Sorcerer - Lack of stamina morphs

Jar_Ek

@Varicite If I was a betting man, I would say the took all the skills that seemed to logically use a weapon to cause damage and provided a stamina morph. Which if true is a huge band aid solution that is likely to cause problems.
Hopefully @zos are aware of this and have plans to work on a real solution... It could even be the fabled 3 morph solution (dreams)

Father

I want some stamina love for sorcerers. The thing is magicka sorcerers right now are in a really good spot..even too good if you bring PvP in.

Stamina Sorcerers want to go full weapon damage build just like the other 3 classes and stil remain viable and sustainable with DPS just like the rest.I really don't care for active skills that much unless it gives me some stamina perks.

Varicite

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Varicite If I was a betting man, I would say the took all the skills that seemed to logically use a weapon to cause damage and provided a stamina morph. Which if true is a huge band aid solution that is likely to cause problems.
Hopefully @zos are aware of this and have plans to work on a real solution... It could even be the fabled 3 morph solution (dreams)

Breathing fire from your mouth doesn't really seem like something that would require a weapon, though. Neither does channeling dark magic to regain stamina. <.<

I do fully agree that what they did was more of a band-aid fix than anything else, which explains the extreme disparity in skills available for use for the classes.

I also hope that they will revisit this solution in the future and give us REAL balance, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one. It took a year for them to even consider throwing stamina builds a bone at all.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I support Sorcerers getting stamina options as long as they don't screw around with the spells I currently use. That's really the problem here. We have already gotten used to our builds post 1.6 and for half of them to suddenly scale off a different pool is going to be a real problem for a lot of people. I feel like they already lost their window to do this without negatively impacting people that already play sorcs. Best case scenario is that they tweak them to give some sort of passive bonus to stamina based attacks without changing which pool they base them on.

The question here is:

Why do Sorcerers get a free pass when no other class did when it comes to converting class damage skills to stamina?

What makes Sorcs so special?

I am POSITIVE that DKs would have absolutely LOVED to have this, rather than watch stam builds get Unstable Flame.

I am POSITIVE that NBs would have ADORED to have this, rather than watch stam builds get Ambush.

But Sorcs can just say "Yeah, not US, we are special snowflakes, and not only do stam builds not get ANY damage abilities, but if they ever DO want to convert something to stam, you have to give us THREE morphs instead of the way you did every other class."

Or "well, sure I GUESS you can convert something to Stamina, but ONLY if magicka Sorcs do not lose access to ANYTHING AT ALL".

...why do you believe that you deserve this?

What makes you better than everybody else?

That's not really what I was saying. This is something that should have been done during PTS. You know that server that's designed to test these changes? It's a bit late now to suddenly make us all change everything again. We are not going to be reimbursed for the all the skill changes to find the right morphs for our play-style, or the mats we used for our gear, or the time we spent getting the sets that suited us best. So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka? I would bet most people chose the class for that very reason. Your asinine assumption that it's only because I feel like I'm better than "everybody" else or that I "deserve" something others don't is just a lazy ad hominem attack. There are some effective sorcerer stamina builds out there. Maybe look into what makes those work and adjust it so that they can be better without effecting how most people play the class.

Varicite

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I support Sorcerers getting stamina options as long as they don't screw around with the spells I currently use. That's really the problem here. We have already gotten used to our builds post 1.6 and for half of them to suddenly scale off a different pool is going to be a real problem for a lot of people. I feel like they already lost their window to do this without negatively impacting people that already play sorcs. Best case scenario is that they tweak them to give some sort of passive bonus to stamina based attacks without changing which pool they base them on.

The question here is:

Why do Sorcerers get a free pass when no other class did when it comes to converting class damage skills to stamina?

What makes Sorcs so special?

I am POSITIVE that DKs would have absolutely LOVED to have this, rather than watch stam builds get Unstable Flame.

I am POSITIVE that NBs would have ADORED to have this, rather than watch stam builds get Ambush.

But Sorcs can just say "Yeah, not US, we are special snowflakes, and not only do stam builds not get ANY damage abilities, but if they ever DO want to convert something to stam, you have to give us THREE morphs instead of the way you did every other class."

Or "well, sure I GUESS you can convert something to Stamina, but ONLY if magicka Sorcs do not lose access to ANYTHING AT ALL".

...why do you believe that you deserve this?

What makes you better than everybody else?

That's not really what I was saying. This is something that should have been done during PTS. You know that server that's designed to test these changes? It's a bit late now to suddenly make us all change everything again. We are not going to be reimbursed for the all the skill changes to find the right morphs for our play-style, or the mats we used for our gear, or the time we spent getting the sets that suited us best. So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka? I would bet most people chose the class for that very reason. Your asinine assumption that it's only because I feel like I'm better than "everybody" else or that I "deserve" something others don't is just a lazy ad hominem attack. There are some effective sorcerer stamina builds out there. Maybe look into what makes those work and adjust it so that they can be better without effecting how most people play the class.

And what I am saying is that unless you have a time machine, the fact that it wasn't done during PTS is a completely moot point.

There is a disparity and it needs to be fixed.

You talk about the class having a bias for magicka? Every class had a bias for magicka prior to 1.6, every single one of them. Again, Sorcs are not unique whatsoever in this regard. The only thing unique about Sorcs currently is that they are the only class that is behind the times.

Your statement of "Sure, stamina sorcs can have some stuff, as long as it's nothing that I use"... Do you think that's throwing them a bone? Who do you think that is helping? This is basically saying "Sure, stamina sorcs can have some stuff as long as it's not useful".

Because let's be honest, if it wasn't useful, you wouldn't be using it...

It's like the equivalent of saying "Hey stam sorcs, here, take Rune Prison and, uh.. no, that's it, because we like everything else. We're good now, right?"

I don't find gear complacency to be a compelling argument to continue to watch Stamina Sorcs be an endangered species in the game. They were never great, and now they are pretty much awful compared to everyone else.

Yes, there are stamina Sorc builds that use little to NO sorcerer skills on their bar, and every one of them is inferior to what ANY other class can accomplish. That's the problem.

Sorcs are behind everyone else when it comes to stamina builds, by a noticeable margin.

That is NOT okay.

PS) Please post some viable Trials Stamina Sorc builds that are doing comparable DPS to the other stamina builds currently. I'll wait.

Erock25

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka?

Why do people keep perpetuating this garbage? All classes were 100% magicka.

Varicite

Erock25 wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka?

Why do people keep perpetuating this garbage? All classes were 100% magicka.

As an aside, I did actually try to find some post-1.6 stamina Sorc builds that were comparable DPS to other classes' stam builds (I didn't find any, of course).

Among the threads I did find was a build that you had posted for somebody looking to roll stam Sorc. I checked it out.

