Animation cancelling is killing PVP, especially for Oceanics

dsalter

it's also highly unrealistic and clearly a broken mechanic that zeni wants to "pretend" is intended. it's clearly being abused and should have been fixed near the beginning.
it gives others an advantage and is macroable. and of course you cant really prove macro's so gg zeni. you done messed up and wont admit it.

Trikki

<edited: haven't got something nice to say, don't say it.>

Tankqull

DeanTheCat wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

One good defensive action a high ping player can utilize is dodgeroll, as the check for dodgeroll takes place clientside, rather then serverside. Which means if lets say someone targets a Snipe at you, you can still dodge it successfully even with high ping as the check to see if you actually get hit by that snipe is client-based, rather then server-based. Also, use and abuse stealth mechanics, as the less time you spend visible, the less chance you have of getting a snipe in your back.

It doesn't make sense for the dodgeroll check to be clientside. Everything should be serverside.

If you put that check server side, you can say goodbye to any hope of high ping players playing effectively. Latency and lag is the reason why it's client side, same with movement. It's also the reason why Sorcs can fly with bolt escape when it's lagging to oblivion.

its actually the otherway round because bolt beeing serverside they are "able" to .

DeanTheCat

Tankqull wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

One good defensive action a high ping player can utilize is dodgeroll, as the check for dodgeroll takes place clientside, rather then serverside. Which means if lets say someone targets a Snipe at you, you can still dodge it successfully even with high ping as the check to see if you actually get hit by that snipe is client-based, rather then server-based. Also, use and abuse stealth mechanics, as the less time you spend visible, the less chance you have of getting a snipe in your back.

It doesn't make sense for the dodgeroll check to be clientside. Everything should be serverside.

If you put that check server side, you can say goodbye to any hope of high ping players playing effectively. Latency and lag is the reason why it's client side, same with movement. It's also the reason why Sorcs can fly with bolt escape when it's lagging to oblivion.

its actually the otherway round because bolt beeing serverside they are "able" to .

Gah. I really need to verify some of my info sources next time. /facepalm

Sorry about that bit of misinformation, I got that bit about Sorcs from a friend who plays Sorc. Still, dodge roll is kinda one of the few defensive options that still work at high pings. Wards don't apply responsively, block has a delay before it actually works. That kinda only leaves dodgeroll.

Atirez

Perhaps the issue here is:

1. Animation cancelling is not in any tutorial in the game.
2. You only notice it for the first time in vet PvP server after being able to tank a ton of hits on non-vet PvP.
3. The players using it are generally long paying well specced and geared v14s
4. The players on the receiving end are generally V1-V5

Aside from the fact a V1-5 perhaps has pretty much no chance 1v1 v any half decent v14 anyway makes for a very unpleasant experience.

Snit

Atirez wrote: »

Perhaps the issue here is:

1. Animation cancelling is not in any tutorial in the game.
2. You only notice it for the first time in vet PvP server after being able to tank a ton of hits on non-vet PvP.
3. The players using it are generally long paying well specced and geared v14s
4. The players on the receiving end are generally V1-V5

Aside from the fact a V1-5 perhaps has pretty much no chance 1v1 v any half decent v14 anyway makes for a very unpleasant experience.

Anyone in a competent PvE guild also learns proper weaving by the time they do their first vet dungeon. It's a core mechanic.

NotSo

Just give every skill a cooldown equivalent to the animation. THERE, I SAID IT!

Lufian_Cweald

DeanTheCat wrote: »

An action of a lower priority can be animation canceled by an action of a higher priority, though they must still respect the GCD (Global Cooldown) between each attack cycle. That means in a single GCD attack cycle, I can get off 1 light attack, 1 Ability, 1 Ultimate and 1 Bash. This is in addition to the fact that for some skills (Gap closers mainly), the GCD of the skill triggers as soon as you press the button, rather when the skill actually connects.

For example, I can cast Ambush from 27m away (Thanks to Reach II passive), and while the 1 second long Teleportation animation is playing, I press Surprise Attack. As the GCD of Ambush begins as soon as I press the button (It still has a 0.5 second cast time, no matter what the tooltip likes to state) and the GCD of all skills is 1.3 seconds, both abilities go off seemingly at the same time.

