Stamsorc's issue in PvP

StaticWave

I'm a 3 year stamsorc main with a good amount of experience in dueling, 1vXing, smallscaling, and BGs. I've experienced the ups and downs of this class over those years, and I think stamsorc is currently in a very good spot in terms of damage. The rework to Bound Armaments, the Crystal Weapon change, etc. helped stamsorc become a lethal threat in the hands of a good player. However, I think stamsorc's biggest weakness right now is its healing.

With the changes to CP and added base stats, damage has been higher than anything we've experienced before. 1 shot builds are very common nowadays, and DoT builds can eat through anything. Stamsorc, while very good at abusing its mobility and speed, isn't very good at healing. This is due to several reasons:

1) Reduced crit chance, making Crit Surge less efficient to slot on your bar.
2) HP recovery nerf, which was a major component of stamsorc's healing potential as they have passives that buff it.
3) Dark Deal being a channel ability, making it inefficient as a burst heal.
4) HP scaling burst heal such as clanfear requires double barring, very inefficient.

These factors combined, force the class into the 1-shot speedy playstyle to mitigate damage. Even then, you still cannot mitigate things like DoTs, which require exceptional healing power or a purge, both of which stamsorc currently does not have. With that said, I'd like ZOS to consider several changes to help stamsorc's survivability in PvP without relying on mobility and speed, so that other build paths can work:

1) Make Crit Surge heal off any damage type, but for a lesser amount - Stamsorc already struggles with building crit chance, so making an essential heal requiring crit damage limits healing potential.
2) Make Dark Deal instant cast, but returns less resources - This instantly solves the burst heal problem for stamsorc and allows them to rely less on their mobility.
3) Make Clan Fear untargettable, deal less damage, lasts for a specific duration, but is one bar-able and gives a burst heal upon recasting

There are other suggestions too to solve the issue of healing for stamsorc, so I would love to hear other opinions.

Biro123

Haha - sorry, not laughing at you - just how some things never change.

Recently came back to the game after around 3? years - used to be both a stamsorc and then magsorc main..

Sorcs have been asking for pets to be single-slottable for-ever. I can't see it ever happening. Zos went down the route of buffing them instead some time back.
Dark Deal used to be instant-cast - but people complained (boy, did they complain about it) so it was nerfed. I'm not sure I've ever seen Zos directly undo a nerf before. (for me that made stamsorc lose its fun - seemed to spend way too much time re-casting buffs/dark-dealing on the class rather than just fighting - I've always thought hurricane needs a longer duration)

I don't really understand yet what's changed with crit-chance and impen.. I've just picked up that 'something' has.. but I never really saw crit-surge as a really useful heal in the burst-game that is cyro.

StaticWave

Biro123 wrote: »

Haha - sorry, not laughing at you - just how some things never change.

Recently came back to the game after around 3? years - used to be both a stamsorc and then magsorc main..

Sorcs have been asking for pets to be single-slottable for-ever. I can't see it ever happening. Zos went down the route of buffing them instead some time back.
Dark Deal used to be instant-cast - but people complained (boy, did they complain about it) so it was nerfed. I'm not sure I've ever seen Zos directly undo a nerf before. (for me that made stamsorc lose its fun - seemed to spend way too much time re-casting buffs/dark-dealing on the class rather than just fighting - I've always thought hurricane needs a longer duration)

I don't really understand yet what's changed with crit-chance and impen.. I've just picked up that 'something' has.. but I never really saw crit-surge as a really useful heal in the burst-game that is cyro.

Shame I never got to play stamsorc when dark deal was instant cast . It would solve so many issues in the current meta. Crit surge is unchanged but ZOS nerfed crit chance by a ton so crit surge indirectly got nerfed. In 5 medium with savagery I only have 28% crit chance... It's just not worth it speccing for crit chance because you lose out on other stats, especially in PvP where people stack a lot of armor.

Fawn4287

I suppose the weaker healing sorc offers is the trade off for its insane mobility and high damage but the problem is how painful the other heals on the class are, even if the pets didn’t need to be double barred to use they play almost the opposite way of the class’ strong points, what good is a pet that runs off and dies when you are streaking away and sprinting with both expedition buffs?

ResidentContrarian

Really?

When stam sorc can gank better than NBs right now, you are saying they need more healing?

Also, surge should never heal off of any damage - you want that get blood fountain.

Hard disagree that surge should be changed.

xylena_lazarow

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

When stam sorc can gank better than NBs right now, you are saying they need more healing?

