Stamsorc's issue in PvP

vamp_emily

There is a legend about a Stam Sorc named "StamSorcGanker" that is running around killing everyone in GrayHost. DC fears him.

ResidentContrarian

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not really, I just happen to have 3 and know what's coming better than anyone else.

You have 3 stamsorcs? What PvP do you play them in?

Actually 3 and a 4th soon.

3 in PvP: 1 gank, 1 utilty/heal stamsorc, and one hybrid-experimental one that tilts stam [used for standard sorc build testing too], but I use to check for balance commenting on the patch (have a hybrid and mag/stam of every class in the game).

As for where they are used, BGs and Cyro in PC NA and PC EU.

StaticWave

L_Nici wrote: »

@StaticWave yes I do use Leviathan but my second set isn't with Critlines. I reach 7.2k Weapon Power, 23k Pen, 52% Critrate, 86% Critdamage, at 32k Stamina in running combat. I really have no issues of loosing anything, except my Health and resistences. The trick there is to not get hit, which proves a little difficult since the procs returned Cyros performance is totally screwed, way worse than before, no idea how they didn't see an increase in performance without procs...

Okay and what is your max hp? What buffs did you have with them?

StaticWave

L_Nici wrote: »

@StaticWave yes I do use Leviathan but my second set isn't with Critlines. I reach 7.2k Weapon Power, 23k Pen, 52% Critrate, 86% Critdamage, at 32k Stamina in running combat. I really have no issues of loosing anything, except my Health and resistences. The trick there is to not get hit, which proves a little difficult since the procs returned Cyros performance is totally screwed, way worse than before, no idea how they didn't see an increase in performance without procs...

Also what CP blue CP slottable did you use

katorga

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

They have the best mobility and sustain and some of the best delayed burst.

Correct, but the reason those stamsorcs do as well as they are right now is because they have 3 procs. Front-loading all their damage into that 1s offensive window, and running away when it fails to kill is what that playstyle is about. I know because I played it. What about other playstyles? There is simply not enough healing or tankiness for them to work. That’s basically saying I’m forced to play a kite build or I won’t be able to do as well. That isn’t what this thread is about.

That is the default mode for pvp, for every class, proc or no proc. That is the entire reason ZOS implemented some form of delay burst ability for every class.

Name of the game to confirm kills is to pile as much damage in a single GCD as you can.

L_Nici

Its amazing that all people suddenly want to know what I run. What does it help you? If you want to play successfull you need to create your own builds. Its not helpful to just copy a build from another player. My health is very low as I said already, its 25k which is a death sentence for most players. But as I said before I don't want to get hit in the first place. I play a lot with dodge and streak on short Burst Damage, which I do since over 5 years, so I am used to that. If you would have that build, you most likely wouldn't perform as good as some other builds could, but if you are me, who knows it in and out, then it works.

The buffs are just the standard ones, Major Brutality, the advantage of my second set, paired with a little bit of the third, while we had both our Scrolls in Temple. There is Bound Armaments on the bar which increases my Maxstat a little as well as Camouflaged Hunter for the Crit increase. Its basically the average number in running combat. If I would push it to the max I could reach even a little higher. Nothing in that setup is particulary extraordinary its mostly all skills people use since years on Stamsorcs.

StaticWave

L_Nici wrote: »

Its amazing that all people suddenly want to know what I run. What does it help you? If you want to play successfull you need to create your own builds. Its not helpful to just copy a build from another player. My health is very low as I said already, its 25k which is a death sentence for most players. But as I said before I don't want to get hit in the first place. I play a lot with dodge and streak on short Burst Damage, which I do since over 5 years, so I am used to that. If you would have that build, you most likely wouldn't perform as good as some other builds could, but if you are me, who knows it in and out, then it works.

The buffs are just the standard ones, Major Brutality, the advantage of my second set, paired with a little bit of the third, while we had both our Scrolls in Temple. There is Bound Armaments on the bar which increases my Maxstat a little as well as Camouflaged Hunter for the Crit increase. Its basically the average number in running combat. If I would push it to the max I could reach even a little higher. Nothing in that setup is particulary extraordinary its mostly all skills people use since years on Stamsorcs.

I'm asking for what you run because it's easy to inflate stats. You said you have 86% crit damage, that means you have to waste a slot for minor force, or be a khajiit. You also have to use 2 crit CPs, which means you either sacrifice deadly aim + master at arms or 2 defensive CPs. You said you have 23k pen, 32k max stam, and 7k weapon damage, but you never mentioned your stamina sustain, so that means you're lacking regen.

Not judging your build, but with that low resistances and max HP means you're a 1 shot target. You can't really stay in the fight too much, so crit surge is pretty much useless there. What I'm asking for are buffs to make stamsorc rely less on their speed and streak by having better heals, and relying less on niche builds to work.

