Sorcerer - Lack of stamina morphs

CP5

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

What comes to mind when you hear the word sorcerer.

If its anything other than a robed, bearded man thowing a fireball, or raising the dead, you need to get your head examined. In short, this is what i think of all of you who wish to ruin what is clearly been apart of the series physics forever, and the fact that ZOS caved to it.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-LHqF8asIw

You do know what the sorcerer, as a class in the elder scrolls series, has been for every game up to eso, right? There are many classes in the series and the one you described was the mage, the sorcerer does use magic but is not the same class.

Mayrael

@Erock25 Well im afraid that ZoS only mess up things thats all. They will make random skills stamina based and there u go, everyone loose. And the worse thing is, that they can take some realy important morphs from us (magica wielders).

Cathexis

Technically there are no classes in the es series at least dating back to oblivion possibly morrowind but I can't remember.

Regardless it should have no baring on whether or not stamina morphs should be a thing for sorcs. This game is here and now its own entity separate from previous games and the devs ultimately make the decisions irrespective of whether or not it respects the es tradition.

Glurin

Erock25 wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

What comes to mind when you hear the word sorcerer.

If its anything other than a robed, bearded man thowing a fireball, or raising the dead, you need to get your head examined. In short, this is what i think of all of you who wish to ruin what is clearly been apart of the series physics forever, and the fact that ZOS caved to it.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-LHqF8asIw

I hate the 'sorcerer is supposed to be THIS' argument but you are aware that traditionally in TES, Sorcerers are Heavy Armor wearing, 1 hand weapon wielding mages that do not specialize in destruction magic, right?

"I hate the 'sorcerer is supposed to be THIS' argument but you are aware that traditionally in TES, Sorcerers are Heavy Armor wearing, 1 hand weapon wielding mages that do not specialize in destruction magic, right?"

"...Sorcerers are Heavy Armor wearing, 1 hand weapon wielding mages..."

"...Sorcerers are...MAGES..."

Erock25 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

A bad idea is a bad idea, and I will call it a bad idea regardless of how arrogant and condescending you are.

Better that the flaws get acknowledged now than complained about later.

Keep using Crystal Blast, friend. Your opinions on class balance are very important to me.

Oh it's become abundantly clear that the only opinion that matters to you is your own and that of your fellow min/maxer yes men.

I probably care more about class balance than the two of you combined. But to me, balance is about more than having just one or two builds than can theoretically do the same ungodly amount of DPS as one or two builds from the other classes. Such a thing isn't even in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise. What we need is a variety of builds that are viable. Truly viable. Not given a pass/fail of only the one that does the most damage is worth anything.

Seriously you believe that being able to run Crystal Blast as a magicka build instead of Crystal Frag is championing more than one viable build over people who are suggestion viable stamina, tank, and heal builds to go with an already strong magicka build? What we need is a variety of builds that are viable ..... UHHHH my point exactly. You are the one arguing against that.

What you seem unwilling to accept is that your hack job of a solution that is changing morphs to stamina resource does not serve that purpose because in your mind there is only one possible build that is viable. To you, anything that doesn't get a DPS to the very top of the damage meter is something worthless and should be disposed of, and handing it over to stamina is a good way to do it. But all that accomplishes is removing a ton of magicka builds to create one or two stamina builds that are virtually identical to the magicka version.

There's a far better approach that creates at least a dozen different viable builds, half of them stamina, and it doesn't even require switching skill resources or making any major changes to the mechanics of any skills. The goal can be achieved with fine tuning of the class and/or the overall combat mechanics.

CP5

Glurin wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

What comes to mind when you hear the word sorcerer.

If its anything other than a robed, bearded man thowing a fireball, or raising the dead, you need to get your head examined. In short, this is what i think of all of you who wish to ruin what is clearly been apart of the series physics forever, and the fact that ZOS caved to it.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-LHqF8asIw

I hate the 'sorcerer is supposed to be THIS' argument but you are aware that traditionally in TES, Sorcerers are Heavy Armor wearing, 1 hand weapon wielding mages that do not specialize in destruction magic, right?

"I hate the 'sorcerer is supposed to be THIS' argument but you are aware that traditionally in TES, Sorcerers are Heavy Armor wearing, 1 hand weapon wielding mages that do not specialize in destruction magic, right?"

"...Sorcerers are Heavy Armor wearing, 1 hand weapon wielding mages..."

"...Sorcerers are...MAGES..."

Erock25 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

A bad idea is a bad idea, and I will call it a bad idea regardless of how arrogant and condescending you are.

Better that the flaws get acknowledged now than complained about later.

Keep using Crystal Blast, friend. Your opinions on class balance are very important to me.

Oh it's become abundantly clear that the only opinion that matters to you is your own and that of your fellow min/maxer yes men.

I probably care more about class balance than the two of you combined. But to me, balance is about more than having just one or two builds than can theoretically do the same ungodly amount of DPS as one or two builds from the other classes. Such a thing isn't even in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise. What we need is a variety of builds that are viable. Truly viable. Not given a pass/fail of only the one that does the most damage is worth anything.

Seriously you believe that being able to run Crystal Blast as a magicka build instead of Crystal Frag is championing more than one viable build over people who are suggestion viable stamina, tank, and heal builds to go with an already strong magicka build? What we need is a variety of builds that are viable ..... UHHHH my point exactly. You are the one arguing against that.

What you seem unwilling to accept is that your hack job of a solution that is changing morphs to stamina resource does not serve that purpose because in your mind there is only one possible build that is viable. To you, anything that doesn't get a DPS to the very top of the damage meter is something worthless and should be disposed of, and handing it over to stamina is a good way to do it. But all that accomplishes is removing a ton of magicka builds to create one or two stamina builds that are virtually identical to the magicka version.

There's a far better approach that creates at least a dozen different viable builds, half of them stamina, and it doesn't even require switching skill resources or making any major changes to the mechanics of any skills. The goal can be achieved with fine tuning of the class and/or the overall combat mechanics.

Should I not bring up the fact that traditional sorcerer's in past elder scrolls games were unable to use any type of armor other than heavy? Or that they had an extensive selection of weapons when most classes were restricted, or that they have always had much less, if not no magicka regeneration? The mage is its own separate class in the elder scrolls series, the sorcerer specializes in Magic (as opposed to Combat and Stealth) but if anything they are the mage equivalent of a tank, and needed weapons for when they weren't fed magicka from their enemies, and armor so they could get close enough to use it.