It had a whopping TWO Sorc abilities on its bars: Bound Armaments and Summon Storm Atronach.

That pretty much sums up every other build that I found for post-1.6 stam Sorcs too, and not a single build that was comparable to other classes for HM Trials.

I have to laugh at just how depressing the situation is, and just how vehemently opposed to giving up ANY of their toys the other Sorcerers are.

eventide03b14a_ESO

I never said that sorcerers shouldn't have the option to go stamina based. You're talking about fairness, yet I created my sorcerer prior to 1.6 with the full intention of making him magicka based. Now all the work I have done after 1.6 should be meaningless because nobody said anything compelling enough to ZOS during PTS to cause them to change it. So basically every other class gets the opportunity to figure out their builds, work towards their new armor and CP passives, but I should just do nothing because any time I invest is potentially going to mean nothing because a handful of people want to play the sorc as a stamina based class and change the spells to suit their needs. I'm all for you guys having your options, but you want it at the expense of people who enjoy the class the way it is and then cry that we are not being fair to you. Are you kidding me?

Varicite

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I never said that sorcerers shouldn't have the option to go stamina based. You're talking about fairness, yet I created my sorcerer prior to 1.6 with the full intention of making him magicka based. Now all the work I have done after 1.6 should be meaningless because nobody said anything compelling enough to ZOS during PTS to cause them to change it. So basically every other class gets the opportunity to figure out their builds, work towards their new armor and CP passives, but I should just do nothing because any time I invest is potentially going to mean nothing because a handful of people want to play the sorc as a stamina based class and change the spells to suit their needs. I'm all for you guys having your options, but you want it at the expense of people who enjoy the class the way it is and then cry that we are not being fair to you. Are you kidding me?

No no, you're right. The entire class should be inferior in stamina roles because you don't want to change your clothes.

See, that is sarcasm. ; )

Are you somehow not working toward your CP right now? Do you think ZOS is just going to change a morph and then be like "OKAY SORCS, YOU ALL GET TO START OVER AT 0 CP NOW : D"

If other people get a stamina morph, do you suddenly NOT need spell damage, magicka cost reduction, regen, etc? I don't know what you're wearing, but if you're a magicka Sorc, it's most likely focused on at least a couple of these things.

I'm glad that you enjoy your class the way that it is. Others would like to enjoy the class the way that ZOS told them they can play it, which is by picking up any weapon and being viable.

Right now, that's not the case.

Jar_Ek

Just to add. These discussions started on the PTS prior to 1.6 release. This is not a new thing, it has just moved from pts to combat forums.

eventide03b14a_ESO

The spells are just not used for the same thing. There is a night and day difference between how you would use Streak and BOL for instance. So which one do we change to stamina? Now I have to change how I play because a spell I used to use for a specific purpose no longer scales off of magicka. You think this is just a simple matter of people not caring about having stamina options. It's not the case at all. The same holds true for other spells like Crystal Fragments, or Liquid Lightning. There is no guarantee that they will happen to change the morphs I don't use to stamina based. But that's fine as long you're happy right?

Varicite

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The spells are just not used for the same thing. There is a night and day difference between how you would use Streak and BOL for instance. So which one do we change to stamina? Now I have to change how I play because a spell I used to use for a specific purpose no longer scales off of magicka. You think this is just a simple matter of people not caring about having stamina options. It's not the case at all. The same holds true for other spells like Crystal Fragments, or Liquid Lightning. There is no guarantee that they will happen to change the morphs I don't use to stamina based. But that's fine as long you're happy right?

You're right, there is no guarantee that stamina Sorcs will only be given your trash. They might actually get something useful.

Scaaaaary.

Cathexis

@eventide03b14a_ESO you would add the damage and stun that streak gives to BoL and then create a stamina friendly morph with different properties

No that wouldn't be op. It would just increase the utility of the bol morph.

Everybody wins.

Cathexis

Another alternative might be to nuke the summoning tree for stam builds (since its a garbage tree)

eventide03b14a_ESO

Cathexis wrote: »

@eventide03b14a_ESO you would add the damage and stun that streak gives to BoL and then create a stamina friendly morph with different properties

No that wouldn't be op. It would just increase the utility of the bol morph.

Everybody wins.

That would be awesome but you realize how much QQ there would be when you add the offense and defense of both morphs to a single morph. They would never do that, nor should they. I gave up streak to use BOL because it was more useful now that streak has been rendered useless in PvP. I would gladly give streak over to the stamina people, but there is no guarantee that this will happen. They could just as easily be given BOL which would kind of suck. If I had the stamina to roll dodge endlessly the way that stamina builds do, I wouldn't need BE at all.

Glurin

The real problem here, @Varicite, is that you talk about fairness and equality across classes, but then you dictate that the only possible solution is to switch to stamina morphs and belittle anyone who disagrees as being selfish. You are completely unwilling to even consider anyone else's opinion, let alone the flaws in your own.

Equality does not mean everybody has to have the same number of all the same stuff. Balance does not mean stamina should get everything. Fairness does not mean you should get what someone else has just because you want it.

I know you are a min/maxer and that min/maxers tend to have difficulty with the idea of there being more than one effective approach to any given problem, but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others in the manner you have been.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Glurin wrote: »

The real problem here, @Varicite, is that you talk about fairness and equality across classes, but then you dictate that the only possible solution is to switch to stamina morphs and belittle anyone who disagrees as being selfish. You are completely unwilling to even consider anyone else's opinion, let alone the flaws in your own.

Equality does not mean everybody has to have the same number of all the same stuff. Balance does not mean stamina should get everything. Fairness does not mean you should get what someone else has just because you want it.

I know you are a min/maxer and that min/maxers tend to have difficulty with the idea of there being more than one effective approach to any given problem, but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others in the manner you have been.

That's really all I've been trying to say. Though less diplomatically.

Cathexis

@eventide03b14a_ESO How many more times do I have to say ENDLESS DODGE ROLL IS HIGHLY CIRCUMSTANTIAL, YOU DOBT AUTMATICALLY GET ENDLESS DODGE ROLL JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE STAMINA.

Also if the worst thing that comes out of merging bol and streak is qq then ***'em.

Also I'm proposing equity not equality. Equity means that they are equally viable although not the same.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

The real problem here, @Varicite, is that you talk about fairness and equality across classes, but then you dictate that the only possible solution is to switch to stamina morphs and belittle anyone who disagrees as being selfish.

I have considered the options you've put forth, but I don't find them to be viable. ZOS has flat out said NO to a 3rd resource, and they have also said they are NOT considering a 3 morph system. These are not new ideas.

I'm not the one unwilling to consider your opinion; your opinions have already been shot down before you even voiced them. By the company that develops the game we're both playing.

