Sorcerer - Lack of stamina morphs

Mojomonkeyman

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Umm... First theyve messed up my nightblade and DK with this stamina thingy change, now someone wants to touch my sorc? Nope nope nope... Well i could agree for skill that would allow sorcs to use magica instead of stamina to block etc. It could be very usefull for both stamina and magica sorc builds. I think that in game survey could solve the problem very quickly, I dont see any reason why not to that...

It's good to see the 'we don't actually want stamina morphs' supporters join me on this thread. Thanks also to Glurin.

Erock et al (and actually there are not that many 'et al's' when you count them) want a fundamental change to our class in favour of what will amount to an utterly OP PvP build that will make the currently strong PvP build redundant by comparison.

I have been for a week or two classified as the 'lone voice' in defence of the Sorcerer = Sorcery = Magicka current design concept and trolled by a few people who accused me of being the troll for arguing against them.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of Sorc. players don't want to become a weaksauce, counterintuitive hybrid class in PvE in order to furnish a few cunningly self-serving PvP'ers with a God Mode Build.

It is certainly the case with the overwhelming majority of those I talk to in-game, and after the ones who might consider it are told about the possibility of having tanking, and non-staff dps as being magicka-resourced exclusively for Sorcerer, they generally admit they hadn't even thought of that and like it better in most cases.

There are already three out of four hybrids by design with stamina viable builds a-plenty.

It's not 'selfish' to ask that one of the four classes remain true to what the entire world understand the word 'Sorcerer' to mean...

So, basically, you label any opinion that doesn`t match your agenda as unworthy while simultaniuoulsy claiming to be representative of "the people". Dude, for real?

Each and every post of yours reminds me of some sad amateur politician whos trying to create a following with categorizing people into "us" and "them".

I like playing both, magica and stam sorc, equally. There is no "us" and "them". Both styles are wanted, both styles are needed and both styles have a right to get necessary adjustments to make their builds viable.

The entire game was built up on a hybrid idea.

Septimus_Magna

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

ushanshek wrote: »

Hello. Since 1.6 all classes got some morphs for stamina, unlike sorcerer (except bound armaments).
I think that some skills should be able to get morphed to stamina.
Crystal Shard - We all know that Crystal Fragments is way better than Crystal Blast. Therefore i suggest that the weaker morph, could be changed to stamina, Example:
Conjure dark crystals to bombard an enemy, dealing xx Magic Damage and knocking them down for 2 seconds.
Using other skills has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Blast to be instant, doing 20% more damage, and costing 50% less Stamina.
(could also remove knockdown and give it Major Fracture)

Daedric Curse - Velocious curse is really good no doubt. Daedric prey not so much, they should increase pets damage without the need of curse on the target, pets are still very weak.
Example:
Curse an enemy with a destructive rune, dealing xx Magic Damage to the target enemy after 6 seconds and xx Magic Damage to any enemies nearby. Activating this ability grants you Minor Berserk and Major Endurance for 6 sec.
You can have only one curse active at any given time.

Daedric Mines - Daedric Minefield is pretty nice, daedric tomb not so much. Reduce the cost please.. (this one could stay mana skill)
Example:
Imbue your MELEE weapon with 3 volatile Daedric caltrops for 15 seconds that explode every third attack dealing xx damage and rooting them for 1.5 seconds.

Thoughts?

You say:

"We all know that Crystal Fragments is way better than Crystal Blast..."

I say: Who is this "We" you're talking about, 'cause it ain't THIS Sorc!? Crystal Frags is finicky and unreliable due to the RNG-based proc. Crystal Frags also sucks because you have put some OTHER spell on your bar that you can spam for the proc. Unfortunately, Sorcs don't have any good, spammable damage spells, otherwise we'd be using them instead of CF in the first place!

Crystal Blast, on the other hand, is one of the highest damage AOE spells in the game. If you care more about healing than max damage, you can stack health and magicka regen and get around 2800 HPS from the Blood Magic passive by casting it continuously.

.

Have you tried Crystal Frags yourself? It procs really often if you weave normal attacks with Force Pulse for example. The procced Crystal Frags does 20% more damage, it costs 50% less magicka and its an "instant" cast. An AOE spell with a cast time of 1.3 seconds will do a lot less damage than spamming instant cast AOE spell like Elemental Ring. Crystal Frags is a good spell for pve and for pvp but you have to watch out with Reflective Scales in pvp of course.

I really dont see any reason why anyone would pick Crystal Blast, I only use Crystal Frags on procs because of the cast time.

Erock25

mwobey wrote: »

This talk of stamina sorcs having no class skills they can use feels a bit disingenuous to me, particularly when placed alongside the list of things that stamina DKs have access to. Some things on the DK list are magicka abilities used for their utility, such that magicka scaling doesn't matter; sorc actually has a lot of these as well:

Encase - AoE root that can be morphed to also provide a snare

Daedric Mines - Placeable stun trap

Lightning Form - Major buffs to armor and spell resistance, the lightning damage to melee range targets can proc concussion to reduce their damage.

Rune Prison - long-term disorient to single target.

Daedric mines are way too much magicka to be useful in a stamina spec, not to mention the pathetic dmg without magicka/spell power. No way is any stam sorc out there using daedric mines. You listing Encase when I didn't add talons/stone fist/petrify is a bit disingenuous especially considering you are getting 5% stamina back with the latter two. Lightning Form is great indeed, especially now with the added duration. Rune Prison is garbage compared to Petrify. Defensive Rune can be nice IMHO in PVP if you have the room for it, but if Petrify isn't on my list of DK skills, no way can you add Rune Prison.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Umm... First theyve messed up my nightblade and DK with this stamina thingy change, now someone wants to touch my sorc? Nope nope nope... Well i could agree for skill that would allow sorcs to use magica instead of stamina to block etc. It could be very usefull for both stamina and magica sorc builds. I think that in game survey could solve the problem very quickly, I dont see any reason why not to that...

It's good to see the 'we don't actually want stamina morphs' supporters join me on this thread. Thanks also to Glurin.

