Trader swap issue - EU server

chess1ukb16_ESO

Cani wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

how in the World would you know how much you actually gained ONLY from the Bidding bug?

Of course you need the bank history. But you have it (Ireniicus confirmed it).
Now WITH the bank history, it's not hard to know which is which. Member donations appear under the name of the donor, bid refunds appear differently, clearly defined as such. Sales taxes also appear clearly defined as such. It's not hard at all to sort out.

I understand the confusion and the hassle, but I explained in this thread (in the naive intention to help) how to calculate things easily. Especially that you don't need to know precisely what trader you won (in theory), what bids you gor refunded or how many times. Just sum it up and there you go. You know how much gold you must leave there untouched in order for ZOS to be able to delete it.

Well your first Paragraph is just wrong.
You have the History WHILE YOUR ONLINE.
Nothing more, and as soon as you log of its gone. (checking it at the Moment) Yep, doenst work for me, still no History!

Your second Paragraph doesnt make sense.
How would you know how to calculate it, if none of the GMs who did that for YEARS dont know how?

I'm sorry but i do not Trust someone with that who i only know from some Forum Posts...
Heck, i dont even trust myself with it.

I am sure your Posts are well intended, but you show nothing but disrespect, act like a know-it-all and all that under the protection of anonymity, while you deduct only Quotes from previous Posts who you are willing to answer, therefore trying to get other People to misinterpret the original meaning of said Posts.

Please, just read the things people said who actually have experience in it...

Hi Cani - Anita is a troll of course so not to be reasoned with and honestly best ignored.

That said if you disable every addon that uses guild history e.g. Shissu guild tools and master merchant. log off completely and log back in again from the login box, your entire 10-day donation and sales history will be available albeit may need to manually go backwards. Then reenable the addons whilst this data is still cached on your character and perhaps do an mm missing and voila. data.

StabbityDoom

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Hi. I'll quickly answer that, when you run multiple guilds with 10x's each. No. It isn't simple. We can forget. We are human like everyone else. We have jobs and families outside of the game as well. Also, the history isn't active. We can't even look it up. Many things aren't working properly, and we have no idea which spots we legitimately one. It just says we won, and yet the spots were still empty. Not to mention, most of us don't keep our gold in the bank. It's too easy to make a costly mistake with both bidding and hiring with this fiddly system. I hope. That helps to clear it up a wee bit.

No, it doesn't clear it up at all. It IS simple. It doesn't take time. It doesn't take any accounting or maths skills, just simple logic. And you don't need to know which one you legitimately won since you have none. Or if you have one, then you know which one you won.
And don't tell me you don't remember how much you bid. That's something you think of all week.
And don't tell me you run multiple guilds : you don't, you can't. You can only be the GM of ONE guild in ESO. So even if you make decisions for several guilds, there are people around you who know how much you bid, and it is most likely written down somewhere.

No, really, I'm not buying the "I don't know how much is mine and how much I'm supposed to give back to ZOS". Really. No.

It all comes down to :

+ (PLUS)how much I've bid (all together)
- (MINUS) The one amount of the one bid I actually won and have the trader for (that could be zero if you have no trader at all)
- (MINUS) 10K for hiring a trader manually (if you have, else it's zero too)
- (MINUS) how much I've got reimbursed (all together)

Sum all this up : if your grand total is in a plus, ZOS owes you this amount, if your grand total is negative, you owe that money to ZOS.

Easy.

It just shows more and more that you don't know how the trade system works, or how GMs run trade guilds properly. No we don't all remember how much we bid in every guild we have, because each bid was different. We can only approximate which isn't the same as knowing the exact amount. We got multiple winning messages for each guild. Any of them at any amount could've won. You don't know me or which guilds I run. All you have here are faulty assumptions as always, which is why no one takes you seriously anymore. Learn about the trade system then come back, and tell us something, because right now you have nothing. You're just flinging around insults to those who try to be patient with your ignorance. We all see that you play the forums all day instead of the game.

Cheers

You diminished your argument with personal attacks. EDIT: I saw the dumpster fire that erupted after this post, so I'm getting the heck away from it.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Tandor wrote: »

Personally, as a non-trader I'm finding the discussion generally very informative. I also find it very relevant notwithstanding my lack of involvement in trading because of the view that the whole megaserver should be rolled back, for a couple of weeks even, and that involves everyone be they traders or not.

