Animation cancelling is killing PVP, especially for Oceanics

Manami

Wollust wrote: »

If you need a macro to animation cancel: you're bad and should get banned.
If you can't animationcancel, l2p (if you have a bad connection, I feel sorry for you but bad luck).

Animation canceling is totally fine and makes the combat feel more smooth and more skillbased instead of some clunky random keypressing.

Edit: oh wow necroing an old thread and I fell for it

I did too. XD

Also, no it makes the combat look ***. I've watched Alex do it and he looks like he's just switching between weaponds rapidly with very twitchy animations.

You know what that means? It's unintentional and a exploit.

Wollust

Manami wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

If you need a macro to animation cancel: you're bad and should get banned.
If you can't animationcancel, l2p (if you have a bad connection, I feel sorry for you but bad luck).

Animation canceling is totally fine and makes the combat feel more smooth and more skillbased instead of some clunky random keypressing.

Edit: oh wow necroing an old thread and I fell for it

I did too. XD

Also, no it makes the combat look ***. I've watched Alex do it and he looks like he's just switching between weaponds rapidly with very twitchy animations.

You know what that means? It's unintentional and a exploit.

Normal animation canceling is on LA or HA, skill, LA or HA. Nothing wrong with that imo.
The canceling with multiple weapon swap though is mostly being used with a macro, which then should be banned. I want to see the person who can use weapon swap canceling effectively in pvp without a macro. One time swap cancel, sure no problem. Multiple times? I have my doubts.

Alexandrious

Wollust wrote: »

Manami wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

If you need a macro to animation cancel: you're bad and should get banned.
If you can't animationcancel, l2p (if you have a bad connection, I feel sorry for you but bad luck).

Animation canceling is totally fine and makes the combat feel more smooth and more skillbased instead of some clunky random keypressing.

Edit: oh wow necroing an old thread and I fell for it

I did too. XD

Also, no it makes the combat look ***. I've watched Alex do it and he looks like he's just switching between weaponds rapidly with very twitchy animations.

You know what that means? It's unintentional and a exploit.

Normal animation canceling is on LA or HA, skill, LA or HA. Nothing wrong with that imo.
The canceling with multiple weapon swap though is mostly being used with a macro, which then should be banned. I want to see the person who can use weapon swap canceling effectively in pvp without a macro. One time swap cancel, sure no problem. Multiple times? I have my doubts.

Easily done, recommended without a macro? No, not recommended, the kinda rapid movement involved can actually over time, cause injury to your hand, depending on how you set your keys up.

Sadly Wollust, most of the very top PVPers, and youtube build makers and showoffs, use macros for they're cancelling, your saying they are bad? I wont give out the names of em, but I have spoken to a few of them and they admit to macroing the animation cancelling because it not only makes it alot easier to perform, but its alot less stressful on the hands as well. And sorry to say but most cancelers will use Macros if on PC, thats why alot of players went to Consoles due to the lack of Macros. Those players were smart to do so, they seen how Zenimax tried to cover up a lie, and knew animation cancelling is here to stay until too many players leave with animation cancelling being one of the major reasons for leaving.

Animation cancelling needs to be changed, or the very least reduced to where it would only give a slight advantage. Its an exploit, period, and the players who defend it, just wanna keep the edge they got over the 90 percent majority who cannot do it due to

A: Lacking the hand eye coordination for it.

B: Issue with hands such as injury, slight nerve damage, or other medical conditions preventing them from doing it.

C: Old age can also be a factor, I said can, I know some sixty plus year old dudes who still type at 100+ WPM.

D : Ping, which sadly in Cyrodil can raise upwards to 150+ screwing you on being able to Animation Cancel compared to those who can keep ping below 150.

E: Is unaware of animation cancelling since alot of players do not even read the forums, and if the console versions are still without a text chat system, this is made worse for those players. A tutorial needs to be added if Zenimax wants to continue to try and cover they're ass and lie that this was intentional.

F: Players who do find it as a cheesy exploit and refuse to do it, and their is alot of em.

This is a amateur mmo developer mistake, that they could have prevented with proper testing of the combat system and researching other mmos with action combat systems.

DaveMoeDee

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

The idea of animation cancelling just galls me on principal. I think I find it wierd because I expect the point of my weapon impact to be at the end of my swing and that's not how it works here.

I personally feel that there needs to be a rhythm to combat and animation cancelling takes that away in favor of cramming as many abilities as possible into as small a window as you can.

I dunno, it just feels like a broken mechanic and I wish the developers didn't intend for it to be this way. It's like you learn the system, then you have to learn to circumvent that system in order to be effective in PvP or high-end PvE.

Makes me sad.

Cancelling should be cancelling. It should cancel the attack. Silly otherwise.

It is likely just there to make implementation easier, not because of any planned design. I doubt this was their intent. It is probably just too risky to try to fix.

Wollust

Alexandrious wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Manami wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

If you need a macro to animation cancel: you're bad and should get banned.
If you can't animationcancel, l2p (if you have a bad connection, I feel sorry for you but bad luck).

Animation canceling is totally fine and makes the combat feel more smooth and more skillbased instead of some clunky random keypressing.

Edit: oh wow necroing an old thread and I fell for it

I did too. XD

Also, no it makes the combat look ***. I've watched Alex do it and he looks like he's just switching between weaponds rapidly with very twitchy animations.

