Rise of The Perma-Dodger

Ezareth

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

cozmon3c_ESO

its worse when they find a rock or tree and keep los'ing you, dodge roll for days.

morf87

Ezareth wrote: »

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

For stamina specs there is no other escape tool, not to mention many skills hit thru dodge, its so easily countered.
You sorcs dont understand how lucky u are being able to spam damage shields and bolt to safety.

Ezareth

morf87 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

For stamina specs there is no other escape tool, not to mention many skills hit thru dodge, its so easily countered.
You sorcs dont understand how lucky u are being able to spam damage shields and bolt to safety.

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

Wreuntzylla

It is only going to get worse! I don't have enough CP to dodge roll for more than a couple minutes yet!

Ace_SiN

Sure lets nerf Dodge roll and then lets nerf Blocking and Damage Shields.

morf87

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

I hate to turn this into another sorc comparison or complaint so i will just respond to how dodge rolling is easily countered.
Going on only class skills players have on there bar 90% of the time, DK whip hits u while roll dodging, sorc daedric curse, templar radiant destruction and biting jabs, nb not to sure about, ambush and concealed weapon ? and im sure there are more class skills and plenty of weapon skills.
I can usually roll dodge thru a bunch of not so talented players or thru a train of 1 button aoe spammers but when u come across someone who knows what to do(which is very common) its not a valid escape tool.

Ezareth

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

It is only going to get worse! I don't have enough CP to dodge roll for more than a couple minutes yet!

Just put your points into Stamina Regen and dodge roll equally and you'll be far better off than specializing in just one.

Ace_SiN wrote: »

Sure lets nerf Dodge roll and then lets nerf Blocking and Damage Shields.

No one is suggesting to Nerf Dodge rolling.

Ezareth

morf87 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

I hate to turn this into another sorc comparison or complaint so i will just respond to how dodge rolling is easily countered.
Going on only class skills players have on there bar 90% of the time, DK whip hits u while roll dodging, sorc daedric curse, templar radiant destruction and biting jabs, nb not to sure about, ambush and concealed weapon ? and im sure there are more class skills and plenty of weapon skills.
I can usually roll dodge thru a bunch of not so talented players or thru a train of 1 button aoe spammers but when u come across someone who knows what to do(which is very common) its not a valid escape tool.

Those abilities are not primary damage abilities with the exception of whip but DKs appear to have abilities to counter or destroy practically any class or build. Nothing new there.

Ambush shouldn't be able to hit through dodge roll but most gap-closer abilities have a bug associated with them that apparently allows it at times.

Daedric curse is on a timer and it can't be spammed enough to kill someone who has any type of heal on their bar. Same with Mana Detonation except it requires you to stand still to cast it.

Dodge roll isn't an escape, it *is* counterable yes, but you can't deny that it isn't a very powerful ability and as such it should have be easily reduced to be a "free" ability.

morf87

Ezareth wrote: »

Those abilities are not primary damage abilities with the exception of whip but DKs appear to have abilities to counter or destroy practically any class or build. Nothing new there.

Ambush shouldn't be able to hit through dodge roll but most gap-closer abilities have a bug associated with them that apparently allows it at times.

Daedric curse is on a timer and it can't be spammed enough to kill someone who has any type of heal on their bar. Same with Mana Detonation except it requires you to stand still to cast it.

Dodge roll isn't an escape, it *is* counterable yes, but you can't deny that it isn't a very powerful ability and as such it should have be easily reduced to be a "free" ability.

That i cant deny, it is a poweful ability but no more powerful then alot skills ppl have on there action bar.
As a nb mayb if my dark cloak didnt fail most the time i wouldnt spend so much time rolling around.
The need to roll dodge so much is mayb down to the bigger picture of how combat is right now, being able to roll dodge as much as i can as a stam nb is the only way/option i have to stay alive.