Erock et al (and actually there are not that many 'et al's' when you count them) want a fundamental change to our class in favour of what will amount to an utterly OP PvP build that will make the currently strong PvP build redundant by comparison.

I have been for a week or two classified as the 'lone voice' in defence of the Sorcerer = Sorcery = Magicka current design concept and trolled by a few people who accused me of being the troll for arguing against them.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of Sorc. players don't want to become a weaksauce, counterintuitive hybrid class in PvE in order to furnish a few cunningly self-serving PvP'ers with a God Mode Build.

It is certainly the case with the overwhelming majority of those I talk to in-game, and after the ones who might consider it are told about the possibility of having tanking, and non-staff dps as being magicka-resourced exclusively for Sorcerer, they generally admit they hadn't even thought of that and like it better in most cases.

There are already three out of four hybrids by design with stamina viable builds a-plenty.

It's not 'selfish' to ask that one of the four classes remain true to what the entire world understand the word 'Sorcerer' to mean...

@byrom101b16_ESO I was trying my best to ignore your posts, but you keep mentioning my name, and it is very tiring. I know you want Sorc to remain the only class that is solely focused on Magicka. I know you think that a majority of Sorc out there want to play only Magicka. It doesn't matter. All four classes were Magicka only classes when the game launched. ZOS can't say 'Okay NB, Temp, and DK ... here are some stamina options within your class skill and passives,' while not giving equal attention to the Sorc. When you only have four classes, you can't have one be singled out as the unique one that only has one build option. More stamina morphs are coming (unfortunately a few months from now) and that is the bottom line. You can keep arguing and being disruptive and bringing up my name in posts left and right, or you can stay out of a conversation (this is a post directly talking about stamina morphs) that you will add nothing to.

I hope you can move on and start ignoring stamina sorc threads. Sorc stam morphs are coming and it is just a damn shame how long they will take to get here.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Umm... First theyve messed up my nightblade and DK with this stamina thingy change, now someone wants to touch my sorc? Nope nope nope... Well i could agree for skill that would allow sorcs to use magica instead of stamina to block etc. It could be very usefull for both stamina and magica sorc builds. I think that in game survey could solve the problem very quickly, I dont see any reason why not to that...

It's good to see the 'we don't actually want stamina morphs' supporters join me on this thread. Thanks also to Glurin.

Erock et al (and actually there are not that many 'et al's' when you count them) want a fundamental change to our class in favour of what will amount to an utterly OP PvP build that will make the currently strong PvP build redundant by comparison.

I have been for a week or two classified as the 'lone voice' in defence of the Sorcerer = Sorcery = Magicka current design concept and trolled by a few people who accused me of being the troll for arguing against them.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of Sorc. players don't want to become a weaksauce, counterintuitive hybrid class in PvE in order to furnish a few cunningly self-serving PvP'ers with a God Mode Build.

It is certainly the case with the overwhelming majority of those I talk to in-game, and after the ones who might consider it are told about the possibility of having tanking, and non-staff dps as being magicka-resourced exclusively for Sorcerer, they generally admit they hadn't even thought of that and like it better in most cases.

There are already three out of four hybrids by design with stamina viable builds a-plenty.

It's not 'selfish' to ask that one of the four classes remain true to what the entire world understand the word 'Sorcerer' to mean...

So, basically, you label any opinion that doesn`t match your agenda as unworthy while simultaniuoulsy claiming to be representative of "the people". Dude, for real?

Each and every post of yours reminds me of some sad amateur politician whos trying to create a following with categorizing people into "us" and "them".

I like playing both, magica and stam sorc, equally. There is no "us" and "them". Both styles are wanted, both styles are needed and both styles have a right to get necessary adjustments to make their builds viable.

The entire game was built up on a hybrid idea.

Exactly.

byrom101b16_ESO

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Umm... First theyve messed up my nightblade and DK with this stamina thingy change, now someone wants to touch my sorc? Nope nope nope... Well i could agree for skill that would allow sorcs to use magica instead of stamina to block etc. It could be very usefull for both stamina and magica sorc builds. I think that in game survey could solve the problem very quickly, I dont see any reason why not to that...

It's good to see the 'we don't actually want stamina morphs' supporters join me on this thread. Thanks also to Glurin.

Erock et al (and actually there are not that many 'et al's' when you count them) want a fundamental change to our class in favour of what will amount to an utterly OP PvP build that will make the currently strong PvP build redundant by comparison.

I have been for a week or two classified as the 'lone voice' in defence of the Sorcerer = Sorcery = Magicka current design concept and trolled by a few people who accused me of being the troll for arguing against them.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of Sorc. players don't want to become a weaksauce, counterintuitive hybrid class in PvE in order to furnish a few cunningly self-serving PvP'ers with a God Mode Build.

It is certainly the case with the overwhelming majority of those I talk to in-game, and after the ones who might consider it are told about the possibility of having tanking, and non-staff dps as being magicka-resourced exclusively for Sorcerer, they generally admit they hadn't even thought of that and like it better in most cases.

There are already three out of four hybrids by design with stamina viable builds a-plenty.

It's not 'selfish' to ask that one of the four classes remain true to what the entire world understand the word 'Sorcerer' to mean...

So, basically, you label any opinion that doesn`t match your agenda as unworthy while simultaniuoulsy claiming to be representative of "the people". Dude, for real?

Each and every post of yours reminds me of some sad amateur politician whos trying to create a following with categorizing people into "us" and "them".

I like playing both, magica and stam sorc, equally. There is no "us" and "them". Both styles are wanted, both styles are needed and both styles have a right to get necessary adjustments to make their builds viable.

The entire game was built up on a hybrid idea.

Actually, you are wrong on several counts.

I have called the idea unrepresentative, not 'unworthy'.

Unlike Erock et al I have at least bothered to ask Sorcerer players in game about this, and got a feel from the 40 or so I've talked to.

I am also the one asking for an entirely unbias poll of the Sorc. population in general on this an a great many other class issues. try reading it...

You'll not find Erock et al doing either of these things by the way...

Why don't you criticise them for being one-sided...?

