Sorcerer - Lack of stamina morphs

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

I don't see the problem because it's not a problem at all.

/shrug

The REAL problem is that Sorcerers are pigeon-holed into ONLY being magicka builds in a game that was marketed as having flexible classes.

Sorcerer is the only class that is this inflexible.

I don't care if you see it as "omg, you are taking away 1-2 of my possible morphs", because in fact, YOU are the one being greedy here by continuing to force an ENTIRE CLASS to play YOUR way.

You have literally every morph of every single damage skill that Sorcs have, and you are too selfish to let stamina builds even have one? And have the audacity to lash out at other players and call them "greedy"?

What rubbish.

Nothing stopping you from stacking stamina as a sorcerer. What you're complaining about is that if you do that then you can't shoot lightning as good as magicka sorcerers. You're not supposed to. That's kind of the whole premise behind mages and warriors to begin with, not to mention the balance issues. There are quite a few utility skills to choose from that don't really care how big your magicka pool is btw.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I don't see the problem because it's not a problem at all.

/shrug

The REAL problem is that Sorcerers are pigeon-holed into ONLY being magicka builds in a game that was marketed as having flexible classes.

Sorcerer is the only class that is this inflexible.

I don't care if you see it as "omg, you are taking away 1-2 of my possible morphs", because in fact, YOU are the one being greedy here by continuing to force an ENTIRE CLASS to play YOUR way.

You have literally every morph of every single damage skill that Sorcs have, and you are too selfish to let stamina builds even have one? And have the audacity to lash out at other players and call them "greedy"?

What rubbish.

Nothing stopping you from stacking stamina as a sorcerer. What you're complaining about is that if you do that then you can't shoot lightning as good as magicka sorcerers. You're not supposed to. That's kind of the whole premise behind mages and warriors to begin with, not to mention the balance issues. There are quite a few utility skills to choose from that don't really care how big your magicka pool is btw.

That's not what I'm complaining about at all. That's just some nonsense you just made up right now.

There are no "mages" and "warriors" classes. Sorcerer does not make you a mage, just like Nightblade does not make you a rogue, and DK does not make you a tank. These are simply ONE archetype that you can play if you choose that class, but you can just as easily be a NB healer or tank, DK mage, or Templar rogue.

The issue is that w/ the addition of stamina morphs to the classes, Sorcerers are left in a position where they are the only class that is still pigeon-holed into certain playstyles.

Yes, I can be a stamina Sorc, but there is nothing in the Sorc skill lines to USE as a stamina DPS. Every single damaging ability scales from Magicka, every one of them. No other class has this problem.

It is a class disparity issue, plain and simple.

Jar_Ek

In addition, most of the utility abilities have a high magicka cost and if they scale, they scale off magicka. This means that they are of limited use for stamina builds... and no options are provided to support stamina builds.

byrom101b16_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Umbranox wrote: »

I think the issues with Sorcerer revolve around the lack of combat healing like other classes have. We've got:

Dark Exchange - Lovely ability and the changes are great, but it still requires leaving one's self completely vulnerable. The only defense stamina sorcs have while using it is Immovable or Bone Wall, which still leave someone open for quite a while. Very clunky.
Surge - Was perhaps a tad OP, but the cooldown is horrendous. It's the only reliable combat heal for stamina sorcs, so the negative synergy essentially forces stamina sorcs to give up AoEs and DoTs entirely for fear of getting weak heals.
Blood Magic - I've never been able to get any significant healing out of this.

My suggestions are as follows:

Remove the cooldown on Surge. Reduce the overall healing from Surge, and possibly make it apply to every attack instead of just critical hits. This would make it more like a Nightblade's Siphoning Strikes - reliable but reasonable.

Increase the healing from Blood Magic. This would make magicka Sorcs quite a bit more hardy, so a decrease in the strength of Conjured Ward would be in order. This is something people are calling for anyway.

Blood Magic is already healing for 8% and is very nice. THe problem for stam Sorc is that there is no Dark Magic spell they should be using so they completely miss this self heal. That is why a stam morph for Crystal Blast makes the most sense.