Varicite

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Shields are WAY stronger than dodge. I'm not fighting back while I'm dodging, even if its only for a second at a time, but consecutively. You can have shields up and continue to attack until they are gone and just recast.

the difference that you dont seem to see is that while roll dodging you can weave in abilities and still take almost no damage, but with a Damage Shield you cannot weave in abilities but have to eat up the global cooldown while still eating all incoming damage.

big difference, putting roll dodge a head of shields.

Strange, I thought the big difference was that roll dodge lasts about 1 second, while shields can last up to 20.

And you are actually not eating ANY incoming damage, because you are shielding yourself. That's literally the point. But it's true, shields are not meant to stand there and eat a ton of damage over and over until you run out of magicka.

If you aren't pairing your shielding w/ SOME method to relieve pressure (CC, escape, etc), you're going to have a bad time.

Pretty much the only time that I can think of somebody not being able to put out ANY pressure while shielding is a guy just standing there spamming his shield w/out doing anything else. You pretty much deserve to lose in that case, though.

Let's be serious for a moment, spamming 8k shields every second is only really necessary for short periods of time before you are either dead or going on the offensive.

Ezareth wrote: »

morf87 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

For stamina specs there is no other escape tool, not to mention many skills hit thru dodge, its so easily countered.
You sorcs dont understand how lucky u are being able to spam damage shields and bolt to safety.

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

Bolt Escape + Shields is definitely harder to counter than dodge rolling by itself.

There is also pretty much no cost for constant shielding.

What's good for the goose, right?

Ezareth

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

morf87 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

For stamina specs there is no other escape tool, not to mention many skills hit thru dodge, its so easily countered.
You sorcs dont understand how lucky u are being able to spam damage shields and bolt to safety.

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

Bolt Escape + Shields is definitely harder to counter than dodge rolling by itself.

There is also pretty much no cost for constant shielding.

What's good for the goose, right?

Actually if anyone here ever read my posts or anything I've been saying you'd see I'm calling for an adjustment to magicka and stamina regen which would make perma-shielding as impossible as perma-rolling.

In conjunction with bolt escape permanently shielding is not possible due to the cost of bolt escape. Permanent shields however is possible but you can't move in any way while doing this and the damage eventually piles up and overcomes your shields (if you don't run out of stamina first from CC).

Varicite

Ezareth wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

morf87 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

For stamina specs there is no other escape tool, not to mention many skills hit thru dodge, its so easily countered.
You sorcs dont understand how lucky u are being able to spam damage shields and bolt to safety.

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

Bolt Escape + Shields is definitely harder to counter than dodge rolling by itself.

There is also pretty much no cost for constant shielding.

What's good for the goose, right?

Actually if anyone here ever read my posts or anything I've been saying you'd see I'm calling for an adjustment to magicka and stamina regen which would make perma-shielding as impossible as perma-rolling.

In conjunction with bolt escape permanently shielding is not possible due to the cost of bolt escape. Permanent shields however is possible but you can't move in any way while doing this and the damage eventually piles up and overcomes your shields (if you don't run out of stamina first from CC).

Thankfully, there's rarely a case where you actually NEED to permanently shield unless you are simply outnumbered, because you can actually create distance.

squshy7

Ezareth wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

morf87 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

For stamina specs there is no other escape tool, not to mention many skills hit thru dodge, its so easily countered.
You sorcs dont understand how lucky u are being able to spam damage shields and bolt to safety.

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

Bolt Escape + Shields is definitely harder to counter than dodge rolling by itself.

There is also pretty much no cost for constant shielding.

What's good for the goose, right?

Actually if anyone here ever read my posts or anything I've been saying you'd see I'm calling for an adjustment to magicka and stamina regen which would make perma-shielding as impossible as perma-rolling.

In conjunction with bolt escape permanently shielding is not possible due to the cost of bolt escape. Permanent shields however is possible but you can't move in any way while doing this and the damage eventually piles up and overcomes your shields (if you don't run out of stamina first from CC).