I bet you didn't know that I pushed extremely hard for ALL skills to scale the way that Ultimates do, but off of your max resource (instead of weapon / spell damage) since 1.3, and ESPECIALLY during 1.6 PTS. That's also not really a new idea, but I didn't bring it up in this thread either.

Know why? Because ZOS doesn't want to do this, so it's a moot point.

Glurin wrote: »

You are completely unwilling to even consider anyone else's opinion, let alone the flaws in your own.

No, but what I AM unwilling to do is sit back and watch a disparate situation and not say anything about it.

Outside of those ideas already contested by ZOS, all I've seen from the other side of this debate is "NO DON'T TOUCH MY STUFF." Okay, that's helpful.

I know full well the "flaws" in the way ZOS is currently handling stamina morphs (lol, I like how you seem to think that I came up w/ this band-aid fix), but that is what we've got. And if we want anything to be done about this SOON, that is what we should probably go w/.

So that's what I'm going w/, as ZOS seems to think that is the best option.

Glurin wrote: »

Equality does not mean everybody has to have the same number of all the same stuff. Balance does not mean stamina should get everything. Fairness does not mean you should get what someone else has just because you want it.

Equality does not mean that only one side has ALL the stuff.
Balance does not mean stamina should get NOTHING.
Fairness does not mean you should get everything just because you've ALWAYS had everything.

Because that is the reality of the situation right now.

Glurin wrote: »

I know you are a min/maxer and that min/maxers tend to have difficulty with the idea of there being more than one effective approach to any given problem, but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others in the manner you have been.

The ideas that you have put forward in this thread were shot down by the devs LONG before this thread was even made. It's okay, my ideas were also shot down by devs.

It's not that I want to dismiss your opinion; I feel that it's a complete waste of energy to even talk about things that are simply not going to happen at any point in the near future.

Instead, I find it more fruitful to talk about changes that might actually be made.

And I don't think it's really fair to stamina Sorcs to just let them languish in inferiority while people argue about the philosophy of things instead of real, tangible, workable solutions that might actually be considered.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The real problem here, @Varicite, is that you talk about fairness and equality across classes, but then you dictate that the only possible solution is to switch to stamina morphs and belittle anyone who disagrees as being selfish.

I have considered the options you've put forth, but I don't find them to be viable. ZOS has flat out said NO to a 3rd resource, and they have also said they are NOT considering a 3 morph system. These are not new ideas.

I'm not the one unwilling to consider your opinion; your opinions have already been shot down before you even voiced them. By the company that develops the game we're both playing.

I bet you didn't know that I pushed extremely hard for ALL skills to scale the way that Ultimates do, but off of your max resource (instead of weapon / spell damage) since 1.3, and ESPECIALLY during 1.6 PTS. That's also not really a new idea, but I didn't bring it up in this thread either.

Know why? Because ZOS doesn't want to do this, so it's a moot point.

Glurin wrote: »

You are completely unwilling to even consider anyone else's opinion, let alone the flaws in your own.

No, but what I AM unwilling to do is sit back and watch a disparate situation and not say anything about it.

Outside of those ideas already contested by ZOS, all I've seen from the other side of this debate is "NO DON'T TOUCH MY STUFF." Okay, that's helpful.

I know full well the "flaws" in the way ZOS is currently handling stamina morphs (lol, I like how you seem to think that I came up w/ this band-aid fix), but that is what we've got. And if we want anything to be done about this SOON, that is what we should probably go w/.

So that's what I'm going w/, as ZOS seems to think that is the best option.

Glurin wrote: »

Equality does not mean everybody has to have the same number of all the same stuff. Balance does not mean stamina should get everything. Fairness does not mean you should get what someone else has just because you want it.

Equality does not mean that only one side has ALL the stuff.
Balance does not mean stamina should get NOTHING.
Fairness does not mean you should get everything just because you've ALWAYS had everything.

Because that is the reality of the situation right now.

Glurin wrote: »

I know you are a min/maxer and that min/maxers tend to have difficulty with the idea of there being more than one effective approach to any given problem, but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others in the manner you have been.

The ideas that you have put forward in this thread were shot down by the devs LONG before this thread was even made. It's okay, my ideas were also shot down by devs.

It's not that I want to dismiss your opinion; I feel that it's a complete waste of energy to even talk about things that are simply not going to happen at any point in the near future.

Instead, I find it more fruitful to talk about changes that might actually be made.

And I don't think it's really fair to stamina Sorcs to just let them languish in inferiority while people argue about the philosophy of things instead of real, tangible, workable solutions that might actually be considered.

No sir. All you are doing is whining about not having stamina options and you don't care how it effects people who are playing the class and enjoying it. Instead of being a child about it, why don't you provide some actual ideas of how the morphs could/should look if they were divvied up between the two. Then maybe you might have less opposition from those of us that don't want our specs (that we worked hard on) destroyed because you want to hijack the class. I have already said that I wouldn't mind giving up streak. It's seems like a good viable stamina based ability. It could cost stamina, the damage could scale off of stamina and it could be used as a great gap closer for stamina based attacks. There I am trying to meet you part way here. Please start acting like an adult come up with some real solutions.

Erock25

Glurin wrote: »

The real problem here, @Varicite, is that you talk about fairness and equality across classes, but then you dictate that the only possible solution is to switch to stamina morphs and belittle anyone who disagrees as being selfish. You are completely unwilling to even consider anyone else's opinion, let alone the flaws in your own.

Equality does not mean everybody has to have the same number of all the same stuff. Balance does not mean stamina should get everything. Fairness does not mean you should get what someone else has just because you want it.

I know you are a min/maxer and that min/maxers tend to have difficulty with the idea of there being more than one effective approach to any given problem, but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others in the manner you have been.

What I want @glurin to understand and anyone else against some stamina options, is that I myself am not asking for a lot of change. What change I'm asking for also ties into tweaks for the entire class and all playstyles. It isn't about giving Sorc an exact equal amount of stam options as NB/DK/Temp, it is about giving the Sorc stam options that allow it to still play and feel like a Sorc in a stamina build. Below is my list of proposed changes from this topic on Sorceror uggestions for overall class balance. I'm listing all of them because yes, certain magicka morphs get changed/removed but other skills make up for it.

The objectives I tried to fulfill in my suggested changes

• Give Magicka DPS builds more utility to a group and raid
• Give Magicka DPS builds a way to increase their damage if they are allowed to reliably stay in melee range
• Give Stamina DPS builds some synergy with their Sorcerer skills
• Give some love to the Healer and Tank Sorc
• Suggest changes that are realistic in concept and require low effort to execute

Power Surge - Duration increased to 40 seconds (to 43 seconds on Rank4). Provides yourself with Minor Prophecy (3% spell crit)

• I think Power Surge has been marginalized by Entropy, especially considering the Mage's Guild - Might of the Guild Passive. The heal component of Surge is now just an ancillary effect in my opinion because of how DOTs activate the cooldown and I believe extended duration is the easiest way to make Power Surge a valid contender to Entropy.

