Stamsorc's issue in PvP

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

I know that sounds boring but you can’t brawl against other classes for long.

That was the whole point of this thread, being pigeonholed into a narrow playstyle, even if they're good at it.

Pretty much. I've played 1 shot builds for several months before they even became meta for the class. It's definitely strong, but only against players with less experience than you. That entire build has zero pressure outside of the 1 shot burst because you just simple don't have the survivability to stay in a prolonged fight. That makes stamsorc also very weak in group play as the moment you streak away you leave your teammate to die. All I'm asking for is more survivability so you don't have to be pidgeonholed into playing the hit and run playstyle.

Vizirith

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

I know that sounds boring but you can’t brawl against other classes for long.

That was the whole point of this thread, being pigeonholed into a narrow playstyle, even if they're good at it.

Pretty much. I've played 1 shot builds for several months before they even became meta for the class. It's definitely strong, but only against players with less experience than you. That entire build has zero pressure outside of the 1 shot burst because you just simple don't have the survivability to stay in a prolonged fight. That makes stamsorc also very weak in group play as the moment you streak away you leave your teammate to die. All I'm asking for is more survivability so you don't have to be pidgeonholed into playing the hit and run playstyle.

Well you can go more defensive sets, like armor master BB with shuffle/elude. Pariah is always pretty good for tankiness. Heck the other guy that just posted his stamsorc builds uses daedric trickery where 3/5 buffs are purely defensive.

You are basically a stamblade without cloak, if you go glass cannon that's how you have to play.

StaticWave

Vizirith wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

I know that sounds boring but you can’t brawl against other classes for long.

That was the whole point of this thread, being pigeonholed into a narrow playstyle, even if they're good at it.

Pretty much. I've played 1 shot builds for several months before they even became meta for the class. It's definitely strong, but only against players with less experience than you. That entire build has zero pressure outside of the 1 shot burst because you just simple don't have the survivability to stay in a prolonged fight. That makes stamsorc also very weak in group play as the moment you streak away you leave your teammate to die. All I'm asking for is more survivability so you don't have to be pidgeonholed into playing the hit and run playstyle.

Well you can go more defensive sets, like armor master BB with shuffle/elude. Pariah is always pretty good for tankiness. Heck the other guy that just posted his stamsorc builds uses daedric trickery where 3/5 buffs are purely defensive.

You are basically a stamblade without cloak, if you go glass cannon that's how you have to play.

I'm already in tank sets lol. Like I said, I'm already using meta things before they became meta. I bought a full set of pariah 1 month before Blackwood went live because I tested on PTS. I also crafted trickery and used it in preparation for Blackwood. But that isn't the point. The point is stamblades can run full dmg and still survive because of cloak + shade. Stamcro is so tanky you can just chill in 2 dmg sets. Stamden is slightly weaker now but you can still be tankier than a stamsorc. All these classes are much better at surviving in less tanky sets, and when they actually do put on tank sets, they do it better than sorc. Sorc is only good at running away and isn't good at staying in a brawler fight. I'm asking for changes to expand the build paths and playstyle, so people don't have to be stuck with a hit and run stamsorc.

fred4

katorga wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I am not using Rally. Sooo again wrong I guess. You are just to stuck in your specific way, which maybe isn't the right one for a Stamsorc that has everything you want to have.

You can't deny that stamsorc lost a ton of versatility this patch.

Did it ever have versatility?

There were some interesting proc builds, but mostly its been a 2H/Bow hit and run class for years.

Perhaps, but since you asked "did it ever", yes it did. I saw a stamsorc tank 5 players using 1H+S / resto years ago, when 1H+S was still viable as an offensive weapon. The guy used resto heavies to restore magicka for Dark Deal. I'm guessing he probably had bigger stat pools than used today, as he would need them inbetween 1H+S ult windows while 1vXing.

High stam builds are out, Vateshran 2H is in. CP used to give us +20% stats, competing with +20% from Major Brutality / Sorcery in CP. While stam always (as long as I've been around) had a bias for weapon damage over stamina (certainly in medium), the %buffs as opposed to today's flat buffs were a major factor that made magicka stacking worthwhile. Nowadays who does that other than magsorcs?