You know what that means? It's unintentional and a exploit.

Normal animation canceling is on LA or HA, skill, LA or HA. Nothing wrong with that imo.
The canceling with multiple weapon swap though is mostly being used with a macro, which then should be banned. I want to see the person who can use weapon swap canceling effectively in pvp without a macro. One time swap cancel, sure no problem. Multiple times? I have my doubts.

Easily done, recommended without a macro? No, not recommended, the kinda rapid movement involved can actually over time, cause injury to your hand, depending on how you set your keys up.

Sadly Wollust, most of the very top PVPers, and youtube build makers and showoffs, use macros for they're cancelling, your saying they are bad? I wont give out the names of em, but I have spoken to a few of them and they admit to macroing the animation cancelling because it not only makes it alot easier to perform, but its alot less stressful on the hands as well. And sorry to say but most cancelers will use Macros if on PC, thats why alot of players went to Consoles due to the lack of Macros. Those players were smart to do so, they seen how Zenimax tried to cover up a lie, and knew animation cancelling is here to stay until too many players leave with animation cancelling being one of the major reasons for leaving.

Animation cancelling needs to be changed, or the very least reduced to where it would only give a slight advantage. Its an exploit, period, and the players who defend it, just wanna keep the edge they got over the 90 percent majority who cannot do it due to

A: Lacking the hand eye coordination for it.

B: Issue with hands such as injury, slight nerve damage, or other medical conditions preventing them from doing it.

C: Old age can also be a factor, I said can, I know some sixty plus year old dudes who still type at 100+ WPM.

D : Ping, which sadly in Cyrodil can raise upwards to 150+ screwing you on being able to Animation Cancel compared to those who can keep ping below 150.

E: Is unaware of animation cancelling since alot of players do not even read the forums, and if the console versions are still without a text chat system, this is made worse for those players. A tutorial needs to be added if Zenimax wants to continue to try and cover they're ass and lie that this was intentional.

F: Players who do find it as a cheesy exploit and refuse to do it, and their is alot of em.

This is a amateur mmo developer mistake, that they could have prevented with proper testing of the combat system and researching other mmos with action combat systems.

What rapid movement? Pressing a key on your keyboard followed up by a press on your mousebutton (in my case I have my skillkeys bound to my mouse, so doing mousesidebutton with the thumb and then with the index weaponattack) and then again a skill? How is that more likely to injure your hands as just spamming the keys over and over again?

Yes I say they are bad if they have to rely on macros to do the canceling, because it is a way of exploiting ingame mechanics to gain an advantage instead of learning the mechanics and getting them straight or because of laziness. But I do not consider animation canceling an exploit.
I for myself used to be a top PVE DPS before I changed to PVP. And there it is simple: You can not reach the numbers without the animation cancelling. When I started this game I went and informed myself on the end game and the mechanics instead of expecting to be able to compete just because I reach the end level. That is what most people lack. The patience and the will to improve. Instead they want everything for free, which is imo stupid and shouldn't be supported whatsoever.
I learned about animation canceling and started practicing. After 2 weeks I could do it fairly well, nowadays I can perfectly weave weaponattacks with closed eyes simply because of muscle memory. In fact, I can not play without it. Spamming a skillbutton on a single target just feels wrong, clunky and not good for me, I need to do the canceling because I always did. And this is the case for the majority of the people using animation canceling (which is by the way on the EU server more or less every decent player. If you duel often, you'll see what I mean.). And I do not believe in a mass exodus because of animation canceling. There is more severe stuff in this game leading to leaving the game as the weaving and animation cancel.
While I believe you that there are people doing macros for it, I do not believe the majority of the PC players doing so. Simply because it is easy if you practice it enough.

A: Hand-eye coordination is different from person to person, but can be trained for specific stuff (like the canceling). No one can perfectly weave the first time they do it. Practice is the answer therefore. Some need more, some need less.

B: If you have a medical condition preventing you from doing and learning it (which would have an impact anyway even if there wasn't AC, because PVP is about rapid movements and reactions), bad luck. I'm sorry but you can not always look out after everyone. It sounds harsh but it's like that. If we start regarding everyone's medical condition, where do we have to put the line? What is important and should be counted in and what not? Have fun sorting that out.

C: Games are for every age, I agree. But games like this are usually made for a younger audience (in this case I'd say from 16-30ish). This people are the majority. The game isn't exactly well fitted for slower reaction times as older people tend to have. If they'd try to please every minority and every person with a medical condition impacting their game experience, it would turn out rather bad for the majority of the players with normal health conditions and everything.

Yes, Cyrodiil is usually involved with a higher pings when the zergs collide. Sad, but true. And there you have as well other problems as only the weaving. Because then it is about spamming aoe which you usually do not cancel.
And if you have by default a higher ping (you're fine with 150 btw.), again bad luck. Sorry mate, it's an online game. You knew you need a stable connection to enjoy it fully. Not something all the players with good connection should be punished for.

E: Yes, those are the players I mean. Those that expect to be able to wreck everything once they hit the last level. Those that think skills aren't involved and want everything to be nerfed as soon as it doesn't fit them. It is easy to find out about animation canceling. For everyone. You either inform yourself and learn about the game (I don't get how that should be hard, took me a few minutes back then to find out everything I needed) or you don't but get rekt then instead.