L_Nici

Who uses defensive blue CPs? The only one worth a slot would be the Critresist one, the others have not enough of an impact since they only work for a specific damage source. And not even a Stamblade ganking me while I was typing managed to kill me faster than I killed it in return. My reg is 1.9k after taking a ressource and if I want to sustain I simply Dark Deal, because that is the actual use of Dark Deal, not the heal, but the Stam. You can easily play Stamsorcs without any investment in reg, because unlike many other classes you have an amazing Stamina return.

Also why would you want to not rely on the only unique thing Stamsorc has? Stamsorc is the fastest class out there, if you take that away, you don't need to play a Stamsorc.

StaticWave

For perspective, I have a full damage build and a full tank build. For the full damage build I use titanborn + clever alchemist + balorgh and vateshran 2h. It does insane damage, but super squishy and doesn't really hold up well against multiple players.

In contrast, my tank build with pariah + ironblood + balorgh + vat 2h has a lot less damage, but is so tanky I can sit and tank 4--5+ opponents. I die less, and have more opportunities to go for a kill. The damage is still there to kill most players, and the defense is amazing.

Why should I use build 1 when build 2 is flat out better? The only way to run build 1 is if I had the healing and damage mitigation of a stamcro, but I don't. That's why I'm suggesting buffs for stamsorc, as it lacks the healing to do well in a full damage build.

L_Nici

So you don't rely on class, but on Procs to survive. If that is so, why do you even play Stamsorc? Especially since you take exactly that away what makes Stamsorc great in that second build, its speed.... If you don't want to build on the strength of Stamsorc that same setup would be of much better use on anything else. Also Titanborn is a very bad idea if you die so fast on the offensive build. That means in the moment Titanborn gets its full strength you are basically dead already, would swap that set out.

Seriously, you complained that you can't reach the crit you like, if you want to sustain however you like, you are literally asking for an allrounder. But look at Necro and Warden, those are exactly what you wish for. If you play a class you agree to play out its strength and its weakness, and Stamsorcs strength is movement, obviously it gets weak if you take that away. Also if you die so fast on your offensive build, then you have to be more careful. You have great tools to evade damage, use them. From what I see here, you need to seriously readjust your way of playing. You just can't have everything unless you pay for a Warden or a Necro.

StaticWave

L_Nici wrote: »

So you don't rely on class, but on Procs. If that is so, why do you even play Stamsorc? Especially since you take exactly that away what makes Stamsorc great, its speed.... If you don't want to build on the strength of Stamsorc that same setup would be of much better use on anything else.

I have vat 2h proc in my build and it's not even an important proc. I only have it there because there are no good 2 piece weapons for front bar. Removing it will not hamper my performance on the class.

I play stamsorc because of the speed, but speed alone isn't enough to save you. DoTs don't care about speed, ranged builds don't care about speed. There are many factors that make speed irrelevant. Keep in mind, I still have maximum movement speed in 2 tank sets, so I'm both fast and tanky.

Building for damage and relying on speed doesn't work most of the time because when you get chased by 5+ people, you have a limited window to kill someone. During that window of offense, you are guaranteed to take dmg from 5+ people. If you aren't tanky enough to survive the damage, how are you going to deal any dmg at all when you're laying flat on the ground?

StaticWave

L_Nici wrote: »

Seriously, you complained that you can't reach the crit you like, if you want to sustain however you like, you are literally asking for an allrounder. But look at Necro and Warden, those are exactly what you wish for. If you play a class you agree to play out its strength and its weakness, and Stamsorcs strength is movement, obviously it gets weak if you take that away. Also if you die so fast on your offensive build, then you have to be more careful. You have great tools to evade damage, use them. From what I see here, you need to seriously readjust your way of playing.

I complain because ZOS nerfed crit chance for PvE, but failed to see why it affects PvP. It's not even the damage that I'm talking about, it's the crit surge ability. The proc condition requires dealing crit damage, but crit chance was heavily nerfed and you have to sacrifice too many things just to use 1 ability. NB is much tankier than stamsorc, and they also deal alot more crit damage. This makes zero sense idk why you can't see that.

Again, telling me to adjust my playstyle is meaningless. You're not discussing the thread's objective. Please stay on topic instead of telling me or anyone how to play the game.

L_Nici

The entire point of the game should be that you need to invest in what you want. It shouldn't just give everything to you, then we can scrap classes all together and just have everything for everyone. What do you think, why Procs are so hated by good players. They enable you to get insane Damage while not even taking a scratch in return.

And calling Vate 2h not important is a joke I hope...thats literally top meta on any 2h builds currently because its so *** broken. Wouldn't use it on a Stamsorc btw. actually I wouldn't use that on anything, because I despise sets that do all the work for you. I don't go into battle with the expectation, that my Procs will settle it, I know what my build can do and I use it accordingly. If you want to go all Proc fine, then do it, but don't complain that the Stamsorc aspect of the Stamsorc gets completely ruled out then.