Hi Dean,

Trikki may get annoyed I am hijacking his thread (it's for the betterment of the guild I swear Trikki)

I was testing what you stated above Dean and I have to assume I am doing something wrong. I tried on NPCs over and over to Ambush and while traveling to hit Surprise Attack and it did not work once.

Having said that I have been on the recieving end of DKs Using Leap and me suddenly dead and dead recap saying they had Leaped, Heavy attack, and <insert skill> to do large damage to me. Can you elaborate more on how things work for you. Maybe you can help some of us Oceanic people out here.

DeanTheCat

Lufian_Cweald wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

An action of a lower priority can be animation canceled by an action of a higher priority, though they must still respect the GCD (Global Cooldown) between each attack cycle. That means in a single GCD attack cycle, I can get off 1 light attack, 1 Ability, 1 Ultimate and 1 Bash. This is in addition to the fact that for some skills (Gap closers mainly), the GCD of the skill triggers as soon as you press the button, rather when the skill actually connects.

For example, I can cast Ambush from 27m away (Thanks to Reach II passive), and while the 1 second long Teleportation animation is playing, I press Surprise Attack. As the GCD of Ambush begins as soon as I press the button (It still has a 0.5 second cast time, no matter what the tooltip likes to state) and the GCD of all skills is 1.3 seconds, both abilities go off seemingly at the same time.

Hi Dean,

Trikki may get annoyed I am hijacking his thread (it's for the betterment of the guild I swear Trikki)

I was testing what you stated above Dean and I have to assume I am doing something wrong. I tried on NPCs over and over to Ambush and while traveling to hit Surprise Attack and it did not work once.

Having said that I have been on the recieving end of DKs Using Leap and me suddenly dead and dead recap saying they had Leaped, Heavy attack, and <insert skill> to do large damage to me. Can you elaborate more on how things work for you. Maybe you can help some of us Oceanic people out here.

Always happy to share what I know

You'll need maximum range on any of these abilities to chain them together. Else there simply isn't enough time before the ability lands to actually pull it off. For an ability like ambush, what's actually going on behind the scenes is that you basically move at an incredible speed with clipping turned off, which is why when watching another NB using ambush, you see a blackish trail moving through the air before the ability lands. The "Blackish trail" is actually the Nightblade in question moving towards his/her target.

As far as the server is concerned, you are already behind the target, but there is a delay before damage is applied to factor in the animation to give the illusion that you are dealing damage when you arrive. This is the window of time in which you can land the surprise attack.

In the case of an ability like Critical Rush, the slow swing speed of the heavy attack itself allows you to start charging your heavy, then activate critical rush, closing the distance just in time for the check to see if your heavy attack actually hit something to activate. Melee weapon heavy attacks differ from ranged heavy attacks in the way that the check to see if it hits occurs halfway through the duration of the heavy attack swing animation rather when the projectile travels it's full distance.

Projectile travel speed itself can be used to stack multiple attacks together. A DK with an inferno staff can fully charge his heavy attack after prebuffing with molten weapons before traveling with the projectile by activating Draconic Leap. As the damage of the heavy attack is calculated when the attack connects, this allows the DK to "execute" his targets with a inferno staff heavy + leap combo. The leap does high damage to the target, followed up by a instant damage skill mid flight, with the projectile connecting at the end getting massive damage bonus due to Molten weapons, executing the target in question.

Magicka Nightblades have a similar combo, in which precast Proximity Detonation is used, then waiting a second before using a Teleport Strike -> Soul Harvest Combo. Shadowy disguise is then activated, ensuring the Proximity Detonation will Crit as well as buffing with Master Assassin passive. The Stygian 5pc bonus shines here, with an extra 20% damage from spells when invisible or stealthed. Stack with the stealthy racial for a massive AoE stealth nuke combo.

I hope this will prove informative to you.

May your road lead to warm sands.

Sharee

I don't have a problem with animation cancelling allowing skilled players who mastered the timing to deal higher damage than without it.

The problem i see however is that this particular timing skill is far too easily replaced with a simple keyboard macro.

