Please improve bound armaments for PvP

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StaticWave
StaticWave
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Stamsorc's offense has always felt lackluster. 2 patches ago you gave us Bound Armaments, the first actual stamina offensive morph that we've been asking for. On paper it feels pretty strong, but in practice it's just not good enough to consider slotting. Let's look at what the skill can do:

Bound armaments:
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Self
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters
Cost: 2295 Stamina

Arm yourself with the power of Oblivion for 40 seconds, causing your Light and Heavy Attacks to summon a Bound weapon for 10 seconds, up to 4 times. You can reactivate the ability for half cost to arm the weapons, causing them to strike your target for 381 Physical Damage every 0.3 seconds. While slotted, your Maximum Stamina is increased by 8% and Light Attack damage is increased by 10%.

Right off the bat we see that it's a near identical version of relentless focus, but less potent. On a practical, fully maxed out damage build, my tooltip for bound armaments is around 5k per dagger, which translates to around 1.2-1.8k damage on an actual player with ~22k resist. Compared to relentless focus, which can reach up to 12k damage against a player, we can see that bound armament falls short in terms of burst capability. The real value of this skill is the amount of passives and stat buffs, namely 8% light attack damage, 8% max stam, 20% hp/stam recovery, 2% weapon damage, and 8% max hp while the daggers are active. However, I think the active part of the skill needs a rework. It doesn't do as much damage as relentless focus, doesn't give 2 stacks when you heavy attack, and in general just feels lack luster even on a high damage build. This has led me to unslot it for ransack, which provides a better damage boost as well as minor protection, or camo hunter, which gives major savagery and minor berserk, a better damage amplifier than the 8% max stam.

I and many stamsorc mains have longed for a stamina offensive skill. We appreciate that you took the time to give us something, but please make the active part worth slotting, instead of it just being there for the passives. Some suggestions to improve this skill are:

1/ Make heavy attacks generate 2 stacks similar to relentless focus, and give it a 2 second delay so players can time it with other offensive skills for a better burst combo. The damage can stay the same, but please make the daggers hit at the same time after a set delay.

2/ Increase the damage of the daggers so it's actually worth slotting in PvP. You can take away the 8% light attack damage or even the 8% max stam, just make the active feel like it's something an enemy should fear. Whenever I fight a stamblade I have to actively dodge the relentless focus proc or otherwise I'm taking 10k+ crit. Make bound armament pose a real threat like that.

3/ Instead of having 4 daggers, make the active summon 1 single large sword. The biggest problem with having 4 daggers is that you need all 4 of them to crit in order to deal maximum damage, but we all know it's a rare occurrence to have all 4 crits.


Platform:
PC NA

Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • Kittytravel
    Kittytravel
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    StaticWave wrote: »
    Bound armaments:
    Cast Time: Instant
    Target: Self
    Range: Maximum range: 28 meters
    Cost: 2295 Stamina

    Arm yourself with the power of Oblivion for 40 seconds, causing your Light and Heavy Attacks to summon a Bound weapon for 10 seconds, up to 4 times. You can reactivate the ability for half cost to arm the weapons, causing them to strike your target for 381 Physical Damage every 0.3 seconds. While slotted, your Maximum Stamina is increased by 8% and Light Attack damage is increased by 10%.

    Right off the bat we see that it's a near identical version of relentless focus, but less potent.

    Relentless Focus
    Cast Time: Instant
    Target: Self
    Cost: 2295 Stamina

    Skill description
    Focus your senses for 1 minute, reducing your damage taken by 2% with every Light or Heavy Attack, up to 5 times. While active, hitting an enemy with 5 Light or Heavy Attacks converts this ability into Assassin's Scourge, allowing you to fire a spectral arrow for half cost that deals 1695 Disease Damage, and heals for 33% of the damage dealt if you are within 7 meters of the enemy.

    I mean yeah if you wanna ignore the 8% max stamina granting you more damage on all stamina based abilities and the free 10% light attack damage then sure it's a "less potent near identical version of merciless resolve".