DW stamsorcs were pretty common. People used Flurry in the past, now you see it very rarely. Which is strange because, if you can make it stick, that's 4 chances for proccing Crit Surge, even with low Crit Chance. DOTs were stronger and DW is a DOT / channel-focused skill line. Yes it is still used these days (on magblades ), but it's lost a lot of attractiveness. There was the patch that buffed the crap out of DOTs. IMO they were fine before that, at least in PvP, but ZOS did not exactly revert that and now we've ended up with DOT skills (not sets) that are the weakest they've ever been.

fred4

StaticWave wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

I know that sounds boring but you can’t brawl against other classes for long.

That was the whole point of this thread, being pigeonholed into a narrow playstyle, even if they're good at it.

Pretty much. I've played 1 shot builds for several months before they even became meta for the class. It's definitely strong, but only against players with less experience than you. That entire build has zero pressure outside of the 1 shot burst because you just simple don't have the survivability to stay in a prolonged fight. That makes stamsorc also very weak in group play as the moment you streak away you leave your teammate to die. All I'm asking for is more survivability so you don't have to be pidgeonholed into playing the hit and run playstyle.

Well you can go more defensive sets, like armor master BB with shuffle/elude. Pariah is always pretty good for tankiness. Heck the other guy that just posted his stamsorc builds uses daedric trickery where 3/5 buffs are purely defensive.

You are basically a stamblade without cloak, if you go glass cannon that's how you have to play.

I'm already in tank sets lol. Like I said, I'm already using meta things before they became meta. I bought a full set of pariah 1 month before Blackwood went live because I tested on PTS. I also crafted trickery and used it in preparation for Blackwood. But that isn't the point. The point is stamblades can run full dmg and still survive because of cloak + shade.

They have the exact same issues, though. If they are full damage, they're hit and run.

Stamcro is so tanky you can just chill in 2 dmg sets. Stamden is slightly weaker now but you can still be tankier than a stamsorc. All these classes are much better at surviving in less tanky sets, and when they actually do put on tank sets, they do it better than sorc. Sorc is only good at running away and isn't good at staying in a brawler fight.

Hmm. Have you ever considered playing a bow main stamsorc? I ran into a strong one some time ago (possibly a few patches). Actually I think it was a bow main stamsorc werewolf and he was good in both forms.

As to your point, those classes only have generic escape tools and that is precisely why they are tankier. They need that. Stamsorc does not. You have to pay a price for your mobility. I think if all your original recommendations were enacted, stamsorc could very easily become OP.

I'm only trying to wrap my head around this myself. As against my own argument, (stam)sorc's advantage has been diluted via Wild Hunt and Race Against Time. I don't see these used that often by tanky necros / wardens / DKs, although I do see mistforming stamcros (my friend is one) and that is really strong.

StaticWave

fred4 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ThePianist wrote: »

I know that sounds boring but you can’t brawl against other classes for long.

That was the whole point of this thread, being pigeonholed into a narrow playstyle, even if they're good at it.

Pretty much. I've played 1 shot builds for several months before they even became meta for the class. It's definitely strong, but only against players with less experience than you. That entire build has zero pressure outside of the 1 shot burst because you just simple don't have the survivability to stay in a prolonged fight. That makes stamsorc also very weak in group play as the moment you streak away you leave your teammate to die. All I'm asking for is more survivability so you don't have to be pidgeonholed into playing the hit and run playstyle.

Well you can go more defensive sets, like armor master BB with shuffle/elude. Pariah is always pretty good for tankiness. Heck the other guy that just posted his stamsorc builds uses daedric trickery where 3/5 buffs are purely defensive.

You are basically a stamblade without cloak, if you go glass cannon that's how you have to play.

I'm already in tank sets lol. Like I said, I'm already using meta things before they became meta. I bought a full set of pariah 1 month before Blackwood went live because I tested on PTS. I also crafted trickery and used it in preparation for Blackwood. But that isn't the point. The point is stamblades can run full dmg and still survive because of cloak + shade.