And yet, Ezareth, you have labeled this thread "rise of the perma-dodger". You continue to make the case that you are arguing against excessive resource regeneration and reduced cost, and yet you present this argument in a form that is perceived (not wrongfully) as biased and self-serving, all the way down to the title of your thread and " research" you did with stamina regeneration. So please, excuse me while I don't immediately buy what you're selling, especially considering the fact that if all regen and cost reduc received equal nerfs, then magicka would be at a unique advantage due to it's numerous ways of being recovered that stamina does NOT have.

Ezareth

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

morf87 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

For stamina specs there is no other escape tool, not to mention many skills hit thru dodge, its so easily countered.
You sorcs dont understand how lucky u are being able to spam damage shields and bolt to safety.

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

Bolt Escape + Shields is definitely harder to counter than dodge rolling by itself.

There is also pretty much no cost for constant shielding.

What's good for the goose, right?

Actually if anyone here ever read my posts or anything I've been saying you'd see I'm calling for an adjustment to magicka and stamina regen which would make perma-shielding as impossible as perma-rolling.

In conjunction with bolt escape permanently shielding is not possible due to the cost of bolt escape. Permanent shields however is possible but you can't move in any way while doing this and the damage eventually piles up and overcomes your shields (if you don't run out of stamina first from CC).

Thankfully, there's rarely a case where you actually NEED to permanently shield unless you are simply outnumbered, because you can actually create distance.

I was just pointing out that despite the fact I can currently permanently shield (i.e.) the cost of the shield is irrelevant. Spam-Shielding myself often kills me unless I'm shielding against 1-2 ranged players. Anything more than that or the presence of melee requires that I put distance between the attackers and myself. Each shield I cast puts me on a 1.2 second GCD. The same is true for bolt escape so I can't do one and the other and because of that once a certain threshold of damage is passed I die....easily.

Dodge roll however operates on a separate GCD from your action bar abilities and thus can be use in parallel with them.

This was always one of the keys to my survival over so many other more "traditional" bolt escape sorcs. I'll often dodge roll and bolt at the same time multiple times in a row thus using a superior defensive mechanism (dodge roll) along with a superior escape (bolt escape). Dodge roll makes a poor escape mechanism however but it does allow you to cover distance (unlike shielding) and with a bow equipped and/or other defensive abilities it often allows a skilled player to escape. If you're dodge rolling out in the middle of a field being pursued by 2 or more people unless those pursuing you don't have any abilities slotted to counter dodge you're as good as dead.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

Truthfully, what i really want is all these 'the rise of' or 'nerf this' threads to be ignored, and instead zos focus on informing us about new content

i would rather have more content, more things to do, dailies and such, new lands, more immersion, id rather have all that rather than a perfectly balanced game. you nerf criers are ruining this game by stunting its growth.

Varicite

What I'm getting at is that I see you haven't changed your thread title to something more befitting your current argument, like: Rise of the Endless Resources, or Perma-Dodging and Perma-Shielding need to be looked at.

This was clearly in response to all of the complaints about perma-shielding, and the vast majority of your tact is focused solely on stamina builds (who have weaker heals and FAR less utility w/out access to shielding WHILE they are making an escape).

And yes, you're right, BE and shields are linked together on ability gcd, but shields last for MUCH longer than the GCD.

It's quite possible to shield (take a hit, shield not broken) -> BE for breathing room -> Re-shield -> BE. Or in my case, it's really going to be Shield -> Dodge Roll -> Shield (if I actually took damage during the roll) -> BE -> offensive.

Due to the long-lasting nature of many shields, you have a lot more margin for error than a dodge roller and if somebody DOESN'T break your 8k+ shield in a single attack (extremely common unless you're eating back-to-back WBs), then you have an opportunity to turn the tables.

Ezareth

squshy7 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

morf87 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

For stamina specs there is no other escape tool, not to mention many skills hit thru dodge, its so easily countered.
You sorcs dont understand how lucky u are being able to spam damage shields and bolt to safety.