Glurin

CP5 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

What comes to mind when you hear the word sorcerer.

If its anything other than a robed, bearded man thowing a fireball, or raising the dead, you need to get your head examined. In short, this is what i think of all of you who wish to ruin what is clearly been apart of the series physics forever, and the fact that ZOS caved to it.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-LHqF8asIw

I hate the 'sorcerer is supposed to be THIS' argument but you are aware that traditionally in TES, Sorcerers are Heavy Armor wearing, 1 hand weapon wielding mages that do not specialize in destruction magic, right?

"I hate the 'sorcerer is supposed to be THIS' argument but you are aware that traditionally in TES, Sorcerers are Heavy Armor wearing, 1 hand weapon wielding mages that do not specialize in destruction magic, right?"

"...Sorcerers are Heavy Armor wearing, 1 hand weapon wielding mages..."

"...Sorcerers are...MAGES..."

Erock25 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

A bad idea is a bad idea, and I will call it a bad idea regardless of how arrogant and condescending you are.

Better that the flaws get acknowledged now than complained about later.

Keep using Crystal Blast, friend. Your opinions on class balance are very important to me.

Oh it's become abundantly clear that the only opinion that matters to you is your own and that of your fellow min/maxer yes men.

I probably care more about class balance than the two of you combined. But to me, balance is about more than having just one or two builds than can theoretically do the same ungodly amount of DPS as one or two builds from the other classes. Such a thing isn't even in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls franchise. What we need is a variety of builds that are viable. Truly viable. Not given a pass/fail of only the one that does the most damage is worth anything.

Seriously you believe that being able to run Crystal Blast as a magicka build instead of Crystal Frag is championing more than one viable build over people who are suggestion viable stamina, tank, and heal builds to go with an already strong magicka build? What we need is a variety of builds that are viable ..... UHHHH my point exactly. You are the one arguing against that.

What you seem unwilling to accept is that your hack job of a solution that is changing morphs to stamina resource does not serve that purpose because in your mind there is only one possible build that is viable. To you, anything that doesn't get a DPS to the very top of the damage meter is something worthless and should be disposed of, and handing it over to stamina is a good way to do it. But all that accomplishes is removing a ton of magicka builds to create one or two stamina builds that are virtually identical to the magicka version.

There's a far better approach that creates at least a dozen different viable builds, half of them stamina, and it doesn't even require switching skill resources or making any major changes to the mechanics of any skills. The goal can be achieved with fine tuning of the class and/or the overall combat mechanics.

Should I not bring up the fact that traditional sorcerer's in past elder scrolls games were unable to use any type of armor other than heavy? Or that they had an extensive selection of weapons when most classes were restricted, or that they have always had much less, if not no magicka regeneration? The mage is its own separate class in the elder scrolls series, the sorcerer specializes in Magic (as opposed to Combat and Stealth) but if anything they are the mage equivalent of a tank, and needed weapons for when they weren't fed magicka from their enemies, and armor so they could get close enough to use it.

No, you shouldn't. Because it proves nothing.

See, your problem here is you're trying to separate the mage from the sorcerer and somehow keep the spellcasting. But you can't. Sorcerers are mages. Mages cast spells. Spells are cast with magicka. That's the way it works in the Elder Scrolls universe. Even warriors and thieves and assassins all have to use magicka if they want to cast spells. The fact that a sorcerer picks up a sword instead of a staff doesn't suddenly rewrite the rules of magic to let him shoot fireballs by flexing his pecs or summon a daedroth by striking a heroic pose.

Yes, magic has rules. (ZOMG!! What a shocker! ) If it didn't, then things would get incredibly boring very fast because any problem could be solved with a wave of the hand. How successful would Harry Potter have been, do you think, if in the first five minutes of the movie he just cast a spell that made all bad wizards cease to exist forever? Or how about Star Wars. What if Obi Wan just used the force to throw the Death Star into a nearby sun instead of going through all that nonsense of boarding the station and escaping and dieing and flying through a crevice shooting womp rats? Boy wouldn't that make for an exciting movie.

Varicite

Glurin wrote: »

See, your problem here is you're trying to separate the mage from the sorcerer and somehow keep the spellcasting.

Strange, TES games tell a different story. You can keep arguing that fact until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that Sorcerers were never Mages. These are two completely separate class archetypes in TES universe.

For some reason, you can't seem to separate these things in your mind, because you see them as the same thing. But they aren't. They never have been.

I suppose you'd be fine w/ ZOS taking away your access to anything but heavy armor and melee weapons and neutering your regeneration to the point where you rely solely on heavy attacks to sustain.

Because that's traditional.

Erock25

Glurin wrote: »

"...Sorcerers are...MAGES..."

That use melee weapons and heavy armor. I like how you broke down my quote to only one part that served your needs and then inserted a gif like you were right. That is about as clever as using crystal blast.

Glurin wrote: »

What you seem unwilling to accept is that your hack job of a solution that is changing morphs to stamina resource does not serve that purpose because in your mind there is only one possible build that is viable.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say it, and this will be the last time because you bring literally nothing to the debate besides repeating the same wrong statements over and over, but I am asking for multiple viable builds. I'm literally asking for the opposite of what you are accusing me of and I can't fathom how you could get this wrong. Did you look at my suggested changes? I improve magicka non-pet DPS, magicka pet DPS, stamina DPS, tanking, and healing.

Glurin wrote: »

To you, anything that doesn't get a DPS to the very top of the damage meter is something worthless and should be disposed of, and handing it over to stamina is a good way to do it. But all that accomplishes is removing a ton of magicka builds to create one or two stamina builds that are virtually identical to the magicka version.

If you do not balance for the top capability of a class, then there is no balance at all. You are aware that of the changes I suggest, the only negative for magicka builds is they lost Crystal Blast and they lose Clannfear while gaining a much higher DPS Volatile Familiar which just fyi, also tanks quite well and actually provides something useful to the magicka sorc when it dies. Can you please elaborate on how my suggest changes removes a ton of magicka builds? If you are unable to elaborate, can you admit you are just spouting hyperbole?

Glurin wrote: »

There's a far better approach that creates at least a dozen different viable builds, half of them stamina, and it doesn't even require switching skill resources or making any major changes to the mechanics of any skills. The goal can be achieved with fine tuning of the class and/or the overall combat mechanics.

Sounds like you are in the camp that is advocating for basically what amounts to a complete class and mechanic overall for the entire game. If you have forgotten, this already happened in 1.6, and it is unlikely to happen again anytime soon. In the meantime, it would be great if Sorc got a few more stamina morphs.