I could not help but notice a sharp increase in the amount of 'skilled' players i am encountering in Cyrodiil lately. I would say that of all the times i got instagibbed by a perfectly timed set of abilities since the game was in beta, 90% of those happened within the last 1-2 months, often by players i never heard of before.

The human nature of always taking the path of least resistance, combined with the low probability of getting caught (how do you prove someone used a macro, as opposed to just being good?) means cyrodiil is getting infested with this, and something needs to be done. Wrecking blow->surprise attack->soul harvest (and other combos like that which can deal full HP bar of damage within 0.3 seconds) are too powerful for a 1-button-push attack.

DeanTheCat

Sharee wrote: »

I don't have a problem with animation cancelling allowing skilled players who mastered the timing to deal higher damage than without it.

The problem i see however is that this particular timing skill is far too easily replaced with a simple keyboard macro.

I could not help but notice a sharp increase in the amount of 'skilled' players i am encountering in Cyrodiil lately. I would say that of all the times i got instagibbed by a perfectly timed set of abilities since the game was in beta, 90% of those happened within the last 1-2 months, often by players i never heard of before.

The human nature of always taking the path of least resistance, combined with the low probability of getting caught (how do you prove someone used a macro, as opposed to just being good?) means cyrodiil is getting infested with this, and something needs to be done. Wrecking blow->surprise attack->soul harvest (and other combos like that which can deal full HP bar of damage within 0.3 seconds) are too powerful for a 1-button-push attack.

I don't like these players any more then you do. They give a bad name to people who actually know what they are doing. Sadly, nowadays it's either:

1) Instagib from stealth
2) Perma dodge roll
3) 15k+ Fragment Sorcs
4) Infinite Shield Stacking
5) Jesus Beam spammers
6) 10k whips
7) Permablockers that can't be stam drained

Also, it's just siege vs siege vs blob vs blob. The numbers in blobs and zergs are growing day by day, and people run around with 10man gank squads now. Bubbles the server hamster is fainting as a result. As I said before, Cyrodiil is a massive arms race, each fighting OPness with their own brand of OPness. Which brings me back to my point that I made in another thread about "Max" builds.

The removal of softcaps, the champion system along with the lowered HP is Cyrodiil has thrown everything out of whack. As more and more weaknesses are able to be mitigated passively, areas of builds that was previously devoted to sustain or staying alive are repurposed into offensive aspects. Looking at the big picture, animation cancelling isn't really the main culprit. The champion system is the main culprit.

Tankqull

NotSo wrote: »

Just give every skill a cooldown equivalent to the animation. THERE, I SAID IT!

they would then need to normalize animations as the animation time differ significantly while the internal "animation cycle cooldown" is at around 0.8sec.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

The idea of animation cancelling just galls me on principal. I think I find it wierd because I expect the point of my weapon impact to be at the end of my swing and that's not how it works here.

I personally feel that there needs to be a rhythm to combat and animation cancelling takes that away in favor of cramming as many abilities as possible into as small a window as you can.

I dunno, it just feels like a broken mechanic and I wish the developers didn't intend for it to be this way. It's like you learn the system, then you have to learn to circumvent that system in order to be effective in PvP or high-end PvE.

Makes me sad.

Jamebo

Wow, this is the meat of PvP in this game? Sounds incredibly boring. You know what would help with all this spamming nonsense? Same move damage proration, and some proper scaling. Also, Let's say the same player hits you with the same ability twice in a row and your character is free to use a dodge roll or something in return. Then again I haven't played much of PvP yet, so I can't make an accurate assessment of what needs balanced. I WAS looking forward to it, but you all have convinced me to stay away from Cyrodil.

DeanTheCat

Jamebo wrote: »

Wow, this is the meat of PvP in this game? Sounds incredibly boring. You know what would help with all this spamming nonsense? Same move damage proration, and some proper scaling. Also, Let's say the same player hits you with the same ability twice in a row and your character is free to use a dodge roll or something in return. Then again I haven't played much of PvP yet, so I can't make an accurate assessment of what needs balanced. I WAS looking forward to it, but you all have convinced me to stay away from Cyrodil.

