sorc, brawler sorc, support/disruptor sorc, etc.) to fully grasp the strengths and weaknesses of this class. Not to undermine anyone, but I think saying that you “see stamsorcs getting top kills in BGs” or how “god tier and overpowered” they are without providing any reasonable evidence just shows a lack of experience for this class.

But at the same time he talkes about how stamblades are stronger just by 'looking at their class kit', a big contradiction imo:

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.

"Most likely" for you maybe. I get better K/D's on my stamsorc than any other char.. so much so that I don't even enjoy playing it anymore because it feels cheesy. I have mained this char at various points in the past and have a good understanding of the class. BG's are the clearest way to see a spec's performance.. and in the solo Q there are all kinds of group comps and a healer is not guaranteed. What evidence is better than just seeing the scoreboard at the end of a BG? Stamblade is superior if you say so, but that's a hard pill to swallow when you see stamsorcs out-perform stamblades again and again and again in BG's. Of course, I do almost nothing but BG's so that is my bias. And I do not think every spec should be equally matched 1v1.

Stamblade is objectively superior just by looking at their class kit.

So I'm wondering, @StaticWave , have you followed your own advice and actually played stamblade for 'at least 3 months in all aspects of PvP (1v1, 1vX, smallscale, GvG) and tried multiple playstyles (1-shot, roller NB, brawler NB, disruptor NB, etc.) to fully grasp the strengths and weaknesses of this class' in recent patches?

The one thing I can say from my own point of view (because the only sorc I actively played myself was hybrid), is that stamsorc seems to be the current flavour of the month on PC EU, I duelled both strong stamsorcs and stamblades recently and they were pretty comparable in power, and a friend of mine who is a stamden main made a new stamsorc build for this patch (he played the class before tho) and said he thinks its strong as well.

Also since you claimed that I only ever seem to post buff threads, here is a thread I made asking for BoL nerf:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562927/ball-of-lightning-morph-needs-to-be-adjusted#latest

The other threads I asked for were mainly Bound Armaments rework:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/512264/please-improve-bound-armaments-for-pvp#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/518721/why-remove-light-attack-buff-from-ba-instead-of-changing-it-to-heavy-attack-pvp#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/502358/bound-armaments-in-need-of-fine-tuning-in-pvp#latest

And also a thread asking for a physical morph of overload:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436213/overload-needs-a-physical-damage-morph-for-stamsorcs#latest

All of these are suggested by multiple stamsorc mains whom I've asked for an opinion before making this thread. So tell me how I'm only asking for buffs?