PKMN12

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I support Sorcerers getting stamina options as long as they don't screw around with the spells I currently use. That's really the problem here. We have already gotten used to our builds post 1.6 and for half of them to suddenly scale off a different pool is going to be a real problem for a lot of people. I feel like they already lost their window to do this without negatively impacting people that already play sorcs. Best case scenario is that they tweak them to give some sort of passive bonus to stamina based attacks without changing which pool they base them on.

The question here is:

Why do Sorcerers get a free pass when no other class did when it comes to converting class damage skills to stamina?

What makes Sorcs so special?

I am POSITIVE that DKs would have absolutely LOVED to have this, rather than watch stam builds get Unstable Flame.

I am POSITIVE that NBs would have ADORED to have this, rather than watch stam builds get Ambush.

But Sorcs can just say "Yeah, not US, we are special snowflakes, and not only do stam builds not get ANY damage abilities, but if they ever DO want to convert something to stam, you have to give us THREE morphs instead of the way you did every other class."

Or "well, sure I GUESS you can convert something to Stamina, but ONLY if magicka Sorcs do not lose access to ANYTHING AT ALL".

...why do you believe that you deserve this?

What makes you better than everybody else?

So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka?

cause it has the name "SORCERER" which in all fantasy games means MAgic-user of some kind, so if they were expecting a "Stamina-using class" they are clearly lieing about that since no one their right mind lables the name Sorc with a warrior type of character.

CP5

Varicite wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

See, your problem here is you're trying to separate the mage from the sorcerer and somehow keep the spellcasting.

Strange, TES games tell a different story. You can keep arguing that fact until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that Sorcerers were never Mages. These are two completely separate class archetypes in TES universe.

For some reason, you can't seem to separate these things in your mind, because you see them as the same thing. But they aren't. They never have been.

I suppose you'd be fine w/ ZOS taking away your access to anything but heavy armor and melee weapons and neutering your regeneration to the point where you rely solely on heavy attacks to sustain.

Because that's traditional.

I was going to reply to Glurin's reply to me directly but realize that would accomplish little. Seems people don't understand just how many classes are in the elder scrolls series and how different each one is. I would honestly love to see the sorcerer in eso better reflect past incarnations of the class, like by changing the Capacitor passive to add magicka resist and magicka absorb the less total magicka the sorcerer has, akin to how they worked in Arena. But I guess as long as people are demanding the class be "the mage" because they are the only class wearing robes on character create we likely won't see that.

exiledtyrant

I would like to point out that this "sorcerers are mages" argument pops up every few pages in a stamina sorcerer thread . Even after supplying countless examples that lead to a conclusion of the contrary this tired argument is plugged. The only thing that hasn't been provided is an actual developer coming to the thread and saying so themselves at which point I'm sure the people clinging to this argument would still just get huffy and say it doesn't matter. Quite simply it has devolved into classic troll bait. Why? Because it's argument for arguments sake and nothing more. These design decisions have been developed and supported by the devs and it is going to happen.

I would ask restraint for those trying to refute an argument that isn't there as the end game is not actually trying to be proven right but to get this thread locked due to so many distractions from the main discussion.

Cathexis

Just because sorcerers use magika doesn't mean that casting some spells might not require endurance (which by definition would be stamina).

Google the definition of stamina.

Oh damn I just killed every argument that sorcerers are magika class users only.

Glurin

OFFS. It's basic logic people!

All dogs are animals.

Animals are not dogs.

Are dogs no longer animals? Those of you saying sorcerers are not mages seem to think so.

Wearing something other than a robe and picking up a weapon that is not a magic stick of some description does not in any way make a mage not a mage. Just like putting a sweater on a dog does not somehow make that dog not an animal.

Erock25 wrote: »

If you do not balance for the top capability of a class, then there is no balance at all.

And that right there is why you are wrong. You start with the premise that only one build, the top FotM DPS or tanking or healing build, is viable. Your idea of adding more viable builds is nothing more than creating another cookie cutter and/or improving the existing one at the expense of everything else, including the integrity of the lore and the established laws of physics for the game universe.

There is more to the world than how big the numbers are that fly across your screen.

Cody

Varicite wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka?

Why do people keep perpetuating this garbage? All classes were 100% magicka.

As an aside, I did actually try to find some post-1.6 stamina Sorc builds that were comparable DPS to other classes' stam builds (I didn't find any, of course).

Among the threads I did find was a build that you had posted for somebody looking to roll stam Sorc. I checked it out.

It had a whopping TWO Sorc abilities on its bars: Bound Armaments and Summon Storm Atronach.

That pretty much sums up every other build that I found for post-1.6 stam Sorcs too, and not a single build that was comparable to other classes for HM Trials.

I have to laugh at just how depressing the situation is, and just how vehemently opposed to giving up ANY of their toys the other Sorcerers are.

so if i were to make a stamina sorc right now, i would be screwed?

Varicite

Cody wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka?

Why do people keep perpetuating this garbage? All classes were 100% magicka.

As an aside, I did actually try to find some post-1.6 stamina Sorc builds that were comparable DPS to other classes' stam builds (I didn't find any, of course).

Among the threads I did find was a build that you had posted for somebody looking to roll stam Sorc. I checked it out.

It had a whopping TWO Sorc abilities on its bars: Bound Armaments and Summon Storm Atronach.

That pretty much sums up every other build that I found for post-1.6 stam Sorcs too, and not a single build that was comparable to other classes for HM Trials.

I have to laugh at just how depressing the situation is, and just how vehemently opposed to giving up ANY of their toys the other Sorcerers are.

so if i were to make a stamina sorc right now, i would be screwed?

Depending on what you wanted to do w/ it, perhaps.

If you're just messing around doing solo questing or casual PvP, you'd be fine. If you want to be at the top of the leaderboards as a stamina dps, or excel in PvP compared to other classes, then.. yeah, pretty much screwed.

Erock25

Cody wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka?

Why do people keep perpetuating this garbage? All classes were 100% magicka.

As an aside, I did actually try to find some post-1.6 stamina Sorc builds that were comparable DPS to other classes' stam builds (I didn't find any, of course).

Among the threads I did find was a build that you had posted for somebody looking to roll stam Sorc. I checked it out.

It had a whopping TWO Sorc abilities on its bars: Bound Armaments and Summon Storm Atronach.

That pretty much sums up every other build that I found for post-1.6 stam Sorcs too, and not a single build that was comparable to other classes for HM Trials.