You've admitted you that you are not a Trader (neither am I) and don't use the Trade Kiosks as a Customer (I do).

As such you are 100% insulated from the price inflation the duped Billions of gold have created.

I would guess that Players who never use the Trade System at all are a very, very, very, small minority. Somewhere south of 3% I would guess.

That means somewhere north of 90% of players have been affected by this, the vast majority of them (given how small a % of players can access the Trade System as a Seller - something I know you feel strongly about) negatively.

A rollback is the ONLY sensible solution.

That leaving it longer and longer until it happens means more people lose more "progress" is NOT a reason not to do it.

The deciding factor on whether or not it should be done is "Is there another solution that reverses the total impact of all that duped gold".

And the answer to that is no there isn't because ZoS don't know how to build, maintain or pull data from databases.
If they did this fuster-cluck would never have happened in the first place.



All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard

StabbityDoom wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Ecstatica wrote: »

Everyone talking about a rollback, I think we should be more concerned that Sunday is approaching again and as nothing has been addressed, done or changed, surely it's entirely plausible that the exact same thing is going to happen again.

Which is just another reason a rollback makes sense.

If they can't fix the duped gold after one weekend what chance after two?

And now people know what the bug does how many people are setting up "dump accounts" to offload deliberately exploited gold so they can drip feed it into their real accounts and not get caught?

If people think the economy is borked now, after an accidental exploit, imagine how borked it will be when hundreds of players start deliberately exploiting that bug.


All The Best

ROLLBACK most of a week's play? isn't going to happen.

Well given the forum is full of "game sucks so bad can't even play" posts I can safely assume that not much at all - in the larger scheme of things - will be lost.

All The Best

reoskit

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

That said if you disable every addon that uses guild history e.g. Shissu guild tools and master merchant. log off completely and log back in again from the login box, your entire 10-day donation and sales history will be available albeit may need to manually go backwards. Then reenable the addons whilst this data is still cached on your character and perhaps do an mm missing and voila. data.

Whaaaaaaaat?!

*leaves work immediately*

JK, I'm not clicking show more for 5 days of Mournhold-sized trade data. Hello, spamming kick from server. But, still, this is kinda great! Thank you for sharing.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cani wrote: »

How would you know how to calculate it, if none of the GMs who did that for YEARS dont know how?

Because it's basic maths.
And I don't think the GMs have been doing this for YEARS : as far as I know, they haven't been dealing with extra refunded gold every week for years, have they... ?

I love how GMs think their "experience" makes them wise in everything (and everyone else dumb for that matter) when they, themselves, claim they don't think of writing basic things down and they can't calculate a simple account balance. They don't have to know everything but they can listen to people who know. Whether they're GMs or not.

And if you think my answers are condescending, maybe have a look at yours first : "we're GMs we know, you don't". How does THAT sound... ?

JN_Slevin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

How would you know how to calculate it, if none of the GMs who did that for YEARS dont know how?

Because it's basic maths.
And I don't think the GMs have been doing this for YEARS : as far as I know, they haven't been dealing with extra refunded gold every week for years, have they... ?

I love how GMs think their "experience" makes them wise in everything (and everyone else dumb for that matter) when they, themselves, claim they don't think of writing basic things down and they can't calculate a simple account balance. They don't have to know everything but they can listen to people who know. Whether they're GMs or not.

And if you think my answers are condescending, maybe have a look at yours first : "we're GMs we know, you don't". How does THAT sound... ?

Thats the same as People go to the Doctors and claim to know about deseases because they read about it on the Internet.

DragonRacer

OsManiaC wrote: »

sorry for the one likes me that his/her money gone and not enough money to bid on sunday

And the above is really a bit of an unsung tragedy here, lost amidst all the in-fighting and punish/don't punish arguments. There are guilds who do not have large war chests, who get by week to week, that are currently 100% screwed for this weekend because the game thinks they won their trader and, therefore, kept the money it took away... but they didn't *actually* have the trader for the week because someone 10k took it in the confusion... and now they are out sales tax AND what should have been refunded to use for this weekend's bid.

