Trader swap issue - EU server

Gandrhulf_Harbard

VaranisArano wrote: »

They can't. They'll delete what they can.

Where I disagree is that there's no longer any "doing the right thing". Not 4 days later.

Letting the gold they can't delete go and impact of inflation slowly level itself out is the wrong thing to do.

Rolling back all progress on the server for 4 days is also the wrong thing to do.

There is no "right" thing to do. Both are wrong.

And I'd argue that one of those is less wrong than the other. Specifically, ZOS can mitigate the impact of the extra gold by deleting what they can and dealing with the inflation. ZOS can't mitigate the removal of 4 days worth of progress from the entire server. That impacts every player who logged on in all aspects of the game, including PVP campaign scores, leaderboards, the Orsinium Festival, daily quests and writs, and so on. Redoing 4 days of progress is much worse than an inconvenience.

A four day rollback is the most harmful choice ZOS could choose, doing immediate and obvious harm to the most amount of players.

I'd argue that "letting exploiters benefit from an exploit" is ALWAYS the most wrong thing to do.

It sends entirely the wrong message, and actively encourages the use of exploits.

Maybe my several years active experience in cheat detection and cheater banning in MMOFPS games colours my perception here.

I concede that rolling back causes problems, but on balance I believe it to be the "least worst option" because it is the only option that prevents gain being accrued by the use of exploits.


All The Best

VaranisArano

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

They can't. They'll delete what they can.

Where I disagree is that there's no longer any "doing the right thing". Not 4 days later.

Letting the gold they can't delete go and impact of inflation slowly level itself out is the wrong thing to do.

Rolling back all progress on the server for 4 days is also the wrong thing to do.

There is no "right" thing to do. Both are wrong.

And I'd argue that one of those is less wrong than the other. Specifically, ZOS can mitigate the impact of the extra gold by deleting what they can and dealing with the inflation. ZOS can't mitigate the removal of 4 days worth of progress from the entire server. That impacts every player who logged on in all aspects of the game, including PVP campaign scores, leaderboards, the Orsinium Festival, daily quests and writs, and so on. Redoing 4 days of progress is much worse than an inconvenience.

A four day rollback is the most harmful choice ZOS could choose, doing immediate and obvious harm to the most amount of players.

I'd argue that "letting exploiters benefit from an exploit" is ALWAYS the most wrong thing to do.

It sends entirely the wrong message, and actively encourages the use of exploits.

Maybe my several years active experience in cheat detection and cheater banning in MMOFPS games colours my perception here.

I concede that rolling back causes problems, but on balance I believe it to be the "least worst option" because it is the only option that prevents gain being accrued by the use of exploits.


All The Best

A 4 day rollback isnt the only way for ZOS to deal with exploiters. They can track who spend the excessive refunds in violation of the TOS and punish those players as they deem appropriate.

I can see we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I see a 4 day rollback as further punishing every player on the server by reverting their progress, in the service of removing the excessive gold (which ZOS can do via other means, though perhaps not perfectly).

tahol10069

Arguing if there should be a rollback at this point is useless waste of energy and time. There won't be a rollback. They should've done it in few hours after the feces hit the fan, and they would've done it then if they ever would. They won't do it now. If a person wants to keep hitting their head at the concrete wall shouting "only logical thing to do is a rollback", by all means, it is your head hurting not mine. But it won't change a thing, and I have no idea what someone gets from banging their head to a concrete wall. I know I stopped doing that long time ago.

I absolutely think they should've done the rollback right when they knew how things went south in EU. That would've been the most sensible thing to do. But now it is too late. No game will do a rollback where people will lose days of playtime. Few hours, maybe even a day, but never four days. Too much has happened.

I don't actually give two flying f's if someone gets banned or not at this point. Fighting about it has only managed to shadow the real sufferers:

Guilds who won a trader and still didn't get one, and on top of that, lost their bid money. But no one seems to care about that. Everyone is too busy fighting about who should be banned, semantics and being outright delusional. Not one word has been said if we will ever get our money back.

For me this is the third week without a trader. Two weeks was alright, it happens. This week is too much because we did win the bid, but someone took our trader. Money is gone. I know that our GM & Co emptied the whole bank to this one bid, because they wanted to get our trader back. I'm not a sentimental guy, but I really feel bad for them. And I'm still fuming.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

VaranisArano wrote: »

A 4 day rollback isnt the only way for ZOS to deal with exploiters. They can track who spend the excessive refunds in violation of the TOS and punish those players as they deem appropriate.