I have to laugh at just how depressing the situation is, and just how vehemently opposed to giving up ANY of their toys the other Sorcerers are.

so if i were to make a stamina sorc right now, i would be screwed?

No because of 2H and roll dodge.

Cathexis

I'd like to point out that roll dodge is going to get the nerf bat and THEN you;d be screwed. Also 2H is garbage compared to the current damage stacking procs with shards.

Cathexis

@glurin putting a sweater on a dog definitely makes that dog more than an animal.

Just look at these photos of dogs wearing clothes






....
AND TO PROVE MY POINT

Nutronic

Sorcerer (Dungeons and Dragons)
A sorcerer, sometimes known as a sorceress if female, is a wielder of arcane magic bound only by their own willpower. Unlike most other arcane spellcasters, particularly the wizards they are often compared with, sorcerers have innate magical ability and are noted for their lack of study in obtaining such power. And while a wizard focuses on isolating their foes and diminishing their ability to fight, a sorcerer prefers to unleash his or her full power, without restraint, blasting their enemies into oblivion. The magic a sorcerer wields is, as a result, intensely powerful though often somewhat unpredictable, much like a barbarian in the heat of a rage.[1]

This is from the 3rd edition of Dungeons and Dragons. This would be the most traditional definition of role. Basically a person who casts magic. I picked this one specifically picked this one and this picture because it was my first ever fantastical idea of a sorc and what always comes to mind. Mostly unarmored, wielding weapons, and casting spells innately.

The Elder scrolls changes it up just a little bit with each game, but the core idea is that it is a Mage, Magic specialized warrior who siphons magic in battle. However, the definition varies from the traditional sense by making armor and weapons a large part of the class play style. In fact, Morrowind points out that they rely mostly on summons and enchantments. Over time, the class shifted from being less traditional to something more in between a battle mage and spell sword:

Sorcerer (Arena)
Sorcerers are a strange breed of magic users. They are those born with the potential of casting spells, but with no power to generate spell points internally. This does not make them any less powerful; in fact, Sorcerers have the potential to be the most powerful of all the Mage classes. This is because of the unique way in which they manipulate magic. Sorcerers are in essence magical batteries. They absorb spell points from spells that are targeted at them. Sorcerers may absorb up to triple their Intelligence in spell points. If a spell is absorbed, the Sorcerer takes no damage, but instead adds the spell's total power points, divided by the Sorcerer's level, to his/her spell points. These points are permanent until used. If the Sorcerer fails to absorb a directed spell, they take the normal effects, whatever they may be. The chance a Sorcerer will absorb the spell is equal to the sum of his Intelligence and Willpower divided by two. Sorcerers do not regenerate spell points and they do not absorb points from their own spells. If a Sorcerer has absorbed spell points to his/her maximum, he/she will be unable to absorb more spells, and will take damage from spells just as any other character. Regardless of these restrictions, they have the ability to cast more powerful spells because when they are fully charged, they have more spell points than any other Mage class. They can therefore cast more powerful spells at lower levels, provided that the spell is in their spellbook.

Sorcerer (Daggerfall)
Sorcerers are quite adept at the manipulation of magic, although they do not generate their own magical energy. Rather, they absorb the energy of spells cast at them, and use this energy to power their own spells.

Sorcerer (Morrowind)
Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos.
Specialization: Magic

Sorcerer (Oblivion)
Besting the most well-equipped fighters, they rely on the spells of the mystic arts. Unique to these mages is the bodily stamina to be armed with the thickest armor.

@Glurin is mostly right if you're just going based on lore. Sorcerers ARE MAGES, who DO RELY ON MAGIC. The caveat to that statement though is they use HEAVY ARMOR and FIGHT WITH WEAPONS. The lore team at ZOS picked the sorcerer as opposed to the Mage, Battlemage, Witchhunter, etc because they wanted to maximize the RP flexibility of what the class is and how it's played.

In my opinion @Jar_Ek has the right idea by suggesting changes/additional passives that make the class friendlier to tanking and melee dps. In Effect, there should be more passive spells or abilities that require magic, but enhance stamina or even a skill or two that allows the sorcerer to fight in the heat of battle just as well as a Templar or Nightblade. (I should add that by lore standards, Dark Exchange and Rebate are class breaking, lol)

This is my opinion, but going by the lore this is the most logical outcome that ZOS will be taking.

Speaking strictly from a game play point of view, sorcs need more stamina abilities to keep the class appealing to everyone. Right now, I wouldn't pick a sorcerer I don't know to DPS or tank for me in PVE with high level content. The class lacks a cost effective self heal, strong physical damage mitigation (like corrosive armor), and appealing set of melee weapon damage scaling abilities.

Changing passives is more likely than adding, but the same thing goes for abilities as well. Perhaps a middle ground can be reached if Magicka sorcs could recommend a skill (offensive or defensive) they wouldn't mind scaling from stamina that they could potentially use as well.

Cody

Varicite wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka?

Why do people keep perpetuating this garbage? All classes were 100% magicka.

As an aside, I did actually try to find some post-1.6 stamina Sorc builds that were comparable DPS to other classes' stam builds (I didn't find any, of course).

Among the threads I did find was a build that you had posted for somebody looking to roll stam Sorc. I checked it out.

It had a whopping TWO Sorc abilities on its bars: Bound Armaments and Summon Storm Atronach.

That pretty much sums up every other build that I found for post-1.6 stam Sorcs too, and not a single build that was comparable to other classes for HM Trials.

I have to laugh at just how depressing the situation is, and just how vehemently opposed to giving up ANY of their toys the other Sorcerers are.

so if i were to make a stamina sorc right now, i would be screwed?

Depending on what you wanted to do w/ it, perhaps.

If you're just messing around doing solo questing or casual PvP, you'd be fine. If you want to be at the top of the leaderboards as a stamina dps, or excel in PvP compared to other classes, then.. yeah, pretty much screwed.

I was thinking about making a stamina sorc, but that will be difficult due to the lack of decent stamina morphs.

still i suppose i can figure something out.

Glurin

Nutronic wrote: »

@Glurin is mostly right if you're just going based on lore. Sorcerers ARE MAGES, who DO RELY ON MAGIC. The caveat to that statement though is they use HEAVY ARMOR and FIGHT WITH WEAPONS. The lore team at ZOS picked the sorcerer as opposed to the Mage, Battlemage, Witchhunter, etc because they wanted to maximize the RP flexibility of what the class is and how it's played.