It's hilarious watching you try to justify getting a stamina version of the heaviest spike damaging range instant spell in the game because you want the heal!!??

Not because it would make you Godmode OP in PvP because weapon damage stacks that much higher... no, not that!

You are transparent....

Maybe you should go read what I suggested for Crystal Blast turning into a stamina morph. Not ranged and not high damage. What I suggest is actually one of those skills that in PVP people may not use because another Wrecking Blow would have been better. You really need to calm down.

More smoke and mirrors - lower damage means less heal on a % calculation - so the heal would be marginal to useless.

Why ask for a low damage melee range skill that uses stamina better spent on wrecking blow?

You want to make useless stamina morphs out of a useless magicka morph do you?

Highly unlikely...

You want the key PvP build magicka skills turned into stamina skills, and the same cherry picked skills are called for repeatedly on these forums, and not just by you.

Blood magic is a flat %, regardless if you snare an enemy with rune or drop a negate, or even hit an entire zerg with a full mine field. 8% is 8%.

8% of a lower damage morph means a lower heal...

... Negate doesn't do damage so is irrelevant to the topic...

... Rune isn't Dark magic so is also irrelevant to the topic...

What was your point?

No. No it doesn't.

It's not a percentage of your damage done, it's a percentage of your TOTAL HEALTH. 8% of your total health is ALWAYS 8% of your total health, regardless of whether you hit them w/ Restraining Prison or Crystal Frag.

You don't need to do ANY damage at all to proc the passive.

....why are you so outspoken about things you do not understand? o.O

I mean, you have NEVER needed to do any damage for the passive to work, even before 1.6... So you basically just never had any idea what the passive did. : /

You are 100% correct of course, and I will refrain in future from commenting on issues I know better about in low caffeine moments.

I even thought at the time you were referring to the Mages Guild Rune gtaoe trap, so just goes to show - low caffeine = bad. lol

byrom101b16_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

I don't see the problem because it's not a problem at all.

/shrug

The REAL problem is that Sorcerers are pigeon-holed into ONLY being magicka builds in a game that was marketed as having flexible classes.

Sorcerer is the only class that is this inflexible.

I don't care if you see it as "omg, you are taking away 1-2 of my possible morphs", because in fact, YOU are the one being greedy here by continuing to force an ENTIRE CLASS to play YOUR way.

You have literally every morph of every single damage skill that Sorcs have, and you are too selfish to let stamina builds even have one? And have the audacity to lash out at other players and call them "greedy"?

What rubbish.

FORCED to remain the same to suit some...

FORCED to change to suit some...

I may sit firmly on the magicka side of the argument personally, but using the word forced works both ways.

Additionally, the time invested in magicka builds as this has always been the class skill resource - you can't get that back. So forced change means a loss of investment for some, with forced 'remain the same' takes nothing but potential away from some.

In addition, the some who want change want it despite knowing the bias of the class skills to-date. Some 1.6 changes have interfered with weapon sorcs and healers - but you seem only interested in weapons sorcs.

The acrimony and 'taking sides' in this debate has been built on an assumption widely made and illogically supported as 'the only way' - that there can only ever be two morphs and one will have to change.

Both sides should demand a three morph system - it's the only way to give everyone some version of what they want without taking a measure of it from the other side of the argument.

Varicite

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I don't see the problem because it's not a problem at all.

/shrug

The REAL problem is that Sorcerers are pigeon-holed into ONLY being magicka builds in a game that was marketed as having flexible classes.

Sorcerer is the only class that is this inflexible.

I don't care if you see it as "omg, you are taking away 1-2 of my possible morphs", because in fact, YOU are the one being greedy here by continuing to force an ENTIRE CLASS to play YOUR way.

You have literally every morph of every single damage skill that Sorcs have, and you are too selfish to let stamina builds even have one? And have the audacity to lash out at other players and call them "greedy"?

What rubbish.

FORCED to remain the same to suit some...

FORCED to change to suit some...

I may sit firmly on the magicka side of the argument personally, but using the word forced works both ways.

Additionally, the time invested in magicka builds as this has always been the class skill resource - you can't get that back. So forced change means a loss of investment for some, with forced 'remain the same' takes nothing but potential away from some.