I can see we're going to have to agree to disagree, because I see a 4 day rollback as further punishing every player on the server by reverting their progress, in the service of removing the excessive gold (which ZOS can do via other means, though perhaps not perfectly).

Fair enough.

I don't expect or desire for everyone to agree with me on everything.

I see one way - rollback - that prevents all exploiters from benefiting.
I see another way - deleting gold - that allows some exploiters to get away with their wrong-doing.

To me only one of those makes any sense; but I concede that I don't expect too many people to agree with me. Most people will put up with other people's wrong-doing if the solution to it impacts them in a way they see as negative.

It's why the world is the way it is.


All The Best

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

I see one way - rollback - that prevents all exploiters from benefiting.
I see another way - deleting gold - that allows some exploiters to get away with their wrong-doing.

To me only one of those makes any sense; but I concede that I don't expect too many people to agree with me. Most people will put up with other people's wrong-doing if the solution to it impacts them in a way they see as negative.

It's why the world is the way it is.

LoL. Ever thought of side effects and side victims ? Minimizing collateral damage ?

[snip]

[edited for spoiler]

StabbityDoom

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

There are less harmful ways to remove the money that is still extant, as for the market - the market will readjust, because it always does. Look at the anniversary motif event, it kills everything motif for months. The market gets back to normal.

The market may adjust.

But until it does those that exploited the bug are still making bank on short-term massively inflated prices.

So that does not achieve the goal of removing ALL the Market Impact of the duped gold.


All The Best

Look, sometimes people get advantages in games. RNG, bugs, you name it. Some are going to get windfalls. Letting the jealousy/anger about it get to you is your choice, but I choose to just say "ok, it happened, let's move on."

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

# I disagree: u definitely can run multiple guilds as one person. there are even accounts owning 2 guilds (if zos changes it that way its possible), u can also just use ur alt acc as gm account and make ur main vize-gm, so yes one person can have multiple guilds.

Technically, you can't (only one crown per account). But I know that concretely, you can (just the way you describe).
I didn't go into details on that one because it wasn't the main topic, but my point is, you may be the decision maker for several guilds, you may be the fund raiser for several guilds, but you never do it alone, you cannot do it alone. You must gather trustworthy people around you (not an easy thing in an MMO), you must manage those people and delegate tasks. That's why I think that writing down / remembering bids isn't above anyone's capacity - because they're not alone.

I agree with everything else you said ;-) (yes yes yes, we agree sometimes, what a world full of surprises xD )

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

A "credible" solution not only has to theoretically achieve the desired goal, it has to be likely to be deliverable.

It's not perfect, but it's much more "deliverable" than a 4-day rollback.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

A "rollback" to an existing data-set is several orders of magnitude easier than your proposal.

There we disagree. Because you don't take collateral damage into account.
Besides : technically, there's been an update between now and the day you suggest we should rollback . I think it makes a rollback technically impossible.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

You think ZoS is going to pay someone to do all this manually?

I don't know what ZOS will or will not do, but I know they can and I think they should.

Tandor

Few will argue that exploiters should not be dealt with, and few will argue that the most effective way of doing that is by penalising the rest of the players who have done nothing wrong. If any guild leaderships are found by ZOS to have exploited this situation then they should be dealt with in the usual way for exploits, the severity of the action being based on the severity of the offence and the account history of those involved.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

StabbityDoom wrote: »

Look, sometimes people get advantages in games. RNG, bugs, you name it. Some are going to get windfalls. Letting the jealousy/anger about it get to you is your choice, but I choose to just say "ok, it happened, let's move on."

I'm not jealous.

I'm not even angry.

I am disappointed - that so many players are happy to allow wrong-doing to flourish and wrong-doers to profit just because the way to prevent both means they lose a few pixels.

I don't care how much gold some people will make from this. That is side-effect.

I'm dealing with the Core Principle: don't let wrong-doers profit from their wrong-doing - it just encourage more of that wrong behaviour.

It is called having principles.

Like I said, the world is as it is because so few people have them, because having them may at times be inconvenient.


All The Best

anitajoneb17_ESO

Newwwwws !

