Rise of The Perma-Dodger

Zsymon

What you may be seeing is the dodges from Greater Evasion, not from dodge roll. This dodge triggers very often, there may be a bug that it triggers on more than 20%. Someone would have to test that.

Ezareth

Zsymon wrote: »

What you may be seeing is the dodges from Greater Evasion, not from dodge roll. This dodge triggers very often, there may be a bug that it triggers on more than 20%.

Once again this isn't about the effectiveness of dodge roll or it's usefulness relative to Bolt Escape (the abilities have nothing in common really).

This is an issue with Cost reduction stacking and Stamina regen that allows this ability to be performed infinitely.

A player can do this with very high damage potential (but not maximum obviously) and can dodge roll whenever he wants regardless of the cost.

I'm really trying not to get dragged into the whole conversation about whether or not Dodge roll is OP, Bolt Escape is better, or whether or not you can attack while dodge rolling (you can but that is irrelevant).

Too many people are trying to read more into this thread than there is and draw conclusions that have nothing to do with it.

Varicite

You can dodge roll once a second. It costs about 2200 stam.

Your regen ticks once every 2 seconds. It ticks for about 3000 stam.

Math tells me that this cannot be infinite if "perma-dodge rolling".

If anything, it's the Mooncalf passive that needs to be looked at, as it is providing the greatest (and newest, as stam cost reduction glyphs have ALWAYS effected dodge roll / break free w/out any issue) reduction in cost.

Also, it's a situation we all saw coming as soon as they removed softcaps. Now everything is out of whack, and they seem reluctant to actually do much about it at this juncture.

/shrug

Ezareth

Varicite wrote: »

You can dodge roll once a second. It costs about 2200 stam.

Your regen ticks once every 2 seconds. It ticks for about 3000 stam.

Math tells me that this cannot be infinite if "perma-dodge rolling".

If anything, it's the Mooncalf passive that needs to be looked at, as it is providing the greatest (and newest, as stam cost reduction glyphs have ALWAYS effected dodge roll / break free w/out any issue) reduction in cost.

Also, it's a situation we all saw coming as soon as they removed softcaps. Now everything is out of whack, and they seem reluctant to actually do much about it at this juncture.

/shrug

Dodge roll costs 2229 stamina with full Medium armor and 3 Stamina reduction glyphs and *no* champion points into tumbling. With max tumbling the cost is only 1741. With only 33 points into tumbling (9% reduction) your cost is 1985.

You're invulnerable for far longer than 1 second, regardless of how fast you can dodge roll (I believe the GCD is actually 1.2 seconds). I was dodging a sorc by dodge rolling at just under every 2 seconds and she would miss me with 2 spells in a row (instant casts) during the course of a single dodge roll.

With 3000 Stamina recovery under the 33 point scenario you could dodge roll every 1.5 seconds infinitely.

If you were burning Tri-stat Pots during this time and you'd only need 2400 stamina recovery. Even with 2000 stamina recovery and Tri-stats you can dodge roll every 1.5 seconds for a good 3 and a half minutes straight.

That said, I'm fine with the regen nerfs and coming back to this later. I've never believed in large changes to the game, only incremental ones to achieve balance after thorough testing.

jrkhan

So, upped my stam regen to get a better feel for perma dodge rolling. Seems that 1) some players are good enough at timing to hit you between rolls (talked to one guy that could consistently hit with ambush).
2) curse, detonation, meteor, and mages fury/radiant destruction destroyed me. Players with a few of these could insta-gib me while rolling.

I don't think being able to perma dodge roll makes you unkillable, and somewhat disagree with the premise that it should be prevented (by nerfing enchants or changing champion passive effect).
It seems no more survivable than many other playstyles even when spammed indefinitely.