They have the exact same issues, though. If they are full damage, they're hit and run.

Stamcro is so tanky you can just chill in 2 dmg sets. Stamden is slightly weaker now but you can still be tankier than a stamsorc. All these classes are much better at surviving in less tanky sets, and when they actually do put on tank sets, they do it better than sorc. Sorc is only good at running away and isn't good at staying in a brawler fight.

Hmm. Have you ever considered playing a bow main stamsorc? I ran into a strong one some time ago (possibly a few patches). Actually I think it was a bow main stamsorc werewolf and he was good in both forms.

As to your point, those classes only have generic escape tools and that is precisely why they are tankier. They need that. Stamsorc does not. You have to pay a price for your mobility. I think if all your original recommendations were enacted, stamsorc could very easily become OP.

I'm only trying to wrap my head around this myself. As against my own argument, (stam)sorc's advantage has been diluted via Wild Hunt and Race Against Time. I don't see these used that often by tanky necros / wardens / DKs, although I do see mistforming stamcros (my friend is one) and that is really strong.

Yea, but cloak and shade is MUCH better than streak/bol, objectively. The class also has a better spammable and passives that fit the entire hit and run playstyle. You can't find that on a stamsorc.

I have played bow stamsorc, but I'm so fast in SnB I don't need the bow. In fact I think playing a bow sorc is a complete throw because 1) you can reach maximum movement speed without needing to roll dodge, and 2) SnB has better defense. You also don't have enough bar space to fit any extra abilities, and even if you do, the only good ability you can slot on a bow is bombard. Compared to pierce armor, reverb bash, shielded assault, bow is just inferior in everyway.

Yes stamsorcs paid the price for mobility, and I'm willing to trade that mobility for better self heals. Speed isn't even a stamsorc exclusive thing anymore this patch as wearing 5 medium armor literally gives you 25% extra speed ( 15% sprint and 10% from bonus). Combined with wild hunt and major expedition, any class can sit at 155% movement speed and 210% sprint speed. The only thing that makes stamsorc stand out in terms of mobility is streak/bol. I'm willing to trade streak/BoL for better heals, any day.

fred4

StaticWave wrote: »

Yea, but cloak and shade is MUCH better than streak/bol, objectively. The class also has a better spammable and passives that fit the entire hit and run playstyle. You can't find that on a stamsorc.

I have played bow stamsorc...

How much nightblade have you played? I play both stamsorc and nightblade, by the way, and I don't quite buy your arguments. If I remember correctly you compared Leeching Strikes favorably to Crit Surge earlier and ... no, just no. With Leeching Strkes you have to be on the attack to heal. I grant you that Crit Surge isn't great in PvP anymore, but it can proc when on defense (from Hurricane and DOTs), while you're blocking. That's a big point in it's favor. I also think that Streak and BoL are both incredibly strong skills with Dark Deal and Crystal Weapon not far behind.

I agree in principle that build variety is at the very least changing in nature from patch to patch. Maybe it's getting less. The game feels more and more homogenised, but that could be build fatigue on my part. However I disagree that Streak is as bad as you say. You can't equate that to just speed. It stuns, it reveals NBs or the other morph absorbs projectiles. Streaking twice puts you momentarily out of range of practically all opponents. I am extremely fast on my magblade in cloak, faster than the typical stamsorc, except when they streak. The reason I am so fast, by the way? To make Cloak work. Cloak / Shadow Image / Streak / BoL are all annoying to fight against, if used properly. One thing I forgot to add: You can Streak through NPCs. You can't ad hoc move through obstacles on any other class. Another strength of that skill.

Cloak is fine when it works, but it has a lot of counters. Bombard stamsorc is a pretty hard counter incidentally. Shadow Image is more cumbersome than Streak. Cloak + Shadow Image + Leeching Strikes + Grim Focus > Streak + Dark Deal + Crit Surge + Crystal Weapon? I don't really buy it. Just different.