While the over-refunded guilds ought to have their overages taken back, I'd rather see ZOS much more quickly, in order of importance:

1. Fix whatever broke so this does not happen again this Sunday.
2. Refund the guilds who had no trader this week and, by right, SHOULD have been refunded those "lost" bids because, in reality, they were lost in this chaos.
3. Take back overages/sort out punishment/not punishment, whatever

*My opinion as a consoler, living in absolute fear of what September 1st will bring us... and knowing if it's horror, there is no quick and easy fix for us because of Sony/Microsoft certification processes for patches and the time they take...

anitajoneb17_ESO

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

Hi Cani - Anita is a troll of course so not to be reasoned with and honestly best ignored.

That said if you disable every addon that uses guild history e.g. Shissu guild tools and master merchant. log off completely and log back in again from the login box, your entire 10-day donation and sales history will be available albeit may need to manually go backwards. Then reenable the addons whilst this data is still cached on your character and perhaps do an mm missing and voila. data.

Ireniicus, you have every right to ignore me, that's fine, but I cannot let you say I'm trolling, because I'm not.

I just confirmed what you confirmed yourself : bank history is available. While all those so-called soooo experienced GMs pretend it's not, or genuinely don't know it. How is that trolling ?

JN_Slevin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

Hi Cani - Anita is a troll of course so not to be reasoned with and honestly best ignored.

That said if you disable every addon that uses guild history e.g. Shissu guild tools and master merchant. log off completely and log back in again from the login box, your entire 10-day donation and sales history will be available albeit may need to manually go backwards. Then reenable the addons whilst this data is still cached on your character and perhaps do an mm missing and voila. data.

Ireniicus, you have every right to ignore me, that's fine, but I cannot let you say I'm trolling, because I'm not.

I just confirmed what you confirmed yourself : bank history is available. While all those so-called soooo experienced GMs pretend it's not, or genuinely don't know it. How is that trolling ?

Well, I can only say what i experience and for the Moment it doesnt work for me. I try to make it work and report back to you. Thank you for your ongoing Patience.

Stay tuned

Edit: I made it work, im sorry that i spread wrong Infomation!

Arrodisia

StabbityDoom wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Hi. I'll quickly answer that, when you run multiple guilds with 10x's each. No. It isn't simple. We can forget. We are human like everyone else. We have jobs and families outside of the game as well. Also, the history isn't active. We can't even look it up. Many things aren't working properly, and we have no idea which spots we legitimately one. It just says we won, and yet the spots were still empty. Not to mention, most of us don't keep our gold in the bank. It's too easy to make a costly mistake with both bidding and hiring with this fiddly system. I hope. That helps to clear it up a wee bit.

No, it doesn't clear it up at all. It IS simple. It doesn't take time. It doesn't take any accounting or maths skills, just simple logic. And you don't need to know which one you legitimately won since you have none. Or if you have one, then you know which one you won.
And don't tell me you don't remember how much you bid. That's something you think of all week.
And don't tell me you run multiple guilds : you don't, you can't. You can only be the GM of ONE guild in ESO. So even if you make decisions for several guilds, there are people around you who know how much you bid, and it is most likely written down somewhere.

No, really, I'm not buying the "I don't know how much is mine and how much I'm supposed to give back to ZOS". Really. No.

It all comes down to :

+ (PLUS)how much I've bid (all together)
- (MINUS) The one amount of the one bid I actually won and have the trader for (that could be zero if you have no trader at all)
- (MINUS) 10K for hiring a trader manually (if you have, else it's zero too)
- (MINUS) how much I've got reimbursed (all together)

Sum all this up : if your grand total is in a plus, ZOS owes you this amount, if your grand total is negative, you owe that money to ZOS.

Easy.

It just shows more and more that you don't know how the trade system works, or how GMs run trade guilds properly. No we don't all remember how much we bid in every guild we have, because each bid was different. We can only approximate which isn't the same as knowing the exact amount. We got multiple winning messages for each guild. Any of them at any amount could've won. You don't know me or which guilds I run. All you have here are faulty assumptions as always, which is why no one takes you seriously anymore. Learn about the trade system then come back, and tell us something, because right now you have nothing. You're just flinging around insults to those who try to be patient with your ignorance. We all see that you play the forums all day instead of the game.

Cheers

You diminished your argument with personal attacks. EDIT: I saw the dumpster fire that erupted after this post, so I'm getting the heck away from it.

It was a dumpster fire when that person attacked GMs long before this post. That, unfortunately, wasn't a personal attack. It was a recount of facts, which pretty much all are aware of here in the forums. Have a nice day.