    (If you do the base damage math BA gives you 381 x 4 = 1524 for the four autos and MR gives you 1695 for 5 Autos which is 381 per auto. BA isn't a identical version of RF; it's literally just a better RF.)
  • Alienoutlaw
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    bound Bound armaments has a 100% up time and can be fired off at will the tooltip reflects that. i see no reason to change it
  • madeeh91rwb17_ESO
    madeeh91rwb17_ESO
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    The uniqueness of StamSorc is that it gives its opponents free Major Expedition, if the opponent has Elude slotted. :s
  • madeeh91rwb17_ESO
    madeeh91rwb17_ESO
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    bound Bound armaments has a 100% up time and can be fired off at will the tooltip reflects that. i see no reason to change it

    How often have you PvPed?
    Or have used that skill against a player who isn't a scrub?
  • Heimpai
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    How often have you PvPed?
    Or have used that skill against a player who isn't a scrub?

    You can always run a NB since RF is so much better
  • Elwendryll
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    I'm a stamsorc main.

    I could get behind the idea of 2 stacks per heavy, because it doesn't really change anything. Otherwise your propositions don't make sense to me.

    Your comparison with Relentless focus is flawed. It's the same damage/LA but you can't waste a charge by using the skill too early. Sure it's less burst, but you can use it more often, and it still deals more than a spammable.

    Removing the light attack damage and the max stam? Are you sure you're actually a stamsorc main? I've been playing stamsorc for almost 5 years now and I feel like you're working against us right now.

    You're complaining that the skill has 4 separate hits with 4 separate crits, and you say it's an issue, but really, it smooths the damage, because while you can just totally negate a RF/snipe by rolling, at least with BA you can still land part of the damage.

    You can argue it's easier to dodge, because you can react after the start of the cast, and I agree with that, but the skill is different. And 4 hits = 3 extra proc chances for whatever effect.

    Same with crit. With RF it's all or nothing. You can build up 5 charges and then fire it to not crit and essentially waste your opportunity. With BA and its 4 hits, your crit hits occurrences will be closer to your crit chances, if it makes sense to you. Not having any crit out of 4 daggers is less likely to happen.

    BA gives a false impression of not dealing much damage because it doesn't update at once on the health bar, but really, it does hit hard. If you don't like it and prefer RF, go play NB. But I can tell you I have a former main NB friend who is still salty about this change because BA is way more convenient to use than RF, and it's a better version of it.
    Edited by Elwendryll on February 12, 2020 8:20AM
    PC - EU - France - AD
    Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
    Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
    Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.

    All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH
  • Alienoutlaw
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    How often have you PvPed?
    Or have used that skill against a player who isn't a scrub?

    me? whats PvP?
  • Kombinator
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    This MMO is not PVP focused so anything related to PVP is irrevelant. Just go PVE.
  • StaticWave
    StaticWave
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    Relentless Focus
    Cast Time: Instant
    Target: Self
    Cost: 2295 Stamina

    Skill description
    Focus your senses for 1 minute, reducing your damage taken by 2% with every Light or Heavy Attack, up to 5 times. While active, hitting an enemy with 5 Light or Heavy Attacks converts this ability into Assassin's Scourge, allowing you to fire a spectral arrow for half cost that deals 1695 Disease Damage, and heals for 33% of the damage dealt if you are within 7 meters of the enemy.

    I mean yeah if you wanna ignore the 8% max stamina granting you more damage on all stamina based abilities and the free 10% light attack damage then sure it's a "less potent near identical version of merciless resolve".

    (If you do the base damage math BA gives you 381 x 4 = 1524 for the four autos and MR gives you 1695 for 5 Autos which is 381 per auto. BA isn't a identical version of RF; it's literally just a better RF.)

    My tooltip for bound armaments is 5.1k per dagger with the 8% max stam factored in. It deals ~1.8k crit against an armored player. I’ve been hit for 10k+ relentless focus. I mean you can do the math all you want but relentless focus does more damage, that’s fact.
    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • StaticWave
    StaticWave
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    Elwendryll wrote: »
    I'm a stamsorc main.

    I could get behind the idea of 2 stacks per heavy, because it doesn't really change anything. Otherwise your propositions don't make sense to me.

    Your comparison with Relentless focus is flawed. It's the same damage/LA but you can't waste a charge by using the skill too early. Sure it's less burst, but you can use it more often, and it still deals more than a spammable.