Critical Surge - Cost reduced by 40%. Provides yourself with Major Endurance (+20% stam regen) for 10 seconds.

• Just as Power Surge is marginalized by Entropy, I believe Critical Surge is inferior to the 2h skill Rally. Yes we can access this Major Brutality without using 2h and that is an advantage, but I still think this skill needs more oomph. Currently Critical Surge has a HUGE cost for a stamina build, and a 40% reduction seems fair. Also, Sorc do not have access to any in combat stamina regen and Major Endurance is a great fit here. It is important that this spell does not switch to a stamina morph because I feel it is important that stamina builds have access to magicka dumps that do not scale on spell power/total magicka.

Volatile Familiar - Changed back to instant cast. Increase the melee damage the pet does by 100% (it still isn't much).

• This morph is completely useless without it being instant cast. This should be the second pet (besides Twilight) go to option for a magicka Sorc.

Clannfear - Reduce cast time to 0.5 seconds and change this to a stamina morph.

• My preferred change for this ability may be impossible, but if it is possible, it would add a layer of fun and useful gameplay for a Tank Sorc. I think if you manually command this pet to attack anything (default binding is Y + left click), it should also taunt it regardless of who is on the threat table. This pet has decent HP, but it isn't going to hold up long against most enemies (especially bosses) in group PVE content so it will not be overpowered.

Daedric Prey - Increase the additional pet damage to 50% and refocus all pets to attack this target.

• I do not think using Daedric Prey and Empowered Ward to get the most out of your pets is a useful mechanic. For starters, it means a lot of your skill bar and morph choices need to be dedicated to pets. Also Hardened Ward is a MUST HAVE for any magicka Sorc who wants to PVP and it would be very helpful to be able to spec Hardened Ward instead of Empowered Ward and still get the most out of your pets.

Bound Aegis - Also provides Minor Mending buff (8% healing done increase)

• A small buff that gives Sorc a reason to be a healer.

Empowered Ward - This morph will cost magicka but will now scale on health.

• I think this is important for a stamina Sorc to have a damage shield. The reason we are scaling on health here is so that this skill is stronger for tanks. A stamina build with a stamina scaling shield would be over the top with their ability to dodge roll, break free, block and have more mitigations than a light armor user underneath the damage shield. Keeping this morph as a magicka cost prevents high sustain stamina builds from spamming this spell and scaling it on health instead of magicka ensures that the shield will still be worth using even in a stamina build, which most likely will have close to a minimum in max magicka.

Crystal Blast - Melee range stamina morph that is just like Crystal Frag (minus the knockdown) and procs on activation of any skill that cost stamina. Does slightly less dmg than a magicka build Crystal Frag but also provides the Sorc and his group Minor Brutality (increase weapon damage by 5%) for 5 seconds.

• Provides a dmg stamina morph, keeps the Crystal proc gameplay consistent between builds, while giving the Sorc a minor group buff and Blood Magic heals.

Suppression Field - change the Minor Protection buff to a Major Protection buff.

• This has been nerfed too hard and needs a bit more group utility.

Exploitation Passive - Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Major Prophecy (10% spell crit) to a Sorcerer and his group (important it is group only so multiple Sorc would be needed to keep this running for the entire raid) for 5/10 seconds.

• Gives Sorc a strong reason to be a part of raids and groups.

Daedric Bomb (rename of Daedric Tomb) - Sorcerer places a Daedric Bomb on the ground (double the activation radius of a single mine) which takes 5 seconds to activate and when triggered, explodes for massive damage.

• The damage done here is the real question. It should be powerful because it takes coordination between the group and gives Sorc a reason to be in melee range.

Also Twilight needs to be no more than a 0.5 second cast. Considering that these pets die in some encounters and there is no reason not to reduce the cast time.

Anyways that is my list. What it boils down to is increasing pet damage slightly (Volatile doing more passive dmg), giving magicka Sorc a melee range DPS boost (that shouldn't affect PVP at all), giving useful group buffs to the Sorc that make them must haves for group PVE, and helping out the stam/healer/tank Sorc as well.

I can understand people being concerned that their build will suffer, but you have to understand that we aren't asking for a lot, and it should not be all negatives for a magicka build. I know there are people out there that say they like the current incarnation of Crystal Blast, but to me, Crystal Frag is an essential and class defining skill. Bringing that gameplay over to the stamina build gives Sorcs a reason to use something else besides just endless Wrecking Blows. Pets are a divisive topic, but like it or not, they are a unique part of the Sorc and giving a stamina/tank version of pet to the class helps give it a better identity. Sure, magicka users lose Clannfear but instead they get a higher DPS and instant cast Volatile Familiar. Finally, your pet dying in combat will actually be a good thing as it explodes for massive damage. Pet users lose their +pet dmg from Empowered Ward but gain just about all of it back in a higher buff to pet dmg in Daedric Prey.

Would these changes really be so bad for you that it is worth coming to a topic discussing this concept and complain over and over again?

Varicite

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

No sir. All you are doing is whining about not having stamina options and you don't care how it effects people who are playing the class and enjoying it. Instead of being a child about it, why don't you provide some actual ideas of how the morphs could/should look if they were divvied up between the two. Then maybe you might have less opposition from those of us that don't want our specs (that we worked hard on) destroyed because you want to hijack the class. I have already said that I wouldn't mind giving up streak. It's seems like a good viable stamina based ability. It could cost stamina, the damage could scale off of stamina and it could be used as a great gap closer for stamina based attacks. There I am trying to meet you part way here. Please start acting like an adult come up with some real solutions.

You're right that I don't care very much how it effects the people who have always had everything when it comes to Sorcerer skills, especially when those same people only seem willing to give up the abilities that they consider too subpar to use themselves.

You are not the only ones who have worked hard on your gear and builds. You want to know the difference, though? A stamina build can work even HARDER than you and still never be as good as any other class' stamina builds.

And I know you know the injustice in that, because I remember the Sorc tears when they even THOUGHT they might not be viable as magicka during 1.6 PTS.

I actually only came into this thread because I saw the "Z" tag and was hoping for a real dev response on the matter, but while I was here, what I saw was a bunch of magicka Sorcs bullying anybody who wanted a damage skill morph changed to stamina, just like has been done w/ every other class.

I'm not going to be bullied or brow-beaten, so you can continue calling me names, insulting me, and trying to gang up on me or whatever other tactics you are used to using. I'm going to stick to the topic at hand, which is the lack of sorcerer stamina morphs.