In addition, the some who want change want it despite knowing the bias of the class skills to-date. Some 1.6 changes have interfered with weapon sorcs and healers - but you seem only interested in weapons sorcs.

The acrimony and 'taking sides' in this debate has been built on an assumption widely made and illogically supported as 'the only way' - that there can only ever be two morphs and one will have to change.

Both sides should demand a three morph system - it's the only way to give everyone some version of what they want without taking a measure of it from the other side of the argument.

ZOS isn't going to go to a three morph system, not at any point in the near future.

Also, there's no point in talking about this whole "bias on class skills" stuff, as EVERY SINGLE CLASS was biased toward Magicka for an entire year. Sorcerers are not some special snowflake in this regard. They are just the last to adopt balance.

Just because your class is called Sorcerer does NOT mean that every damaging ability must remain Magicka-only forever. That's ludicrous.

Here's a story:

Billy and Johnny are hanging out, and they both enjoy apples. Billy has 20 apples, but Johnny has no apples.

After a while, Billy gets hungry, so he eats a few of his apples and is stuffed, so he sets his bag of apples down.

Johnny also gets hungry, and asks Billy if he can have just 1 apple. They are friends, after all.

"NO, GET THE *** OFF MY APPLES YOU PIECE OF ***!", Billy exclaims, adding that instead of asking for an apple, he should go grow himself a mango tree and eat one of those.

Billy storms off, calling Johnny a loser for even THINKING he should have an apple at all. What a dork.

You don't have to be Billy.

/shrug

Erock25

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I don't see the problem because it's not a problem at all.

/shrug

The REAL problem is that Sorcerers are pigeon-holed into ONLY being magicka builds in a game that was marketed as having flexible classes.

Sorcerer is the only class that is this inflexible.

I don't care if you see it as "omg, you are taking away 1-2 of my possible morphs", because in fact, YOU are the one being greedy here by continuing to force an ENTIRE CLASS to play YOUR way.

You have literally every morph of every single damage skill that Sorcs have, and you are too selfish to let stamina builds even have one? And have the audacity to lash out at other players and call them "greedy"?

What rubbish.

FORCED to remain the same to suit some...

FORCED to change to suit some...

I may sit firmly on the magicka side of the argument personally, but using the word forced works both ways.

Additionally, the time invested in magicka builds as this has always been the class skill resource - you can't get that back. So forced change means a loss of investment for some, with forced 'remain the same' takes nothing but potential away from some.

In addition, the some who want change want it despite knowing the bias of the class skills to-date. Some 1.6 changes have interfered with weapon sorcs and healers - but you seem only interested in weapons sorcs.

The acrimony and 'taking sides' in this debate has been built on an assumption widely made and illogically supported as 'the only way' - that there can only ever be two morphs and one will have to change.

Both sides should demand a three morph system - it's the only way to give everyone some version of what they want without taking a measure of it from the other side of the argument.

I don't think anyone dislikes the idea of three morphs. I just don't see it happening. I was hoping they'd add stamina morphs sooner rather than later but who knows now with the stamina morphs confirmed to not be coming until well after console release. Maybe they are taking so long because they are switching to a three morph system which would be great. What I personally think would be fair, is to add a stamina morph or two in the mean time until that happens.

You are wrong however in the assumption that 'forced remain the same' takes nothing but potential away from some if we are considering pre-1.6 days which is why this whole debate was started. Sorcs had access to much higher weapon damage than any other class pre-1.6 and that was taken away. I could out DPS 99% of magicka sorcs out there just by stacking weapon dmg (way past the soft cap) and light attack weaving Executioner + some bow Dots. This advantage was taken away in conjunction with the Expert Mage passive making my only magicka sinks costing me too much to sustain. Stam Sorcs were relevant before 1.6, even better than magicka Sorcs. 'Forced remain the same' would be stam Sorcs still having access to more weapon dmg than any other class.

Cathexis

@jar_ek except that stamina builds use stamina for offence as well as defence so if you want to dodge roll you have to budget and spec for it, so the transition equalizes. I don't know if you looked at the dodge roll spec requirements but it takes A LOT to specialize in dodge rolling.