    Removing the light attack damage and the max stam? Are you sure you're actually a stamsorc main? I've been playing stamsorc for almost 5 years now and I feel like you're working against us right now.

    You're complaining that the skill has 4 separate hits with 4 separate crits, and you say it's an issue, but really, it smooths the damage, because while you can just totally negate a RF/snipe by rolling, at least with BA you can still land part of the damage.

    You can argue it's easier to dodge, because you can react after the start of the cast, and I agree with that, but the skill is different. And 4 hits = 3 extra proc chances for whatever effect.

    Same with crit. With RF it's all or nothing. You can build up 5 charges and then fire it to not crit and essentially waste your opportunity. With BA and its 4 hits, your crit hits occurrences will be closer to your crit chances, if it makes sense to you. Not having any crit out of 4 daggers is less likely to happen.

    BA gives a false impression of not dealing much damage because it doesn't update at once on the health bar, but really, it does hit hard. If you don't like it and prefer RF, go play NB. But I can tell you I have a former main NB friend who is still salty about this change because BA is way more convenient to use than RF, and it's a better version of it.

    You can absolutely use relentless focus early. Most people already anticipate the burst combo with relentless so they always roll to avoid it. Holding on to it is a disadvantage.

    Yes I am a stamsorc main, quite well known on PC NA to be specific, but it’s not part of the issue here. I’m saying I would gladly trade the 8% max stam and light attack for a better active, because every good stamsorc I’ve spoken to, thinks the active part is very lackluster especially in openworld.

    It’s an issue because you can’t get the most damage out of it. It’s not hard to dodge bound armaments either. People just don’t see the incentive to dodge it when they can heal through it.

    And I play both NB and stamsorc. I can tell you relentless focus is stronger if you use it outside of the normal heavily anticipated burst combo.
    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • Speed_Kills
    Speed_Kills
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    I gave BA a good try for the first month after the update to the skill. In 1v1s it can have some use sometimes, but open world there are just better things to slot. The passives are good, but still don’t offer enough to make it worth slotting in most cases. As a Dps skill, it is decent but is limited by the stacks. In most cases, it’s just as good if not better to just cast your spammable instead of BA. As a burst skill, it is lackluster as @StaticWave stated.
    Some say speed kills, I hope to be proof of that.

    Main- Speed Kills Nord Stamina Sorcerer
    +11 alts (every class, mag+stam)
  • Kittytravel
    Kittytravel
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    StaticWave wrote: »
    My tooltip for bound armaments is 5.1k per dagger with the 8% max stam factored in. It deals ~1.8k crit against an armored player. I’ve been hit for 10k+ relentless focus. I mean you can do the math all you want but relentless focus does more damage, that’s fact.

    Relentless Focus Damage = 0.192114 Stamina + 2.01639 WD - 1.27997 (Stamina, R2 = 1, ratio = 10.50)
    Bound Armaments Damage = 0.0431116 Stamina + 0.4531 WD + 0.156675 (Stamina, R2 = 0.999998, ratio = 10.51)

    You can see the ratio for BA WD scaling VS pure stam is very slightly higher than RF. But that's likely calculated in the fact that BA also is handing you 8% max stamina. Math doesn't lie; BA is better based on the math they use to calculate the damage. RF only appears to do more damage because it's in a single burst and gains from NB Hemorrhage for extra crit damage.

    As far as the two abilities go in side by side comparison; BA is unarguably superior to RF due to it's side bonuses. The actives calculate very close to each other in damage scaling. You want to claim "that's fact" then how about presenting some numbers to back up your "facts". Go make a NB and StamSorc then get their stats exactly the same then parse the damages while accounting for all the passives.

    But here just on paper let me compare two of my toons.
    Spoiler
    cmQbho9.png
    mG2vV1S.png

    You'll notice despite my NBs raw WD being significantly higher the Sorcs stam is much higher due to his having BA. If you check the math on just those two SS you'll find my RF deals 14383/5 = 2876 per light attack, a mere two points higher than my sorcs BA. No food buffs were on either on them as you can see from their HP values (my NB isn't pure stam because otherwise everything WB level murders him due to all the nerfs they have undergone recently).
  • StaticWave
    StaticWave
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    Relentless Focus Damage = 0.192114 Stamina + 2.01639 WD - 1.27997 (Stamina, R2 = 1, ratio = 10.50)
    Bound Armaments Damage = 0.0431116 Stamina + 0.4531 WD + 0.156675 (Stamina, R2 = 0.999998, ratio = 10.51)

    You can see the ratio for BA WD scaling VS pure stam is very slightly higher than RF. But that's likely calculated in the fact that BA also is handing you 8% max stamina. Math doesn't lie; BA is better based on the math they use to calculate the damage. RF only appears to do more damage because it's in a single burst and gains from NB Hemorrhage for extra crit damage.