F: This is the first time I have ever heard about people thinking of AC as an exploit and I do not believe that there is a lot of them around, as I think the majority of the players should be able to learn it if they really want to.

So, my post was made regarding the animation cancel with weapon attacks, otherwise called weaving. I know there is also block cancel, which is more or less the same as weaving. And there is canceling with swapping weapons, which I do use as well when I activate some kind of a buff (for example molten armaments) on my offbar and then switch immediately to my main bar. I do know that this last mechanic can be exploited with macros doing multiple weaponswaps and skillactivations, but I do not think there is a lot of people actually doing. And if so, those should get permabanned instantly, but not because AC is bad, but rather because macroing is bad.

My opinion, don't kill me please.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Just wanna say block casting is also ruining the game. Maybe there wouldn't be so many nerfs and QQ if players starting taking full damage instead of 50% from perma blocking.

Master_Kas

AssaultLemming wrote: »

Yep there's some ganker *** with a bow who consistently lands a heavy attack, a venom arrow and a snipe all at the exact same time, no chance to react. It's not fun when you can't even see the attack coming and you just die.

What animation canceling does someone have to do to land that combo? He claims he isn't using a macro. Can someone explain it to me please?

Before snipe hits you (thanks to the travel time of the projectile) the bow user can do a semi charged heavy attack (not fully charged obviously) and fire that + venom arrow / poison injection. Most of the time they land very fast, making it seem as 3 hits at once. If the weaponglyph procs from the semi charged heavy attack that shows as 4 attacks on the recap, if they have camo hunter (used before they shoot) and it procs that's 5 attacks in "1 second". No need to macro for this. :P

DeanTheCat

Master_Kas wrote: »

AssaultLemming wrote: »

Yep there's some ganker *** with a bow who consistently lands a heavy attack, a venom arrow and a snipe all at the exact same time, no chance to react. It's not fun when you can't even see the attack coming and you just die.

What animation canceling does someone have to do to land that combo? He claims he isn't using a macro. Can someone explain it to me please?

Before snipe hits you (thanks to the travel time of the projectile) the bow user can do a semi charged heavy attack (not fully charged obviously) and fire that + venom arrow / poison injection. Most of the time they land very fast, making it seem as 3 hits at once. If the weaponglyph procs from the semi charged heavy attack that shows as 4 attacks on the recap, if they have camo hunter (used before they shoot) and it procs that's 5 attacks in "1 second". No need to macro for this. :P

Correction @Master_Kas: It's 7 attacks in "1 second". Camo Hunter can proc 3 times if all hits land at exactly the same time. There is a 0.5 second window after the 1st sneak attack hits that has all attacks still considered as sneak attacks. Therefore, a triple camo proc is very possible.

The death recap:
Befouled Weapon
Snipe
Camo Hunter
Heavy Attack
Camo Hunter
Poison Injection
Camo Hunter

Galalin

Lufian_Cweald wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

An action of a lower priority can be animation canceled by an action of a higher priority, though they must still respect the GCD (Global Cooldown) between each attack cycle. That means in a single GCD attack cycle, I can get off 1 light attack, 1 Ability, 1 Ultimate and 1 Bash. This is in addition to the fact that for some skills (Gap closers mainly), the GCD of the skill triggers as soon as you press the button, rather when the skill actually connects.

For example, I can cast Ambush from 27m away (Thanks to Reach II passive), and while the 1 second long Teleportation animation is playing, I press Surprise Attack. As the GCD of Ambush begins as soon as I press the button (It still has a 0.5 second cast time, no matter what the tooltip likes to state) and the GCD of all skills is 1.3 seconds, both abilities go off seemingly at the same time.

Hi Dean,

Trikki may get annoyed I am hijacking his thread (it's for the betterment of the guild I swear Trikki)

I was testing what you stated above Dean and I have to assume I am doing something wrong. I tried on NPCs over and over to Ambush and while traveling to hit Surprise Attack and it did not work once.

Having said that I have been on the recieving end of DKs Using Leap and me suddenly dead and dead recap saying they had Leaped, Heavy attack, and <insert skill> to do large damage to me. Can you elaborate more on how things work for you. Maybe you can help some of us Oceanic people out here.

Bahaha... this is my move.... i have killed more ppl with this rotation than any other... i can explain it completely... hold heavy attack then hit WB.... continuing to hold heavy attack, just before the WB lands the heavy attack lands then the WB land a spilt second later grating you empower. The second your WB lands use leap as the opponent can not block because of knockback. With the 20% increased damage from WB empower buff the leap hits like a truck. If need follow by using execute/block cancel to finish the job... not always needed

DK SCRUB OUT

imredneckson

I cant really get into a good sized fight without 1 FPS and 999+ ping but when I die it goes back to normal at 20 FPS and 200 ping. not fun

TheBull

smh

Master_Kas

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

AssaultLemming wrote: »

Yep there's some ganker *** with a bow who consistently lands a heavy attack, a venom arrow and a snipe all at the exact same time, no chance to react. It's not fun when you can't even see the attack coming and you just die.

What animation canceling does someone have to do to land that combo? He claims he isn't using a macro. Can someone explain it to me please?