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490694/pc-na-eu-patch-maintenance-8-23-19-4am-edt#latest

Looks like we'll know more about the extra gold issue before the next trader flip - which matters A LOT.

VaranisArano

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

StabbityDoom wrote: »

Look, sometimes people get advantages in games. RNG, bugs, you name it. Some are going to get windfalls. Letting the jealousy/anger about it get to you is your choice, but I choose to just say "ok, it happened, let's move on."

I'm not jealous.

I'm not even angry.

I am disappointed - that so many players are happy to allow wrong-doing to flourish and wrong-doers to profit just because the way to prevent both means they lose a few pixels.

I don't care how much gold some people will make from this. That is side-effect.

I'm dealing with the Core Principle: don't let wrong-doers profit from their wrong-doing - it just encourage more of that wrong behaviour.

It is called having principles.

Like I said, the world is as it is because so few people have them, because having them may at times be inconvenient.


All The Best

Its not necessarily a bad principle to have.

But kindly don't make it sound like the rest of us don't have principles because we don't agree that preventing wrong-doers from profiting via a 4 day rollback is the only correct option.

Moreover, just because you continue to call a 4 day rollback an inconvenience and "losing a few pixels" does not make that description accurate.

I have laid out for you some of the costs:
Lost PVP campaign scores - that's 4 days forth of effort across four 24-hour campaigns
Leaderboard runs for trials, arenas, and battlegrounds
Countless daily quests run, questlines that have to be repeated, achievements that must be repeated, an unknown amount of RNG gear and reward drops across the server.
The final 12 or so hours of the Orsinium event including purchases from the Impresario and vMA runs.

All of that and more...erased.

Have some respect for your fellow players and acknowledge their effort. A four day rollback would be an immense sacrifice. Not an inconvenience. Not losing a few pixels.

You do your argument no favors by minimizing the gravity of what you suggest.

hiyde

If, like me, you're tired of a few people that do nothing but troll, insult, spew negativity and derail threads, it is possible to globally ignore their posts.

Click their name in a post -> click the "people" icon on their page -> choose "ignore".

Sadly, it doesn't remove quotes by others, but it's something.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

VaranisArano wrote: »

But kindly don't make it sound like the rest of us don't have principles because we don't agree that preventing wrong-doers from profiting via a 4 day rollback is the only correct option.

Well, I apologise if you I have offended you.

I just don't see any other option, so far put forward, that adheres to the principle I laid out.

And really, in the larger picture, it is just a minor inconvenience over pixels.

I started back with LOTRO a few weeks back, I'm playing maybe 3 hours a day trying to level to the new cap.

If a week rollback was required I'd lose - across my different toons - 60-65 total levels. But if that rollback was the only way to fix a serious issue I'd accept it.

Yes, I'd be a bit unhappy, but if it was necessary I'd accept it - because lost pixel is, no matter what we think, at most a minor inconvenience.

None of what we do in these games is anything more than trying to find an enjoyable way to pass a little time.

It doesn't define us, it doesn't change the course of our lives, it doesn't affect our life prospects.

Minor inconvenience... ...at worst.


All The Best

VaranisArano

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

But kindly don't make it sound like the rest of us don't have principles because we don't agree that preventing wrong-doers from profiting via a 4 day rollback is the only correct option.

Well, I apologise if you I have offended you.

I just don't see any other option, so far put forward, that adheres to the principle I laid out.

And really, in the larger picture, it is just a minor inconvenience over pixels.

I started back with LOTRO a few weeks back, I'm playing maybe 3 hours a day trying to level to the new cap.

If a week rollback was required I'd lose - across my different toons - 60-65 total levels. But if that rollback was the only way to fix a serious issue I'd accept it.

Yes, I'd be a bit unhappy, but if it was necessary I'd accept it - because lost pixel is, no matter what we think, at most a minor inconvenience.

None of what we do in these games is anything more than trying to find an enjoyable way to pass a little time.

It doesn't define us, it doesn't change the course of our lives, it doesn't affect our life prospects.

Minor inconvenience... ...at worst.


All The Best

If that's the principle you are going with, there probably isnt another path.

The principle I'm going with it closer to "In my haste to see that wrongdoing is prevented, don't trample the innocent."

So its entirely possible to be acting according to our principles and still disagree...in fact, I'd argue that people acting on opposing principles causes lots of disagreements, even or perhaps because of having the best intentions.