    As far as the two abilities go in side by side comparison; BA is unarguably superior to RF due to it's side bonuses. The actives calculate very close to each other in damage scaling. You want to claim "that's fact" then how about presenting some numbers to back up your "facts". Go make a NB and StamSorc then get their stats exactly the same then parse the damages while accounting for all the passives.

    But here just on paper let me compare two of my toons.
    Spoiler
    cmQbho9.png
    mG2vV1S.png

    You'll notice despite my NBs raw WD being significantly higher the Sorcs stam is much higher due to his having BA. If you check the math on just those two SS you'll find my RF deals 14383/5 = 2876 per light attack, a mere two points higher than my sorcs BA. No food buffs were on either on them as you can see from their HP values (my NB isn't pure stam because otherwise everything WB level murders him due to all the nerfs they have undergone recently).

    RF doesn't just appear to do more damage, it actually does more damage. The biggest flaw in your argument is thinking that RF's total damage is somehow divided equally? It's a single projectile, so the whole "RF deals 14383/5 = 2876 per light attack" thing is irrelevant. We're looking at the total damage you can gain with both skill at full stacks, and clearly RF is superior by a mile. Even if I use your argument, then BA would need to have 5 stacks in order to do more damage than RF, but it only has 4 stacks, so unless ZOS adds an extra stack, your entire argument is again irrelevant. Furthermore, this is a PvP post, where burst damage > parse damage. But here are my stats on both classes with an actual working full damage build, and identical mundus/food/CP/Major + Minor buffs, as well as the tooltip for each skill.

    Stamsorc:
    Spoiler
    LdNgPii.png
    Spoiler
    xXkSuP5.png

    Stamblade:
    Spoiler
    ysCvGXw.png
    Spoiler
    xbtFK6C.png

    My stamsorc has 2k more max stam and 48 more weapon damage than my stamblade because of the 8% max stam and 2% weapon damage passives, but literally just look at the tooltip value for each skill:

    BA total damage = 5186 * 4 = 20744
    RF total damage = 25649

    Total damage is where it matters, not how much damage each skill can do per second, unless you want to literally spam BA every time it gains a stack? What about holding on to the proc to find the right moment for the burst in PvP? There is no practical scenario in PvP where BA > RF, it's a fact and it takes game play to understand. This is why I'm saying you need to also look at how the skill actually function, not just based off of pure math. BA is just a rip off version of RF, and literally every stamsorc main whom were initially excited for the change to this skill, told me after wards that they don't even bother slotting it.
    Edited by StaticWave on February 12, 2020 8:41PM
    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • Dark_Lord_Kuro
    Dark_Lord_Kuro
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    One does give passive buff to light attack and all your others skill and the other dont so its pretty normal one hit for less than the other

    And no do not remove the passive buff for pvp as it would nerf pve yet again
  • ZOS_Volpe
    ZOS_Volpe
    admin
    Greetings all,

    We have recently removed some rude commentary. We would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

    Thank you for your understanding
    Edited by ZOS_Volpe on February 12, 2020 9:51PM
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  • Kittytravel
    Kittytravel
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    StaticWave wrote: »
    BA total damage = 5186 * 4 = 20744
    RF total damage = 25649

    Total damage is where it matters, not how much damage each skill can do per second, unless you want to literally spam BA every time it gains a stack? What about holding on to the proc to find the right moment for the burst in PvP? There is no practical scenario in PvP where BA > RF, it's a fact and it takes game play to understand. This is why I'm saying you need to also look at how the skill actually function, not just based off of pure math. BA is just a rip off version of RF, and literally every stamsorc main whom were initially excited for the change to this skill, told me after wards that they don't even bother slotting it.