...because... as you admit it in your post, you are a stamina hybridisation supporter yourself!

You also state the patently untrue 'design philosophy' that the game was 'always meant' to be hybrid. It wasn't - the only thing Zenimax have said about it is AFTER the online campaign to get it put in.

If you can find a credible pre-campaign admission by anyone from Zenimax that the Sorcerer was always meant to be a hybrid - I'll give you guys the floor.

But even should that be true, the class isn't now, nor was it a stamina hybrid at the time most people chose their mains as Sorcerers.

If you truly think only a minority of players want their class to remain the same play-style and concept of character they deliberately CHOSE at the start of the game, have the confidence to explain that logic without assuming you knew Zenimax's mind when the game was created...

There is, in my opinion, no credible evidence that MOST Sorcerer players, now or then, want hybridisation. There is also NO version of suggested hybridisation on these forums as yet, which doesn't cost magicka Sorcerers much needed and wanted improvements to useless magicka morphs.

Stamina hybridisation as currently suggested, robs Peter to pay Paul. It reduces choice in one majority playstyle (the current one) to furnish a minority one (the proposed one). it also sets up a Godmode for stamina Sorcerer in PvP. Ulterior motives much?

Plus of course, and I get weary of explaining this simple fact - tanking and weapon-based dps can be accomplished by magicka morphs to magicka skills uniquely for the Sorcerer. So if, with the slightest bit of imagination, stamina is made irrelevant to furnish all roles for Sorcerers in the game, what are you banging on about stamina for?

Do you like watching green bars deplete more than blue ones? You don't like 'spells'.

Just what is it?

As for the tricks of amateur politicians - it is the most basic trick of all to label others with what you are yourself. Like a simplistic version of 'plausible deniability'.

Dude, for real... indeed!

byrom101b16_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

mwobey wrote: »

This talk of stamina sorcs having no class skills they can use feels a bit disingenuous to me, particularly when placed alongside the list of things that stamina DKs have access to. Some things on the DK list are magicka abilities used for their utility, such that magicka scaling doesn't matter; sorc actually has a lot of these as well:

Encase - AoE root that can be morphed to also provide a snare

Daedric Mines - Placeable stun trap

Lightning Form - Major buffs to armor and spell resistance, the lightning damage to melee range targets can proc concussion to reduce their damage.

Rune Prison - long-term disorient to single target.

Daedric mines are way too much magicka to be useful in a stamina spec, not to mention the pathetic dmg without magicka/spell power. No way is any stam sorc out there using daedric mines. You listing Encase when I didn't add talons/stone fist/petrify is a bit disingenuous especially considering you are getting 5% stamina back with the latter two. Lightning Form is great indeed, especially now with the added duration. Rune Prison is garbage compared to Petrify. Defensive Rune can be nice IMHO in PVP if you have the room for it, but if Petrify isn't on my list of DK skills, no way can you add Rune Prison.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Umm... First theyve messed up my nightblade and DK with this stamina thingy change, now someone wants to touch my sorc? Nope nope nope... Well i could agree for skill that would allow sorcs to use magica instead of stamina to block etc. It could be very usefull for both stamina and magica sorc builds. I think that in game survey could solve the problem very quickly, I dont see any reason why not to that...

It's good to see the 'we don't actually want stamina morphs' supporters join me on this thread. Thanks also to Glurin.

Erock et al (and actually there are not that many 'et al's' when you count them) want a fundamental change to our class in favour of what will amount to an utterly OP PvP build that will make the currently strong PvP build redundant by comparison.

I have been for a week or two classified as the 'lone voice' in defence of the Sorcerer = Sorcery = Magicka current design concept and trolled by a few people who accused me of being the troll for arguing against them.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of Sorc. players don't want to become a weaksauce, counterintuitive hybrid class in PvE in order to furnish a few cunningly self-serving PvP'ers with a God Mode Build.

It is certainly the case with the overwhelming majority of those I talk to in-game, and after the ones who might consider it are told about the possibility of having tanking, and non-staff dps as being magicka-resourced exclusively for Sorcerer, they generally admit they hadn't even thought of that and like it better in most cases.

There are already three out of four hybrids by design with stamina viable builds a-plenty.

It's not 'selfish' to ask that one of the four classes remain true to what the entire world understand the word 'Sorcerer' to mean...

@byrom101b16_ESO I was trying my best to ignore your posts, but you keep mentioning my name, and it is very tiring. I know you want Sorc to remain the only class that is solely focused on Magicka. I know you think that a majority of Sorc out there want to play only Magicka. It doesn't matter. All four classes were Magicka only classes when the game launched. ZOS can't say 'Okay NB, Temp, and DK ... here are some stamina options within your class skill and passives,' while not giving equal attention to the Sorc. When you only have four classes, you can't have one be singled out as the unique one that only has one build option. More stamina morphs are coming (unfortunately a few months from now) and that is the bottom line. You can keep arguing and being disruptive and bringing up my name in posts left and right, or you can stay out of a conversation (this is a post directly talking about stamina morphs) that you will add nothing to.

I hope you can move on and start ignoring stamina sorc threads. Sorc stam morphs are coming and it is just a damn shame how long they will take to get here.

I like challenging disinformation. Stop spreading it and I'll not be mentioning your name anymore.

Better yet - support my thread for a representative Sorc. player poll to see what the truth actually is and stop being triumphalist about the stamina morphs you think you are going to get at some undefined future point.

Or are you saying Zenimax never change their plans, or always comply with their own claims?

FACT: Zenimax haven't said how they will give stamina Sorc. players something - you are just assuming it will be morphs because you posted some ideas in that area.

What kind of game designer guru are you that you can be so supremely confident in your prognostications?

FACT: These forums are about discussion, so you treating the issue as one no longer up for discussion except by those who agree with you is entirely self-serving.

The idea that a thread about one side of an issue is off-limits to anyone with a different opinion is utterly ridiculous, really...

I've highlighted a few things in your post so I can comment on them here;

"It doesn't matter." So anything counter to your opinions and take on the class has no value as far as you are concerned. Thanks for confirming that what I have been accused of, is in fact what you are guilty of.