Before snipe hits you (thanks to the travel time of the projectile) the bow user can do a semi charged heavy attack (not fully charged obviously) and fire that + venom arrow / poison injection. Most of the time they land very fast, making it seem as 3 hits at once. If the weaponglyph procs from the semi charged heavy attack that shows as 4 attacks on the recap, if they have camo hunter (used before they shoot) and it procs that's 5 attacks in "1 second". No need to macro for this. :P

Correction @Master_Kas: It's 7 attacks in "1 second". Camo Hunter can proc 3 times if all hits land at exactly the same time. There is a 0.5 second window after the 1st sneak attack hits that has all attacks still considered as sneak attacks. Therefore, a triple camo proc is very possible.

The death recap:
Befouled Weapon
Snipe
Camo Hunter
Heavy Attack
Camo Hunter
Poison Injection
Camo Hunter

Okay fair enough, but only 5 show in recap. Which is all those people see when they are getting "instagibbed" and thinking how the hell ? Macrozzz! Good morning btw

BalticBlues

Not only heavy ping users suffer from the animation cancel exploit.
Also new users suffer, because they simply do not know about it.

This exploit creates an artificial gap between high ping/new users and low ping/veterans.

ZOS, please build either a tutorial into the game,
so that ALL players learn about the animation cancel exploit,
or fix and remove this exploit please,
because all players should have the same success chances.

Galalin

BalticBlues wrote: »

Not only heavy ping users suffer from the animation cancel exploit.
Also new users suffer, because they simply do not know about it.

This exploit creates an artificial gap between high ping/new users and low ping/veterans.

ZOS, please build either a tutorial into the game,
so that ALL players learn about the animation cancel exploit,
or fix and remove this exploit please,
because all players should have the same success chances.

Ok im sorry but this bothers the hell out of me.... can you please define exploit in your own words and then read up on the intended mechanics of the game and possibly rephrase this post. I get the debates about if it should exist or not but throwing that word around like this just makes my blood boil.... every second word is exploit im so sick of everything ppl dont understand its ... oh its an exploit... thats an exploit... he is exploiting... everything that happens that ppl don't seem to understand ends in screams of exploits... STOP USING THAT WORD IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS.

DK SCRUB OUT

capcody

i my self live in aussie and the ping blows. before they adjusted the time for wrecking blow and other skills, i could react, now u mose well just stand there.and same goes for fear u cant break till 1-2 secs later cause of ping. i could go on and on. but ill be a good kitty and lay down next to the fire.

BalticBlues

Galalin wrote: »

STOP USING THAT WORD IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS.

If your CAPS LOCK is defective, you should probably buy a new keyboard.

This is how Wikipedia defines an exploit:

"In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming)

ESO's game designers certainly did "not intend" the "game system" so that
high ping players are instagibbed because of the animation canceling exploit.

ToRelax

BalticBlues wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

STOP USING THAT WORD IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS.

If your CAPS LOCK is defective, you should probably buy a new keyboard.

This is how Wikipedia defines an exploit:

"In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming)

ESO's game designers certainly did "not intend" the "game system" so that
low ping players are instagibbed because of the animation cancelling exploit.

If you want to be precise... well, be more precise.
Animation Cancelling may not have been intended to work that way during development. But that does not mean it is not intended to be used now.

maxjapank

BalticBlues wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

STOP USING THAT WORD IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS.

ESO's game designers certainly did "not intend" the "game system" so that
low ping players are instagibbed because of the animation cancelling exploit.

They didn't intend it, but I don't think they knew how to fix it. So eventually as this topic was talked about again and again, they began to encourage it through Ultimate gaining by light attacks.

Galalin

BalticBlues wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

STOP USING THAT WORD IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS.

If your CAPS LOCK is defective, you should probably buy a new keyboard.

This is how Wikipedia defines an exploit:

"In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming)

ESO's game designers certainly did "not intend" the "game system" so that
low ping players are instagibbed because of the animation cancelling exploit.

Talk about reaching for the stars lmao.... this is seriously your argument? ZoS has stated animation canceling is intended... so whether it is effected by ping or not it is not an exploit... with your logic as someone stated about fear not breaking for 1-2 seconds due to ping i guess thats makes fear an exploit too?

Some ppls children...

DK SCRUB OUT

BalticBlues

Galalin wrote: »

with your logic as someone stated about fear not breaking for 1-2 seconds due to ping i guess thats makes fear an exploit too?

The game currently is exploited in so many ways, I honestly don't know
if this because the devs can't handle the exploits or the broken designs anymore.

At least there is some hope für the Oceanics:
In 2016 ESO will launch in Japan.
This means, there will be one megaserver for Asia.
I wonder if ZOS then will be able to offer a character transfer from US/EU to Asia.

FayaSDL

Or maybe one day, EU gets there own servers...
In Europe. you know^^

(Dreams on)

Jade1986

Snit wrote: »

If you remove animation cancelling, combat becomes clunky and unresponsive. Animations either break other animations, or you get the situation where you push buttons and nothing happens. People hate that.

Right, because in a game where you need to react to your enemies attacks, cancelling the animation that you are supposed to respond to is totally ok. #logic.

Next.