There is no caveat. A mage that casts a lightning bolt is still a mage and still casts it the same way regardless of whether he's wearing a tin can or a bath robe or is running around naked with a cheese wheel on his head throwing hamsters at people. The type of armor or weapon has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not a person is a mage, just as robes and a big stick does not make a warrior something other than a warrior.

Look, what I'm really getting at here is that there is a set of well established rules regarding the workings of magic within the Elder Scrolls universe and they should not be simply ignored just because somebody's axe isn't hitting hard enough.

Speaking strictly from a game play point of view, sorcs need more stamina abilities to keep the class appealing to everyone. Right now, I wouldn't pick a sorcerer I don't know to DPS or tank for me in PVE with high level content. The class lacks a cost effective self heal, strong physical damage mitigation (like corrosive armor), and appealing set of melee weapon damage scaling abilities.

Changing passives is more likely than adding, but the same thing goes for abilities as well. Perhaps a middle ground can be reached if Magicka sorcs could recommend a skill (offensive or defensive) they wouldn't mind scaling from stamina that they could potentially use as well.

That middle ground starts with the premise that there must be a skill converted to scale from stamina. It's a bit like having someone insist on cutting off your leg, then offering a compromise of letting you pick which leg he cuts off.

Sorcerers don't need more stamina abilities. What they need is better synergy between class skills and existing stamina skills, among other things. Many of the skills that are obviously intended to work with stamina focused builds either don't work or are too expensive for them to use. How about we fix those before discussing which limb to do without.

Nutronic

Glurin wrote: »

There is no caveat. A mage that casts a lightning bolt is still a mage and still casts it the same way regardless of whether he's wearing a tin can or a bath robe or is running around naked with a cheese wheel on his head throwing hamsters at people. The type of armor or weapon has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not a person is a mage, just as robes and a big stick does not make a warrior something other than a warrior.

Look, what I'm really getting at here is that there is a set of well established rules regarding the workings of magic within the Elder Scrolls universe and they should not be simply ignored just because somebody's axe isn't hitting hard enough.

You should read the Oblivion description again. It clearly takes stamina to wield those heavy objects, why shouldn't you be able to focus your magical energies into your strength? Breath weapons have long been considered feats (aka non-spells) for many years, it wouldn't be too blasphemous to add something like that.

However, I concede that most people are just looking for more power to add to their DPS. Personally, I just want more utility. Sorcerers could so some interesting enchanting like spells that cast from your magicka pool but enhance your weapon power, stamina regen, or weapon critical.

Glurin wrote: »

That middle ground starts with the premise that there must be a skill converted to scale from stamina. It's a bit like having someone insist on cutting off your leg, then offering a compromise of letting you pick which leg he cuts off.

Sorcerers don't need more stamina abilities. What they need is better synergy between class skills and existing stamina skills, among other things. Many of the skills that are obviously intended to work with stamina focused builds either don't work or are too expensive for them to use. How about we fix those before discussing which limb to do without.

If you're already a leper though, it really doesn't matter which limb you get cut off. Your body is rotting from leprosy, and no one wants to be near you. Might as well get it replaced with something you can actually use rather than carry around more useless junk.

I couldn't agree more that there needs to be better synergy between various class skills, but at the cost of what? Making a magicka dominant class that sucks at healing, sucks at tanking, and still comes in 3rd with it's DPS? Besides, adding a skill that scales off of stamina but still servers a utility purpose harms no one. Arguably Critical Surge is a weapon powered ability that scales off of stamina due to the nature of brutality. I'd even go as far to ask why this doesn't just cost stamina to begin with (well it's a mage class so, whatever).

I would prefer to expand upon this line of thinking: "Many of the skills that are obviously intended to work with stamina focused builds either don't work or are too expensive for them to use. How about we fix those before discussing which limb to do without."

Please elaborate.

exiledtyrant

Cody wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

So why should sorcs be the only one's who have to go through this change again for the small portion of people that created sorcerers without realizing the class has a bias for magicka?

Why do people keep perpetuating this garbage? All classes were 100% magicka.

As an aside, I did actually try to find some post-1.6 stamina Sorc builds that were comparable DPS to other classes' stam builds (I didn't find any, of course).

Among the threads I did find was a build that you had posted for somebody looking to roll stam Sorc. I checked it out.

It had a whopping TWO Sorc abilities on its bars: Bound Armaments and Summon Storm Atronach.

That pretty much sums up every other build that I found for post-1.6 stam Sorcs too, and not a single build that was comparable to other classes for HM Trials.

I have to laugh at just how depressing the situation is, and just how vehemently opposed to giving up ANY of their toys the other Sorcerers are.

so if i were to make a stamina sorc right now, i would be screwed?

Depending on what you wanted to do w/ it, perhaps.

If you're just messing around doing solo questing or casual PvP, you'd be fine. If you want to be at the top of the leaderboards as a stamina dps, or excel in PvP compared to other classes, then.. yeah, pretty much screwed.

I was thinking about making a stamina sorc, but that will be difficult due to the lack of decent stamina morphs.

still i suppose i can figure something out.

The problem with making a stamina sorcerer is that your going to find only 4 passives that are useful for melee game play and only 1 passive that is directly tied to stamina. Out of the 4 skills directed towards stamina sorcerer 2 of them are magicka and eat 80% of your pool even after reduction. Dark deal is still to flawed and bound armor is just a flat stat boost that most classes enjoy without actually having to take up 2 slots.

What your left with is a generic weapon user with no real class identity. You can ride the success of two handed like every other class but it defeats the point of rolling a sorc at all. Other classes at least have abilities to set them apart and better passives for the melee playstyle. I would take a look at other classes to see if your sure you want to try melee sorc at the moment. Other classes have access to our buffs and then some without being redundant or poorly supported.

Glurin

Nutronic wrote: »

I couldn't agree more that there needs to be better synergy between various class skills, but at the cost of what? Making a magicka dominant class that sucks at healing, sucks at tanking, and still comes in 3rd with it's DPS?

Actually, solving the DPS, healing and tanking issues would go a long way in solving the stamina build issues as well if done correctly. Switching things to stamina to make stamina builds better, on the other hand, does virtually nothing to solve the magicka healing, DPS and tanking issues. Worse than nothing when you think about it.

I'd rather kill two birds with one stone than kill one bird and a couple of the neighbors with two boulders.

Nutronic wrote: »

I would prefer to expand upon this line of thinking: "Many of the skills that are obviously intended to work with stamina focused builds either don't work or are too expensive for them to use. How about we fix those before discussing which limb to do without."