"ZOS can't" Really? Do you own the company? News flash - they can and do whatever they want, and there are a great many PvE'centric Sorcerer players who find a number of their recent changes to be poor ones, and indeed ones they weren't consulted on. So yes, in fact, ZOS can!

"you can't". Yes 'we' can - and 'we' DO have a class that uses magicka as it's exclusive class skill resource right now, which 'we' enjoy playing. Many of 'us' like it that way and don't agree with 'you'. The difference is, 'we' aren't saying "you can't" to you.

You dress a very self-serving argument up as reasoned debate, but the obvious truth is, you just don't want debate outside of the narrow bounds you set, ones where everyone has to agree with the scope you define, and can only talk about the details you've laid out.

That's not the way it works Erock. It's called a Forum, not a 'Dictatorium'.

You call it 'disruptive', and in a way it is, just not the way you want to represent it.

I, and others don't agree with you Erock.

Our apologies if this 'disrupts' your agenda.

Erock25

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

mwobey wrote: »

This talk of stamina sorcs having no class skills they can use feels a bit disingenuous to me, particularly when placed alongside the list of things that stamina DKs have access to. Some things on the DK list are magicka abilities used for their utility, such that magicka scaling doesn't matter; sorc actually has a lot of these as well:

Encase - AoE root that can be morphed to also provide a snare

Daedric Mines - Placeable stun trap

Lightning Form - Major buffs to armor and spell resistance, the lightning damage to melee range targets can proc concussion to reduce their damage.

Rune Prison - long-term disorient to single target.

Daedric mines are way too much magicka to be useful in a stamina spec, not to mention the pathetic dmg without magicka/spell power. No way is any stam sorc out there using daedric mines. You listing Encase when I didn't add talons/stone fist/petrify is a bit disingenuous especially considering you are getting 5% stamina back with the latter two. Lightning Form is great indeed, especially now with the added duration. Rune Prison is garbage compared to Petrify. Defensive Rune can be nice IMHO in PVP if you have the room for it, but if Petrify isn't on my list of DK skills, no way can you add Rune Prison.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Umm... First theyve messed up my nightblade and DK with this stamina thingy change, now someone wants to touch my sorc? Nope nope nope... Well i could agree for skill that would allow sorcs to use magica instead of stamina to block etc. It could be very usefull for both stamina and magica sorc builds. I think that in game survey could solve the problem very quickly, I dont see any reason why not to that...

It's good to see the 'we don't actually want stamina morphs' supporters join me on this thread. Thanks also to Glurin.

Erock et al (and actually there are not that many 'et al's' when you count them) want a fundamental change to our class in favour of what will amount to an utterly OP PvP build that will make the currently strong PvP build redundant by comparison.

I have been for a week or two classified as the 'lone voice' in defence of the Sorcerer = Sorcery = Magicka current design concept and trolled by a few people who accused me of being the troll for arguing against them.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of Sorc. players don't want to become a weaksauce, counterintuitive hybrid class in PvE in order to furnish a few cunningly self-serving PvP'ers with a God Mode Build.

It is certainly the case with the overwhelming majority of those I talk to in-game, and after the ones who might consider it are told about the possibility of having tanking, and non-staff dps as being magicka-resourced exclusively for Sorcerer, they generally admit they hadn't even thought of that and like it better in most cases.

There are already three out of four hybrids by design with stamina viable builds a-plenty.

It's not 'selfish' to ask that one of the four classes remain true to what the entire world understand the word 'Sorcerer' to mean...

@byrom101b16_ESO I was trying my best to ignore your posts, but you keep mentioning my name, and it is very tiring. I know you want Sorc to remain the only class that is solely focused on Magicka. I know you think that a majority of Sorc out there want to play only Magicka. It doesn't matter. All four classes were Magicka only classes when the game launched. ZOS can't say 'Okay NB, Temp, and DK ... here are some stamina options within your class skill and passives,' while not giving equal attention to the Sorc. When you only have four classes, you can't have one be singled out as the unique one that only has one build option. More stamina morphs are coming (unfortunately a few months from now) and that is the bottom line. You can keep arguing and being disruptive and bringing up my name in posts left and right, or you can stay out of a conversation (this is a post directly talking about stamina morphs) that you will add nothing to.

I hope you can move on and start ignoring stamina sorc threads. Sorc stam morphs are coming and it is just a damn shame how long they will take to get here.

I like challenging disinformation. Stop spreading it and I'll not be mentioning your name anymore.

Better yet - support my thread for a representative Sorc. player poll to see what the truth actually is and stop being triumphalist about the stamina morphs you think you are going to get at some undefined future point.

Or are you saying Zenimax never change their plans, or always comply with their own claims?

FACT: Zenimax haven't said how they will give stamina Sorc. players something - you are just assuming it will be morphs because you posted some ideas in that area.

What kind of game designer guru are you that you can be so supremely confident in your prognostications?

FACT: These forums are about discussion, so you treating the issue as one no longer up for discussion except by those who agree with you is entirely self-serving.

The idea that a thread about one side of an issue is off-limits to anyone with a different opinion is utterly ridiculous, really...

I've highlighted a few things in your post so I can comment on them here;

"It doesn't matter." So anything counter to your opinions and take on the class has no value as far as you are concerned. Thanks for confirming that what I have been accused of, is in fact what you are guilty of.

"ZOS can't" Really? Do you own the company? News flash - they can and do whatever they want, and there are a great many PvE'centric Sorcerer players who find a number of their recent changes to be poor ones, and indeed ones they weren't consulted on. So yes, in fact, ZOS can!

"you can't". Yes 'we' can - and 'we' DO have a class that uses magiicka as it's exclusive class skill resource right now, which 'we' enjoy playing. Many of 'us' like it that way and don't agree with 'you'. The difference is, 'we' aren't saying "you can't" to you.

You dress a very self-serving argument up as reasoned debate, buut the truth is, you don't want debate outside oof the narrow bounds you set, ones where everyone has to agree with the scope of your ideas, and can only talk about the details you've laid out.

That's not the way it works Erock.