I'd gladly trade the burst potential for HP regen back, being pigeonholed into ganker is not my style. The blue purge CP is not enough to deal with having DoTs stacked on you. So many problems in this PvP could be solved if Efficient Purge was made much cheaper but self target only.

ResidentContrarian

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

When stam sorc can gank better than NBs right now, you are saying they need more healing?

I'd gladly trade the burst potential for HP regen back, being pigeonholed into ganker is not my style. The blue purge CP is not enough to deal with having DoTs stacked on you. So many problems in this PvP could be solved if Efficient Purge was made much cheaper but self target only.

Of course you would, because before the nerf stam sorc was easy-godmode and now it's been knocked down a few pegs. His suggestions are bad for other reasons, but I don't feel like writing a block of text explaining why.

If anyone is really a "pro" stam sorc they should know exactly what will result from those changes (overbuffing the spec) and that the spec will get slammed down 2x as hard as its buffs in a subsequent patch.

That's a lot of trouble just because someone doesn't want to either lose some damage or learn how to roll and block better.

At least, that's my opinion on the matter. But my opinion isn't only an opinion, it's backed by from a review of the game systemically - something that all players should do before making buff or nerf requests, or maybe they have but pretend these are "small" or "simple" changes when they are actually huge buffs.

L_Nici

Thats basically the same issues Stamsorc always had. But honestly I have no trouble reaching good Critrates. I currently run 52% Critchance without sacrificing much for it. Of course you can't build on those boring damage procs if you want that, but Stamsorc can manage to deal enough damage without them. My Critical Surge works beautifully, the only big issue I have is that the PvP is desynched again since Procs returned and I don't exactly have a healthpool that allows me to survive sudden Damage Spikes that should have hit over multiple seconds instead of instantly even if you are long gone already.
About Dark Deal, yes its insanely annoying that its a channel and the healing itself is way to weak for an entire second lost, it also gets interrupted by basically everything banning you on Global Cooldown completely defenseless.
If you want small heals on attacking enemies, you could also run the CP for it, personally I don't do that though, Surge alone is good enough at that Critrate, especially since the Heal of Surge can also crit.

katorga

Caveat, this is just Cyrodiil.

Sorc is the class best suited to leverage the poor server performance, positional desyncs to its advantage.

The negative is that being a single target burst class, you are forced into a kitey playstyle.

MurderMostFoul

Streak to cover, vigor, dark deal. Works for me.

xylena_lazarow

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

stam sorc was easy-godmode... If anyone is really a "pro" stam sorc

You sound like you have a personal grudge. What PvP do you mostly play? I don't recall stamsorc ever having a huge presence in cp cyro. Good class, but not quite on the level of warden in previous cp cyro metas. So far in the new meta I feel like I'm playing an off-brand stamblade. As someone said in another thread, this meta is shaping up to be one shot stam builds, unkillable heal tanks, and nothing in between. I don't want to have to give up on making a balanced build work.

gariondavey

Can't speak to cp cyro but no cp cyro and bgs have absolutely insane stamsorcs in high mmr. They are so so so so strong.

StaticWave

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Really?

When stam sorc can gank better than NBs right now, you are saying they need more healing?

Also, surge should never heal off of any damage - you want that get blood fountain.

Hard disagree that surge should be changed.

A gank build isn’t a good measurement of a class’s strength and weaknesses in PvP, btw. That’s like saying NB can gank the best hence it doesn’t need adjustments, when it really does.

StaticWave

gariondavey wrote: »

Can't speak to cp cyro but no cp cyro and bgs have absolutely insane stamsorcs in high mmr. They are so so so so strong.

BG stamsorcs use 3 free damage procs. I wouldn’t use a proc build as measurement standard for a class’s strength and weaknesses.

StaticWave

L_Nici wrote: »

Thats basically the same issues Stamsorc always had. But honestly I have no trouble reaching good Critrates. I currently run 52% Critchance without sacrificing much for it. Of course you can't build on those boring damage procs if you want that, but Stamsorc can manage to deal enough damage without them. My Critical Surge works beautifully, the only big issue I have is that the PvP is desynched again since Procs returned and I don't exactly have a healthpool that allows me to survive sudden Damage Spikes that should have hit over multiple seconds instead of instantly even if you are long gone already.
About Dark Deal, yes its insanely annoying that its a channel and the healing itself is way to weak for an entire second lost, it also gets interrupted by basically everything banning you on Global Cooldown completely defenseless.
If you want small heals on attacking enemies, you could also run the CP for it, personally I don't do that though, Surge alone is good enough at that Critrate, especially since the Heal of Surge can also crit.