Please elaborate.

Well, take for example, Encase. Mid range cone attack that roots an opponent to the ground. Pretty handy feature for anybody. Magicka or stamina. Except that it's slow and easy to avoid or just flat out misses the target. Dark Talons, by comparison, has a shorter range, but is difficult to avoid and hits everyone nearby and deals damage and has a synergy and costs less to cast. And that's before you morph it.

Then you have lightning form. A 15-23 second Armor and spell resistance boost and a short range AoE centered on yourself. Pretty clearly a melee range ability. But it's relatively pricey for the damage it does when you're talking about stamina builds. In theory it could be a good way to trigger Disintegrate, but Disintegrate currently only comes into play when the target's health is already low and then only has a 6% chance to actually do anything.

Dark Deal, well, it suffers all the same problems that the magicka version does. Reliable self heal though. So long as you politely ask your opponent to stop beating on you for a few seconds anyway.

Passives could also have some adjustments made to benefit stamina more than they do currently. Just off the top of my head, Exploitation could maybe have weapon critical added to it in addition to spell critical.

Pets, in general, need some kind of adjustment. The straightforward solution as far as stamina builds is concerned is just to have them scale off of either a sum of magicka and stamina or just scale off of whichever is higher. I don't believe any of them should be switched to stamina. They should still be primarily magicka based. But something else needs done IMO so that people aren't just using them for things like heal on death. That should be a contingency bonus rather than the purpose of having pets.

byrom101b16_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

No sir. All you are doing is whining about not having stamina options and you don't care how it effects people who are playing the class and enjoying it. Instead of being a child about it, why don't you provide some actual ideas of how the morphs could/should look if they were divvied up between the two. Then maybe you might have less opposition from those of us that don't want our specs (that we worked hard on) destroyed because you want to hijack the class. I have already said that I wouldn't mind giving up streak. It's seems like a good viable stamina based ability. It could cost stamina, the damage could scale off of stamina and it could be used as a great gap closer for stamina based attacks. There I am trying to meet you part way here. Please start acting like an adult come up with some real solutions.

You're right that I don't care very much how it effects the people who have always had everything when it comes to Sorcerer skills, especially when those same people only seem willing to give up the abilities that they consider too subpar to use themselves.

You make a fundamental error I have seen elsewhere, and one Zenimax are making, unless they already know the numbers and have done representative poll by stealth.

You assume that the numbers of players wanting what you want is somehow equivalent to the numbers not wanting it.

You dismiss the idea that people play Sorcerers because Sorcerer = Wizard.

In my experience, ~80% of players I have asked (and it's getting to be more than 70 now as I continue to do so...) aren't interested in playing a stamina hybrid class, and around 50% (of the total) were worried they will have to change their specs again, or their specs will be ruined.

No stamina morphs post-1.6 was ONLY for Sorcs. This would suggest Zenimax also thought about the class the same way...

However, 70 people is not a representative number by any means, so I cannot claim so. But it may be indicative.

If Zenimax change the class fundamentally to be a hybrid like the others and it pisses off more people that it makes happy, this is, believe it or not, a problem for them.

Unless you are 100% sure that you aren't in a vocal minority, you shouldn't be so cocksure about what they are going to do or how - they may well go off at a tangent. They certainly aren't rushing this are they?

On the other issue your post raises - if you don't care about how what you want will effect others - you can expect to get flamed, and deservedly so.

CP5

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

No sir. All you are doing is whining about not having stamina options and you don't care how it effects people who are playing the class and enjoying it. Instead of being a child about it, why don't you provide some actual ideas of how the morphs could/should look if they were divvied up between the two. Then maybe you might have less opposition from those of us that don't want our specs (that we worked hard on) destroyed because you want to hijack the class. I have already said that I wouldn't mind giving up streak. It's seems like a good viable stamina based ability. It could cost stamina, the damage could scale off of stamina and it could be used as a great gap closer for stamina based attacks. There I am trying to meet you part way here. Please start acting like an adult come up with some real solutions.

You're right that I don't care very much how it effects the people who have always had everything when it comes to Sorcerer skills, especially when those same people only seem willing to give up the abilities that they consider too subpar to use themselves.

You make a fundamental error I have seen elsewhere, and one Zenimax are making, unless they already know the numbers and have done representative poll by stealth.

You assume that the numbers of players wanting what you want is somehow equivalent to the numbers not wanting it.

You dismiss the idea that people play Sorcerers because Sorcerer = Wizard.

In my experience, ~80% of players I have asked (and it's getting to be more than 70 now as I continue to do so...) aren't interested in playing a stamina hybrid class, and around 50% (of the total) were worried they will have to change their specs again, or their specs will be ruined.

No stamina morphs post-1.6 was ONLY for Sorcs. This would suggest Zenimax also thought about the class the same way...

However, 70 people is not a representative number by any means, so I cannot claim so. But it may be indicative.

If Zenimax change the class fundamentally to be a hybrid like the others and it pisses off more people that it makes happy, this is, believe it or not, a problem for them.

Unless you are 100% sure that you aren't in a vocal minority, you shouldn't be so cocksure about what they are going to do or how - they may well go off at a tangent. They certainly aren't rushing this are they?

On the other issue your post raises - if you don't care about how what you want will effect others - you can expect to get flamed, and deservedly so.

ESO is designed to have all classes be able to fit into any role. All other classes can do this to varying degrees of success except the sorcerer. Just because the sorcerer is the only class on the character create screen with robes on does not condemn them to only one role.

It was an oversight on ZOS's part to assume that the class would be fine with the bound armor and dark exchange morphs and it seems during the 1.6 pts they were much more focused on buffing the sorcerer's magicka sustained dps above all else. Just because people have the picture of a non-elder scrolls sorcerer in their head when picturing this class does not mean it should be restricted to only that when the game is designed around flexibility.

Nutronic

Okay, sounds like a good place to start. I have a few suggestions, so why don't you add/detract from them to make them well rounded...

Glurin wrote: »

Well, take for example, Encase. Mid range cone attack that roots an opponent to the ground. Pretty handy feature for anybody. Magicka or stamina. Except that it's slow and easy to avoid or just flat out misses the target. Dark Talons, by comparison, has a shorter range, but is difficult to avoid and hits everyone nearby and deals damage and has a synergy and costs less to cast. And that's before you morph it.