Thing is, pretty much everything discussed here are perfect scenarios. Which means a very skilled player vs someone who has absolutely no idea what he is doing. In an actual fight vs two equally skilled and equally geared players, the fight will literally never end until one side receives help due to the perfect mirror countering that is going on. I toss a nuke, my opponent puts up a ward. My opponent tries to nuke me, I dodge out of the way. Things like that.

Unless it is was a gank (Which really isn't a fight at all), you'll always have time to counterplay what is being flung at you. Active defenses are simply that strong in ESO that a player who knows what he is doing regarding active defenses can kill multiple (unskilled) enemies without so much as a scratch. The high damage numbers that people (myself included) like to fling around are perfect scenario numbers, which means from stealth, vs a light armored, non blocking, debuffed target. No better then a target dummy essentially. Pretty much every single issue mentioned in this thread is non-existent in non-veteran PvP, as the player base in non-vet PvP doesn't have the stats, abilities or skills needed to pull it off.

If you want to improve yourself, might I recommend reading my guide to new players to Cyrodiil? It will teach you the basics of what you need to survive in Cyrodiil, and what to expect. The link is in my signature.

dsalter

animation canceling or "weaving" as everyone calls it, is destroying the game as it's allowing macro's (which zeni forbid) to get you insanly higher damage output. and will continue to always be a problem untill its removed.

dont think i dont see that you dont fix it because your extreamly lazy Zeni. think blizzard would be where it is if they slacked on fixing balances?

Atirez

Goes to tutorial; shows person winding up a heavy attack. Woop I can interupt (bashes). Goes to PvP - No wind up time, not cast delays, nothing. Dead.

Issues are:
Animation cancelling. Just remove it, it's unnecessary. It may be that a skilful player can be skilful animation cancelling, but there are other forms of skill that can be utilised. Such as - knowing when to use a high powered high cast time attack as opposed to just spamming them in the hope you kill something.

High damage low health. I have a VR7, VR1 and VR10 char and not one of them stands a hope in hell against any reasonably geared VR14. Firstly, I am not going to spend a crap ton of gold getting gold gear or running dungeons to get gear because the act of running the dungeon would mean I had outlevelled it and would need to do it again. My spell power with a blue staff, two torugs + spell damage on 3 peices of jewely is a paltry 1078 with 22k Mag on a VR7. I tickle people. In short, anything below VR14 for an average player in PvP is a pointless waste of time. Group up or die.

AOE spamming zerg balls, basically sit there watching your character walk on the spot for a while with full health. Knowing when the server eventually sends you information you just insta-die. Fun.

Too many skill points. My build is: Have all the passives for everything, have everything unlocked. Where is the choice here? Do I choose these more offensive passives or these defensive ones. Will more magika regen help or more crit. Remove a lot of them, make people think about what they want and dont want. Builds are about gear and unlocking high level passives to use your abundant skill points on - not making choices.

Champion System, this is still a vertical levelling system not a horizontal one. People level and are able to passively do more damage, mitigate more damage and generally be far better. This is not skill. And as time goes by, PvP will be harder and harder for people to get in to, if its not already. So no new players, PvP eventually stagnates - well like it has.

I dont mind being hit for a ton of damage IF that person has some flaw I can take advantage of. But that doesn't appear to be the case for me. And watching PvP on twitch of great players, they can take advantage of these small differences. But for me and countless others, no doubt, it is just infuriating and extremely demoralising.

Atirez

Snit wrote: »

Atirez wrote: »

Perhaps the issue here is:

1. Animation cancelling is not in any tutorial in the game.
2. You only notice it for the first time in vet PvP server after being able to tank a ton of hits on non-vet PvP.
3. The players using it are generally long paying well specced and geared v14s
4. The players on the receiving end are generally V1-V5

Aside from the fact a V1-5 perhaps has pretty much no chance 1v1 v any half decent v14 anyway makes for a very unpleasant experience.

Anyone in a competent PvE guild also learns proper weaving by the time they do their first vet dungeon. It's a core mechanic.

All towards doing enough DPS to take down a boss before the boss mechanics kick in, which makes the game a little more boring and easier.