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

Bolt Escape + Shields is definitely harder to counter than dodge rolling by itself.

There is also pretty much no cost for constant shielding.

What's good for the goose, right?

Actually if anyone here ever read my posts or anything I've been saying you'd see I'm calling for an adjustment to magicka and stamina regen which would make perma-shielding as impossible as perma-rolling.

In conjunction with bolt escape permanently shielding is not possible due to the cost of bolt escape. Permanent shields however is possible but you can't move in any way while doing this and the damage eventually piles up and overcomes your shields (if you don't run out of stamina first from CC).

And yet, Ezareth, you have labeled this thread "rise of the perma-dodger". You continue to make the case that you are arguing against excessive resource regeneration and reduced cost, and yet you present this argument in a form that is perceived (not wrongfully) as biased and self-serving, all the way down to the title of your thread and " research" you did with stamina regeneration. So please, excuse me while I don't immediately buy what you're selling, especially considering the fact that if all regen and cost reduc received equal nerfs, then magicka would be at a unique advantage due to it's numerous ways of being recovered that stamina does NOT have.

First, there is nothing "self-serving" or "biased" about my post. Putting through these changes would not severely impact the people who are currently exploiting it and it certainly wouldn't end up with me getting more kills or having an easier time killing people. I've said multiple times over these changes would hurt *me* the most, but I'm fine with that because from a balance perspective the changes need to be made. In case you missed the several times I mentioned this I'm currently running triple stamin-reduction enchants and exploiting absurd regeneration bonuses (I spend most of my time in PvP with over 3000 magicka regen and 1300 stamina regen).

This thread is directed mainly at dodge rolling since it is currently a very powerful ability that a growing number of people are able to use with no cost using the methods I've explained. My suggestions were designed to curtail that unless you really thing combat in cyrodiil is going to be enjoyable where everyone who is attacked just starts rolling around on each other. Every action should have a consequence and for a powerful action that consequence should have significance.

Lastly your belief that somehow magicka cost reduction and regeneration is somehow superior to stamina cost reduction you would be incorrect.

Currently stamina weapon abilities all receive a 20% cost reduction to these abilities while there is no equivalent magicka cost reduction Since cost reduction is *multiplicative* not additive stacking these makes the abilities far more powerful.

To counter this there currently is no stamina regen mundus (although Gina Bruno said they'd correct this in their review of mundus stones), but there are passive alternatives that don't have a magicka alternative like Bosmer Racial and Shadow NB passive. Additionally there are many class abilities that further increase stam regen or stam recovery but none as powerful or equivalent on the magicka side.

All in all I'd say from a cost/regen perspective the opportunities to leverage both magicka/stamina are balanced with the exception of the dodge roll/break free cost reduction mechanism being thrown in with the stamina cost reduction enchant.

The stamina/magicka regen options need to be reduced across the board and this is nothing new to what I've been saying.

Ezareth

Varicite wrote: »

What I'm getting at is that I see you haven't changed your thread title to something more befitting your current argument, like: Rise of the Endless Resources, or Perma-Dodging and Perma-Shielding need to be looked at.

This was clearly in response to all of the complaints about perma-shielding, and the vast majority of your tact is focused solely on stamina builds (who have weaker heals and FAR less utility w/out access to shielding WHILE they are making an escape).

And yes, you're right, BE and shields are linked together on ability gcd, but shields last for MUCH longer than the GCD.

It's quite possible to shield (take a hit, shield not broken) -> BE for breathing room -> Re-shield -> BE. Or in my case, it's really going to be Shield -> Dodge Roll -> Shield (if I actually took damage during the roll) -> BE -> offensive.

Due to the long-lasting nature of many shields, you have a lot more margin for error than a dodge roller and if somebody DOESN'T break your 8k+ shield in a single attack (extremely common unless you're eating back-to-back WBs), then you have an opportunity to turn the tables.