I think this is a prime candidate for of a skill that needs fixing in general. I think the skill should be changed to an AOE target like Lighting splash or have an AOE radius of at least 250 degrees. I'm not sure what ZOS was thinking when they made this skill. The cone is unwieldy and the damage is horrible, but the snare is spamable and that makes the blood magic procs real (if it weren't for the delayed damage/snare).

They could change the base skill's range of effect to hit more reliably and possibly add the low delayed damage to make it attractive.

They could change the Shattering (damaging) Morph to combo/synergize better with other sorc skills and make the damage instant to proc blood magic better, maybe even increase the root duration by 1 second at rank IV.

Then they could change the restraining (snaring) Morph to either a stamina cost/scales from weapon dmg and give it a radial AOE like Talons. In this case, making it stamina would prevent people from abusing the instant cast due the precociousness of that resource and it would make it appealing to both magicka and stamina builds for different purposes (facilitating escapes, controlling mobs, setting up for Magicka AOE spams).

I can't say these changes would be to everyone's liking, but I think more thoughts on this skill alone would be worth getting people behind to improve the class overall.

Glurin wrote: »

Then you have lightning form. A 15-23 second Armor and spell resistance boost and a short range AoE centered on yourself. Pretty clearly a melee range ability. But it's relatively pricey for the damage it does when you're talking about stamina builds. In theory it could be a good way to trigger Disintegrate, but Disintegrate currently only comes into play when the target's health is already low and then only has a 6% chance to actually do anything.

I have mixed feelings about this skill. As a Tank, it would be horrible if this costs stamina. I already have a hard enough time allocating my stamina just for blocking, taunting, and other things. I don't want a spell that I have to recast every 30 seconds to pull from my primary resource. I just don't like being that reliant upon Templar shards.

That being said, it works very well as a melee ability because it gives armor, and a bit of elemental damage. If they lowered the cost or made it a % cost (like 5/7.5%) of one's max magicka, it would keep it's overall cost for high magicka builds but be more accessible to low ( High stamina) magicka builds.

Disintegrate is a non-issue. It's more or less just colorful flare that even with a master staff can't add enough single target DPS to be more appealing than a fire staff. I think this should be reserved for a thread that is discussing passives, as those are a whole other can of worms.

Glurin wrote: »

Dark Deal, well, it suffers all the same problems that the magicka version does. Reliable self heal though. So long as you politely ask your opponent to stop beating on you for a few seconds anyway.

Dark Exchange and it's morphs are kind of appealing for a healer. I mean yeah you aren't throwing out heals when you're channeling, but if your pots are on CD, it's not the end of the world to throw it up in between massive boss AOEs.

That being said, I think the easiest way to fix this is to remove the channel, halve or quarter the amount of conversion and make it a toggle.

Either it could temporarily give spells the ability to be cast from the opposite pool (stam abilities cost magicka and vice versa). Or it could slowly drain one resource while replenishing the others. The bottom line though is the channel is too long, so either remove it or shorten it by a lot. Not a bad idea though, and good mage inspired self heal.

Glurin wrote: »

Passives could also have some adjustments made to benefit stamina more than they do currently. Just off the top of my head, Exploitation could maybe have weapon critical added to it in addition to spell critical.

Seems a bit OP to cram all of that into 1 passive (even if that is on another class somewhere, it's kinda ridiculous as a group buff), but I wouldn't complain lol.

Glurin wrote: »

Pets, in general, need some kind of adjustment. The straightforward solution as far as stamina builds is concerned is just to have them scale off of either a sum of magicka and stamina or just scale off of whichever is higher. I don't believe any of them should be switched to stamina. They should still be primarily magicka based. But something else needs done IMO so that people aren't just using them for things like heal on death. That should be a contingency bonus rather than the purpose of having pets.

I play as a summoner and so I want these things:

• The ability to control a summon's special ability
• To see their health and damage information under the buff
• To be able to instantly cast one
• Not have to hard micro just to command them (1 button push is all, 2 is redundant and annoying)

I agree that they should be magicka based, but aside from the cost to summon them or perhaps use their abilities, I think all other aspects of them should scale from you.

Their damage could scale from which ever is higher for you (Stamina or Magicka).
Their HP should be a % of yours, either higher or lower, or capped at some kind of 1-1 ratio.
The armor and spell resist on a summon should also do the same, or scale based on your Magicka (makes more sense to scare from that rather than any other resource).

Either way, I think the whole summoning tree has the highest potential to be a more neutral middle of the road utility tree than any of the others. I personally love my clannfear and use it even in trials to great effect. There is potential here for a multitude of play styles, it just needs a bit of love.

Drago Belsazar

Nutronic wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Then you have lightning form. A 15-23 second Armor and spell resistance boost and a short range AoE centered on yourself. Pretty clearly a melee range ability. But it's relatively pricey for the damage it does when you're talking about stamina builds. In theory it could be a good way to trigger Disintegrate, but Disintegrate currently only comes into play when the target's health is already low and then only has a 6% chance to actually do anything.

I have mixed feelings about this skill. As a Tank, it would be horrible if this costs stamina. I already have a hard enough time allocating my stamina just for blocking, taunting, and other things. I don't want a spell that I have to recast every 30 seconds to pull from my primary resource. I just don't like being that reliant upon Templar shards.

Glurin wrote: »

Pets, in general, need some kind of adjustment. The straightforward solution as far as stamina builds is concerned is just to have them scale off of either a sum of magicka and stamina or just scale off of whichever is higher. I don't believe any of them should be switched to stamina. They should still be primarily magicka based. But something else needs done IMO so that people aren't just using them for things like heal on death. That should be a contingency bonus rather than the purpose of having pets.

I play as a summoner and so I want these things:

• The ability to control a summon's special ability
• To see their health and damage information under the buff
• To be able to instantly cast one
• Not have to hard micro just to command them (1 button push is all, 2 is redundant and annoying)

I agree that they should be magicka based, but aside from the cost to summon them or perhaps use their abilities, I think all other aspects of them should scale from you.

Their damage could scale from which ever is higher for you (Stamina or Magicka).
Their HP should be a % of yours, either higher or lower, or capped at some kind of 1-1 ratio.
The armor and spell resist on a summon should also do the same, or scale based on your Magicka (makes more sense to scare from that rather than any other resource).

Either way, I think the whole summoning tree has the highest potential to be a more neutral middle of the road utility tree than any of the others. I personally love my clannfear and use it even in trials to great effect. There is potential here for a multitude of play styles, it just needs a bit of love.