Cathexis

Also side note most stamina sorcs are close range fighters while most magika sorcs are long range fighters so they NEED more defence because of their tactical position

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I don't see the problem because it's not a problem at all.

/shrug

The REAL problem is that Sorcerers are pigeon-holed into ONLY being magicka builds in a game that was marketed as having flexible classes.

Sorcerer is the only class that is this inflexible.

I don't care if you see it as "omg, you are taking away 1-2 of my possible morphs", because in fact, YOU are the one being greedy here by continuing to force an ENTIRE CLASS to play YOUR way.

You have literally every morph of every single damage skill that Sorcs have, and you are too selfish to let stamina builds even have one? And have the audacity to lash out at other players and call them "greedy"?

What rubbish.

Nothing stopping you from stacking stamina as a sorcerer. What you're complaining about is that if you do that then you can't shoot lightning as good as magicka sorcerers. You're not supposed to. That's kind of the whole premise behind mages and warriors to begin with, not to mention the balance issues. There are quite a few utility skills to choose from that don't really care how big your magicka pool is btw.

That's not what I'm complaining about at all. That's just some nonsense you just made up right now.

There are no "mages" and "warriors" classes. Sorcerer does not make you a mage, just like Nightblade does not make you a rogue, and DK does not make you a tank. These are simply ONE archetype that you can play if you choose that class, but you can just as easily be a NB healer or tank, DK mage, or Templar rogue.

The issue is that w/ the addition of stamina morphs to the classes, Sorcerers are left in a position where they are the only class that is still pigeon-holed into certain playstyles.

Yes, I can be a stamina Sorc, but there is nothing in the Sorc skill lines to USE as a stamina DPS. Every single damaging ability scales from Magicka, every one of them. No other class has this problem.

It is a class disparity issue, plain and simple.

You tell me it's not about stamina sorcerers being able to use damaging abilities the same as magicka sorcerers, then you turn right around and tell me that it is. Which one is it?

Glurin

Jar_Ek wrote: »

In addition, most of the utility abilities have a high magicka cost and if they scale, they scale off magicka. This means that they are of limited use for stamina builds... and no options are provided to support stamina builds.

Probably because they're not meant to be spammed. You're also wrong that there are no options provided to support stamina builds. Two self support abilities have stamina morphs already, and most of those utility skills don't care what your magicka is as long as you have enough to cast them. The ones that do care are generally more suited to magicka users anyway. As somebody mentioned earlier, you wouldn't want hardened ward scaling off stamina because stamina users would generally be wearing heavy or medium armor and have a lot of health anyway, so it would cause a balance issue.

Erock25

Glurin wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

In addition, most of the utility abilities have a high magicka cost and if they scale, they scale off magicka. This means that they are of limited use for stamina builds... and no options are provided to support stamina builds.

Probably because they're not meant to be spammed. You're also wrong that there are no options provided to support stamina builds. Two self support abilities have stamina morphs already, and most of those utility skills don't care what your magicka is as long as you have enough to cast them. The ones that do care are generally more suited to magicka users anyway. As somebody mentioned earlier, you wouldn't want hardened ward scaling off stamina because stamina users would generally be wearing heavy or medium armor and have a lot of health anyway, so it would cause a balance issue.

Which is why the stamina morph of Hardened Ward should scale off of health.

Jar_Ek

@Glurin Yeah that person who said that scaling wards off stamina is a bad idea was me. I am also aware of the 2 morphs for stamina sorcerers. However I think you maybe missed the point in that high magicka ability costs without any the expert mage passive reduction is painful for pure stamina builds. It is probably not by design but a side effect of the new meta.

Ultimately I think all this rancor is misguided and I will wait to see what happens in the future.

Cathexis

I'm not following how its imbalanced when stamina users have to fight close range the majority of the time. Its not like melee sorcs have any special healing ability or regen that gives them sustainable survivability as other classes have. I feel as hough many who are claiming it would be op have never actually used a stamina build before.