JN_Slevin

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

how in the World would you know how much you actually gained ONLY from the Bidding bug?

Of course you need the bank history. But you have it (Ireniicus confirmed it).
Now WITH the bank history, it's not hard to know which is which. Member donations appear under the name of the donor, bid refunds appear differently, clearly defined as such. Sales taxes also appear clearly defined as such. It's not hard at all to sort out.

I understand the confusion and the hassle, but I explained in this thread (in the naive intention to help) how to calculate things easily. Especially that you don't need to know precisely what trader you won (in theory), what bids you gor refunded or how many times. Just sum it up and there you go. You know how much gold you must leave there untouched in order for ZOS to be able to delete it.

Well your first Paragraph is just wrong.
You have the History WHILE YOUR ONLINE.
Nothing more, and as soon as you log of its gone. (checking it at the Moment) Yep, doenst work for me, still no History!

Your second Paragraph doesnt make sense.
How would you know how to calculate it, if none of the GMs who did that for YEARS dont know how?

I'm sorry but i do not Trust someone with that who i only know from some Forum Posts...
Heck, i dont even trust myself with it.

I am sure your Posts are well intended, but you show nothing but disrespect, act like a know-it-all and all that under the protection of anonymity, while you deduct only Quotes from previous Posts who you are willing to answer, therefore trying to get other People to misinterpret the original meaning of said Posts.

Please, just read the things people said who actually have experience in it...

Hi Cani - Anita is a troll of course so not to be reasoned with and honestly best ignored.

That said if you disable every addon that uses guild history e.g. Shissu guild tools and master merchant. log off completely and log back in again from the login box, your entire 10-day donation and sales history will be available albeit may need to manually go backwards. Then reenable the addons whilst this data is still cached on your character and perhaps do an mm missing and voila. data.

Thank you for that! I did not know that.

chess1ukb16_ESO

[/quote]

Thank you for that! I did not know that.[/quote]

Glad I could help buddy.

Tandor

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Personally, as a non-trader I'm finding the discussion generally very informative. I also find it very relevant notwithstanding my lack of involvement in trading because of the view that the whole megaserver should be rolled back, for a couple of weeks even, and that involves everyone be they traders or not.

You've admitted you that you are not a Trader (neither am I) and don't use the Trade Kiosks as a Customer (I do).

As such you are 100% insulated from the price inflation the duped Billions of gold have created.

I would guess that Players who never use the Trade System at all are a very, very, very, small minority. Somewhere south of 3% I would guess.

That means somewhere north of 90% of players have been affected by this, the vast majority of them (given how small a % of players can access the Trade System as a Seller - something I know you feel strongly about) negatively.

A rollback is the ONLY sensible solution.

That leaving it longer and longer until it happens means more people lose more "progress" is NOT a reason not to do it.

The deciding factor on whether or not it should be done is "Is there another solution that reverses the total impact of all that duped gold".

And the answer to that is no there isn't because ZoS don't know how to build, maintain or pull data from databases.
If they did this fuster-cluck would never have happened in the first place.

If ZOS are able to recover the excess gold dumped into the game then any effect of this situation on prices will be very short-term - and for every player who claims prices have rocketed there's another player saying that they have not. Moreover, if those players who do think prices are unreasonably high decline to buy at that level then they'll soon go down again anyway.
Also, I doubt very much that 90% of the players are buying the sort of stuff we're talking about anyway.

Either way, not only is it unreasonable to roll back an entire megaserver for one week (as you're saying should have been done originally), let alone two (as you're now arguing for), it is also now totally impractical and simply won't happen. Players would leave en masse, there would be demands for subscription reimbursements and much more besides. I actually have quite a lot of confidence in ZOS but I'm surprised that someone who believes that they "don't know how to build, maintain or pull data from databases" should be lobbying for them to undertake such an extensive operation!

Hopefully in the short term ZOS will be able to provide a fix for the immediate issue, and in the long term will not only be able to secure the necessary performance improvements that will help with these sorts of server load issues as well as more generally, but will also be able to separate the bidding process so as to enable that to be rolled back independently of the server as a whole - or provide a better form of trading system that won't suffer from this sort of problem.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cani wrote: »

Thats the same as People go to the Doctors and claim to know about deseases because they read about it on the Internet.