Trikki

Well, I'm cancelling my sub until they fix this bs. PVP just isn't fun any more so I'll talk with my wallet and hope enough others do so they'll listen and fix.

Hopefully it will be before Cyro becomes an Oceanic ghost town.

byrom101b16_ESO

NotSo wrote: »

Just give every skill a cooldown equivalent to the animation. THERE, I SAID IT!

I said it earlier in the thread.

So happy to emphasise it again by quoting you.

It's obvious fix to this game-ruining abuse.

H4or0n

NotSo wrote: »

Just give every skill a cooldown equivalent to the animation. THERE, I SAID IT!

+ 1000

Lokov

and this fkn AC is usable only in stamina builds

xylena

there's no consistency to which animations can be canceled (cut short) and which cant

executioner for example, is a badly desynced animation that registers its damage at the beginning of the swing, so you can ani cancel pretty much the entire overhead swing animation

Waffennacht

xylena wrote: »

there's no consistency to which animations can be canceled (cut short) and which cant

executioner for example, is a badly desynced animation that registers its damage at the beginning of the swing, so you can ani cancel pretty much the entire overhead swing animation

They may not be consistent with each other, but are consistent themselves. So just using that executioner example, it will always been animation cancelling from the beginning (so consistent)

It is not a bug, it is a game mechanic. It also doesn't change anything. Just use the animation cancelled time as its "cool down" example, you can cancel crystal fragments but only after giving it half a second first, this half second is its "real" cool down time.

What people are advocating is a Longer cool down time. My thought process on this, its not the NB attacks dmg or time that's what is being complained about, but rather the inability to know such attacks are occurring.

Logically if you kept the ratio of ability to time the same, even with a few seconds of cool down you're still insta gib (because your defense has the same response ratio aka maybe one defense to several attacks)

If instakilled is your problem, im thinking your only recourse is higher defense, im thinking even a higher cool down time wont change that (again because the NB's attacks will still occur in a more rapid fashion than your defense abilities)

xylena

the "cooldown" needs to sync with the animation... skilled players should be able to time their next attaack with the end of the previous one, as opposed to timing their next attack to some seemingly arbitrary point mid weapon swing... bad for immersion when you drop dead on the ground before your opponent's weapon even swings

Cathexis

0.1 second cool down after each cast.

Problem fixed.

Alexandrious

Sighs. Im sorry but yea, Animation Cancelling needs to be fixed, and Zenimax needs to grow a pair and admit they screwed up.

I will not lie, I did in fact make use of my Razer Anansi and Naga to try out animation macro cancelling to see how well it works. I mean ffs I can get off two light attacks per second, three depending on ping, using my weapon swap macro, pretty much doing good dps and building up high ult without any use of friggen stamina. Its disgusting that apparently, Zenimax allows the use of macros, spite what people are saying.

I played MMOs for sixteen years, and I pretty much can say flat out that animation cancelling, macro or not, is a exploit, caused by a what is unforeseen by zenimax. And instead of doing a total fix, or at least a good bandaid by putting a 0.2 second GCD minimum on everything, they decided to try and appease to the players, the minority, who likes the animation cancelling, and made the wrong decision to try and embrace it, pretending they intended it all along, and we all know how Zenimax makes tons of bad decisions.

Wasnt DCUO pretty much dying off now because of Animation Cancelling being a major factor? Didn't alot of PC players moved to Consoles because animation cancelling is alot harder, and thus less expected to do there due to the inability to create the needed macros to do it save for the very, very few who has a expensive, programmable controller of some sort, and they do indeed exist, I have one myself, a special PS4 Mouse and Receiver box that allows the use of a Keyboard as well, with everything I need to customize the controls and even make macros on the PS4, but the thing costed 140 dollars.

Yes I have played a few mmos with animation cancelling but they were no where NEAR as significant as it is in ESO, TERA I had a cancel for my Lancer to be able to turn on a dime. Vindictus their was a few cancels certain characters can do, one of which is on my Hurk, but it was just that only one. It was very few and sometimes, they got fixed cuz it would do too much dmg. But otherwise pretty insignificant and you can compete in PVE/PVP just fine without needing to do it.