I do disagree with the "oh, your lost progress is just a minor inconvenience in the long run" because that can just as easily be turned around on your argument. "Oh, exploiting a video game is just a minor part of life in the long run..." In fact, I see that very argument used far too often by the folks who argue for ignoring all wrongdoing in video games. I think its a bad argument when used that way, so I find it unconvincing when applied selectively here.

Anyways, since we're disagreeing on principles, we arent going to convince each other. I appreciate the apology, and I hope you understand why other players might value different principles than you do.

Ardaghion

I don't know if it's been mentioned earlier in this thread but it does look like some traders on EU have tried selling some mats for very high prices compared to NA since around the 19th.

I have an app that keeps price history for about a week and I can search NA and EU for any items for sale. The app has low, average and high prices, although it doesn't show how many listing are at each price. The average isn't weighted. A high could be 1 trader or many.

Tempering Alloy High: NA 50k all week, EU 35k 19 Aug, up to 70k on 20 Aug
Dreugh Wax High: NA 20k early in the week, dropped to 14k 18 Aug, EU 20k 18 Aug, shot up to 99k on 20 Aug
Rosin High: NA 8.5k currently, EU 30k 19 Aug, shot to 306k on 20 Aug

I guess there could be any number of reasons why some people would ask such high prices starting on 20 Aug, I won't speculate.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

VaranisArano wrote: »

[
Anyways, since we're disagreeing on principles, we arent going to convince each other. I appreciate the apology, and I hope you understand why other players might value different principles than you do.

I understand entirely.

Of course the real problem with principles is we tend to be to fixed on them; but if we weren't would they be principles.


All The Best

Gargath

What's your favourite guild trader this week, mine is this one in Mournhold

Blobsky

Interesting read for those uninformed on the issue. This is from Zos_KaiSchober, German GM for Zenimax. He provides a few facts on the issue in an interview to MMO website.

Also shows how far out of proportion a few jokes have somehow taken this all xD

https://mein-mmo.de/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-interview-bug-sonntag/

NB: Google chrome automatically translates it

VaranisArano

Blobsky wrote: »

Interesting read for those uninformed on the issue. This is from Zos_KaiSchober, German GM for Zenimax. He provides a few facts on the issue in an interview to MMO website.

Also shows how far out of proportion a few jokes have somehow taken this all xD

https://mein-mmo.de/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-interview-bug-sonntag/

NB: Google chrome automatically translates it

Thanks for the link!

Now I'm very sad I didnt think of the "Black Sunday" joke. That one is pretty good!

Its great to hear that, from ZOS' perspective, the gold added to economy wasn't large enough to be inflationary.

Thorvarg

The "best" passage is:

It's often just a small but still very loud part of the community that makes it a conflict. So again with the guild traders.

It is always difficult to convey that such fundamental corrections as performance improvements are not something you can fix overnight with another line of code. We have been working behind the scenes for quite some time on the improvements and we were finally able to inform the QuakeCon team.

Imho, that is insulting and pure fooling!

Dont_do_drugs

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its great to hear that, from ZOS' perspective, the gold added to economy wasn't large enough to be inflationary.

he stated he doesnt have any numbers or official information, hes just guessing.

Thorvarg

VaranisArano wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Interesting read for those uninformed on the issue. This is from Zos_KaiSchober, German GM for Zenimax. He provides a few facts on the issue in an interview to MMO website.

Also shows how far out of proportion a few jokes have somehow taken this all xD

https://mein-mmo.de/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-interview-bug-sonntag/

NB: Google chrome automatically translates it

Its great to hear that, from ZOS' perspective, the gold added to economy wasn't large enough to be inflationary.

It's ZOS perspecive, nothing else. And it was far more than some hundred millions.

VaranisArano

Thorvarg wrote: »

The "best" passage is:

It's often just a small but still very loud part of the community that makes it a conflict. So again with the guild traders.

It is always difficult to convey that such fundamental corrections as performance improvements are not something you can fix overnight with another line of code. We have been working behind the scenes for quite some time on the improvements and we were finally able to inform the QuakeCon team.

Imho, that is insulting and pure fooling!

I got a chuckle out of that as well! Even as one of the posters often advocating for ZOS to take a hard line against exploiters.

I do think the "deeds are always better than words" are going to be the most important thing moving forward with performance issues and communication.

Words help, when ZOS communicates in a consistent and timely fashion.