LoL... there would be A LOT to say about that analogy. Too bad I can't tell in details how much I've fought with doctors (about important matters regarding my personal health) and ended up being 100% correct, and they were wrong.

In my opinion, anyone who thinks knows better simply because of his position, and is not open to the suggestions of others is a public danger.

But back to topic, the fact is :
- Guild bank history is available
- With that data, you CAN EASILY track down how much extra money you've got and must keep in order force ZOS to clean up the mess
- If you don't write down your weekly bids, then you should.

Now if you think those facts are "only available to GMs"... and noone else should mention them... then... so be it :-)

JN_Slevin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

Thats the same as People go to the Doctors and claim to know about deseases because they read about it on the Internet.

LoL... there would be A LOT to say about that analogy. Too bad I can't tell in details how much I've fought with doctors (about important matters regarding my personal health) and ended up being 100% correct, and they were wrong.

In my opinion, anyone who thinks knows better simply because of his position, and is not open to the suggestions of others is a public danger.

But back to topic, the fact is :
- Guild bank history is available
- With that data, you CAN EASILY track down how much extra money you've got and must keep in order force ZOS to clean up the mess
- If you don't write down your weekly bids, then you should.

Now if you think those facts are "only available to GMs"... and noone else should mention them... then... so be it :-)

Alright, yes i've made a mistake i did not know about the History.

I still have to tell you that it really is not that easy.. Since my Guilds already sold more than 200.000 Items this Week, sure its easy to go through that and write down everything else.

And People generally think they know stuff because they did that Stuff for some time...

There are other analogies, maybe you were right this time at your doctors, but in the end there is a reason why People study things...

The longer you spent time on a Topic or Profession the more Experience you get (Experience Definition: knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered, or undergone something...)

You make it seem like a simple Read up on your Smartphone is enough to know everything...

I for one am more scared of People who think they know more than the one who actually Spent time doing those things.
(And no i do not compare GMs of a Online Game to Doctors)

StabbityDoom

Cani wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

Thats the same as People go to the Doctors and claim to know about deseases because they read about it on the Internet.

LoL... there would be A LOT to say about that analogy. Too bad I can't tell in details how much I've fought with doctors (about important matters regarding my personal health) and ended up being 100% correct, and they were wrong.

In my opinion, anyone who thinks knows better simply because of his position, and is not open to the suggestions of others is a public danger.

But back to topic, the fact is :
- Guild bank history is available
- With that data, you CAN EASILY track down how much extra money you've got and must keep in order force ZOS to clean up the mess
- If you don't write down your weekly bids, then you should.

Now if you think those facts are "only available to GMs"... and noone else should mention them... then... so be it :-)

Alright, yes i've made a mistake i did not know about the History.

I still have to tell you that it really is not that easy.. Since my Guilds already sold more than 200.000 Items this Week, sure its easy to go through that and write down everything else.

And People generally think they know stuff because they did that Stuff for some time...

There are other analogies, maybe you were right this time at your doctors, but in the end there is a reason why People study things...

The longer you spent time on a Topic or Profession the more Experience you get (Experience Definition: knowledge or practical wisdom gained from what one has observed, encountered, or undergone something...)

You make it seem like a simple Read up on your Smartphone is enough to know everything...

I for one am more scared of People who think they know more than the one who actually Spent time doing those things.
(And no i do not compare GMs of a Online Game to Doctors)

You don't need to defend or explain yourself. You're fine. We all learn sometime, and I'm still learning things about the game. Let the haters hate and keep on keeping on.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cani wrote: »

I still have to tell you that it really is not that easy.. Since my Guilds already sold more than 200.000 Items this Week, sure its easy to go through that and write down everything else.

You don't need to go through all this.
All refunds happened around trader flip last sunday : that's all you need to look at.
And you also need to look around the time you placed your bids (but I think you said you wrote them down so you're fine).

It's not "as easy as looking it up on a smartphone". I mean, IT IS EASY. Simply easy.
Now if you don't trust me (you don't have to) you're free to do so but it's your own will to make things more complicated than they actually are, and that's a fact, not an opinion.

JN_Slevin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

I still have to tell you that it really is not that easy.. Since my Guilds already sold more than 200.000 Items this Week, sure its easy to go through that and write down everything else.