That’s what I find problematic about crit surge in the current game - You sacrifice defense and penetration to gain crit chance. I assume you’re using leviathan and another set with crit lines? Giving up a lot of defense during this patch is a death sentence as damage is so high right now. I think crit surge healing for less but more consistent is much better than healing for more but not as consistent.

gariondavey

They have the best mobility and sustain and some of the best delayed burst.

StaticWave

gariondavey wrote: »

They have the best mobility and sustain and some of the best delayed burst.

Correct, but the reason those stamsorcs do as well as they are right now is because they have 3 procs. Front-loading all their damage into that 1s offensive window, and running away when it fails to kill is what that playstyle is about. I know because I played it. What about other playstyles? There is simply not enough healing or tankiness for them to work. That’s basically saying I’m forced to play a kite build or I won’t be able to do as well. That isn’t what this thread is about.

gariondavey

Not all classes can play all playstyles. I main stamplar. My stamplar currently has over 30k health and uses a few percent hp heals as well as 6k weapon damage and 2 procs. I have to rely on speed and los. Damage is so high that anyone not playing an extremely tanky heavy armor snb setup will die out in the open in a couple seconds. Stamdk or stamden or stamcro are more capable of playing a non kite playstyle than stamsorc, stamplar or stamblade.

ResidentContrarian

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

stam sorc was easy-godmode... If anyone is really a "pro" stam sorc

You sound like you have a personal grudge. What PvP do you mostly play? I don't recall stamsorc ever having a huge presence in cp cyro. Good class, but not quite on the level of warden in previous cp cyro metas. So far in the new meta I feel like I'm playing an off-brand stamblade. As someone said in another thread, this meta is shaping up to be one shot stam builds, unkillable heal tanks, and nothing in between. I don't want to have to give up on making a balanced build work.

Not really, I just happen to have 3 and know what's coming better than anyone else. I have zero vested interest and will prove what I mean if anyone wants a block of text to show how misguided those changes would be. I am ready to back up any opinion I have any time.

ResidentContrarian

StaticWave wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Really?

When stam sorc can gank better than NBs right now, you are saying they need more healing?

Also, surge should never heal off of any damage - you want that get blood fountain.

Hard disagree that surge should be changed.

A gank build isn’t a good measurement of a class’s strength and weaknesses in PvP, btw. That’s like saying NB can gank the best hence it doesn’t need adjustments, when it really does.

And yet your build must be tantamount to that or a defensive one or you'd have more crit.

xylena_lazarow

gariondavey wrote: »

Not all classes can play all playstyles.

You previously had a lot more options for stamsorc, now it seems more strictly pigeonholed into hit-n-run ganker. Some are fine with this, but it sucks the fun out of it for me. I can keep trying things but realize I may have to switch class to get a more balanced playstyle, maybe to stamplar like you.

Raeyleigh

It's the large health recovery nerf that hits stamsorcs defense insanely hard.

Stamsorcs main weakness is that it has nothing in the way of damage mitigation, even less than nightblade. Except for the very specialized option in ball of lightning, which comes at the opportunity cost of not using streak.
You can somewhat prevent getting bursted by building enough hp and resistances, activly using block, dodge and streak, but what about dots? High pressure in general?
You cant amp up your healing a lot since critsurge and darkdeal dont scale at all, and when you start running the clannfear with snb you will soon ask yourself why you are not playing a stamden instead of this budged version in the first place.

Until now the age old solution was to build some hp reg, but that stat is too weak and borderline useless since this patch.

Stamsorc doesnt need everything, but its healing in blackwood is too low for anything but a pseudo gank playstyle.

StaticWave

gariondavey wrote: »

Not all classes can play all playstyles. I main stamplar. My stamplar currently has over 30k health and uses a few percent hp heals as well as 6k weapon damage and 2 procs. I have to rely on speed and los. Damage is so high that anyone not playing an extremely tanky heavy armor snb setup will die out in the open in a couple seconds. Stamdk or stamden or stamcro are more capable of playing a non kite playstyle than stamsorc, stamplar or stamblade.

Spin2win was much more lethal, and SnB front bar was very viable. Damage was a lot lower, so you could survive even without needing rally. Now? 1 shot builds are everywhere, and damage is just so high that if you don't actively block incoming damage, or if you randomly get hit by a 10-15k burst, you have zero chance of recovering without rally. Rally is basically 100% needed on any build, so you can't even use Dw/SnB, or Dw/Bow as effectively anymore. That's why I asked for Dark Deal/Clan Fear rework, because you get options to try other build paths.