This thread, in a nutshell:

"Hey, how about Encase as a stam morph?" Ignored.
"Well, nobody really uses Crystal Blast for most things" "OMG NO, TWO GUYS USE THIS"
"Um, okay, well how about one of the Ward morphs?" "Eff that noise, would be OP"
"...maybe scaling off of health?" *crickets*

Followed by sentiments like:

"Sorcs are MAGES, you should reroll." "You just want to shoot lightning as well as a magicka sorc"

YOU didn't even suggest giving up Streak, you were opposed to the idea until another poster suggested giving you BOTH Streak AND BoL in a single ability. That's like being against something until someone pays you a million dollars, and then you're on board... <.<

But I digress. Let's try to play nicely for a bit, because there are more important things at hand.

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

No sir. All you are doing is whining about not having stamina options and you don't care how it effects people who are playing the class and enjoying it. Instead of being a child about it, why don't you provide some actual ideas of how the morphs could/should look if they were divvied up between the two. Then maybe you might have less opposition from those of us that don't want our specs (that we worked hard on) destroyed because you want to hijack the class. I have already said that I wouldn't mind giving up streak. It's seems like a good viable stamina based ability. It could cost stamina, the damage could scale off of stamina and it could be used as a great gap closer for stamina based attacks. There I am trying to meet you part way here. Please start acting like an adult come up with some real solutions.

You're right that I don't care very much how it effects the people who have always had everything when it comes to Sorcerer skills, especially when those same people only seem willing to give up the abilities that they consider too subpar to use themselves.

You mean like Crystal Blast? "Completely useless. Fragments has far superior single target DPS so lets just get rid of Blast and give it to stamina." Yeah, you're real charitable.

You act like stamina sorcerers have nothing at all and just run around yelling insults because that's all they can do until we cut magicka sorcerers in half and give one part to stamina. You're not even considering tweaking skills to be more friendly to them without sacrificing diversity. All you're in favor of is the ham fisted approach of swapping resource pools and not even paying any attention to what that would do to the balance of not just the class itself, but the game as a whole. And so far your only justification for this has been "well the other classes had it done" or "but stamina can't be used to cast magicka based spells right now".

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

You mean like Crystal Blast? "Completely useless. Fragments has far superior single target DPS so lets just get rid of Blast and give it to stamina." Yeah, you're real charitable.

I forgot that was totally my idea that I kept pushing for. OWAIT, it wasn't, and I haven't even mentioned it except for my very last post.

Seems like a bit of misplaced animosity here. And even so, it's pretty well known that Crystal Blast is the lesser used morph in both PvE and PvP. I don't see why anyone would even argue about that.

Glurin wrote: »

You act like stamina sorcerers have nothing at all and just run around yelling insults because that's all they can do until we cut magicka sorcerers in half and give one part to stamina.

Actually, I act like magicka sorcs can stand to give up 1-2 morphs of existing abilities, or rework some. That's not even remotely close to "cutting magicka sorcerers in half".

Glurin wrote: »

All you're in favor of is the ham fisted approach of swapping resource pools and not even paying any attention to what that would do to the balance of not just the class itself, but the game as a whole.

Again, that's not my approach, but that IS the approach that is most likely to be used by ZOS. So yes, that's what I'd rather pursue, because I feel that's the most likely approach to actually be considered.

If you're upset that I don't find "well, just make the magicka utility abilities cost less to use, but don't give them any damaging abilities" to be a valid change to bring Stam sorcs in line w/ the other classes' stamina builds, then... well, I'm sorry that upsets you.

But I don't find that to be nearly enough to bridge the gap between Sorcs and other classes.

And let's be honest, that suggestion is extremely self-serving.

Sure, it would make it so Stam Sorcs could use some of the magicka-based utility spells a couple more times before running dry, but it also means that Magicka Sorcs could pretty much never worry about the cost of these abilities again.

It also does absolutely nothing to help Stam Sorc dps, or stamina sustain for Stam Sorcs, or really anything that matters to a Stam Sorc. Most don't even use Surge, and the only ability WORTH using for a Stamina Sorc right now doesn't really cost Magicka.. It's a toggle.

But sure, my Sorc will take a really cheap to cast Surge, why not?

Glurin wrote: »

And so far your only justification for this has been "well the other classes had it done"

Strange, I thought it was "Stamina Sorcs are behind every other class by a noticeable margin due to the lack of available stamina morphs for the class."

I find it very interesting that your ONE other supporter swears to me that there are Stamina Sorc builds that are comparable to what other classes are accomplishing on live, and yet fails to produce even a single one.

/shrug

Cathexis

Just throwing around more suggestions, why not just make the summoning tree stamina based? It needs to be overhauled anyway. Obv I don't decide what it would look like but just throwing examples out there:

Ultimate > Summon Attronach (Random Element) -- Permanent pet until slain
Morph 1 > Stam/Magicka Regen Aura
Morph 2 > AoE Spell

Skill 1 > Enslave Daedra -- Allows player to enslave any daedra type monster if targetted, if not targetting summons/unsummons, costs 5% max magicka and x stamina
Morph 1 > Daedric Protection -- Allows 2 Daedra at once
Morph 2 > Charging Daedra -- Gives charge ability to summoned daedra

Skill 2 > Summon Portal -- Allows player to summon an exit portal on first press, and then recalls the player to that portal on second press, costs 5% max magicka and x stamina, 3 second cast to recall
Morph 1 > Bidirectional Portal -- Second press summons an exit portal which can be used bi-directionally by all players
Morph 2 > Fast Recall -- Recall time is 1 second

Skill 3 > Summoned Weapon -- Toggle ability, enhances players regular weapon attacks with stamina drain, costs 5% max magicka and x stamina
Morph 1 > Rapid Enhancement -- Regular attacks now fire as 3 rapid attacks doing 66% of regular damage
Morph 2 > Magical Rush -- Spell becomes a casted AoE that enhances all players in 7 meters with stamina draining weapons

Skill 4 > Ward (Base Remains the Same)
Morph 1 > Hardened Ward (Remains the same)
Morph 2 > Channelled Ward -- Ward becomes a channelled ability that regenerates stamina at an increased rate but drains 3% mana every time the player is hit. Ward absorbs all incoming damage.



Obv doesnt have to be this, but summoning really needs an overhaul, it might be a good opportunity to build up a stamina builds for sorcs.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The real problem here, @Varicite, is that you talk about fairness and equality across classes, but then you dictate that the only possible solution is to switch to stamina morphs and belittle anyone who disagrees as being selfish. You are completely unwilling to even consider anyone else's opinion, let alone the flaws in your own.

Equality does not mean everybody has to have the same number of all the same stuff. Balance does not mean stamina should get everything. Fairness does not mean you should get what someone else has just because you want it.