What I should have made this thread title is Stamina Cost Reduction and Champion Regen options are too powerful. But that lacks flair and has no example. I mention dodge rolling specifically because the cost reduction enchant ties into it and it is one of my two key points.

I could highlight the larger of the two problems (Overall regen) but that would overshadow the other issue (Stamina cost reduction enchant) so I tried to the frame the issue with an argument that was touched on by both points.

The duration of shields has no real link to my survival while under attack. I'm recasting my shields while being attacked every 2-3 seconds or more. The duration of my shields only comes into play when I'm trying to actively participate in PvP while not being attack and the maintenance of recasting my hardened ward every 20 seconds is already annoying and forgetting this gets me killed constantly. The only thing a shorter duration on shields would do is allow more stealth bow attacks to kill defenseless players (sorcs) which I'm guessing is your aim.

Against a single player or two weak hitting players your example is correct. Against 2 powerful players however my shield is taken out instantly and my survival is linked to my ability to dodge roll not shield, or if they've cut deeply into my health I'm relying on Healing ward which is more powerful in that circumstance.

So flipping the tables on your dodge roller, against a single or even 2 players your dodge roller is going to be faring just as good as I am (provided he is skilled and using defensive abilities in conjunction with dodge roll), maybe taking some hits but not getting instagibbed unless he's double-meteored or something and even that has its counters(defensive posture/eclipse/reflective scales).

The real issue is those two very strong stamina attackers could indeed also be perma-dodge rollers and they are given the ability to do this with no real decision on their end to support that. As I said before it isn't really a decision for a stamina build player to choose stamina -cost reduction, even the most ludicrous weapon damage build players are using it. That should tell you something if you think about it.

Varicite

Ezareth wrote: »

The real issue is those two very strong stamina attackers could indeed also be perma-dodge rollers and they are given the ability to do this with no real decision on their end to support that. As I said before it isn't really a decision for a stamina build player to choose stamina -cost reduction, even the most ludicrous weapon damage build players are using it. That should tell you something if you think about it.

It tells me that stam regen enchants on jewelry is terrible, which is WHY everybody stacks stamina cost reduction. You should know this.

The alternatives are terrible, even IF stamina cost reduction didn't apply to defensive moves (which it ALWAYS has, btw).

squshy7

Ezareth wrote: »

squshy7 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

morf87 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Anyone else noticing more and more people catching on to this and Perma-rolling yet?

For stamina specs there is no other escape tool, not to mention many skills hit thru dodge, its so easily countered.
You sorcs dont understand how lucky u are being able to spam damage shields and bolt to safety.

Dodge rolling isn't "Easily" countered any more than Bolt Escape and damage shields are easily countered. Everything has a counter true. The issue isn't the effectiveness of the ability but the complete lack of an appreciable cost for the ability itself for no small number of players.

Bolt Escape + Shields is definitely harder to counter than dodge rolling by itself.

There is also pretty much no cost for constant shielding.

What's good for the goose, right?

Actually if anyone here ever read my posts or anything I've been saying you'd see I'm calling for an adjustment to magicka and stamina regen which would make perma-shielding as impossible as perma-rolling.

In conjunction with bolt escape permanently shielding is not possible due to the cost of bolt escape. Permanent shields however is possible but you can't move in any way while doing this and the damage eventually piles up and overcomes your shields (if you don't run out of stamina first from CC).

And yet, Ezareth, you have labeled this thread "rise of the perma-dodger". You continue to make the case that you are arguing against excessive resource regeneration and reduced cost, and yet you present this argument in a form that is perceived (not wrongfully) as biased and self-serving, all the way down to the title of your thread and " research" you did with stamina regeneration. So please, excuse me while I don't immediately buy what you're selling, especially considering the fact that if all regen and cost reduc received equal nerfs, then magicka would be at a unique advantage due to it's numerous ways of being recovered that stamina does NOT have.