You call it 'disruptive', and in a way it is, just not the way you want to represent it.

I, and others don't agree with you. Our apologies if this disrupts your agenda.

Well then, please carry on with whatever it is you are doing. There is no point in addressing you when you will not see reason. Keep on posting ad nauseum about how terrible 2 stamina morphs and a tweak of a passive or two would be and I will go back to ignoring your posts, no matter how many times you write out Erock et al.

I can't be alone in thinking that a reply like Byrom's above is pretty ridiculous considering what I said to him, can I?

Mojomonkeyman

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Umm... First theyve messed up my nightblade and DK with this stamina thingy change, now someone wants to touch my sorc? Nope nope nope... Well i could agree for skill that would allow sorcs to use magica instead of stamina to block etc. It could be very usefull for both stamina and magica sorc builds. I think that in game survey could solve the problem very quickly, I dont see any reason why not to that...

It's good to see the 'we don't actually want stamina morphs' supporters join me on this thread. Thanks also to Glurin.

Erock et al (and actually there are not that many 'et al's' when you count them) want a fundamental change to our class in favour of what will amount to an utterly OP PvP build that will make the currently strong PvP build redundant by comparison.

I have been for a week or two classified as the 'lone voice' in defence of the Sorcerer = Sorcery = Magicka current design concept and trolled by a few people who accused me of being the troll for arguing against them.

I firmly believe that the vast majority of Sorc. players don't want to become a weaksauce, counterintuitive hybrid class in PvE in order to furnish a few cunningly self-serving PvP'ers with a God Mode Build.

It is certainly the case with the overwhelming majority of those I talk to in-game, and after the ones who might consider it are told about the possibility of having tanking, and non-staff dps as being magicka-resourced exclusively for Sorcerer, they generally admit they hadn't even thought of that and like it better in most cases.

There are already three out of four hybrids by design with stamina viable builds a-plenty.

It's not 'selfish' to ask that one of the four classes remain true to what the entire world understand the word 'Sorcerer' to mean...

So, basically, you label any opinion that doesn`t match your agenda as unworthy while simultaniuoulsy claiming to be representative of "the people". Dude, for real?

Each and every post of yours reminds me of some sad amateur politician whos trying to create a following with categorizing people into "us" and "them".

I like playing both, magica and stam sorc, equally. There is no "us" and "them". Both styles are wanted, both styles are needed and both styles have a right to get necessary adjustments to make their builds viable.

The entire game was built up on a hybrid idea.

Actually, you are wrong on several counts.

I have called the idea unrepresentative, not 'unworthy'.

Unlike Erock et al I have at least bothered to ask Sorcerer players in game about this, and got a feel from the 40 or so I've talked to.

I am also the one asking for an entirely unbias poll of the Sorc. population in general on this an a great many other class issues. try reading it...

You'll not find Erock et al doing either of these things by the way...

Why don't you criticise them for being one-sided...?

...because... as you admit it in your post, you are a stamina hybridisation supporter yourself!

You also state the patently untrue 'design philosophy' that the game was 'always meant' to be hybrid. It wasn't - the only thing Zenimax have said about it is AFTER the online campaign to get it put in.

If you can find a credible pre-campaign admission by anyone from Zenimax that the Sorcerer was always meant to be a hybrid - I'll give you guys the floor.

But even should that be true, the class isn't now, nor was it a stamina hybrid at the time most people chose their mains as Sorcerers.

If you truly think only a minority of players want their class to remain the same play-style and concept of character they deliberately CHOSE at the start of the game, have the confidence to explain that logic without assuming you knew Zenimax's mind when the game was created...

There is, in my opinion, no credible evidence that MOST Sorcerer players, now or then, want hybridisation. There is also NO version of suggested hybridisation on these forums as yet, which doesn't cost magicka Sorcerers much needed and wanted improvements to useless magicka morphs.

Stamina hybridisation as currently suggested, robs Peter to pay Paul. It reduces choice in one majority playstyle (the current one) to furnish a minority one (the proposed one). it also sets up a Godmode for stamina Sorcerer in PvP. Ulterior motives much?

Plus of course, and I get weary of explaining this simple fact - tanking and weapon-based dps can be accomplished by magicka morphs to magicka skills uniquely for the Sorcerer. So if, with the slightest bit of imagination, stamina is made irrelevant to furnish all roles for Sorcerers in the game, what are you banging on about stamina for?

Do you like watching green bars deplete more than blue ones? You don't like 'spells'.

Just what is it?

As for the tricks of amateur politicians - it is the most basic trick of all to label others with what you are yourself. Like a simplistic version of 'plausible deniability'.

Dude, for real... indeed!

Wow, you really are a lost cause. Keep on whatever you are doing, have some neat girltalk with your 40 sorc buddies, whatever.

You don`t seem to play the game very much, if you haven`t realized that the concept of two ressources which are shared by definition implies that any build out there is a hybrid, no matter the focus. I`m not talking stam hybrids, I´m talking hybrids.

Even a full magicka sorc has to consider his stam bar to maximize efficiency. And likewise, even a full stam sorc has to consider his magicka bar to play most efficiently. Anything in between is WANTED and gives choices (which is good).

I could go on and tell you that in ES games sorcerers are not in the slightest representing how YOU perceive a sorcerer.

You live in your little, made up dreamworld and try to downtalk players with your pseudo-intellectual semantics, totally ignoring their arguments while subbornly following your agenda.

I have no agenda, I like to play every style, full mag, full stam and everything inbetween. I would like all playstyles to get equal attention. Byrom et al obviously don`t. Does it make me look smart to use "et al", maybe I should use italic, too?

Kindergarden...

BR

Jar_Ek

TBH the sorcerer community was doing better before we dissolved into stamina vs magicka.

The truth is there were different playstyles before 1.6 and the class skills supported more of them better. However with the removal of soft caps, the changes to the buff system, and some class skills have hit different playstyles in different ways. The weapon users have been forced to go down a stamina route and now find the class skills and passives far weaker than when soft caps made everyone a hybrid. The spell and staff users have gone down the magicka route, but are worried that morph changes will limit build options.