I know you are a min/maxer and that min/maxers tend to have difficulty with the idea of there being more than one effective approach to any given problem, but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others in the manner you have been.

What I want @glurin to understand and anyone else against some stamina options, is that I myself am not asking for a lot of change. What change I'm asking for also ties into tweaks for the entire class and all playstyles. It isn't about giving Sorc an exact equal amount of stam options as NB/DK/Temp, it is about giving the Sorc stam options that allow it to still play and feel like a Sorc in a stamina build. Below is my list of proposed changes from this topic on Sorceror uggestions for overall class balance. I'm listing all of them because yes, certain magicka morphs get changed/removed but other skills make up for it.

The objectives I tried to fulfill in my suggested changes

• Give Magicka DPS builds more utility to a group and raid
• Give Magicka DPS builds a way to increase their damage if they are allowed to reliably stay in melee range
• Give Stamina DPS builds some synergy with their Sorcerer skills
• Give some love to the Healer and Tank Sorc
• Suggest changes that are realistic in concept and require low effort to execute

Power Surge - Duration increased to 40 seconds (to 43 seconds on Rank4). Provides yourself with Minor Prophecy (3% spell crit)

• I think Power Surge has been marginalized by Entropy, especially considering the Mage's Guild - Might of the Guild Passive. The heal component of Surge is now just an ancillary effect in my opinion because of how DOTs activate the cooldown and I believe extended duration is the easiest way to make Power Surge a valid contender to Entropy.

Critical Surge - Cost reduced by 40%. Provides yourself with Major Endurance (+20% stam regen) for 10 seconds.

• Just as Power Surge is marginalized by Entropy, I believe Critical Surge is inferior to the 2h skill Rally. Yes we can access this Major Brutality without using 2h and that is an advantage, but I still think this skill needs more oomph. Currently Critical Surge has a HUGE cost for a stamina build, and a 40% reduction seems fair. Also, Sorc do not have access to any in combat stamina regen and Major Endurance is a great fit here. It is important that this spell does not switch to a stamina morph because I feel it is important that stamina builds have access to magicka dumps that do not scale on spell power/total magicka.

Volatile Familiar - Changed back to instant cast. Increase the melee damage the pet does by 100% (it still isn't much).

• This morph is completely useless without it being instant cast. This should be the second pet (besides Twilight) go to option for a magicka Sorc.

Clannfear - Reduce cast time to 0.5 seconds and change this to a stamina morph.

• My preferred change for this ability may be impossible, but if it is possible, it would add a layer of fun and useful gameplay for a Tank Sorc. I think if you manually command this pet to attack anything (default binding is Y + left click), it should also taunt it regardless of who is on the threat table. This pet has decent HP, but it isn't going to hold up long against most enemies (especially bosses) in group PVE content so it will not be overpowered.

Daedric Prey - Increase the additional pet damage to 50% and refocus all pets to attack this target.

• I do not think using Daedric Prey and Empowered Ward to get the most out of your pets is a useful mechanic. For starters, it means a lot of your skill bar and morph choices need to be dedicated to pets. Also Hardened Ward is a MUST HAVE for any magicka Sorc who wants to PVP and it would be very helpful to be able to spec Hardened Ward instead of Empowered Ward and still get the most out of your pets.

Bound Aegis - Also provides Minor Mending buff (8% healing done increase)

• A small buff that gives Sorc a reason to be a healer.

Empowered Ward - This morph will cost magicka but will now scale on health.

• I think this is important for a stamina Sorc to have a damage shield. The reason we are scaling on health here is so that this skill is stronger for tanks. A stamina build with a stamina scaling shield would be over the top with their ability to dodge roll, break free, block and have more mitigations than a light armor user underneath the damage shield. Keeping this morph as a magicka cost prevents high sustain stamina builds from spamming this spell and scaling it on health instead of magicka ensures that the shield will still be worth using even in a stamina build, which most likely will have close to a minimum in max magicka.

Crystal Blast - Melee range stamina morph that is just like Crystal Frag (minus the knockdown) and procs on activation of any skill that cost stamina. Does slightly less dmg than a magicka build Crystal Frag but also provides the Sorc and his group Minor Brutality (increase weapon damage by 5%) for 5 seconds.

• Provides a dmg stamina morph, keeps the Crystal proc gameplay consistent between builds, while giving the Sorc a minor group buff and Dark Deal heals.

Suppression Field - change the Minor Protection buff to a Major Protection buff.

• This has been nerfed too hard and needs a bit more group utility.

Exploitation Passive - Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Major Prophecy (10% spell crit) to a Sorcerer and his group (important it is group only so multiple Sorc would be needed to keep this running for the entire raid) for 5/10 seconds.

• Gives Sorc a strong reason to be a part of raids and groups.

Daedric Bomb (rename of Daedric Tomb) - Sorcerer places a Daedric Bomb on the ground (double the activation radius of a single mine) which takes 5 seconds to activate and when triggered, explodes for massive damage.

• The damage done here is the real question. It should be powerful because it takes coordination between the group and gives Sorc a reason to be in melee range.

Also Twilight needs to be no more than a 0.5 second cast. Considering that these pets die in some encounters and there is no reason not to reduce the cast time.

Anyways that is my list. What it boils down to is increasing pet damage slightly (Volatile doing more passive dmg), giving magicka Sorc a melee range DPS boost (that shouldn't affect PVP at all), giving useful group buffs to the Sorc that make them must haves for group PVE, and helping out the stam/healer/tank Sorc as well.

I can understand people being concerned that their build will suffer, but you have to understand that we aren't asking for a lot, and it should not be all negatives for a magicka build. I know there are people out there that say they like the current incarnation of Crystal Blast, but to me, Crystal Frag is an essential and class defining skill. Bringing that gameplay over to the stamina build gives Sorcs a reason to use something else besides just endless Wrecking Blows. Pets are a divisive topic, but like it or not, they are a unique part of the Sorc and giving a stamina/tank version of pet to the class helps give it a better identity. Sure, magicka users lose Clannfear but instead they get a higher DPS and instant cast Volatile Familiar. Finally, your pet dying in combat will actually be a good thing as it explodes for massive damage. Pet users lose their +pet dmg from Empowered Ward but gain just about all of it back in a higher buff to pet dmg in Daedric Prey.

Would these changes really be so bad for you that it is worth coming to a topic discussing this concept and complain over and over again?