First, there is nothing "self-serving" or "biased" about my post. Putting through these changes would not severely impact the people who are currently exploiting it and it certainly wouldn't end up with me getting more kills or having an easier time killing people. I've said multiple times over these changes would hurt *me* the most, but I'm fine with that because from a balance perspective the changes need to be made. In case you missed the several times I mentioned this I'm currently running triple stamin-reduction enchants and exploiting absurd regeneration bonuses (I spend most of my time in PvP with over 3000 magicka regen and 1300 stamina regen).

This thread is directed mainly at dodge rolling since it is currently a very powerful ability that a growing number of people are able to use with no cost using the methods I've explained. My suggestions were designed to curtail that unless you really thing combat in cyrodiil is going to be enjoyable where everyone who is attacked just starts rolling around on each other. Every action should have a consequence and for a powerful action that consequence should have significance.

Lastly your belief that somehow magicka cost reduction and regeneration is somehow superior to stamina cost reduction you would be incorrect.

Currently stamina weapon abilities all receive a 20% cost reduction to these abilities while there is no equivalent magicka cost reduction Since cost reduction is *multiplicative* not additive stacking these makes the abilities far more powerful.

To counter this there currently is no stamina regen mundus (although Gina Bruno said they'd correct this in their review of mundus stones), but there are passive alternatives that don't have a magicka alternative like Bosmer Racial and Shadow NB passive. Additionally there are many class abilities that further increase stam regen or stam recovery but none as powerful or equivalent on the magicka side.

All in all I'd say from a cost/regen perspective the opportunities to leverage both magicka/stamina are balanced with the exception of the dodge roll/break free cost reduction mechanism being thrown in with the stamina cost reduction enchant.

The stamina/magicka regen options need to be reduced across the board and this is nothing new to what I've been saying.

Then you need to reword your title and your post. Maybe you didn't notice, but the reason you keep having to "clarify" your argument is because you have basically presented it as "dodge roll is too strong, please Nerf cost reduction", and not " all of these defensive abilities are too strong, please Nerf cost reduction". It does not matter what you think your argument is, it only matters what others think it is.

Your "main" point, is also one I would consider invalid. 1v1 TTK is absurdly low in PvP, and nerfs to regen and reduction affect defense more than offense; thus there is the possibilty that the cumulative effect of what you propose would encourage even *more* large grouping. ZOS has publicly stated they want players to spread out, which is a behavior that is discouraged by low survivability.

Also, your "abuse" stacking 2 regens I would not consider abuse at all, given how low your other stats would need to be to accommodate that ("low" in this context is relative, as compared to other players). Which, lo and behold, ZOS explicitly stated as a goal with 1.6. Revert back to the audio recordings of the guild summit: they wanted players to have that ability to focus on a couple things and really push the envelope with those stats, but it would take limiting one's self in other areas to do so, which was a compromise we did not have with soft caps.

Now, all that being said, there is one nugget of truth in what you say, though you never explicitly stated it, and I believe is the real long term solution: there needs to be some sort of champion point cap. Whether it's in limiting earned, or active, or whatever, that is the real problem. Because being able to eventually fulfill all champion points directly counters the philosophy of their give/take dream.

Varicite

squshy7 wrote: »

there needs to be some sort of champion point cap. Whether it's in limiting earned, or active, or whatever, that is the real problem. Because being able to eventually fulfill all champion points directly counters the philosophy of their give/take dream.

SO 100% behind a CP cap.

Rune_Relic

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

Truthfully, what i really want is all these 'the rise of' or 'nerf this' threads to be ignored, and instead zos focus on informing us about new content

i would rather have more content, more things to do, dailies and such, new lands, more immersion, id rather have all that rather than a perfectly balanced game. you nerf criers are ruining this game by stunting its growth.

I would rather have a fair game that was mutually enjoyable for everyone than new content.
So choose your poison at leisure.