Both sides are correct. The issue occurred because of soft cap removal and the introduction of stamina morphs, or lack thereof.

However we should be seeking to find ways to support all playstyles.

And btw, just because you did not create a weapon based sorcerer does not mean it was not a valid choice. So the idea that all sorcerers should be magicka based is highly debatable.

Having said that I am all for innovative solutions if the downsides are properly considered.

CP5

Jar_Ek wrote: »

TBH the sorcerer community was doing better before we dissolved into stamina vs magicka.

The truth is there were different playstyles before 1.6 and the class skills supported more of them better. However with the removal of soft caps, the changes to the buff system, and some class skills have hit different playstyles in different ways. The weapon users have been forced to go down a stamina route and now find the class skills and passives far weaker than when soft caps made everyone a hybrid. The spell and staff users have gone down the magicka route, but are worried that morph changes will limit build options.

Both sides are correct. The issue occurred because of soft cap removal and the introduction of stamina morphs, or lack thereof.

However we should be seeking to find ways to support all playstyles.

And btw, just because you did not create a weapon based sorcerer does not mean it was not a valid choice. So the idea that all sorcerers should be magicka based is highly debatable.

Having said that I am all for innovative solutions if the downsides are properly considered.

1st, this. 2nd, 1.6 made some odd changes to the sorcerer class and i'm trying to bring these changes back up. In ESO Live 11 Eric said that sorcerer's had enough burst damage and they were looking into ways to up sorc sustained dps. However 1.6 gave Crystal Frag procs 20% more damage, buffed Daedric Curses direct damage by 25% an aoe damage by 15%, and changed Expert Mage to reduce its value to all builds that include Storm Calling skills with the blanket cost nerf but also, raising the damage the class can do (very noticeable with the above changes). So in 1.6 they did a few extra changes, but also buffed sorcerer burst even more, letting the games meta move along but not taking the sorcerer with it (except the burst).

byrom101b16_ESO

Jar_Ek wrote: »

TBH the sorcerer community was doing better before we dissolved into stamina vs magicka.

The truth is there were different playstyles before 1.6 and the class skills supported more of them better. However with the removal of soft caps, the changes to the buff system, and some class skills have hit different playstyles in different ways. The weapon users have been forced to go down a stamina route and now find the class skills and passives far weaker than when soft caps made everyone a hybrid. The spell and staff users have gone down the magicka route, but are worried that morph changes will limit build options.

Both sides are correct. The issue occurred because of soft cap removal and the introduction of stamina morphs, or lack thereof.

However we should be seeking to find ways to support all playstyles.

And btw, just because you did not create a weapon based sorcerer does not mean it was not a valid choice. So the idea that all sorcerers should be magicka based is highly debatable.

Having said that I am all for innovative solutions if the downsides are properly considered.

I have suggested innovative solutions - magicka used for weapon dps and tanking.

I have pointed out the flaws in the hybrid case - the creation vastly OP PvP Sorcs (even more so than now) & hybridisation of the sort they call for reducing choice to one per resource build.

When I suggested true choice was best served by three morphs choices or an extra stamina skill line - I was shouted down as 'this was never going to happen'.

When I suggested the issue is actual the ability to fulfil roles, not merely the resource used to achieve it, it was ignored.

When I suggested there were those who dislike the idea of a hybrid, I was told that point of view was 'irrelevant' even when other jumped on a stamina Sorc. thread and supported my take on the issue.

They even declared they knew what Zenimax was going to do and how.

The stamina crowd JUST WANT STAMINA. They are blind to the alternatives and whilst indulging in their own bias, criticise other people's bias and try to marginalise them.

They think 'Stamina' is a 'playstyle' - rather than tank, healer, weapon melee dps, range weapon dps, staff dps etc. The cart is so far ahead of the horse with these guys they forgot the horse is even there.

Oh yes, and my personal favourite - if I use logic, analysis and a strongly argued layered argument, I get accused of being 'intellectual', like its a mistake of some kind to use your brain.

One can be as blind to one's own hypocrisy as one can be to the other side of an argument.

That's why trying to hijack this thread...

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/164667/what-sorcerer-players-really-need#latest

... is an acceptable tactic by those who don't care one jot for the desires of others.

Jar_Ek

Well if I recall correctly, I suggested 3 morphs. I also said I rather liked the war mage passive idea but that it would need to be very carefully considered for balance reasons. In addition making stamina morphs does not automatically make op stamina sorcerers, only if you morphed abilities without considering the impact of that morph.

And just in case anyone is still in the dark, I stand in the middle here. I don't want magicka builds broken but as I do play a stamina sorcerer. I would like to be able to dehybridise myself and go full in stamina and be able to use some class abilities, or be actually viable as a hybrid (ie change the damage formula to support hybrids as well as max stacking builds).

ZOS_MichaelM

We had to remove a couple of posts as they were not in line with our community rules.
Folks, let's bring this discussion back on track. No more sharing of personal opinions on participants of the discussion and increased focus on discussing the topic, otherwise we'll have to close the thread. Thanks.

byrom101b16_ESO

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Well if I recall correctly, I suggested 3 morphs. I also said I rather liked the war mage passive idea but that it would need to be very carefully considered for balance reasons. In addition making stamina morphs does not automatically make op stamina sorcerers, only if you morphed abilities without considering the impact of that morph.

And just in case anyone is still in the dark, I stand in the middle here. I don't want magicka builds broken but as I do play a stamina sorcerer. I would like to be able to dehybridise myself and go full in stamina and be able to use some class abilities, or be actually viable as a hybrid (ie change the damage formula to support hybrids as well as max stacking builds).

Viability as a hybrid is partly dependent on Zenimax dropping the resource = damage formula. It prevents small scale hybridisation from making a build hit like a pillow (as magicka will still be the major resource so the stamina skills will be significantly underpowered), and for some skills which are suggested for change, prevents PvP Sorcerer builds becoming Godmode (the low-resourced defensive abilities of a PvP Sorc. build will become highly resourced at no cost to spike damage output).