Deeds take time, but they are essential for rebuilding that communuty trust in a game that's often had serious issues following major updates.

Dont_do_drugs

Blobsky wrote: »

Interesting read for those uninformed on the issue. This is from Zos_KaiSchober, German GM for Zenimax. He provides a few facts on the issue in an interview to MMO website.

Also shows how far out of proportion a few jokes have somehow taken this all xD

https://mein-mmo.de/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-interview-bug-sonntag/

NB: Google chrome automatically translates it

sweetie, i know u quite long. if theres something i know about u, then that u are pretty fast with sensitive information and speak before thinking. something inside of me is just thinking...that's getting odd here. even if i am testing your possible bids realistically and multiply the losing ones with 4, not even using 10 bids, i am pretty much aware that the amount of refunded gold for u has a high chance of esceeding the 1 billion mark.... somethings just getting odd, if u now start claiming it a joke.

Thorvarg

"It's often just a small but very loud part of the community that is making a mess of it, including the guild traders."
Source: https: //mein-mmo.de/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-interview-bug-sonntag/

This statement reminds me of statements by absolutist regimes, to distract from their own failures and abuses in the country.

Thorvarg

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Interesting read for those uninformed on the issue. This is from Zos_KaiSchober, German GM for Zenimax. He provides a few facts on the issue in an interview to MMO website.

Also shows how far out of proportion a few jokes have somehow taken this all xD

https://mein-mmo.de/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-interview-bug-sonntag/

NB: Google chrome automatically translates it

sweetie, i know u quite long. if theres something i know about u, then that u are pretty fast with sensitive information and speak before thinking. something inside of me is just thinking...that's getting odd here. even if i am testing your possible bids realistically and multiply the losing ones with 4, not even using 10 bids, i am pretty much aware that the amount of refunded gold for u has a high chance of esceeding the 1 billion mark.... somethings just getting odd, if u now start claiming it a joke.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6283823#Comment_6283823

#11 , #13 and #14

Blobsky

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Interesting read for those uninformed on the issue. This is from Zos_KaiSchober, German GM for Zenimax. He provides a few facts on the issue in an interview to MMO website.

Also shows how far out of proportion a few jokes have somehow taken this all xD

https://mein-mmo.de/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-interview-bug-sonntag/

NB: Google chrome automatically translates it

sweetie, i know u quite long. if theres something i know about u, then that u are pretty fast with sensitive information and speak before thinking. something inside of me is just thinking...that's getting odd here. even if i am testing your possible bids realistically and multiply the losing ones with 4, not even using 10 bids, i am pretty much aware that the amount of refunded gold for u has a high chance of esceeding the 1 billion mark.... somethings just getting odd, if u now start claiming it a joke.

2 of my guilds got no refund at all and lost all their bid on every spot - this is widely known info (They were 2 of the 3 that could also not hire instantly after winning their bid). Anyway, I am sure Zos fix everything to do with that - I am less sure what happens next week xD

StabbityDoom

hiyde wrote: »

If, like me, you're tired of a few people that do nothing but troll, insult, spew negativity and derail threads, it is possible to globally ignore their posts.

Click their name in a post -> click the "people" icon on their page -> choose "ignore".

Sadly, it doesn't remove quotes by others, but it's something.

I learned something new today!

Dont_do_drugs

Blobsky wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Interesting read for those uninformed on the issue. This is from Zos_KaiSchober, German GM for Zenimax. He provides a few facts on the issue in an interview to MMO website.

Also shows how far out of proportion a few jokes have somehow taken this all xD

https://mein-mmo.de/elder-scrolls-online-zenimax-interview-bug-sonntag/

NB: Google chrome automatically translates it

sweetie, i know u quite long. if theres something i know about u, then that u are pretty fast with sensitive information and speak before thinking. something inside of me is just thinking...that's getting odd here. even if i am testing your possible bids realistically and multiply the losing ones with 4, not even using 10 bids, i am pretty much aware that the amount of refunded gold for u has a high chance of esceeding the 1 billion mark.... somethings just getting odd, if u now start claiming it a joke.

2 of my guilds got no refund at all and lost all their bid on every spot - this is widely known info (They were 2 of the 3 that could also not hire instantly after winning their bid). Anyway, I am sure Zos fix everything to do with that - I am less sure what happens next week xD

stop even trying.