But its not like that in ESO, I mean hell, it just looks so stupid. My partner watches me and doesnt understand wth I am doing on my unfinished Modified Lefty DK Build to be doing the dmg I am doing because I am cancelling some of the animations before it can even fully go off, yet it causes damage anyway. My Two Hand line, I am still missing 3 of my morphs, dont have any of the passives, I am a friggen DK, while she is a Templar who is fully into DPS only stuff in her champion points, wearing 5 medium and 2 heavy, while im wearing full heavy, Im using a VR4 blue sword I picked up off the ground, shes using a VR7 Sharpened with enchant, she has all the passives and all her 2H morphed, using a popular Templar Build and using all the skills right and also my champion points are spread to tank/dps centered stuff unlike her and yet....

I DO MORE DAMAGE THAN SHE DOES BECAUSE I AM USING MACROED ANIMATION CANCELLING AND SHE IS NOT DOING ANY CANCELLING AT ALL

She flat out tells me it looks completely stupid, that anyone who uses it is a unskilled coward relying on a blatant cheat/exploit. That Zenimax is foolish to allow this to go on for so long since me and her are damn sure, if Champion Points wasnt what causes people to quit, its Animation cancelling and how its pretty much REQUIRED to do now, since Zenimax made another glorious mistake by scaling all the PVE up in assumption that players WILL be animation cancelling.

Honestly, this b.s makes me feel very, very dirty to use, but its what everyone who wants to compete is doing, what friggen choice do I have? Grind to 2000 CP to make up for not using it? Yea, sure, ill get on that.

Zenimax, either rework the core, make a GCD for all skills, or put into the script that someone else suggested, that if the animation does not at the very least, halfway finish, it causes no damage. This can be fixed easily, just please admit you screwed up and get this fixed before the game gets more empty than it already is.

For now im gonna go and learn animation cancelling the legit way, spite I got the tools to full on macro it, and that Zenimax apparently somewhere said that macros are "ok". I think the people who said that are B.Sing but whatever, I did for awhile to see what all the cool kids was goin on about, it was disgusting, it gave me nausea, that something like this is allowed to keep going on.

If this game didnt have "Elder Scrolls" in the title, it woulda been dead half a year ago. I beseech you Zenimax, stop it with the superiority complex your blatantly trying to show, admit your wrong, humble yourselves enough to learn from the mistakes, failures, good ideas and successes of other mmos and get this game of yours fixed. The state its in now, its heartbreaking that it has "Elder Scrolls" in its title at all. Pretty much throwing mud all over the franchise name with this MMO and the state its in.

Anyway to all the non-cheating players out there. Good on you to stick to it. Just please know, if you get killed by some guy who seems to have done nothing but thrust his hips in your direction and scratching his back, then he probably light slash weapon swap macroed you to death and is lulzing spacebar warrior hopping around for it.

Manami

Also, if you're going to pretend as if this is a skill and not a exploit, then I don't want you around.

You really going to say to anyone that the reason everyone left to the consoles was because they are better than the PC version? Then I will laugh in your face, and I have a really bitchy laugh.



It comes down to a few words to describe this "Skill" Cowardly, Pathetic and CHEATING.


Oh! and believe me, If I used it I could destroy all of you in PVP. I just choose not to be a cheater.

ToRelax

Manami wrote: »

Also, if you're going to pretend as if this is a skill and not a exploit, then I don't want you around.

You really going to say to anyone that the reason everyone left to the consoles was because they are better than the PC version? Then I will laugh in your face, and I have a really bitchy laugh.



It comes down to a few words to describe this "Skill" Cowardly, Pathetic and CHEATING.


Oh! and believe me, If I used it I could destroy all of you in PVP. I just choose not to be a cheater.

Sure you could. That's also why you ignore the fact animation cancelling is possible on consoles just as well.

Wollust

If you need a macro to animation cancel: you're bad and should get banned.
If you can't animationcancel, l2p (if you have a bad connection, I feel sorry for you but bad luck).

Animation canceling is totally fine and makes the combat feel more smooth and more skillbased instead of some clunky random keypressing.

Edit: oh wow necroing an old thread and I fell for it