I can't see any immediate problems with those suggestions. None of them would severely hinder or even effect my own build.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

No sir. All you are doing is whining about not having stamina options and you don't care how it effects people who are playing the class and enjoying it. Instead of being a child about it, why don't you provide some actual ideas of how the morphs could/should look if they were divvied up between the two. Then maybe you might have less opposition from those of us that don't want our specs (that we worked hard on) destroyed because you want to hijack the class. I have already said that I wouldn't mind giving up streak. It's seems like a good viable stamina based ability. It could cost stamina, the damage could scale off of stamina and it could be used as a great gap closer for stamina based attacks. There I am trying to meet you part way here. Please start acting like an adult come up with some real solutions.

You're right that I don't care very much how it effects the people who have always had everything when it comes to Sorcerer skills, especially when those same people only seem willing to give up the abilities that they consider too subpar to use themselves.

You are not the only ones who have worked hard on your gear and builds. You want to know the difference, though? A stamina build can work even HARDER than you and still never be as good as any other class' stamina builds.

And I know you know the injustice in that, because I remember the Sorc tears when they even THOUGHT they might not be viable as magicka during 1.6 PTS.

I actually only came into this thread because I saw the "Z" tag and was hoping for a real dev response on the matter, but while I was here, what I saw was a bunch of magicka Sorcs bullying anybody who wanted a damage skill morph changed to stamina, just like has been done w/ every other class.

I'm not going to be bullied or brow-beaten, so you can continue calling me names, insulting me, and trying to gang up on me or whatever other tactics you are used to using. I'm going to stick to the topic at hand, which is the lack of sorcerer stamina morphs.

This thread, in a nutshell:

"Hey, how about Encase as a stam morph?" Ignored.
"Well, nobody really uses Crystal Blast for most things" "OMG NO, TWO GUYS USE THIS"
"Um, okay, well how about one of the Ward morphs?" "Eff that noise, would be OP"
"...maybe scaling off of health?" *crickets*

Followed by sentiments like:

"Sorcs are MAGES, you should reroll." "You just want to shoot lightning as well as a magicka sorc"

YOU didn't even suggest giving up Streak, you were opposed to the idea until another poster suggested giving you BOTH Streak AND BoL in a single ability. That's like being against something until someone pays you a million dollars, and then you're on board... <.<

But I digress. Let's try to play nicely for a bit, because there are more important things at hand.

Do you see the difference between your post and @Erock25 ? Yours is just a wall of complaints. He actually posted useful alternatives for things that aren't used much anyway. It's a great way to utilize neglected sorcerer abilities and also grant some actual boons to the stamina sorc. That's the difference between being a child, and having an intelligent discussion.

Varicite

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

No sir. All you are doing is whining about not having stamina options and you don't care how it effects people who are playing the class and enjoying it. Instead of being a child about it, why don't you provide some actual ideas of how the morphs could/should look if they were divvied up between the two. Then maybe you might have less opposition from those of us that don't want our specs (that we worked hard on) destroyed because you want to hijack the class. I have already said that I wouldn't mind giving up streak. It's seems like a good viable stamina based ability. It could cost stamina, the damage could scale off of stamina and it could be used as a great gap closer for stamina based attacks. There I am trying to meet you part way here. Please start acting like an adult come up with some real solutions.

You're right that I don't care very much how it effects the people who have always had everything when it comes to Sorcerer skills, especially when those same people only seem willing to give up the abilities that they consider too subpar to use themselves.

You are not the only ones who have worked hard on your gear and builds. You want to know the difference, though? A stamina build can work even HARDER than you and still never be as good as any other class' stamina builds.

And I know you know the injustice in that, because I remember the Sorc tears when they even THOUGHT they might not be viable as magicka during 1.6 PTS.

I actually only came into this thread because I saw the "Z" tag and was hoping for a real dev response on the matter, but while I was here, what I saw was a bunch of magicka Sorcs bullying anybody who wanted a damage skill morph changed to stamina, just like has been done w/ every other class.

I'm not going to be bullied or brow-beaten, so you can continue calling me names, insulting me, and trying to gang up on me or whatever other tactics you are used to using. I'm going to stick to the topic at hand, which is the lack of sorcerer stamina morphs.

This thread, in a nutshell:

"Hey, how about Encase as a stam morph?" Ignored.
"Well, nobody really uses Crystal Blast for most things" "OMG NO, TWO GUYS USE THIS"
"Um, okay, well how about one of the Ward morphs?" "Eff that noise, would be OP"
"...maybe scaling off of health?" *crickets*

Followed by sentiments like:

"Sorcs are MAGES, you should reroll." "You just want to shoot lightning as well as a magicka sorc"

YOU didn't even suggest giving up Streak, you were opposed to the idea until another poster suggested giving you BOTH Streak AND BoL in a single ability. That's like being against something until someone pays you a million dollars, and then you're on board... <.<

But I digress. Let's try to play nicely for a bit, because there are more important things at hand.

Do you see the difference between your post and @Erock25 ? Yours is just a wall of complaints. He actually posted useful alternatives for things that aren't used much anyway. It's a great way to utilize neglected sorcerer abilities and also grant some actual boons to the stamina sorc. That's the difference between being a child, and having an intelligent discussion.

I tend to reply in kind.

/shrug

Anyhow, I'm going to leave this discussion for a while, as I don't feel that I'm adding anything that hasn't already been said, and my presence here is detracting from posters who have good suggestions.

Glurin

Erock25 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

The real problem here, @Varicite, is that you talk about fairness and equality across classes, but then you dictate that the only possible solution is to switch to stamina morphs and belittle anyone who disagrees as being selfish. You are completely unwilling to even consider anyone else's opinion, let alone the flaws in your own.

Equality does not mean everybody has to have the same number of all the same stuff. Balance does not mean stamina should get everything. Fairness does not mean you should get what someone else has just because you want it.

I know you are a min/maxer and that min/maxers tend to have difficulty with the idea of there being more than one effective approach to any given problem, but that doesn't give you the right to dismiss the opinions of others in the manner you have been.

What I want @glurin to understand and anyone else against some stamina options, is that I myself am not asking for a lot of change. What change I'm asking for also ties into tweaks for the entire class and all playstyles. It isn't about giving Sorc an exact equal amount of stam options as NB/DK/Temp, it is about giving the Sorc stam options that allow it to still play and feel like a Sorc in a stamina build. Below is my list of proposed changes from this topic on Sorceror uggestions for overall class balance. I'm listing all of them because yes, certain magicka morphs get changed/removed but other skills make up for it.

The objectives I tried to fulfill in my suggested changes

• Give Magicka DPS builds more utility to a group and raid
• Give Magicka DPS builds a way to increase their damage if they are allowed to reliably stay in melee range
• Give Stamina DPS builds some synergy with their Sorcerer skills
• Give some love to the Healer and Tank Sorc
• Suggest changes that are realistic in concept and require low effort to execute

Power Surge - Duration increased to 40 seconds (to 43 seconds on Rank4). Provides yourself with Minor Prophecy (3% spell crit)

• I think Power Surge has been marginalized by Entropy, especially considering the Mage's Guild - Might of the Guild Passive. The heal component of Surge is now just an ancillary effect in my opinion because of how DOTs activate the cooldown and I believe extended duration is the easiest way to make Power Surge a valid contender to Entropy.