    You're literally ignoring the fact that BA takes 1 less LA to stack than RF and that makes up the difference.

    The reason I'm dividing RF's damage into 5 is because it takes 5 LA to proc it's condition; it takes four to setup BA. You divide both into their LA requirements to see how much damage each one is doing to make up for it's LA requirement to figure out if it's useful. This seems pretty basic to me as it's how anyone would figure out if either of these abilities are worth their salt. If you add one more stack of BA to your calculation is exceeds RF; so the less damage part you are complaining about is because it takes one less light attack before using it.

    It won't get buffed because it's fair in it's current state and if it does get buffed RF will get buffed alongside it. If your argument is that the animation is too telegraphed and clunky then you have one; but on the basis that it's "damage is lower" you have none. Half the skills in the game have clunky telegraphed animations. And you continue to ignore that BA despite having "Lower burst potential" than RF also adds it's 8% max stam bonus damage to every single other ability you use.

    So sure, if you want BA to gain 5 stacks for 5 daggers and lose it's other bonuses and we get RF to 4 stacks for less damage and we get the 8% max stam and LA bonus then yes I'll take that trade and have a good day. :)
  • StaticWave
    StaticWave
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    You're literally ignoring the fact that BA takes 1 less LA to stack than RF and that makes up the difference.

    The reason I'm dividing RF's damage into 5 is because it takes 5 LA to proc it's condition; it takes four to setup BA. You divide both into their LA requirements to see how much damage each one is doing to make up for it's LA requirement to figure out if it's useful. This seems pretty basic to me as it's how anyone would figure out if either of these abilities are worth their salt.

    To which I do not disagree with. If you think of it that way then yes, BA does more DPS if you cast it instantly after gaining 4 stacks. But the title of this thread is "Please improve bound armaments for PvP ". You can't just assume that you will be able to cast BA back to back like you're DPSing a dummy. You can't just assume that you won't need to hold on to the skill and use it at the right moment, or incorporate it into your burst rotation to deal the most amount of damage in the shortest window possible. Have you not taken into account that BA stacks also disappear after 10 seconds if you don't light attack your targets, whereas RF stacks stay up for the whole duration of the skill? What if I'm trying to LoS against a group of ranged players whom I do not want to be close to? Are you gonna tell me to run back and light attack them to keep my stacks up? That alone is a disadvantage.
    "if you add one more stack of BA to your calculation is exceeds RF; so the less damage part you are complaining about is because it takes one less light attack before using it."

    But you can't add one more stack of BA, so why are you even bringing this up as if it's a valid point? Total damage of BA < total damage of RF, it's that simple. The only way for me to do more damage than RF is if I use BA as if I'm DPSing a dummy, but I can't do that in an actual PvP scenario...

    It won't get buffed because it's fair in it's current state and if it does get buffed RF will get buffed alongside it. If your argument is that the animation is too telegraphed and clunky then you have one; but on the basis that it's "damage is lower" you have none. Half the skills in the game have clunky telegraphed animations. And you continue to ignore that BA despite having "Lower burst potential" than RF also adds it's 8% max stam bonus damage to every single other ability you use.

    It's fair in PvE, but not good enough for PvP, how can you not grasp that? Do I need to bring every single stamsorc main PvPer on here to prove you otherwise? I've religiously used Bound Armaments for a month in PvP in every scenario, from dueling to 1vXing to small scaling to zerg surfing. It simply does not perform better than relentless focus, period.

    As for the damage being lower, yes it is if you look at it from a PvP perspective. I don't care if it needs less stacks. The total damage is still 5k less, and when you're trying to use it in your burst combo you will notice how bad it is compared to RF. Please don't use that "it does more damage over 5 stacks" argument when we're talking about PvP. And yes, I'm ignoring the 8% max stam because it's literally inferior to camo hunter or ransack, which give minor berserk and major fracture, both of which are superior damage amplifying sources.

    I'm starting to feel like your entire argument is looking at this skill from a PvE perspective.

    Platform:
    PC NA

    Main:
    Static Wave - AD stamsorc

  • hakan
    hakan
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    you forgot to add your light attack damage bonus to that.
  • Mr_Walker
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    Just streak and stun ad infinitum, and you don't need offense, because I'll die of irritation.
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