You don't need to go through all this.
All refunds happened around trader flip last sunday : that's all you need to look at.
And you also need to look around the time you placed your bids (but I think you said you wrote them down so you're fine).

It's not "as easy as looking it up on a smartphone". I mean, IT IS EASY. Simply easy.
Now if you don't trust me (you don't have to) you're free to do so but it's your own will to make things more complicated than they actually are, and that's a fact, not an opinion.

Not gonna answer you anymore.

I hope you have a nice life. Take care!

Nicky33

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_GinaBruno
I have lost my patience - no need to thank for it in your next post. WE NEED ANSWERS AND ACTIONS!
Please.
Thank you.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Tandor wrote: »

Either way, not only is it unreasonable to roll back an entire megaserver for one week (as you're saying should have been done originally), let alone two (as you're now arguing for)

I am not arguing for a two-week rollback - nowhere have I even suggested such a thing.

I am arguing for, what is currently, a 4 day rollback.


Let me spell it out for you so we are both talking about the same thing.

• 1) Roll back to just before the Trader Flip on Sunday 18th: this is where the issue started.
• 2) Prevent re-occurrence of problem (as they did on PC/NA) until a resolution has been developed and THOROUGHLY tested.
• 3) Patch in the Resolution.
• 4) Re-enable Trader Flips.

There's no "two week rollback" there at all. Currently there's not even a one-week rollback.


All The Best

VaranisArano

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Either way, not only is it unreasonable to roll back an entire megaserver for one week (as you're saying should have been done originally), let alone two (as you're now arguing for)

I am not arguing for a two-week rollback - nowhere have I even suggested such a thing.

I am arguing for, what is currently, a 4 day rollback.


Let me spell it out for you so we are both talking about the same thing.

• 1) Roll back to just before the Trader Flip on Sunday 18th: this is where the issue started.
• 2) Prevent re-occurrence of problem (as they did on PC/NA) until a resolution has been developed and THOROUGHLY tested.
• 3) Patch in the Resolution.
• 4) Re-enable Trader Flips.

There's no "two week rollback" there at all. Currently there's not even a one-week rollback.


All The Best

A four hour rollback is bad enough. A four day rollback?

That's an incredible amount of progress lost. Including, for that matter, the last couple hours of the Orsinium event.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Either way, not only is it unreasonable to roll back an entire megaserver for one week (as you're saying should have been done originally), let alone two (as you're now arguing for)

I am not arguing for a two-week rollback - nowhere have I even suggested such a thing.

I am arguing for, what is currently, a 4 day rollback.


Let me spell it out for you so we are both talking about the same thing.

• 1) Roll back to just before the Trader Flip on Sunday 18th: this is where the issue started.
• 2) Prevent re-occurrence of problem (as they did on PC/NA) until a resolution has been developed and THOROUGHLY tested.
• 3) Patch in the Resolution.
• 4) Re-enable Trader Flips.

There's no "two week rollback" there at all. Currently there's not even a one-week rollback.


All The Best

A four hour rollback is bad enough. A four day rollback?

That's an incredible amount of progress lost. Including, for that matter, the last couple hours of the Orsinium event.

You think I don't understand that?

I do, I get it.

How else does ZoS remove ALL the Duped Gold and ALL the Market Impact of that Duped Gold?

Give me a credible answer and I'll listen.

But the argument that "doing the right thing should not happen if it inconveniences people" simply does not wash with me, ever.


All The Best

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

How else does ZoS remove ALL the Duped Gold and ALL the Market Impact of that Duped Gold?
Give me a credible answer and I'll listen.

ZOS must :
- calculate all the bids
- see all the real won / fake won bids
- Calculate the reimbursed amounts
- calculate how much extra gold each guild has received
- delete that gold.

Problem solved.
In case the money isn't available anymore on the guild bank, then they should take it from the GM's account, possibly allowing a negative balance. (If they keep the negative balance on a guild bank, ppl would just have to disband the guild and create a new one, which would not be efficient).

I think that's the plan... in my opinion it requires someone doing it manually (or closely supervising the scripts run for doing it). I hope ZOS will make that effort.

StabbityDoom

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Either way, not only is it unreasonable to roll back an entire megaserver for one week (as you're saying should have been done originally), let alone two (as you're now arguing for)

I am not arguing for a two-week rollback - nowhere have I even suggested such a thing.

I am arguing for, what is currently, a 4 day rollback.