Critical Surge - Cost reduced by 40%. Provides yourself with Major Endurance (+20% stam regen) for 10 seconds.

• Just as Power Surge is marginalized by Entropy, I believe Critical Surge is inferior to the 2h skill Rally. Yes we can access this Major Brutality without using 2h and that is an advantage, but I still think this skill needs more oomph. Currently Critical Surge has a HUGE cost for a stamina build, and a 40% reduction seems fair. Also, Sorc do not have access to any in combat stamina regen and Major Endurance is a great fit here. It is important that this spell does not switch to a stamina morph because I feel it is important that stamina builds have access to magicka dumps that do not scale on spell power/total magicka.

Volatile Familiar - Changed back to instant cast. Increase the melee damage the pet does by 100% (it still isn't much).

• This morph is completely useless without it being instant cast. This should be the second pet (besides Twilight) go to option for a magicka Sorc.

Clannfear - Reduce cast time to 0.5 seconds and change this to a stamina morph.

• My preferred change for this ability may be impossible, but if it is possible, it would add a layer of fun and useful gameplay for a Tank Sorc. I think if you manually command this pet to attack anything (default binding is Y + left click), it should also taunt it regardless of who is on the threat table. This pet has decent HP, but it isn't going to hold up long against most enemies (especially bosses) in group PVE content so it will not be overpowered.

Daedric Prey - Increase the additional pet damage to 50% and refocus all pets to attack this target.

• I do not think using Daedric Prey and Empowered Ward to get the most out of your pets is a useful mechanic. For starters, it means a lot of your skill bar and morph choices need to be dedicated to pets. Also Hardened Ward is a MUST HAVE for any magicka Sorc who wants to PVP and it would be very helpful to be able to spec Hardened Ward instead of Empowered Ward and still get the most out of your pets.

Bound Aegis - Also provides Minor Mending buff (8% healing done increase)

• A small buff that gives Sorc a reason to be a healer.

Empowered Ward - This morph will cost magicka but will now scale on health.

• I think this is important for a stamina Sorc to have a damage shield. The reason we are scaling on health here is so that this skill is stronger for tanks. A stamina build with a stamina scaling shield would be over the top with their ability to dodge roll, break free, block and have more mitigations than a light armor user underneath the damage shield. Keeping this morph as a magicka cost prevents high sustain stamina builds from spamming this spell and scaling it on health instead of magicka ensures that the shield will still be worth using even in a stamina build, which most likely will have close to a minimum in max magicka.

Crystal Blast - Melee range stamina morph that is just like Crystal Frag (minus the knockdown) and procs on activation of any skill that cost stamina. Does slightly less dmg than a magicka build Crystal Frag but also provides the Sorc and his group Minor Brutality (increase weapon damage by 5%) for 5 seconds.

• Provides a dmg stamina morph, keeps the Crystal proc gameplay consistent between builds, while giving the Sorc a minor group buff and Dark Deal heals.

Suppression Field - change the Minor Protection buff to a Major Protection buff.

• This has been nerfed too hard and needs a bit more group utility.

Exploitation Passive - Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Major Prophecy (10% spell crit) to a Sorcerer and his group (important it is group only so multiple Sorc would be needed to keep this running for the entire raid) for 5/10 seconds.

• Gives Sorc a strong reason to be a part of raids and groups.

Daedric Bomb (rename of Daedric Tomb) - Sorcerer places a Daedric Bomb on the ground (double the activation radius of a single mine) which takes 5 seconds to activate and when triggered, explodes for massive damage.

• The damage done here is the real question. It should be powerful because it takes coordination between the group and gives Sorc a reason to be in melee range.

Also Twilight needs to be no more than a 0.5 second cast. Considering that these pets die in some encounters and there is no reason not to reduce the cast time.

Anyways that is my list. What it boils down to is increasing pet damage slightly (Volatile doing more passive dmg), giving magicka Sorc a melee range DPS boost (that shouldn't affect PVP at all), giving useful group buffs to the Sorc that make them must haves for group PVE, and helping out the stam/healer/tank Sorc as well.

I can understand people being concerned that their build will suffer, but you have to understand that we aren't asking for a lot, and it should not be all negatives for a magicka build. I know there are people out there that say they like the current incarnation of Crystal Blast, but to me, Crystal Frag is an essential and class defining skill. Bringing that gameplay over to the stamina build gives Sorcs a reason to use something else besides just endless Wrecking Blows. Pets are a divisive topic, but like it or not, they are a unique part of the Sorc and giving a stamina/tank version of pet to the class helps give it a better identity. Sure, magicka users lose Clannfear but instead they get a higher DPS and instant cast Volatile Familiar. Finally, your pet dying in combat will actually be a good thing as it explodes for massive damage. Pet users lose their +pet dmg from Empowered Ward but gain just about all of it back in a higher buff to pet dmg in Daedric Prey.

Would these changes really be so bad for you that it is worth coming to a topic discussing this concept and complain over and over again?

Crystal Blast is fine as is. Switching it to stamina and redesigning it to work just like Fragments in melee range just wrecks it for magicka and hybrids while giving stamina a redundant DPS spam ability. Also, as far as I'm concerned, that random instant cast is toxic. Even with a full stamina build, I wouldn't use it because of that. Also, it already provides a group buff with the passive Exploitation. It might be better to put a weapon buff on that rather than Crystal Blast, which would as a side effect also open up every other Dark Magic skill.

A tank pet on the squishy builds makes more sense than a tank pet on the tanky builds.

It looks to me like you're arguing from a min/max perspective as well. Adjusting the game within that framework is what leads to necessary cookie cutter builds, not balance.

Varicite

(sorry, couldn't resist)

If anything is given to Stamina Sorcs, it should probably be something more functional than just another DPS spam ability.

Perhaps something that could provide the major armor reduction debuff, or a stamina regeneration effect? Either of these would both serve Stam Sorcs well, as they have access to neither while wielding the traditional stam-based DPS weapons (S&B not included here).

Maybe a stamina morph of Encase that provides an conal AoE debuff in addition to the root?

And to be completely honest, I do like the idea of a Streak stamina morph to provide a functional gap closer AND escape, which would make it more useful than the traditional Crit Rush.

As long as the damage remains low, it wouldn't outclass the 2H gap closer completely, and you could even add in the debuff to make it cost 50% more so that it won't be spammed too much along w/ dodge rolls? I'm not sure on this, it would probably need a bit of work.