StaticWave

fred4 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Yea, but cloak and shade is MUCH better than streak/bol, objectively. The class also has a better spammable and passives that fit the entire hit and run playstyle. You can't find that on a stamsorc.

I have played bow stamsorc...

How much nightblade have you played? I play both stamsorc and nightblade, by the way, and I don't quite buy your arguments. If I remember correctly you compared Leeching Strikes favorably to Crit Surge earlier and ... no, just no. With Leeching Strkes you have to be on the attack to heal. I grant you that Crit Surge isn't great in PvP anymore, but it can proc when on defense (from Hurricane and DOTs), while you're blocking. That's a big point in it's favor. I also think that Streak and BoL are both incredibly strong skills with Dark Deal and Crystal Weapon not far behind.

I agree in principle that build variety is at the very least changing in nature from patch to patch. Maybe it's getting less. The game feels more and more homogenised, but that could be build fatigue on my part. However I disagree that Streak is as bad as you say. You can't equate that to just speed. It stuns, it reveals NBs or the other morph absorbs projectiles. Streaking twice puts you momentarily out of range of practically all opponents. I am extremely fast on my magblade in cloak, faster than the typical stamsorc, except when they streak. The reason I am so fast, by the way? To make Cloak work. Cloak / Shadow Image / Streak / BoL are all annoying to fight against, if used properly. One thing I forgot to add: You can Streak through NPCs. You can't ad hoc move through obstacles on any other class. Another strength of that skill.

Cloak is fine when it works, but it has a lot of counters. Bombard stamsorc is a pretty hard counter incidentally. Shadow Image is more cumbersome than Streak. Cloak + Shadow Image + Leeching Strikes + Grim Focus > Streak + Dark Deal + Crit Surge + Crystal Weapon? I don't really buy it. Just different.

Mained NB for 1 year and did 1vX, smallscale, BGs, and dueling. Played rollerblade builds, brawler builds, dot builds, and even snipe builds. So I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to talk about this class. In fact just go into cyrodiil and see how many night blades there are compared to stamsorcs. If streak was truly better, you would see a lot more stamsorcs. Also if you think streaking will reveal a nb then you are actually so wrong lmao. Going straight isn't the only way a NB can go while stealthing. Good NBs will go to the left or right, forcing you to pick between the other. That's a 50/50% chance of landing the streak on a cloaking nb. Now throw in the foward path as well as going backward and you have a 1/4 chance of getting the NB. Better yet, throw in the 20/30/40/60/80 degree angles that a NB can run and it's literally by luck to even pull a good nb out of stealth.

Streak puts you out of range? Tell that to the people spamming gap closers on a streaking sorc. Cloak literally removes you from the client lol. It's an even more of a reset ability than streak because you don't take any damage while in cloak. You still take damage after streaking, and even if you use BoL you still take melee dmg from someone who's spamming gap closer.

Leeching Strikes > Crit Surge for several reasons. 1) It doesn't require stacking crit chance and can be procced consistently from range with bow. 2) It works better on offense with NB's LA weaving. 3) It returns stamina every recast. Why is it that an ability designed to utilize crit damage is given to a class that has no access to stamina crit passives, while a class that gets all the crit passives, don't have any abilities that require critting to work? It makes zero sense to me.

Alucardo

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Streak to cover, vigor, dark deal. Works for me.

I don't know if you've met Cyrodiil, but there's not always cover. Generally people will have gap closers and will use it the second they see you streak, especially if you're struggling.

Tessitura

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

gariondavey

Idk what cyro you are in but I see TONS of stam sorcs. Lol.

StaticWave

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

StaticWave

gariondavey wrote: »

Idk what cyro you are in but I see TONS of stam sorcs. Lol.

PC NA, I play grayhost before prime time and after prime time. During prime time I play blackreach or ravenwatch. I see more stamblades and magsorc than stamsorcs.

katorga

fred4 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I am not using Rally. Sooo again wrong I guess. You are just to stuck in your specific way, which maybe isn't the right one for a Stamsorc that has everything you want to have.

You can't deny that stamsorc lost a ton of versatility this patch.