Saying not all classes can play all playstyles is disregarding the thread's objective. I'm sure you would love it for stamplar to be able to have a built in Major Brutality so you don't have to be forced into using Rally all the time.

xylena_lazarow

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not really, I just happen to have 3 and know what's coming better than anyone else.

You have 3 stamsorcs? What PvP do you play them in?

gariondavey

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Not all classes can play all playstyles.

You previously had a lot more options for stamsorc, now it seems more strictly pigeonholed into hit-n-run ganker. Some are fine with this, but it sucks the fun out of it for me. I can keep trying things but realize I may have to switch class to get a more balanced playstyle, maybe to stamplar like you.

You will be way less strong on stamplar. Just a heads up.

gariondavey

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Not all classes can play all playstyles. I main stamplar. My stamplar currently has over 30k health and uses a few percent hp heals as well as 6k weapon damage and 2 procs. I have to rely on speed and los. Damage is so high that anyone not playing an extremely tanky heavy armor snb setup will die out in the open in a couple seconds. Stamdk or stamden or stamcro are more capable of playing a non kite playstyle than stamsorc, stamplar or stamblade.

Spin2win was much more lethal, and SnB front bar was very viable. Damage was a lot lower, so you could survive even without needing rally. Now? 1 shot builds are everywhere, and damage is just so high that if you don't actively block incoming damage, or if you randomly get hit by a 10-15k burst, you have zero chance of recovering without rally. Rally is basically 100% needed on any build, so you can't even use Dw/SnB, or Dw/Bow as effectively anymore. That's why I asked for Dark Deal/Clan Fear rework, because you get options to try other build paths.

Saying not all classes can play all playstyles is disregarding the thread's objective. I'm sure you would love it for stamplar to be able to have a built in Major Brutality so you don't have to be forced into using Rally all the time.

Yes I understand these points and I do agree to an extent. But class identity also exists. Difficult situation.

StaticWave

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Really?

When stam sorc can gank better than NBs right now, you are saying they need more healing?

Also, surge should never heal off of any damage - you want that get blood fountain.

Hard disagree that surge should be changed.

A gank build isn’t a good measurement of a class’s strength and weaknesses in PvP, btw. That’s like saying NB can gank the best hence it doesn’t need adjustments, when it really does.

And yet your build must be tantamount to that or a defensive one or you'd have more crit.

A crit build sounds good on paper but doesn't work in practice. Compared to a stamblade who easily gets crit chance, crit damage, and penetration passives, stamsorc feels lack luster. When you build for crit chance on stamsorc, you're sacrificing penetration, weapon damage, max health, armor, mundus and trait options, etc. Not to mention you need to stack into critical damage as well to make the build worthwhile after sacrificing other offensive stats. That means losing bar space. All of that is too much to give up to make a build work. Yet for some reason, stamblade's active healing only requires light/heavy attacking, while stamsorc's active healing requires dealing crit damage, despite all of its struggles? That doesn't make sense at all.

Waffennacht

I would love sorc to have what you listed.
That would put its kit right there with necro and warden
And then lets buff DK templar and NB

Then id be happy. Every class comparable to necro and warden

gariondavey

Waffennacht wrote: »

I would love sorc to have what you listed.
That would put its kit right there with necro and warden
And then lets buff DK templar and NB

Then id be happy. Every class comparable to necro and warden

I will never play necro or warden. It is not right to have 2 classes better than the others. I will not add to the mess!

L_Nici

@StaticWave yes I do use Leviathan but my second set isn't with Critlines. I reach 7.2k Weapon Power, 23k Pen, 52% Critrate, 86% Critdamage, at 32k Stamina in running combat. I really have no issues of loosing anything, except my Health and resistences. The trick there is to not get hit, which proves a little difficult since the procs returned Cyros performance is totally screwed, way worse than before, no idea how they didn't see an increase in performance without procs...

gariondavey

L_Nici wrote: »

@StaticWave yes I do use Leviathan but my second set isn't with Critlines. I reach 7.2k Weapon Power, 23k Pen, 52% Critrate, 86% Critdamage, at 32k Stamina in running combat. I really have no issues of loosing anything, except my Health and resistences. The trick there is to not get hit, which proves a little difficult since the procs returned Cyros performance is totally screwed, way worse than before, no idea how they didn't see an increase in performance without procs...

What's the build?