Jade1986

Snit wrote: »

Atirez wrote: »

Perhaps the issue here is:

1. Animation cancelling is not in any tutorial in the game.
2. You only notice it for the first time in vet PvP server after being able to tank a ton of hits on non-vet PvP.
3. The players using it are generally long paying well specced and geared v14s
4. The players on the receiving end are generally V1-V5

Aside from the fact a V1-5 perhaps has pretty much no chance 1v1 v any half decent v14 anyway makes for a very unpleasant experience.

Anyone in a competent PvE guild also learns proper weaving by the time they do their first vet dungeon. It's a core mechanic.

No, If it were a core mechanic it would be explained in the tutorial. It is not, therefore it is not intended and not a core mechanic.

Jade1986

Atirez wrote: »

Goes to tutorial; shows person winding up a heavy attack. Woop I can interupt (bashes). Goes to PvP - No wind up time, not cast delays, nothing. Dead.

Issues are:
Animation cancelling. Just remove it, it's unnecessary. It may be that a skilful player can be skilful animation cancelling, but there are other forms of skill that can be utilised. Such as - knowing when to use a high powered high cast time attack as opposed to just spamming them in the hope you kill something.

High damage low health. I have a VR7, VR1 and VR10 char and not one of them stands a hope in hell against any reasonably geared VR14. Firstly, I am not going to spend a crap ton of gold getting gold gear or running dungeons to get gear because the act of running the dungeon would mean I had outlevelled it and would need to do it again. My spell power with a blue staff, two torugs + spell damage on 3 peices of jewely is a paltry 1078 with 22k Mag on a VR7. I tickle people. In short, anything below VR14 for an average player in PvP is a pointless waste of time. Group up or die.

AOE spamming zerg balls, basically sit there watching your character walk on the spot for a while with full health. Knowing when the server eventually sends you information you just insta-die. Fun.

Too many skill points. My build is: Have all the passives for everything, have everything unlocked. Where is the choice here? Do I choose these more offensive passives or these defensive ones. Will more magika regen help or more crit. Remove a lot of them, make people think about what they want and dont want. Builds are about gear and unlocking high level passives to use your abundant skill points on - not making choices.

Champion System, this is still a vertical levelling system not a horizontal one. People level and are able to passively do more damage, mitigate more damage and generally be far better. This is not skill. And as time goes by, PvP will be harder and harder for people to get in to, if its not already. So no new players, PvP eventually stagnates - well like it has.

I dont mind being hit for a ton of damage IF that person has some flaw I can take advantage of. But that doesn't appear to be the case for me. And watching PvP on twitch of great players, they can take advantage of these small differences. But for me and countless others, no doubt, it is just infuriating and extremely demoralising.

The champion system points sticking to the players new characters doesn't help either. You have these cases of people with lvl 30s with tons of champion points already allocated, and then I end up meeting one of them and I might as well be blowing sparkles at them.

ToRelax

laced wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Atirez wrote: »

Perhaps the issue here is:

1. Animation cancelling is not in any tutorial in the game.
2. You only notice it for the first time in vet PvP server after being able to tank a ton of hits on non-vet PvP.
3. The players using it are generally long paying well specced and geared v14s
4. The players on the receiving end are generally V1-V5

Aside from the fact a V1-5 perhaps has pretty much no chance 1v1 v any half decent v14 anyway makes for a very unpleasant experience.

Anyone in a competent PvE guild also learns proper weaving by the time they do their first vet dungeon. It's a core mechanic.

No, If it were a core mechanic it would be explained in the tutorial. It is not, therefore it is not intended and not a core mechanic.

I still remember an ESO Live show in that they were answering on a simple question someone had asked on the forums:
Wether the Storm Atronach could trigger the Disintegration passive. They answered no, it could not. In fact, it could - and it dealt some utterly rediculous damage when it procced. So even when asked a pretty simply thing, when they have time to look it up, they are not able to give the right answer with any certainty. Those people are supposed to make a tutorial about animation cancelling now? I would welcome it, I just highly doubt they'd be able to.

xarguideb17_ESO

Animation cancelling should go. Stamblade talking here. This is just laziness from ZOS. Of course every attack should be visible.

Yiko

BalticBlues wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

STOP USING THAT WORD IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS.

If your CAPS LOCK is defective, you should probably buy a new keyboard.

This is how Wikipedia defines an exploit:

"In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming)

ESO's game designers certainly did "not intend" the "game system" so that
high ping players are instagibbed because of the animation canceling exploit.

What stupid and twisted rhetoric. Unfortunately it seems like most people in this thread have adopted this line of thinking.

Animation canceling is a ZOS-approved form of emergent gameplay. It is another means for a player to improve on an individual level. Animation canceling provides more responsive, fluid, and engaging combat. If one player has put in the work to develop his mechanical skill, why should he not have the advantage over the lazy or incompetent?

People are so fast to throw out excuses in an attempt to deflect blame or responsibility from themselves:

"My fingers/hand/wrist will hurt if I animation cancel, or if I have any previous injuries to the aforementioned areas, I will have difficulty executing animation canceling."
- Animation canceling isn't even that mechanically intensive. Light attack --> Executioner --> Bash --> Roll Dodge.. That's about as tough as it could get for one string of attacks, and even then, it's consistently easy to pull off with developed muscle memory.. I highly doubt people will accumulate lasting damage to their body due to animation canceling. To address the latter point, it would be asinine to show up to a marathon with a broken leg and demand that every other entrant be limited to the use of only 1 of their legs. What is this self-pity? If you can't keep up, tough luck.