So, I hate to paraphrase the often repeated adage, but if you are having trouble dealing significant burst to a perma roller, it really might be a learning to adapt issue on the part of the attacker.
Apologies about doing a 180 from my previous post but, I think we're going to get to the point (rather quickly) that most players will be able to infinately spam the abilities of their choice. Only a drastic change can prevent that at this point.
The question is, how do you line up a burst combo strong enough to make it through their defense in one shot. If you can't, you may as well disengage, or turtle while waiting for reinforcements

Kuro1n

jrkhan wrote: »

So, upped my stam regen to get a better feel for perma dodge rolling. Seems that 1) some players are good enough at timing to hit you between rolls (talked to one guy that could consistently hit with ambush).
2) curse, detonation, meteor, and mages fury/radiant destruction destroyed me. Players with a few of these could insta-gib me while rolling.

I don't think being able to perma dodge roll makes you unkillable, and somewhat disagree with the premise that it should be prevented (by nerfing enchants or changing champion passive effect).
It seems no more survivable than many other playstyles even when spammed indefinitely.

So, I hate to use the often repeated adage, but if you are having trouble dealing significant burst to a perma roller, it really might be a learning to adapt issue on the part of the attacker.
Apologies about doing a 180 from my previous post but, I think we're going to get to the point (rather quickly) that most players will be able to infinately spam the abilities of their choice. Only a drastic change can prevent that at this point.
The question is, how do you line up a burst combo strong enough to make it through their defense in one shot. If you can't, you may as well disengage, or turtle while waiting for reinforcements

Pretty much this. Cloak is broken with everyone using detection pots so how else are we NBs supposed to survive anything at all? I have ~3k weapon damage and 55% crit rate with 2k stam regen, I can roll quite a bit but good players can still catch me. If I sacrificed more damage for stam regen I wouldn't do enough damage to kill people considering I can't take a long fight versus someone who uses block etc. Maybe with vigor the situation would be different but the majority of players do not have vigor.

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

So, upped my stam regen to get a better feel for perma dodge rolling. Seems that 1) some players are good enough at timing to hit you between rolls (talked to one guy that could consistently hit with ambush).
2) curse, detonation, meteor, and mages fury/radiant destruction destroyed me. Players with a few of these could insta-gib me while rolling.

I don't think being able to perma dodge roll makes you unkillable, and somewhat disagree with the premise that it should be prevented (by nerfing enchants or changing champion passive effect).
It seems no more survivable than many other playstyles even when spammed indefinitely.

So, I hate to use the often repeated adage, but if you are having trouble dealing significant burst to a perma roller, it really might be a learning to adapt issue on the part of the attacker.
Apologies about doing a 180 from my previous post but, I think we're going to get to the point (rather quickly) that most players will be able to infinately spam the abilities of their choice. Only a drastic change can prevent that at this point.
The question is, how do you line up a burst combo strong enough to make it through their defense in one shot. If you can't, you may as well disengage, or turtle while waiting for reinforcements

Charge abilities are *** and Eric Wroebel likely broke them with his decisions to add a ministun to all charges. That needs fixed. You can pretty much spam a key on a charge ability and you will not charge until you can hit the target and if you cast it unless they dodge roll exactly when you begin charging and even that is broken half the time.

Projectile abilities and spells however do not function like this. I tested this for a good 15 minutes while dodge rolling around my sorc friend and unless I screwed up a double tap she couldn't hit me with any targeted spell. I time my projectile spells to hit my targets the moment they take an action with a GCD that *isn't* a dodge roll.

Mages fury does *not* hit through dodge rolling as that is my primary DPS ability that I spam when not using overload.

No one is saying dodge rolling makes anyone unkillable or is in any way overpowered but it is *is* a very powerful ability and shouldn't be able to easily be reduced to over half of it's original cost which allows it to be used indefinitely.

TheBucket

Wait till your fighting a perma dodge roller in the crusader set. Lol

jrkhan

You are saying it should be harder (require more opportunity cost in gearing choices) to perma roll than the status quo. If that's not what your intent is, you should reevaluate your suggestion, as that is what it would do.

I am not implying that you believe dodge roll is overpowered, despite the fact that you wish to make it more expensive to do. (Have you considered a career in politics? )

Regarding Mages fury, the low health proc will certainly hit mid roll (will insta gib me at current hp values if paired with a critting detonation and curse). Same with meteor, I haven't found rolling to have much effect on that once it's been applied. (Not sure if I'm dodging initial hits, but given how frequently this was showing up on my recap I'd be surprised)

I think there is nice parity between defensive capabilities, in terms of being able to spam them (if anything, I still believe dodge roll is significantly less useful when spammed than some other options)

I don't understand why you would single out perma dodge roll as the ability which should have more opportunity cost to spec for - especially because (as you have stated multiple times), it is not over powered.