There is a third path of course - that of using primarily non-class skills with stamina as their resource and cherry picking the ones that would synergise perfectly with those skills in threads calling for 'modest' (translation - just the skills I need and no more...) stamina hybridisation, regardless of the cost to other players... but these are transparently self-serving.

However! If resource does not add to power, it really does solve some of the issues, and prevents abuses... although not of course the lack of build choice issue it will still make worse...

I've included these facts in previous posts but am yet to see a single die-hard hybridisation fan realise or admit the significance of any of them.

If a few hybrid morphs come along and don't bring hitting power with them, then there will inevitably be follow-up calls like "ok well you gave us a few morphs but we hit like kittens - we want Sorcerers to be proper hybrids with much more emphasis of stamina!".

At this point of course the magicka Sorc. players having had their choices narrowed once more will start getting a lot more vocal in the counter-argument. But for now the sleeping dog generally stays asleep due to any such changes not having come onto the radar for most.

Of course if Zenimax changes the weapon and spellpower formula so it doesn't derive anything from the two main resource stats (lets say it comes from class build passives, or class level formulas for instance) then one of the two core serious hybridisation problems are solved.

But as yet, not a single call for resources to be just the 'buck', but not also the 'bang'.

Perhaps now I've spelled this out on two threads, we can have a more focussed discussion about what will really solve all our collective issues.

But then the people most vocal on these forums, on both sides, and not close to being representative of the real collective issues of the players of the class, no matter how much we think we are right.

Maybe we should have a wide ranging poll!?

.....

Should Zenimax actually have the common sense and the guts to make three morphs for every skill - two morphs using the same resource as the base skill and one using the other resource.... and decouple resource pools from the power stats, then their stated aim of everyone playing how they want to play will be achieved...

... assuming they get the skill utility and damage formulas right.

But that's another story folks! lol

Glurin

Jar_Ek wrote: »

(ie change the damage formula to support hybrids as well as max stacking builds).

That, I think, would go a hell of a lot further in solving the problem than restricting people's options.

I wasn't kidding when I said changing Crystal Blast to a stamina morph would wreck my build. I rely heavily on that skill and I do run a hybrid build. I flat out do not have the stamina to spare for it if it gets changed to cost stamina. Several other morphs would have the same impact as I tend to run with the "unpopular" abilities, both here and in most other games. Such changes would only serve those that stack stamina and be a detriment to everyone else.

And don't anyone give me that "Well you're not playing the way you should be" crap. Playing the way you "should be" is not what the freedom to choose your play style is about, nor it is necessary to be successful. As things are right now, we all have a choice in what our spells do. With these proposed changes of making one morph cost stamina, that choice disappears. If you use magicka, either stacked or as a hybrid, you'd be forced to use a specific morph because you just do not have the resources to support the other. If you stack stamina, you'd still be able to choose, but one would be so vastly superior to the other that you may as well be handcuffed to it. Yeah, you'd have more ability options opened up to you than you did before, but you already had a ton because you had all the weapon and fighter's guild skills available to you.

ESO should not be building itself around Stamina V.S. Magicka. It should be building itself around Stamina OR Magicka. For those not familiar with the intricacies of logic, that's not an exclusive or. It means one, the other, or both.

Cathexis

Certain skills definitely need stamina counterparts

just off the top of my head these definitely needed for sure

Hardened Ward Scaling off Stamina Morph
BE Stamina Morph

Glurin

Cathexis wrote: »

Certain skills definitely need stamina counterparts

just off the top of my head these definitely needed for sure

Hardened Ward Scaling off Stamina Morph
BE Stamina Morph

Yes, because there aren't enough complaints about those particular skills in PvP already. We need stamina sorcerers to make people cry about them as well.

Cathexis

Glurin wrote: »

Yes, because there aren't enough complaints about those particular skills in PvP already. We need stamina sorcerers to make people cry about them as well.

Sounds good to me?

Nutronic

Glurin wrote: »

That, I think, would go a hell of a lot further in solving the problem than restricting people's options.

I wasn't kidding when I said changing Crystal Blast to a stamina morph would wreck my build. I rely heavily on that skill and I do run a hybrid build. I flat out do not have the stamina to spare for it if it gets changed to cost stamina. Several other morphs would have the same impact as I tend to run with the "unpopular" abilities, both here and in most other games. Such changes would only serve those that stack stamina and be a detriment to everyone else.

And don't anyone give me that "Well you're not playing the way you should be" crap. Playing the way you "should be" is not what the freedom to choose your play style is about, nor it is necessary to be successful. As things are right now, we all have a choice in what our spells do. With these proposed changes of making one morph cost stamina, that choice disappears. If you use magicka, either stacked or as a hybrid, you'd be forced to use a specific morph because you just do not have the resources to support the other. If you stack stamina, you'd still be able to choose, but one would be so vastly superior to the other that you may as well be handcuffed to it. Yeah, you'd have more ability options opened up to you than you did before, but you already had a ton because you had all the weapon and fighter's guild skills available to you.

ESO should not be building itself around Stamina V.S. Magicka. It should be building itself around Stamina OR Magicka. For those not familiar with the intricacies of logic, that's not an exclusive or. It means one, the other, or both.

Yeah well I can definitely tell you that the changes in 1.6 killed my pure hybrid tanking and forced me to move more Magicka over Stamina (I still need a few points into stam b/c I don't want to be shard reliant, and blocking DOES cost resources). However, since most of the spells I rely upon to tank come from Magicka (my 35% heal, my Major armor/spell buffs, the stupidly expensive ranged taunt [not a class problem, but still annoying]) I don't have a choice but to g hybrid, or at least semi-hybrid. This is what makes all these "no stamina morphs" or "don't change MY skills, b/c YOU are selfish" look so incredibly ridiculous. Those of us who already push the envelope on what is viable and what isn't, have to learn to change with what we're given and make it work.

Do I mind that my bound armor changed to a stamina cost that potentially screws me over if I ever accidentally drop it in the middle of a fight? No.

Do I mind that my full pet bar lost tons of DPS b/c I need to tank for group content and don't want to respec each time I go soloing or even want to try something new? No.