Did it ever have versatility?

There were some interesting proc builds, but mostly its been a 2H/Bow hit and run class for years.

Perhaps, but since you asked "did it ever", yes it did. I saw a stamsorc tank 5 players using 1H+S / resto years ago, when 1H+S was still viable as an offensive weapon. The guy used resto heavies to restore magicka for Dark Deal. I'm guessing he probably had bigger stat pools than used today, as he would need them inbetween 1H+S ult windows while 1vXing.

High stam builds are out, Vateshran 2H is in. CP used to give us +20% stats, competing with +20% from Major Brutality / Sorcery in CP. While stam always (as long as I've been around) had a bias for weapon damage over stamina (certainly in medium), the %buffs as opposed to today's flat buffs were a major factor that made magicka stacking worthwhile. Nowadays who does that other than magsorcs?

DW stamsorcs were pretty common. People used Flurry in the past, now you see it very rarely. Which is strange because, if you can make it stick, that's 4 chances for proccing Crit Surge, even with low Crit Chance. DOTs were stronger and DW is a DOT / channel-focused skill line. Yes it is still used these days (on magblades ), but it's lost a lot of attractiveness. There was the patch that buffed the crap out of DOTs. IMO they were fine before that, at least in PvP, but ZOS did not exactly revert that and now we've ended up with DOT skills (not sets) that are the weakest they've ever been.

Well, stam sorc is one of three classes best able to maximize weapon damage. So there is that. And flat stats from CP give me more magicka pool than 20% did, so better dark deal. A free 8% stam is not wasted. Overall a decent proc set class.

Eitherway Dizzy has been the staple stamsorc build for years. Everything else was niche. fwiw, I loved dw/draugrkin way back.

gariondavey

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Idk what cyro you are in but I see TONS of stam sorcs. Lol.

PC NA, I play grayhost before prime time and after prime time. During prime time I play blackreach or ravenwatch. I see more stamblades and magsorc than stamsorcs.

I play na ravenwatch and there are a ton of stamsorcs

StaticWave

gariondavey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Idk what cyro you are in but I see TONS of stam sorcs. Lol.

PC NA, I play grayhost before prime time and after prime time. During prime time I play blackreach or ravenwatch. I see more stamblades and magsorc than stamsorcs.

I play na ravenwatch and there are a ton of stamsorcs

Are they in proc sets?

gariondavey

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Idk what cyro you are in but I see TONS of stam sorcs. Lol.

PC NA, I play grayhost before prime time and after prime time. During prime time I play blackreach or ravenwatch. I see more stamblades and magsorc than stamsorcs.

I play na ravenwatch and there are a ton of stamsorcs

Are they in proc sets?

No, many in high damage stat sets, sometimes with vate 2h on back bar for a little burst action

xeNNNNN

Biro123 wrote: »

Haha - sorry, not laughing at you - just how some things never change.

Recently came back to the game after around 3? years - used to be both a stamsorc and then magsorc main..

Sorcs have been asking for pets to be single-slottable for-ever. I can't see it ever happening. Zos went down the route of buffing them instead some time back.
Dark Deal used to be instant-cast - but people complained (boy, did they complain about it) so it was nerfed. I'm not sure I've ever seen Zos directly undo a nerf before. (for me that made stamsorc lose its fun - seemed to spend way too much time re-casting buffs/dark-dealing on the class rather than just fighting - I've always thought hurricane needs a longer duration)

I don't really understand yet what's changed with crit-chance and impen.. I've just picked up that 'something' has.. but I never really saw crit-surge as a really useful heal in the burst-game that is cyro.

To be fair, dark deal was obnoxious, all that speed + dodge in between casts for the amount it heals.

It should of still been an instant cast but they should of reduced the amount it returned. There some extremely disgusting builds back then as well which just made things worse.

WeylandLabs

As a Stam Sorc main since 2015 with over 15k+ hours...

There are only 3 stam sorcs in the game

95% use 2h only burst - front bar

4% use DW with burst playstyle before and after crystal weapon - front bar

1% use DW full dot

I see 95% of stam sorcs on here having 1 playstyle and all the builds to support there arguments of them saying there is no problem.