Of course if PVP was balanced....we wouldn't have to demand ZOS time and effort which could be spent on new PVE content.
So help yourself....jump on the bandwagon

Ezareth

squshy7 wrote: »

[

Then you need to reword your title and your post. Maybe you didn't notice, but the reason you keep having to "clarify" your argument is because you have basically presented it as "dodge roll is too strong, please Nerf cost reduction", and not " all of these defensive abilities are too strong, please Nerf cost reduction". It does not matter what you think your argument is, it only matters what others think it is.

Your "main" point, is also one I would consider invalid. 1v1 TTK is absurdly low in PvP, and nerfs to regen and reduction affect defense more than offense; thus there is the possibilty that the cumulative effect of what you propose would encourage even *more* large grouping. ZOS has publicly stated they want players to spread out, which is a behavior that is discouraged by low survivability.

Also, your "abuse" stacking 2 regens I would not consider abuse at all, given how low your other stats would need to be to accommodate that ("low" in this context is relative, as compared to other players). Which, lo and behold, ZOS explicitly stated as a goal with 1.6. Revert back to the audio recordings of the guild summit: they wanted players to have that ability to focus on a couple things and really push the envelope with those stats, but it would take limiting one's self in other areas to do so, which was a compromise we did not have with soft caps.

Now, all that being said, there is one nugget of truth in what you say, though you never explicitly stated it, and I believe is the real long term solution: there needs to be some sort of champion point cap. Whether it's in limiting earned, or active, or whatever, that is the real problem. Because being able to eventually fulfill all champion points directly counters the philosophy of their give/take dream.

I keep having to clarify my post because people aren't bothering to read it and understand my argument. "Perma-dodge roll" doesn't imply dodge roll is too strong, it implies the possible cost reduction and regen as they exist today allows it to become too cheap.

1 v 1s against equally skilled players isn't absurdly low. I haven't had a 1 v 1 fight against a good player yet that didn't last 3-5 minutes. I've had many 1 v 1 fights that lasted 10 minutes or more (DKs mainly).

Keep in mind that my suggestions to nerf regen by making the champion system additive instead of multiplicative isn't going to have as big of an effect as you think *Today* because there are so few champion points available right now and even this change would only cost me @300 points in regen and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone with more than me right now. for most people this change would not really be felt much, but the guys like me who are exploiting it, it would make us less effective.

I think when you see my upcoming PvP video (I have all the footage but I'm really procrastinating on the editing as I don't have nearly as much free time these days as I used to and I'd rather be playing than "working" editing video) you'll change your mind about what you consider "abuse". My other stats (mainly health and spell power) are compensated for by utilizing other class abilities and coupling that with absurd regen levels.

Xsorus

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The real issue is those two very strong stamina attackers could indeed also be perma-dodge rollers and they are given the ability to do this with no real decision on their end to support that. As I said before it isn't really a decision for a stamina build player to choose stamina -cost reduction, even the most ludicrous weapon damage build players are using it. That should tell you something if you think about it.

It tells me that stam regen enchants on jewelry is terrible, which is WHY everybody stacks stamina cost reduction. You should know this.

The alternatives are terrible, even IF stamina cost reduction didn't apply to defensive moves (which it ALWAYS has, btw).

Everyone stacking Stamina/Magicka Cost reduction on their Jewelry because ZOS came in and absolutely gutted every other Enchant.

I'd actually use Stamina Recovery Enchants if they weren't gutted.

Varicite

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The real issue is those two very strong stamina attackers could indeed also be perma-dodge rollers and they are given the ability to do this with no real decision on their end to support that. As I said before it isn't really a decision for a stamina build player to choose stamina -cost reduction, even the most ludicrous weapon damage build players are using it. That should tell you something if you think about it.

It tells me that stam regen enchants on jewelry is terrible, which is WHY everybody stacks stamina cost reduction. You should know this.

The alternatives are terrible, even IF stamina cost reduction didn't apply to defensive moves (which it ALWAYS has, btw).