Heck, I don't even mind in PVP when facing enemy sorcs (omg, yes, sorcs actually do have to fight other sorcs) that as a tank with things the way they are I literally can not kill anyone VR2+ without help? No, in fact that is how it should be. I'm a tank...

I hear about these complaints for "robing peter to pay paul" or "We need more options by taking away 'useless' (sic, non-meta) skill morphs and replacing them with 'better' versions", when all this looks like to me is an unwillingness to either evolve and adapt to the changes in the game or a denial to your fellow players based on how you and a few friends play.

I agree with you on one big point though @Glurin, and that is: "Playing the way you "should be" is not what the freedom to choose your play style is about, nor it is necessary to be successful."

Dragon Knight implies a tough class that is hard to kill.... not a fire mage.
Night Blade implies a sneaky assassin... not a blood mage
Templar. Well I mean come on it's pretty much a cleric, and they do everything well, best of nothing.
Sorcerer implies a mage with inherent magic, but ... well that's it. Maybe it's just me but I'm sensing a pattern here....

I don't understand why other classes get to be so flexible and sometime overpowered in all aspects of the game, but any changes to even try and put sorcerers in their league immediately get shot down (I'm guilty of this too). If people want stamina Morphs and enough ask for it, then let it happen. If it doesn't work, ZOS will just try something different. Clearly the changes they have made didn't take to well, but due to console launch coming up they haven't been able to give them the full attention they need to fixes those problems. This is in all honesty the community's fault for not jumping on PTS and giving them feedback when they basically begged us to do so for weeks leading up to 1.6... but uh that's discussion for another thread.

Cathexis

Easy ways around losing magicka morph options:

-Passive ability that converts all magicka skills to stamina skills
-Surge morph that is a toggle and converts all magicka skills to stamina skills (this would be best implimented if toggles could stay on on weapon flip (which is not a lot to ask))

Glurin

@Nutronic
Adapting to changes is one thing. Being pigeonholed into one of two cookie cutter builds is quite another.

That's what happens when you start taking morphs away and flipping them around to cost a different resource. Use magicka? You MUST use the magicka morph, whatever it does. Use stamina? You MUST use the stamina morph, whatever it does. Use both? Well, you MUST use the magicka morph, whatever it does, because you need what stamina you have for blocking, dodge rolling, break free, etc. Not to mention any weapon skills you might be using.

Jitterbug

Warraxx wrote: »

NB-4 stam morphs
Temp-3 stam morphs
DK-2 stam morphs
Sorc-1 stam morph

see what they did there?

not really, no

Jitterbug

Erock25 wrote: »

I was all over ZOS on the PTS forums trying to figure out why they screwed Sorc out of stamina options and a dev has admitted that was an error

Seems like there's a meme in there somewhere ^^

Cathexis

@glurin look at my post just above your post.

Glurin

Cathexis wrote: »

@glurin look at my post just above your post.

Well, I don't have anything against the general idea of adding a passive or a toggle that switches things around. Such a thing adds more than subtracts from possible builds.

However, it might cause magicka and stamina to lose their separation. In fact it could easily result in magicka being entirely worthless because you can get everything magicka does with stamina plus just about everything else. So where's the incentive to invest in magicka at all?

Jar_Ek

@Cathexis That wouldn't really work because then you would have no use for magicka at all... and yet have loads of points in it. Plus all the scaling would also have to swap. And you could get some very op builds potentially.

The war mage passive idea was better (use 50% magicka for stamina abilities and scale off magicka if I recall correctly), but it still would have balance issues.

Nutronic

@Glurin
Okay, but by that logic going stamina and 2H pigeon holds you to only a few options. Some abilities only work in certain situations, and so long as people are playing a changing game there is always going to be a "best pick". Besides, not all Magicka skills need to be stamina based to make use of their utility (Surge, BE, TP, BA, etc.) for stamina builds and it should be vice versa for magicka.

Cathexis

@glurin you are making the assumption that one is putting their points into magika simply because they are a sorc. I'm not -- I'm running full on stamina stack, why? Because the alternative is losing my racial passives. I'd be the first to say its not ideal for sure but if I can build an infinite dodge roller that might be effective with a BoL. Some of us don't want to stack magika.

@nutronic I agree with what you are saying, the buff abilities that cost mana are a good example of magika use as stamina weilder.


Also...
...The more I look at it, the more I think that surge should be a toggle...

Glurin

Cathexis wrote: »

@glurin you are making the assumption that one is putting their points into magika simply because they are a sorc. I'm not -- I'm running full on stamina stack, why? Because the alternative is losing my racial passives. I'd be the first to say its not ideal for sure but if I can build an infinite dodge roller that might be effective with a BoL. Some of us don't want to stack magika.

No assumption. Just basic logic. If you could get $10 for mowing one lawn, or $10 and a meal and a movie ticket to any movie you want for mowing the same lawn, which deal would you choose?

Its the same idea here with your passive/toggle. For the price of one skill point, you'd get everything magicka has to offer plus everything stamina has and you'd only have to stack stamina. If you go magicka, you get the soup *** yelling "NO STAMINA SKILLS FOR YOU!!!"

Frankly, as it is now, if you want to stack stamina then go for it. But don't be expecting or demanding to be able to do everything magicka as well. Nobody that stacks magicka is expecting to be an ace with stamina skills.

byrom101b16_ESO

Cathexis wrote: »

Certain skills definitely need stamina counterparts

just off the top of my head these definitely needed for sure

Hardened Ward Scaling off Stamina Morph
BE Stamina Morph

Another proponent of the Godmode PvP Sorcerer build I see...

byrom101b16_ESO

Cathexis wrote: »

Easy ways around losing magicka morph options:

-Passive ability that converts all magicka skills to stamina skills
-Surge morph that is a toggle and converts all magicka skills to stamina skills (this would be best implimented if toggles could stay on on weapon flip (which is not a lot to ask))

Simpler would be to replace magicka and stamina all together and have a universal 'power' stat instead.

You want to play something that un-TES-like?

I do wonder on how the game population would break down on that one...