Let me spell it out for you so we are both talking about the same thing.

• 1) Roll back to just before the Trader Flip on Sunday 18th: this is where the issue started.
• 2) Prevent re-occurrence of problem (as they did on PC/NA) until a resolution has been developed and THOROUGHLY tested.
• 3) Patch in the Resolution.
• 4) Re-enable Trader Flips.

There's no "two week rollback" there at all. Currently there's not even a one-week rollback.


All The Best

A four hour rollback is bad enough. A four day rollback?

That's an incredible amount of progress lost. Including, for that matter, the last couple hours of the Orsinium event.

You think I don't understand that?

I do, I get it.

How else does ZoS remove ALL the Duped Gold and ALL the Market Impact of that Duped Gold?

Give me a credible answer and I'll listen.

But the argument that "doing the right thing should not happen if it inconveniences people" simply does not wash with me, ever.


All The Best

There are less harmful ways to remove the money that is still extant, as for the market - the market will readjust, because it always does. Look at the anniversary motif event, it kills everything motif for months. The market gets back to normal.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

How else does ZoS remove ALL the Duped Gold and ALL the Market Impact of that Duped Gold?
Give me a credible answer and I'll listen.

ZOS must :
- calculate all the bids
- see all the real won / fake won bids
- Calculate the reimbursed amounts
- calculate how much extra gold each guild has received
- delete that gold.

Problem solved.

A "credible" solution not only has to theoretically achieve the desired goal, it has to be likely to be deliverable.

Given pretty much all UI / Add-On and Server Overload issues are because ZoS can't design, manage or maintain databases properly what chance do you think there is of that ever happening?

Especially if any of the duped gold has been moved to non-guild accounts?

A "rollback" to an existing data-set is several orders of magnitude easier than your proposal.

PS: Yes I have some database experience, helping design, implement, stress test and create documentation for a massive database used by government.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

[
I think that's the plan... in my opinion it requires someone doing it manually (or closely supervising the scripts run for doing it). I hope ZOS will make that effort.

You think ZoS is going to pay someone to do all this manually?



All The Best

Tandor

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Either way, not only is it unreasonable to roll back an entire megaserver for one week (as you're saying should have been done originally), let alone two (as you're now arguing for)

I am not arguing for a two-week rollback - nowhere have I even suggested such a thing.

I am arguing for, what is currently, a 4 day rollback.


Let me spell it out for you so we are both talking about the same thing.

• 1) Roll back to just before the Trader Flip on Sunday 18th: this is where the issue started.
• 2) Prevent re-occurrence of problem (as they did on PC/NA) until a resolution has been developed and THOROUGHLY tested.
• 3) Patch in the Resolution.
• 4) Re-enable Trader Flips.

There's no "two week rollback" there at all. Currently there's not even a one-week rollback.


All The Best

When I mentioned a 4 day rollback, you said no, a rollback to before the patch that introduced the change. That was the Update 23 patch the previous Monday, 9th August. I wish you'd make your mind up, not that it matters given that there won't be a rollback anyway !

VaranisArano

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Either way, not only is it unreasonable to roll back an entire megaserver for one week (as you're saying should have been done originally), let alone two (as you're now arguing for)

I am not arguing for a two-week rollback - nowhere have I even suggested such a thing.

I am arguing for, what is currently, a 4 day rollback.


Let me spell it out for you so we are both talking about the same thing.

• 1) Roll back to just before the Trader Flip on Sunday 18th: this is where the issue started.
• 2) Prevent re-occurrence of problem (as they did on PC/NA) until a resolution has been developed and THOROUGHLY tested.
• 3) Patch in the Resolution.
• 4) Re-enable Trader Flips.

There's no "two week rollback" there at all. Currently there's not even a one-week rollback.


All The Best

A four hour rollback is bad enough. A four day rollback?

That's an incredible amount of progress lost. Including, for that matter, the last couple hours of the Orsinium event.

You think I don't understand that?

I do, I get it.

How else does ZoS remove ALL the Duped Gold and ALL the Market Impact of that Duped Gold?

Give me a credible answer and I'll listen.

But the argument that "doing the right thing should not happen if it inconveniences people" simply does not wash with me, ever.


All The Best

They can't. They'll delete what they can.

Where I disagree is that there's no longer any "doing the right thing". Not 4 days later.