"People who animation cancel are exploiters, cheaters, macroers, etc."
- ZOS has endorsed animation canceling.

"You can't respond to abilities if you don't see the animation."
- What exactly are you responding to in combat? If I LA (Light Attack), Surprise Attack, and Bash you quickly so that you can only see the beginning of the LA/Surprise Attack, is there an actual difference in how you'd react if I had only LA into a Surprise Attack? For almost every ability, the damage goes through before the animation completes. This is actually the basis for animation canceling. Are you going to react differently even though you can see 1/4 or 1/2 of a second more of the animation of my Surprise Attack even after the damage went through? It's not as if I can start my next attack right after the animation cancel anyways. Are you actually baffled by the incoming Ransack damage if you can't see the entire animation? You should know what ability a player will use or is using based on his class and build and how to appropriately react to it.

"Animation canceling gives unfair advantages to people who macro."
- This is a legitimate concern, though I'm not certain how prevalent macroing actually is in this game. None of the top PVPers I play with actually use macros. I don't think that it's as big of an issue as people make it seem. Most times I hear accusations of "macro!!!!" it's when someone deludes himself that his unfortunate demise was out of his control, as his opponent cheated. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Even IF there are players with no actual mastery of animation canceling who employ the use of macros, why is that stopping YOU from improving on an individual level?

Ezareth

Yiko wrote: »

"Animation canceling gives unfair advantages to people who macro."
- This is a legitimate concern, though I'm not certain how prevalent macroing actually is in this game. None of the top PVPers I play with actually use macros. I don't think that it's as big of an issue as people make it seem. Most times I hear accusations of "macro!!!!" it's when someone deludes himself that his unfortunate demise was out of his control, as his opponent cheated. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Even IF there are players with no actual mastery of animation canceling who employ the use of macros, why is that stopping YOU from improving on an individual level?

In my long history of PvP with and against the top players in the game I have *yet* to hear of a single player using a "Macro" in PvP. It's just a go-to excuse for people dying for (reasons). I animation cancel less than most players, usually block-cancelling abilities or Bash-cancelling weapon attacks on my NB. Beyond that I've never bothered to animation cancel anything and I have no issues being successful in PvP.

This whole thread needs to go back to the grave from which it was ressurected.

Jade1986

Yiko wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

STOP USING THAT WORD IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS.

If your CAPS LOCK is defective, you should probably buy a new keyboard.

This is how Wikipedia defines an exploit:

"In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming)

ESO's game designers certainly did "not intend" the "game system" so that
high ping players are instagibbed because of the animation canceling exploit.

What stupid and twisted rhetoric. Unfortunately it seems like most people in this thread have adopted this line of thinking.

Animation canceling is a ZOS-approved form of emergent gameplay. It is another means for a player to improve on an individual level. Animation canceling provides more responsive, fluid, and engaging combat. If one player has put in the work to develop his mechanical skill, why should he not have the advantage over the lazy or incompetent?

People are so fast to throw out excuses in an attempt to deflect blame or responsibility from themselves:

"My fingers/hand/wrist will hurt if I animation cancel, or if I have any previous injuries to the aforementioned areas, I will have difficulty executing animation canceling."
- Animation canceling isn't even that mechanically intensive. Light attack --> Executioner --> Bash --> Roll Dodge.. That's about as tough as it could get for one string of attacks, and even then, it's consistently easy to pull off with developed muscle memory.. I highly doubt people will accumulate lasting damage to their body due to animation canceling. To address the latter point, it would be asinine to show up to a marathon with a broken leg and demand that every other entrant be limited to the use of only 1 of their legs. What is this self-pity? If you can't keep up, tough luck.

"People who animation cancel are exploiters, cheaters, macroers, etc."
- ZOS has endorsed animation canceling.

"You can't respond to abilities if you don't see the animation."
- What exactly are you responding to in combat? If I LA (Light Attack), Surprise Attack, and Bash you quickly so that you can only see the beginning of the LA/Surprise Attack, is there an actual difference in how you'd react if I had only LA into a Surprise Attack? For almost every ability, the damage goes through before the animation completes. This is actually the basis for animation canceling. Are you going to react differently even though you can see 1/4 or 1/2 of a second more of the animation of my Surprise Attack even after the damage went through? It's not as if I can start my next attack right after the animation cancel anyways. Are you actually baffled by the incoming Ransack damage if you can't see the entire animation? You should know what ability a player will use or is using based on his class and build and how to appropriately react to it.

"Animation canceling gives unfair advantages to people who macro."
- This is a legitimate concern, though I'm not certain how prevalent macroing actually is in this game. None of the top PVPers I play with actually use macros. I don't think that it's as big of an issue as people make it seem. Most times I hear accusations of "macro!!!!" it's when someone deludes himself that his unfortunate demise was out of his control, as his opponent cheated. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Even IF there are players with no actual mastery of animation canceling who employ the use of macros, why is that stopping YOU from improving on an individual level?

Link to them actually endorsing it?

This game is supposed to be reactive when it comes to pvp, you cannot react to someones attacks when they do 3 attacks at once.

I can only hope that one day they remove the damage if you cancel the ability animation. The game is not fluid if you are twitching around like someone having a seizure. I would be OK with it -IF- they introduced some sort of advanced mechanics tutorial that explained it to EVERYONE so everyone had the opportunity to learn, but as is now, that does not exist, and this should in turn not exist.