Everyone stacking Stamina/Magicka Cost reduction on their Jewelry because ZOS came in and absolutely gutted every other Enchant.

I'd actually use Stamina Recovery Enchants if they weren't gutted.

Absolutely agreed. That's what I'm saying.

@Ezareth points to this "exploit", as he calls it, as the reason that people are stacking cost reduction. I'm merely pointing out that there AREN'T any good alternatives that are even remotely comparable, even IF they unlinked dodge / break free from cost reduction.

Ezareth

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The real issue is those two very strong stamina attackers could indeed also be perma-dodge rollers and they are given the ability to do this with no real decision on their end to support that. As I said before it isn't really a decision for a stamina build player to choose stamina -cost reduction, even the most ludicrous weapon damage build players are using it. That should tell you something if you think about it.

It tells me that stam regen enchants on jewelry is terrible, which is WHY everybody stacks stamina cost reduction. You should know this.

The alternatives are terrible, even IF stamina cost reduction didn't apply to defensive moves (which it ALWAYS has, btw).

Everyone stacking Stamina/Magicka Cost reduction on their Jewelry because ZOS came in and absolutely gutted every other Enchant.

I'd actually use Stamina Recovery Enchants if they weren't gutted.

So would I actually due to the extreme stacking effect of champion regen and base stamina/magicka increasing passives.

It is actually already pretty close right now as it is, and stamina recovery would also effectively "reduce" the cost of Blocking and Bashing in addition to Break Free/ Dodge Roll and Stamina abilities.

Right now It is theoretically possible to increase your stamina recovery by 178.25% making that 64 Stamina regen another 178 Stamina regen per enchant 3 enchants makes that 534 Stamina recovery. For a player in full medium armor they're already almost equal unless you're chain spamming abilities as fast as the GCD. If that 64 were increased to even 100 that would make all 3 equivalent to 834.75 extra stamina regen which is better under *any* scenario using medium than 637 stamina cost reduction (since that 637 is reduced by other cost reduction).

Just showing some of the absurd math available with current stacking mechanisms.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO

Lol
You guys think thats a problem?

Wait until people can ressurect perma bashing, ressurect super high damage bash damage, heal reap on bash, and absorb shield on bash.

I advise everyone to chillout and enjoy the game and the board drama, as what we are seeing now will be eclipsed 10000 fold when people start to hit 1000cps plus.

Ezareth

Varicite wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The real issue is those two very strong stamina attackers could indeed also be perma-dodge rollers and they are given the ability to do this with no real decision on their end to support that. As I said before it isn't really a decision for a stamina build player to choose stamina -cost reduction, even the most ludicrous weapon damage build players are using it. That should tell you something if you think about it.

It tells me that stam regen enchants on jewelry is terrible, which is WHY everybody stacks stamina cost reduction. You should know this.

The alternatives are terrible, even IF stamina cost reduction didn't apply to defensive moves (which it ALWAYS has, btw).

Everyone stacking Stamina/Magicka Cost reduction on their Jewelry because ZOS came in and absolutely gutted every other Enchant.

I'd actually use Stamina Recovery Enchants if they weren't gutted.

Absolutely agreed. That's what I'm saying.

@Ezareth points to this "exploit", as he calls it, as the reason that people are stacking cost reduction. I'm merely pointing out that there AREN'T any good alternatives that are even remotely comparable, even IF they unlinked dodge / break free from cost reduction.

If they unlinked Dodge/break free it would actually make stamina regen a viable alternative for many people to Stamina Cost reduction. Others would also choose the enchant that was split (Breakfree/dodge roll) because the stamina cost reduction enchat effect is reduced by the existing stamina cost reduction passives and gearing.

I would be running Magicka regen enchants right now if I ever ran out of magicka(which I don't).

ChefZero

Ezareth wrote: »

I spend most of my time in PvP with over 3000 magicka regen and 1300 stamina regen.

Wtf how do you get so many regen?