Erock25

Cathexis wrote: »

I'm not following how its imbalanced when stamina users have to fight close range the majority of the time. Its not like melee sorcs have any special healing ability or regen that gives them sustainable survivability as other classes have. I feel as hough many who are claiming it would be op have never actually used a stamina build before.

Sorc having a Hardened Ward morph that scales off of max stamina would be extremely imbalanced in PVP. Hell, people are complaining about Hardened Ward scaling off of magicka currently, and that is without the ability to endless dodge-roll with very limited CC breaks/blocks. Damage shields can never scale on stamina as high stamina / stam regen comes with way too many defensive bonuses already.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I don't see the problem because it's not a problem at all.

/shrug

The REAL problem is that Sorcerers are pigeon-holed into ONLY being magicka builds in a game that was marketed as having flexible classes.

Sorcerer is the only class that is this inflexible.

I don't care if you see it as "omg, you are taking away 1-2 of my possible morphs", because in fact, YOU are the one being greedy here by continuing to force an ENTIRE CLASS to play YOUR way.

You have literally every morph of every single damage skill that Sorcs have, and you are too selfish to let stamina builds even have one? And have the audacity to lash out at other players and call them "greedy"?

What rubbish.

Nothing stopping you from stacking stamina as a sorcerer. What you're complaining about is that if you do that then you can't shoot lightning as good as magicka sorcerers. You're not supposed to. That's kind of the whole premise behind mages and warriors to begin with, not to mention the balance issues. There are quite a few utility skills to choose from that don't really care how big your magicka pool is btw.

That's not what I'm complaining about at all. That's just some nonsense you just made up right now.

There are no "mages" and "warriors" classes. Sorcerer does not make you a mage, just like Nightblade does not make you a rogue, and DK does not make you a tank. These are simply ONE archetype that you can play if you choose that class, but you can just as easily be a NB healer or tank, DK mage, or Templar rogue.

The issue is that w/ the addition of stamina morphs to the classes, Sorcerers are left in a position where they are the only class that is still pigeon-holed into certain playstyles.

Yes, I can be a stamina Sorc, but there is nothing in the Sorc skill lines to USE as a stamina DPS. Every single damaging ability scales from Magicka, every one of them. No other class has this problem.

It is a class disparity issue, plain and simple.

You tell me it's not about stamina sorcerers being able to use damaging abilities the same as magicka sorcerers, then you turn right around and tell me that it is. Which one is it?

It's about class disparity, which has nothing to do w/ "I can't shoot lightning gud", but more to do w/ "EVERY other class has viable stamina builds and stamina morphs that do damage except for Sorcerer, leaving stamina Sorcs WAY behind the other classes".

I thought that was very clear.

If it wasn't, it should be now.

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I don't see the problem because it's not a problem at all.

/shrug

The REAL problem is that Sorcerers are pigeon-holed into ONLY being magicka builds in a game that was marketed as having flexible classes.

Sorcerer is the only class that is this inflexible.

I don't care if you see it as "omg, you are taking away 1-2 of my possible morphs", because in fact, YOU are the one being greedy here by continuing to force an ENTIRE CLASS to play YOUR way.

You have literally every morph of every single damage skill that Sorcs have, and you are too selfish to let stamina builds even have one? And have the audacity to lash out at other players and call them "greedy"?

What rubbish.

Nothing stopping you from stacking stamina as a sorcerer. What you're complaining about is that if you do that then you can't shoot lightning as good as magicka sorcerers. You're not supposed to. That's kind of the whole premise behind mages and warriors to begin with, not to mention the balance issues. There are quite a few utility skills to choose from that don't really care how big your magicka pool is btw.

That's not what I'm complaining about at all. That's just some nonsense you just made up right now.

There are no "mages" and "warriors" classes. Sorcerer does not make you a mage, just like Nightblade does not make you a rogue, and DK does not make you a tank. These are simply ONE archetype that you can play if you choose that class, but you can just as easily be a NB healer or tank, DK mage, or Templar rogue.

The issue is that w/ the addition of stamina morphs to the classes, Sorcerers are left in a position where they are the only class that is still pigeon-holed into certain playstyles.