Thank you. Making a Skill like Crit-Surge costs Stamina would kill the Sorcerer-Tank. A Dragon-Blood or Talons(Tankskills) of a DK costs Magicka aswell. No survival Skill/Damage increasing Skill should cost Stamina. See, Crit Surge don't scale, it only costs Magicka. Every Stamina-Sorcerer would cut in his own flesh, if this Skill would cots Stamina. The only way not to ruin to many Magicka-based-builds(costs money due players leaving the game) are maybe some Stamina-Morphs for only Damaging skills that could be changed with other skills and would not ruin a whole mechanic like Crit-Surge.

Pets needs a buff to become useful. They are just to bad(Low Damage) and in Cyrodiil a Oneshot(Low HP). They are more cosmetic and joking effect rather than a serious skill. And they are bugged aswell. Doing ***, doing nothing, are visible in Hide and all these Stuff.

As a Summoner I claim same statements:
Magicka/(Stamina) scale with DPS
Life scales with Pets Life
And yes, I like the Idea of scaling Armor/Spellresistance to the Pets

byrom101b16_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

No sir. All you are doing is whining about not having stamina options and you don't care how it effects people who are playing the class and enjoying it. Instead of being a child about it, why don't you provide some actual ideas of how the morphs could/should look if they were divvied up between the two. Then maybe you might have less opposition from those of us that don't want our specs (that we worked hard on) destroyed because you want to hijack the class. I have already said that I wouldn't mind giving up streak. It's seems like a good viable stamina based ability. It could cost stamina, the damage could scale off of stamina and it could be used as a great gap closer for stamina based attacks. There I am trying to meet you part way here. Please start acting like an adult come up with some real solutions.

You're right that I don't care very much how it effects the people who have always had everything when it comes to Sorcerer skills, especially when those same people only seem willing to give up the abilities that they consider too subpar to use themselves.

You make a fundamental error I have seen elsewhere, and one Zenimax are making, unless they already know the numbers and have done representative poll by stealth.

You assume that the numbers of players wanting what you want is somehow equivalent to the numbers not wanting it.

You dismiss the idea that people play Sorcerers because Sorcerer = Wizard.

In my experience, ~80% of players I have asked (and it's getting to be more than 70 now as I continue to do so...) aren't interested in playing a stamina hybrid class, and around 50% (of the total) were worried they will have to change their specs again, or their specs will be ruined.

No stamina morphs post-1.6 was ONLY for Sorcs. This would suggest Zenimax also thought about the class the same way...

However, 70 people is not a representative number by any means, so I cannot claim so. But it may be indicative.

If Zenimax change the class fundamentally to be a hybrid like the others and it pisses off more people that it makes happy, this is, believe it or not, a problem for them.

Unless you are 100% sure that you aren't in a vocal minority, you shouldn't be so cocksure about what they are going to do or how - they may well go off at a tangent. They certainly aren't rushing this are they?

On the other issue your post raises - if you don't care about how what you want will effect others - you can expect to get flamed, and deservedly so.

ESO is designed to have all classes be able to fit into any role. All other classes can do this to varying degrees of success except the sorcerer. Just because the sorcerer is the only class on the character create screen with robes on does not condemn them to only one role.

It was an oversight on ZOS's part to assume that the class would be fine with the bound armor and dark exchange morphs and it seems during the 1.6 pts they were much more focused on buffing the sorcerer's magicka sustained dps above all else. Just because people have the picture of a non-elder scrolls sorcerer in their head when picturing this class does not mean it should be restricted to only that when the game is designed around flexibility.

I do wish people on both sides would stop talking about classes in TES, when most of the series, and all the most recent iterations of the single player game have no classes - and all iterations of magic, use magicka.

I am also really tired of the short sightedness that I have challenged again and again that the only way to have multiple roles for the class is to utilise stamina - such tunnel vision entirely ignores the fact that magicka melee skills are just as easy to implement as stamina ones, and can be designed any way Zenimax want -to give mitigation, healing, extra power for weapons etc. etc.

There is also a sizeable dose of fingers in ears and 'la la la' about wanting hybridisation in a game where resource = power. The maths doesn't lie. This is something which needs to be decoupled first, before any hybridisation occurs, if indeed it should occur.

However, as Zenimax have painted themselves into a corner by allegedly saying they won't be looking for a three morph solution, then some kind of class changes are necessary to make weapon based Sorcs. work better.

The problem with the otherwise functionally sound 'light touch' suggestions for just a few morphs is that these will create stamina-based Sorcs. who are still too heavily reliant on magicka, which they will subsequently suffer for in terms of lower sustained dps or utility, depending on how they build themselves. They also make even more OP PvP builds possible unless shields and crystal burst are nerfed compared to their magicka versions, or based off other resources such as health, and this makes it highly likely that calls for further buffs will follow any such change. A health based shield will also nerf the hell out of magicka build Sorcs in an area they cannot afford to be nerfed in, as without effective shields, they melt in seconds.

Certain types of players will never stop chasing their 'perfect' build, and they will always make a din on the forums. The activity here is either indicative of a noisy minority, or it isn't.

I really don't think anyone, anywhere has a definitive and undeniable set of numbers which say which is true.

If Zenimax somehow pull a rabbit out of a hat and manage to change the class to incorporate stamina builds into a class widely regarded as a magicka spellcasting class without in some way shafting magicka Sorcerers, then all well and good.

However, I personally regard this about as likely as Zenimax reversing course and putting in a three morph system, or doing a u-turn on resource = power.

At this stage, now both 'sides' have been heard in volume, we just have to wait for the changes to come. In the interim it would be wise of Zenimax to determine how many people sit either side of the fence, and to make changes with as little negative impact on the majority play-style as possible. But wisdom isn't something I see in many of their decisions - or the change from weapon power effective some magicka spells to spell power effecting more magicka spells wouldn't have created this issue in the first place.

In addition - having stated that they will put in stamina changes, they have said nothing to engage with those players who fear it will lead to a further nerf of their play-style, which continues their approach of being arrogant and dismissive to the section of the player base who don't currently like what they are doing. It also speaks volumes about how 'sure' they are about how they are going to achieve these proposed class revisions now they have stuck themselves with the least flexible of options - two morphs or bust.

They already messed up pets after trying to fix them, so don't hold your breaths for a fix that either achieves it's stated aim, or doesn't make things worse for someone...

Jar_Ek

Well we can only hope that zos read the forums, look at the suggestions, and take a sensible course of action, like this (shameless plug with a big tongue in cheek):

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/167102/sorcerer-skilltrees-a-re-imagining#latest