I feel to the OP because they are clearly the 1% or the 4% everything shouldn't be a dps test dummie playstyle !

StaticWave

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

xylena_lazarow

Another huge difference: Streak ramps in cost, Cloak does not.

Tessitura

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

ketsparrowhawk

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

StaticWave

Tessitura wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

The only thing wrong with this is they are already so *** strong a buff won't change the play style at all, they will play the same way but be harder to kill. They do so much single target damage right now they can one shot people again in non CP settings with how front loaded their medium attacks are. Is it only one play style? Yes, but it's a busted play style. If they unloaded how much damage they can do in a single hit then sure, I would be all for some buffs there, but honestly stam builds don't need anymore help right now.

Stam sorc is doing better then it has in a long time. I feel like the proc changes didn't even happen with the vate/crystal weapon hits. Generally i just gotta pick a small squad of dudes, streak for unblockable stun, drop dawnbringer and then medium attack one and it's a kill, the others on on the defense and I can usually get one more kill out of it before I run for a tree.

And how many proc sets are those stamsorcs using?

One usually. I just use Heartland and vate. But what does it matter? It's very effective with just vate. Deadlands is pretty popular on stamsorc right now to add an extra blow to the medium attack weave but it's not needed. I just don't see your point, stam sorcs are really *** strong right now.

I saw someone else saying there is only one real set up for stam sorc and I again ask, what does it matter? The proposed changes won't fix that, it will just make that one play style stronger. With out a nerf to the style you wont see build diversity. Unfortunately diversity only comes with limitations and this game lacks those.

Because procs are free damage and does not indicate whether a stamsorc is strong or not. Use the same procs on a different class and they perform better. Look at no proc cyrodiil for example. Magsorc instantly became toptier and demonstrates a class imbalance issue that procs cannot solve.

The proposed changes will make sorc tankier. If you have played this class correctly you will know they struggle with bar space if they want to slot on damage. You cannot slot all 3 of the suggested changes on your bar. You will have to either give up damage for more survivability, or give up survivability for more damage. That's working as intended, but at the moment you are still squishier than other classes despite slotting more survivability abilities. The proposed changes will help players who do not want to use rally, players who just want to face tank by sacrificing dmg, or players who simply want more healing.

StaticWave

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Draevik

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

I do fight fellow stamsorcs that have streaked from me like 6 times, or streaked back and forth constantly just to get the stun. It is super annoying. I guess they invested into magicka more, so good on them. Streak is so incredibly overpowered that it makes sense to use it, although my noob self doesn't because it just feels cheesy. Although I may start, but I do love me some defensive rune

ketsparrowhawk

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

Afterip

StaticWave wrote: »

Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup.

What about Streak? As far as I know, this is the only one skill that breaks through the block and stuns you.

Draevik

Afterip wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup.

What about Streak? As far as I know, this is the only one skill that breaks through the block and stuns you.

There are more stuns that break through block than just streak, fossilize and rune prison(plus morphs), but yes streak is unblockable

StaticWave

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I guess I don't understand why it's bad for a class to have a particular playstyle they excel at? If you want a brawler there are multiple classes that are very good at that. The mobility-based playstyle is why you choose a sorc.

In BG's stamSorcs are by far the most annoying spec I go up against. They've been dominating for a few patches now. Uniquely capable of stacking extreme damage thanks to Dark Deal. And the second you light-attack them they streak 15 times across the map. With the stat increases last patch they're more annoying than ever.

Buffing their survivability would be silly imo. They already never die because of streak + dark deal. Give them extra healing AND let them keep streak? No thanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

For whoever said stamsorc is god tier. Here is a screenshot of a duel between me and another person. I lost to this guy on my stamsorc, so I hopped on my stamblade using the SAME gear with Balorgh, Pariah, Trickery. The opponent I fought was in 29.5k resistances. This is the damage I did to him on stamblade:



On stamsorc I hit him for a 5.3k max crit dizzy. Survivability is also better on a stamblade despite it being "squishier". What a joke lmao

PvP is not and should not be balanced around dueling. Hop into a BG and see who is getting the best results. It's stamSorcs.