Yes, I can be a stamina Sorc, but there is nothing in the Sorc skill lines to USE as a stamina DPS. Every single damaging ability scales from Magicka, every one of them. No other class has this problem.

It is a class disparity issue, plain and simple.

You tell me it's not about stamina sorcerers being able to use damaging abilities the same as magicka sorcerers, then you turn right around and tell me that it is. Which one is it?

It's about class disparity, which has nothing to do w/ "I can't shoot lightning gud", but more to do w/ "EVERY other class has viable stamina builds and stamina morphs that do damage except for Sorcerer, leaving stamina Sorcs WAY behind the other classes".

I thought that was very clear.

If it wasn't, it should be now.

Ok so let's go with the whole "Sorcerers don't have as many stamina morphs as the others" thing and let me ask you this. Why should they? Balance does not necessitate homogenization. Perhaps the cost of some skills can be adjusted, but all in all, when you play a sorcerer (ie. a frickin mage), you expect the sorcerer class skills to be related to a sorcerer's area of expertise (ie. magic). You may as well be demanding that the mage's guild, destruction and restoration staff trees all have stamina morphs and for all the weapon skills to have magicka morphs.

If you didn't want to be a sorcerer, then you should have picked something other than sorcerer when you were creating your character.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I don't see the problem because it's not a problem at all.

/shrug

The REAL problem is that Sorcerers are pigeon-holed into ONLY being magicka builds in a game that was marketed as having flexible classes.

Sorcerer is the only class that is this inflexible.

I don't care if you see it as "omg, you are taking away 1-2 of my possible morphs", because in fact, YOU are the one being greedy here by continuing to force an ENTIRE CLASS to play YOUR way.

You have literally every morph of every single damage skill that Sorcs have, and you are too selfish to let stamina builds even have one? And have the audacity to lash out at other players and call them "greedy"?

What rubbish.

Nothing stopping you from stacking stamina as a sorcerer. What you're complaining about is that if you do that then you can't shoot lightning as good as magicka sorcerers. You're not supposed to. That's kind of the whole premise behind mages and warriors to begin with, not to mention the balance issues. There are quite a few utility skills to choose from that don't really care how big your magicka pool is btw.

That's not what I'm complaining about at all. That's just some nonsense you just made up right now.

There are no "mages" and "warriors" classes. Sorcerer does not make you a mage, just like Nightblade does not make you a rogue, and DK does not make you a tank. These are simply ONE archetype that you can play if you choose that class, but you can just as easily be a NB healer or tank, DK mage, or Templar rogue.

The issue is that w/ the addition of stamina morphs to the classes, Sorcerers are left in a position where they are the only class that is still pigeon-holed into certain playstyles.

Yes, I can be a stamina Sorc, but there is nothing in the Sorc skill lines to USE as a stamina DPS. Every single damaging ability scales from Magicka, every one of them. No other class has this problem.

It is a class disparity issue, plain and simple.

You tell me it's not about stamina sorcerers being able to use damaging abilities the same as magicka sorcerers, then you turn right around and tell me that it is. Which one is it?

It's about class disparity, which has nothing to do w/ "I can't shoot lightning gud", but more to do w/ "EVERY other class has viable stamina builds and stamina morphs that do damage except for Sorcerer, leaving stamina Sorcs WAY behind the other classes".

I thought that was very clear.

If it wasn't, it should be now.

Ok so let's go with the whole "Sorcerers don't have as many stamina morphs as the others" thing and let me ask you this. Why should they? Balance does not necessitate homogenization. Perhaps the cost of some skills can be adjusted, but all in all, when you play a sorcerer (ie. a frickin mage), you expect the sorcerer class skills to be related to a sorcerer's area of expertise (ie. magic). You may as well be demanding that the mage's guild, destruction and restoration staff trees all have stamina morphs and for all the weapon skills to have magicka morphs.

If you didn't want to be a sorcerer, then you should have picked something other than sorcerer when you were creating your character.

There you go again w/ your misguided assumption that just because you picked a class CALLED Sorcerer, it can only be some kind of RP wizard. That's still not the case.

The fact that you are even attempting to build an argument around a completely false assumption is a bit silly, imo.