Alexandrious

Wollust wrote: »

Alexandrious wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Manami wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

If you need a macro to animation cancel: you're bad and should get banned.
If you can't animationcancel, l2p (if you have a bad connection, I feel sorry for you but bad luck).

Animation canceling is totally fine and makes the combat feel more smooth and more skillbased instead of some clunky random keypressing.

Edit: oh wow necroing an old thread and I fell for it

I did too. XD

Also, no it makes the combat look ***. I've watched Alex do it and he looks like he's just switching between weaponds rapidly with very twitchy animations.

You know what that means? It's unintentional and a exploit.

Normal animation canceling is on LA or HA, skill, LA or HA. Nothing wrong with that imo.
The canceling with multiple weapon swap though is mostly being used with a macro, which then should be banned. I want to see the person who can use weapon swap canceling effectively in pvp without a macro. One time swap cancel, sure no problem. Multiple times? I have my doubts.

Easily done, recommended without a macro? No, not recommended, the kinda rapid movement involved can actually over time, cause injury to your hand, depending on how you set your keys up.

Sadly Wollust, most of the very top PVPers, and youtube build makers and showoffs, use macros for they're cancelling, your saying they are bad? I wont give out the names of em, but I have spoken to a few of them and they admit to macroing the animation cancelling because it not only makes it alot easier to perform, but its alot less stressful on the hands as well. And sorry to say but most cancelers will use Macros if on PC, thats why alot of players went to Consoles due to the lack of Macros. Those players were smart to do so, they seen how Zenimax tried to cover up a lie, and knew animation cancelling is here to stay until too many players leave with animation cancelling being one of the major reasons for leaving.

Animation cancelling needs to be changed, or the very least reduced to where it would only give a slight advantage. Its an exploit, period, and the players who defend it, just wanna keep the edge they got over the 90 percent majority who cannot do it due to

A: Lacking the hand eye coordination for it.

B: Issue with hands such as injury, slight nerve damage, or other medical conditions preventing them from doing it.

C: Old age can also be a factor, I said can, I know some sixty plus year old dudes who still type at 100+ WPM.

D : Ping, which sadly in Cyrodil can raise upwards to 150+ screwing you on being able to Animation Cancel compared to those who can keep ping below 150.

E: Is unaware of animation cancelling since alot of players do not even read the forums, and if the console versions are still without a text chat system, this is made worse for those players. A tutorial needs to be added if Zenimax wants to continue to try and cover they're ass and lie that this was intentional.

F: Players who do find it as a cheesy exploit and refuse to do it, and their is alot of em.

This is a amateur mmo developer mistake, that they could have prevented with proper testing of the combat system and researching other mmos with action combat systems.

What rapid movement? Pressing a key on your keyboard followed up by a press on your mousebutton (in my case I have my skillkeys bound to my mouse, so doing mousesidebutton with the thumb and then with the index weaponattack) and then again a skill? How is that more likely to injure your hands as just spamming the keys over and over again?

Yes I say they are bad if they have to rely on macros to do the canceling, because it is a way of exploiting ingame mechanics to gain an advantage instead of learning the mechanics and getting them straight or because of laziness. But I do not consider animation canceling an exploit.
I for myself used to be a top PVE DPS before I changed to PVP. And there it is simple: You can not reach the numbers without the animation cancelling. When I started this game I went and informed myself on the end game and the mechanics instead of expecting to be able to compete just because I reach the end level. That is what most people lack. The patience and the will to improve. Instead they want everything for free, which is imo stupid and shouldn't be supported whatsoever.
I learned about animation canceling and started practicing. After 2 weeks I could do it fairly well, nowadays I can perfectly weave weaponattacks with closed eyes simply because of muscle memory. In fact, I can not play without it. Spamming a skillbutton on a single target just feels wrong, clunky and not good for me, I need to do the canceling because I always did. And this is the case for the majority of the people using animation canceling (which is by the way on the EU server more or less every decent player. If you duel often, you'll see what I mean.). And I do not believe in a mass exodus because of animation canceling. There is more severe stuff in this game leading to leaving the game as the weaving and animation cancel.
While I believe you that there are people doing macros for it, I do not believe the majority of the PC players doing so. Simply because it is easy if you practice it enough.

A: Hand-eye coordination is different from person to person, but can be trained for specific stuff (like the canceling). No one can perfectly weave the first time they do it. Practice is the answer therefore. Some need more, some need less.

B: If you have a medical condition preventing you from doing and learning it (which would have an impact anyway even if there wasn't AC, because PVP is about rapid movements and reactions), bad luck. I'm sorry but you can not always look out after everyone. It sounds harsh but it's like that. If we start regarding everyone's medical condition, where do we have to put the line? What is important and should be counted in and what not? Have fun sorting that out.

C: Games are for every age, I agree. But games like this are usually made for a younger audience (in this case I'd say from 16-30ish). This people are the majority. The game isn't exactly well fitted for slower reaction times as older people tend to have. If they'd try to please every minority and every person with a medical condition impacting their game experience, it would turn out rather bad for the majority of the players with normal health conditions and everything.