Letting the gold they can't delete go and impact of inflation slowly level itself out is the wrong thing to do.

Rolling back all progress on the server for 4 days is also the wrong thing to do.

There is no "right" thing to do. Both are wrong.

And I'd argue that one of those is less wrong than the other. Specifically, ZOS can mitigate the impact of the extra gold by deleting what they can and dealing with the inflation. ZOS can't mitigate the removal of 4 days worth of progress from the entire server. That impacts every player who logged on in all aspects of the game, including PVP campaign scores, leaderboards, the Orsinium Festival, daily quests and writs, and so on. Redoing 4 days of progress is much worse than an inconvenience.

A four day rollback is the most harmful choice ZOS could choose, doing immediate and obvious harm to the most amount of players.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

StabbityDoom wrote: »

There are less harmful ways to remove the money that is still extant, as for the market - the market will readjust, because it always does. Look at the anniversary motif event, it kills everything motif for months. The market gets back to normal.

The market may adjust.

But until it does those that exploited the bug are still making bank on short-term massively inflated prices.

So that does not achieve the goal of removing ALL the Market Impact of the duped gold.


All The Best

Dont_do_drugs

I'm sorry, I am a bit late, so sry for rolling this up again. I do not disagree on some points Anita had. Actually some comments of some gm that I know more or less close raised also some question marks for me.

# I do agree: we do track the income of our guilds, average donations, sales, average tax and have a clue about the usual income of our guilds. We also know the approximate banked amount. I have to admit I am more of a bookkeeper than many others, so I felt pretty much mirrored by the expectations Anita expressed. I did gm 3 guilds, I always knew the approx banked gold, I made sheets and tables about income, since I also have been capping the gold of the bank (whoever accidently typed in one number too much when bidding and pressed or nearly pressed e after that knows why) at under 10x usual bid, still i always was aware of what my guild owns from the gold in my personal bank, what my other guild owns of it, and what part of it is my own gold. but even if u do it not that accurate - come on, we gm tend to be little greedy monsters. this is nothing bad in our business, its instinct. gold is the key to securing our guilds and communities, so we keep track and keep sure, were not on a loss run. also i am aware a lot of you made backup-plan, backup-chains and also a lot of u have been screenshotting their multi-bids since i guess....noone expeted the first sunday to run smooth...

# I do agree: you do not necessarily need to know the exact amount. but u also do not need to exaggerate over it. I doubt anyone, whose balance doesnt look fishy, even if its a bit off by 5% as example bcs of insecurities due to lacking information this week is in danger or risk getting banned. I especially do not understand this insecurity coming from two of the filthy richest gm in this gm. i doubt if there is a slight off balance in your bank, you can put in like 25m or 50m into the bank from ur personal account and remove it again, as soon as zos cleared it up. This mess is so extreme, i doubt they will run a script. if they did, they would have been doing it already, since its pretty fast then. I am pretty sure, they are sorting out the balances manually (hopefully) - and doing it manually means chances are high, that there is someone able to figure out whats fishy and way too much off and whats unsuspicious. i mean, not putting additional gold into your bank wont make u banned in case of an off balance i guess, but it might reduce additional communication and questions. just an idea. some of u maybe were that stupid to take the gold from the bank but didnt do anything with it, just put it back into. ezpz.

# I disagree: u definitely can run multiple guilds as one person. there are even accounts owning 2 guilds (if zos changes it that way its possible), u can also just use ur alt acc as gm account and make ur main vize-gm, so yes one person can have multiple guilds.


In general: pls wear your innocence with some pride instead of getting urself trapped into insecurities and questions about bank balances. in 4 years of trade guild gming i saw a lot of fishy and exploitive methods. its frustrating as hell, having to compete with people which have irregular gold supply or use other methods of unfair competition, its also frustrating as hell having to deal with a developer like zos not willing enough to support also fair activities in the smaller aspects of the game with smaller communities.

this might be your chance - as example:
# to get rid of an competetor or opponent u might be aware of that he already exploited in the past
# to get rid of an annoying jumper guild who is known for buying gold
# to get rid of gm misusing the guilds gold in general by selling the earned taxes and donations

or anything like that.
u didnt do anything suspicious, then stop worrying. even if a script bans u accidently, it usually gets lifted soon when manually digging into the matter and proving the ban was wrong.