That may be what YOU want a Sorc to be, but it's not what ZOS ever intended for the class:

"We've designed classes with openness and flexibility in mind, so there is ample opportunity for customization as characters develop." - https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/465/kw/classes

"each class is able to take on the role of healer, tank or damage dealer. It's entirely up to the player." - https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6142/kw/classes

"class is not a deciding factor for determining a character's role." - https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2164/kw/classes

"Players will have the freedom to mold their characters however they want eventually, but class choices allow them to strategize and combine their character's core skills with others' in a fun way." - https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3555/kw/classes

These were all taken directly from the Knowledge Base here on the official site.

And again, nobody cares that all of your class skills cost magic, because ALL class skills cost magic before 1.6. This has nothing to do w/ the fact that your class is named Sorcerer. It was just a design decision that ZOS decided was a poor idea and changed, because of the huge disparity that existed between magicka and stamina builds.

It was a good change; you see more stamina builds now than ever, and magicka builds are still pretty competitive at the high end as well. However, there's a few outliers, and Stamina Sorc is a glaring example of an entire role that fell through the cracks.

It's absolutely clear that Sorcs (or any other class) are NOT intended to be pigeonholed into a single archetype and that your class should not hold you back from being able to pick up a weapon and excel w/ it through the usage of class and weapon skill lines.

Sorc doesn't have anything going for it anymore. The new Surge is strictly worse than pre-1.6 Surge and while every other class received upgrades to their stamina archetypes, Sorc received nothing.

It's time to fix this. Stop being Billy and let your Sorc brothers at least be viable.

Glurin

"Stamina Sorc" is not a role. It is a build.

Roles are Tank, Healer, DPS, Runner, Off Tank, Off Healer, etc. etc.

What you want is for your build to be viable, but I don't think you know how to do it so you're just demanding everything be mixed together into some kind of grey pudding.

Nutronic

Even if going stamina (let's just assume) shouldn't be an option with sorcs, why can't the be spell swords and do comparative damage?

If Magicka based skills offered some unique and competitive bonuses for melee or bow DPS then I don't think we'd be having this discussion. As it stands though, each class right now has good options (be them stam or magic based) which allows them to sustain melee or weapon DPSers. Also, this whole thing so far has just been about DPSers, not even considering TANKS, which as a role demands you have a decent size pool for stamina.

If you're going to claim the class is flexible enough to fulfill any role competitively, I'd like to see you pug a trial as a sorc.

Can't agree that morphs need to be 100% stamina based or get their damage from it, but there does need to be some love given in terms of getting passive procs for non staff users and being able to mitigate damage without sacrificing your health so you can stack shields.

Glurin

Nutronic wrote: »

Even if going stamina (let's just assume) shouldn't be an option with sorcs

Stop right there. I never once said stamina shouldn't be an option for sorcerers. I said flipping sorcerer skills around to be stamina resource based is a bad idea.

Bodycounter

While i do think, that Sorcerer should have some options to make a viable stamina build, i see some balancing problems, which may have been the reason for ZOS to keep Sorcerers magicka based. Their current abilities would get out of hand, if they would partly scale from stamina. So, what Sorcerers need in my opinion, is a greater rework. Their pet mechanic is totally lackluster and the "bubble build" is boring and without much counterplay. Sorcerers need more diversity, that can only come with a rework of the whole class.

Father

Sorcerers have sustain problems with stamina. Seriously the first thing that a sorc will ask for is "more spears please".cause after 10-20 sec no stamina left

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

"Stamina Sorc" is not a role. It is a build.

Roles are Tank, Healer, DPS, Runner, Off Tank, Off Healer, etc. etc.

What you want is for your build to be viable, but I don't think you know how to do it so you're just demanding everything be mixed together into some kind of grey pudding.

And clearly ZOS wants that grey pudding or they would not have rebalanced stamina builds for 1.6. It's readily apparent that ZOS wants people of EVERY class to be able to pick up ANY weapon and be able to excel w/ it, period.

I'm not sure what your point is here, other than trying to be deliberately obtuse and hoping that will somehow deflect your intrinsically flawed argument? Because I'm not misdirected. I'm not distracted.