Yes, Cyrodiil is usually involved with a higher pings when the zergs collide. Sad, but true. And there you have as well other problems as only the weaving. Because then it is about spamming aoe which you usually do not cancel.
And if you have by default a higher ping (you're fine with 150 btw.), again bad luck. Sorry mate, it's an online game. You knew you need a stable connection to enjoy it fully. Not something all the players with good connection should be punished for.

E: Yes, those are the players I mean. Those that expect to be able to wreck everything once they hit the last level. Those that think skills aren't involved and want everything to be nerfed as soon as it doesn't fit them. It is easy to find out about animation canceling. For everyone. You either inform yourself and learn about the game (I don't get how that should be hard, took me a few minutes back then to find out everything I needed) or you don't but get rekt then instead.

F: This is the first time I have ever heard about people thinking of AC as an exploit and I do not believe that there is a lot of them around, as I think the majority of the players should be able to learn it if they really want to.

So, my post was made regarding the animation cancel with weapon attacks, otherwise called weaving. I know there is also block cancel, which is more or less the same as weaving. And there is canceling with swapping weapons, which I do use as well when I activate some kind of a buff (for example molten armaments) on my offbar and then switch immediately to my main bar. I do know that this last mechanic can be exploited with macros doing multiple weaponswaps and skillactivations, but I do not think there is a lot of people actually doing. And if so, those should get permabanned instantly, but not because AC is bad, but rather because macroing is bad.

My opinion, don't kill me please.

You really gotta stop defending an exploit here.

Again, Zenimax, when this issue was first brought up, said it wasnt intended. Then after a long while with no fixes, came flat out and said they did intend it, basically trying to cover their a** because they cannot fix it either without spending alot of money to do so, or they just do not know how.

Animation cancelling can take rapid movement, and depending on how you got your keys setup, over a period of time can cause strain and eventually damage to your hands, that is why alot of the top PVPers on PC, uses macros. I PC gamed for a very long time, longer than 99 percent posting on this board I am sure, and over time I developed quick hand stretches and exercises I do without me even thinking about it as I play games to prevent strain and damage. But depending on how fast you wanna go with cancelling and how much movement you gotta do to achieve the speed, depending on the duration of doing such, you will eventually strain, and hurt your hands, and please, do not lie to me that you do not at least get aches now and then, unless your a slow AC.

Zenimax made this gigantic mistake, its what killed DCUO over time, and they should have foreseen that players will use they're G1s, they're Nagas, they're Anansis, or whatever it is that can be macroed and programmed to be able to animation cancel if either practice not working, or the inability to do so prevents them from doing what is still called an exploit the "Legit" way.

That is why Zenimax will not ban macro users, they know animation cancelling is an unforeseen mechanic thus exploit, they cannot fix it without upsetting another side of players or a different kind of group of players entirely, they dug this hole by not doing the proper alpha/beta testing of the combat system. Thats pretty much bad business. But in the end its bad business in the long run to not fix it anyway. You cant justify banning someone for using a exploit by using another exploit via 3rd party gaming macro tools that is designed and even advertised for MMO use. Macros to make things easier has always existed, even before WoW as many do not seem to know.

Plenty of players refuse to do animation cancelling because it looks stupid and feels cheap. Plenty of players specially on console do not know about animation cancelling and are likely the types who, if on console, probably has a computer they barely use and likely does not read any forums, and once become victim of animation cancelling too many times, will either rage quit thinking the game is broken *Seen ALOT of pre-owned PS4 and Xbone copies of the game in every Gamestop I go to* or will go online to find this forum, and find out about it, to then proceed to trying it for themselves, or quit thinking its a stupid exploit mechanic and shouldnt belong in a mmo like this.

You say games are for every age, what about the working guys who were 25-40 at the time when they first played ES Arena, ES Daggerfall, and loved it, only to age 21 years to find out they cant enjoy the game, or even compete due to the 46-61 or older fans of the elder scrolls games being unable to have the hand eye coordination, or make the quick movements needed to Light Slash Cancel to Skill Cancel to Weapon Swap Light swap Cancel to Skill like alot of the so called "Younger Crowd" you mention can do? What if advanced age prevents their hands from doing so? So those long time fans need to be punished? I bet those long time fans, alot of em, will use Macros so they can compete too.

If macro using to be able to use a unintended exploit that is Animation canceling to be akin to cheating, than animation cancelling as a whole is cheating too. In no way should you be able to get off what I mentioned above in less than 3 seconds basically doing 4 attacks in 2-3 seconds should be seen as "Skillful" play and "Intended"

It clearly is not. That is an exploit, and one Zenimax needs to fix before it causes more players to leave. Now im sure some low level moderator may come onto here and say to try and save face for Zenimax, that macro use is a cheat, and is against a unseen, non-existant line in the ToS, but they wont ban people for it, at all, period, they know they screwed up, they will only lose more customers if they did decide to start banning players using macros, macro use, which is allowed in many other mmos, thus less money for them.

Also, you kids gotta stop being naive, you think any of your "top pvp" buddies will flat out admit they use macros to animation cancel? They wanna keep their ego and look like a God among-st their peers. Of course they wont come out and say they use Macros for their cancelling if its gonna make them look bad.

Seriously, cmon now, dont they teach anything in schools anymore? This kinda thing on the human ego should be covered in history and politics classes. Sighs, our failing education system.