StaticWave

L_Nici wrote: »

The entire point of the game should be that you need to invest in what you want. It shouldn't just give everything to you, then we can scrap classes all together and just have everything for everyone. What do you think, why Procs are so hated by good players. They enable you to get insane Damage while not even taking a scratch in return.

And calling Vate 2h not important is a joke I hope...thats literally top meta on any 2h builds currently because its so *** broken. Wouldn't use it on a Stamsorc btw. actually I wouldn't use that on anything, because I despise sets that do all the work for you. I don't go into battle with the expectation, that my Procs will settle it, I know what my build can do and I use it accordingly. If you want to go all Proc fine, then do it, but don't complain that the Stamsorc aspect of the Stamsorc gets completely ruled out then.

I'm not disagreeing... Idk why you are going on and on about this. You are not looking at my points lol.

StaticWave

And no, vate 2h isn't important for me. Sure it's nice to have, but i'm not gonna instantly lose kill potential without it.

Again, you seem to think that classes should just play in a certain way instead of branching out. I'm asking for diversification so stamsorc players can play other setups without being pigeon-holed into running a speedy 1 shot hit and run playstyle.

L_Nici

The problem is, yes Critchance got nerfed, but it didn't change much. Sure I would love more Crit, but the damage overall has risen which balances that out easily. If you have invested into Crit before, then you didn't even lose much. In PvP you don't really need over 50% Critchance, Critical Surge can only proc once a second and its very easy to crit once every second even with just 40% Critrate, which is what you almost have just by wearing medium armor. Everything above 50% is just not relevant anymore, since you have usually running Hurricane which deals auto hits every second on top of all the skills you use. So statistically you deal every second at least one crit at 50% Critrate, which is already enough.

Sure if you haven't invested into crit before and just expected it gets granted to you to all your proc stuff and all, then you are screwed. But honestly then you deserve the loss, its absolutely amazing that you finally can't have everything anymore, but have to think about what you want and how to use it, instead of just putting on 3 Procs and everything else just solves itself.

Personally I just needed to change 1 Set to Leviathan to get all my Crits back and even gained more than before. The set I used before granted me 2 lines of Crit as well, so I did just exchange 2 lines. Of course I changed the second set as well, but that wasn't needed, I could have easily stick with it, but I didn't want to.

StaticWave

L_Nici wrote: »

The problem is, yes Critchance got nerfed, but it didn't change much. Sure I would love more Crit, but the damage overall has risen which balances that out easily. If you have invested into Crit before, then you didn't even lose much. In PvP you don't really need over 50% Critchance, Critical Surge can only proc once a second and its very easy to crit once every second even with just 40% Critrate, which is what you almost have just by wearing medium armor. Everything above 50% is just not relevant anymore, since you have usually running Hurricane which deals auto hits every second on top of all the skills you use. So statistically you deal every second at least one crit at 50% Critrate, which is already enough.
Sure if you haven't invested into crit before and just expected it gets granted to you to all your proc stuff and all, then you are screwed. But honestly then you deserve the loss.
Personally I just needed to change 1 Set to Leviathan to get all my Crits back and even gained more than before. The set I used before granted me 2 lines of Crit as well, so I did just exchange 2 lines. Of course I changed the second set as well, but that wasn't needed, I could have easily stick with it, but I didn't want to.

It's not just crit chance. There are other issues with stamsorc's healing too. You can't even drop Rally right now because burst is just so high, and clanfear/darkdeal are too unreliable as a burst heal. Compounded by crit surge being less efficient, you lose a lot of survivability.

L_Nici

I am not using Rally. Sooo again wrong I guess. You are just to stuck in your specific way, which maybe isn't the right one for a Stamsorc that has everything you want to have.

katorga

L_Nici wrote: »

..........The trick there is to not get hit, which proves a little difficult since the procs returned Cyros performance is totally screwed, way worse than before, no idea how they didn't see an increase in performance without procs...

Oh the delicious irony. First ZOS removes RNG chance from proc sets to improve performance. That change created the perfect storm where you could front load burst on demand using proc sets. That outcome created such an outcry, that they changed procs to scale with ever-changing stat values creating a computational monstrosity way less "performant" than the original RNG chance calculation.

They did not see an increase in performance without procs because baseline cyrodiil performance is BAD. Scaling procs just made it worse.

StaticWave

L_Nici wrote: »

I am not using Rally. Sooo again wrong I guess. You are just to stuck in your specific way, which maybe isn't the right one for a Stamsorc that has everything you want to have.