Stamina Sorc builds are leagues behind every other class due to the lack of ANY offensive stamina-based ability and this needs to change.

I don't care that you aren't willing to give up any of your 50 skills because you believe that you deserve everything and stamina deserves nothing. That's selfish. And worse, it's terrible for the game itself.

ZOS is NOT going to make a 3rd morph category, just like they are NOT going to make a 3rd resource anytime in the near future. You can keep asking for this, but I am not even going to begin discussing a topic that most likely is a complete pipe dream.

Might as well discuss what it would be like if Unicorns ruled Manhattan. It's about the same relevance.

And if you expect people to just stay quiet about being worse than every other class in the game every single time they pick up a melee weapon, that's completely asinine. You are doing your class an extreme disservice.

PS) MY build is a Breton Magicka Sorc. That's ONE of the 16 characters that I actively play. Please do not make assumptions about what I play or how I play again, thanks.

Cathexis

@Erock25 just because you use stamina doesn't mean you can infinite dodge roll. Its actually difficult to achieve infinite dodge roll and if there was a stamina morph of be (and also a complimentary equilibrium) teleporting away would override the need to dodge roll in situations where you would need to escape simply due to superior utility.

People don't seem to understand these teo point about stamina builds:

1. You are fighting at close range for 3/4 stamina weapon builds.
2. The more stamina abilities you have, the more you have to budget your pool, which means the limit on bf/dodge/sprint/block shrinks

eventide03b14a_ESO

I support Sorcerers getting stamina options as long as they don't screw around with the spells I currently use. That's really the problem here. We have already gotten used to our builds post 1.6 and for half of them to suddenly scale off a different pool is going to be a real problem for a lot of people. I feel like they already lost their window to do this without negatively impacting people that already play sorcs. Best case scenario is that they tweak them to give some sort of passive bonus to stamina based attacks without changing which pool they base them on.

Cathexis

@father you are hit the issue more precisely I think than anyone has -- stamina sustainability is the bigger problem here, and I would argue that it parallels the problem of the cost of spells being too high for non-magicka users.

Cathexis

@eventide03b14a_ESO I think having passives that convert spells to stamina scaling or only adding morphs for key spells like BE and HW would be an easy compromise.

Also as a side note as a life/stam sorc I have had to respect on average 2 times per patch. It has been a huge setback.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Cathexis wrote: »

@eventide03b14a_ESO I think having passives that convert spells to stamina scaling or only adding morphs for key spells like BE and HW would be an easy compromise.

Also as a side note as a life/stam sorc I have had to respect on average 2 times per patch. It has been a huge setback.

They can have Empowered Ward then. It would really suck if Hardened Ward suddenly scaled off of stamina or health. I'm not even talking about shield stacking either, which is something I fully support removing. I am talking about taking away our primary defense. Also what would be the point of either morph of BE scaling off of stamina when roll dodging has become far more efficient anyway?

Varicite

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I support Sorcerers getting stamina options as long as they don't screw around with the spells I currently use. That's really the problem here. We have already gotten used to our builds post 1.6 and for half of them to suddenly scale off a different pool is going to be a real problem for a lot of people. I feel like they already lost their window to do this without negatively impacting people that already play sorcs. Best case scenario is that they tweak them to give some sort of passive bonus to stamina based attacks without changing which pool they base them on.

The question here is:

Why do Sorcerers get a free pass when no other class did when it comes to converting class damage skills to stamina?

What makes Sorcs so special?

I am POSITIVE that DKs would have absolutely LOVED to have this, rather than watch stam builds get Unstable Flame.

I am POSITIVE that NBs would have ADORED to have this, rather than watch stam builds get Ambush.

But Sorcs can just say "Yeah, not US, we are special snowflakes, and not only do stam builds not get ANY damage abilities, but if they ever DO want to convert something to stam, you have to give us THREE morphs instead of the way you did every other class."

Or "well, sure I GUESS you can convert something to Stamina, but ONLY if magicka Sorcs do not lose access to ANYTHING AT ALL".

...why do you believe that you deserve this?

What makes you better than everybody else?