I see a lot of exaggeration in your post. Streaking 15 times with my 14k mag pool? What? They already never die? You must have never fought a sweaty game with 4 people stacking DoTs then.

I play in high MMR BGs and the "dominating" stamsorcs you mentioned are in triple procsets. That isn't an indication of stamsorc's strength or weakness. You don't understand the weakness of that setup do you? The entire build frontloads damage into 1s with 3 proc sets and if you cannot kill someone you streak away with zero resources & spam dark deal. That playstyle only works on inexperienced players and unorganized groups. Any good player would simply hold block negating 80% of the combo's dmg, as I have been doing against every single stamsorc running that setup. That's not "dominating". It's smashing people who don't know how to counter it. But you can just hop on a stamcro with a simple stat build and still 1 shot most players. Why don't people talk about that?

If you played stamsorc you would understand that they cannot fit everything onto their bar right now. You are giving up damage for more survivability, or survivability for more damage. Every stamsorc should have dark deal, streak, hurricane, vigor on their bar. Now that leaves us with 6 abilities. If you use 2h/SnB, you have to slot rally and executioner, leaving 4 slots left for damage. Some people go for dizzy + camohunter + bound + crit surge. But that means they don't have access to elude, which is an amazing defensive ability, or crystal weapon, which is a very good burst, or ransack, which is a source of penetration. Transfer that to other weapon setups, and you get the idea. The point is, the current stamsorc has issues with bar space, so the proposed changes will not make the sorc "invincible". You still have to give up damage, and stamsorc damage is by no means good. I mean just look at my screenshot of my nb compared to my stamsorc in the same gear. My nb does twice the damage.

Yes obviously 15x streak is an exaggeration. My MMR is also high (typically up against top leaderboard players) but I do spend most of my playtime in the solo Q. I do premades 1-2 nights a week.

My stamsorc uses Briarheart + Sword Dancer + Torq + Master Bow. Not a cheesy proc build at all. Still, I rarely play on that char anymore because it feels quite cheesy to me. What you call a weakness I say is stamSorcs biggest strength. They can zip in, try to burst someone down, and if they take a little damage, zip wayyy away, hide in a corner, recover resources, then zip back and try again and again. Unblockable streak makes holding block difficult. And really, you could say that about countering almost any spec, right? "Just hold block!" Not really particular to stamSorcs.

On my build with Torq + Dark Deal, I don't invest into sustain at all. I just stack damage as high as I can and as long as I play smart I'm never low on resources. So giving up a couple of damage abilities is nbd to me because my WD and crit are already quite high. Giving up evasion is also nbd to me. If I'm in a premade then I'm likely getting it from a healer wearing Gossamer, and if I'm solo I don't need it.

The screenshot doesn't tell a complete story. StamBlades are certainly not out-performing stamSorcs in BG's. StamSorc is a popular spec right now for a reason.

I've killed plenty of stamsorcs in 1 shot builds that tried to stun me with streak. The problem with streak when not used correctly is it puts you out of distance of your target and wastes time. Other than that streak is pretty dumb as an ability.

When you streak away you leave your teammates to tank incoming damage and that isn't ideal in any scenario unless you have a healer. I also do openworld 2vX or 3vX with no healer, and stamsorcs using a hit and run setup is basically a watered down NB. The only useful utility they provide for a group is streak/ball of lightning, but that's it. I would rather play a warden in groups than a stamsorc.

Running a full dmg build like yours will most likely result in death. You have zero survivability other than roll spamming, which btw isn't very effective on stamsorc because you cannot reset dodge cost increase like a nb can with cloak. BG also isn't a good measure for a class' strength or weakness because they are covered by a healer or other specs in your team. Stamblades are objectively better than stamsorcs in everything but group play, and that is only due to the fact that they don't have streak. They have much better critical damage passives and can perfectly fill the roll of a bombard spammer.