Yea, I run into zergs and fight outnumbered a lot. Maybe we just play different.

xylena_lazarow

L_Nici wrote: »

I am not using Rally. Sooo again wrong I guess. You are just to stuck in your specific way, which maybe isn't the right one for a Stamsorc that has everything you want to have.

You can't deny that stamsorc lost a ton of versatility this patch.

katorga

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I am not using Rally. Sooo again wrong I guess. You are just to stuck in your specific way, which maybe isn't the right one for a Stamsorc that has everything you want to have.

You can't deny that stamsorc lost a ton of versatility this patch.

Did it ever have versatility?

There were some interesting proc builds, but mostly its been a 2H/Bow hit and run class for years.

L_Nici

Honestly I never thought Stamsorc was very variable, playing Stamsorc binds you on a specific style, you have no defensive Buffs for extended 1vX, you have no impressive Burst Heals, you have no purge. Stamsorc always had just its Speed and Damage, its the only class that never received a major buff nor a major Nerf, you could technically play Stamsorc the same way as 2014. In fact I did exactly that as Procs were disabled, Hundings+Spriggan easy, still worked as well as then.
Almost everything Stamsorc can do with procs another class can do better. Stamsorc is and will always be the annoying rocket (even though Wild Hunt and stuff like that strapped even that advantage) kiting you and hitting insane bursts.

MurderMostFoul

L_Nici wrote: »

Honestly I never thought Stamsorc was very variable, playing Stamsorc binds you on a specific style, you have no defensive Buffs for extended 1vX, you have no impressive Burst Heals, you have no purge. Stamsorc always had just its Speed and Damage, its the only class that never received a major buff nor a major Nerf, you could technically play Stamsorc the same way as 2014. In fact I did exactly that as Procs were disabled, Hundings+Spriggan easy, still worked as well as then.
Almost everything Stamsorc can do with procs another class can do better. Stamsorc is and will always be the annoying rocket (even though Wild Hunt and stuff like that strapped even that advantage) kiting you and hitting insane bursts.

I agree for the most part, but the addition of Crystal weapon definitely put Stamsorc burst on a new level.

TBois

L_Nici wrote: »

Honestly I never thought Stamsorc was very variable, playing Stamsorc binds you on a specific style, you have no defensive Buffs for extended 1vX, you have no impressive Burst Heals, you have no purge. Stamsorc always had just its Speed and Damage, its the only class that never received a major buff nor a major Nerf, you could technically play Stamsorc the same way as 2014. In fact I did exactly that as Procs were disabled, Hundings+Spriggan easy, still worked as well as then.
Almost everything Stamsorc can do with procs another class can do better. Stamsorc is and will always be the annoying rocket (even though Wild Hunt and stuff like that strapped even that advantage) kiting you and hitting insane bursts.

20% increase in health recovery used to allow for you to build a more brawler type playstyle than a pure glass cannon hit and run. Another way you could build this way was with Briarheart and Mechanical Acuity or another crit set. These are no longer good options. Health recovery nerf obviously hit our passive 20% increase in health recovery. Mechanical Acuity has a much longer down time (33% increase cooldown, from 15 to 21 sec) than it used to when it was very popular in pvp. Briarheart now scales with stam which means less heals unless you really build into stam (harder to get to the old threshold than wpn dmg scaling procs) or you build into dots and crit.

Edit: accidently double posted the quoted text

Extinct_Solo_Player

Yeah, its literally dumb for zos to nuke hp recov without compensating the classes that have passives which are specifically for hp regen. But oh well, guess we'll still be in the necro warden supremacy for a while. Which hasn't changed in the past 2 years lmao.

Sedare38

Stam sorcs have 0 issues.

techyeshic

If you wanted to have everything, you should have rolled stamden.

ThePianist

I suggest people to pick your battles carefully. Here in ps4 NA, you run against the same people over and over again, good ones too. You run against the same Nightblade or magsorc terrorizing one of your keeps. The same Nightblade or magsorc runs into someone like me, a semi-truck of a warden, and the fight takes ages that usually I run or they run the other way. It’s usually like this when Cyro is in a low population state. When each faction hits 2 bars each, it’s a different story.

Stamsorc is a bit tricky to 1vx these days. Don’t go challenge a 5 man or 20 man group and hope for the best. Most of the time, it won’t go well. It’s the same for me as a stamden. If I can’t kill you, I’ll waist an hour of your life trying to kill me but I’ll eventually go down if I get hit with 6 snipes, 3 frags, 5 meteors and 11,000 dizzy swings.

The best stamsorcs I’ve seen, play like they’re a magsorc. Go in with your burst combo, if it doesn’t work, streak out and utilize ult generation. I know that sounds boring but you can’t brawl against other classes for long.

xylena_lazarow

ThePianist wrote: »

I know that sounds boring but you can’t brawl against other classes for long.

That was the whole point of this thread, being pigeonholed into a narrow playstyle, even if they're good at it.