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

You are saying it should be harder (require more opportunity cost in gearing choices) to perma roll than the status quo. If that's not what your intent is, you should reevaluate your suggestion, as that is what it would do.

I am not implying that you believe dodge roll is overpowered, despite the fact that you wish to make it more expensive to do. (Have you considered a career in politics? )

Regarding Mages fury, the low health proc will certainly hit mid roll (will insta gib me at current hp values if paired with a critting detonation and curse). Same with meteor, I haven't found rolling to have much effect on that once it's been applied. (Not sure if I'm dodging initial hits, but given how frequently this was showing up on my recap I'd be surprised)

I think there is nice parity between defensive capabilities, in terms of being able to spam them (if anything, I still believe dodge roll is significantly less useful when spammed than some other options)

I don't understand why you would single out perma dodge roll as the ability which should have more opportunity cost to spec for - especially because (as you have stated multiple times), it is not over powered.

Sure mages wrath can proc any time your health drops below 20%, even through a dodge roll but if you're perma-rolling it'd never be applied to you and it only lasts 4 seconds.

Mana detonation and curse can be outhealed, shielded or any host of other solutions while dodging. If you're a night blade running bow + 2 handers your only counter that I can think of would be vigor or using dodge roll around LOS during the mana detonation cast (it is VERY easy to LOS it as it has a long cast time).

Meteor is only countered by block or Defensive Posture if you're a NB. I haven't cast a single meteor in 1.6. Boring and uninspired ultimate much like Soul assault if you ask me (can be effective though).

I singled out dodge roll only because I recognized it as something that could be reduced to zero cost(meaning it could be cast permanently) with very little sacrifice.

I also pointed out the issues with regeneration in the same thread and perhaps that was deserving of its own thread but there are too many "nerf" threads in these forums as it is. I wanted to frame the issue correctly.

Just look at the old Grand Healing. With four people in your group you could cast it (with the right cost reduction sets and magicka cost reduction) infinitely. Sure your group was never invulnerable with this setup but you should not have the ability to permanently cast powerful abilities without some powerful tradeoffs. With grand healing I didn't see any real tradeoffs other than I needed to be using a Resto staff. The cost reduction was already central to my build so I lost nothing at all, I just could cast the ability for free as often as I liked which made my group very powerful. I knew it was being abused in PvP and PvE during this time, I just wanted to bring the issue to attention to the devs since it appears that they rarely notice the flaws they build into their own game (a common trait of designers).

Dodge roll is no different. I'm currently able to dodge roll now 8 times in a row as a Sorc(using a pot of course) and it is only going to get easier for me from here.

jrkhan

10k curse (though typically more like 6-8k) is not exactly easy to heal through while using every global cooldown to dodge. If I use an ability which heals between dodge rolls, I'm vulnerable for a few frames (correct me if I'm wrong, maybe my timing is just off) to things like mages fury, and every insta cast cc. During the few frames of the subsequent break free, I've usually been 3-shot, or had enough damage applied that I'm not going to outheal it.

Also in my own experience attempting to kill a chain dodge roller, I've found it significantly easier than dealing with magika builds of any class (in cases where the player is trying to survive/escape). All heals at this point are essentially "free" by your definition, as are all damage shieldS, and so is blocking if there are fewer than 3 attackers.

Really, dodge rolling is a self stun, that costs resources, and puts you at a predictable location. Even if resources are no longer a concern, it's not free the way healing springs was, as that continues to benefit you and your party after the cast, while you are free to continue acting while the benefit persists. If a dodge roll granted you and your party additional resources after casting, then I'd agree the two were equivalent. Anyway... in the current meta you can infinitely cast the heal of your choice.... So if it was a problem before it's certainly a problem now.

Tankqull

jrkhan wrote: »

10k curse (though typically more like 6-8k) is not exactly easy to heal through while using every global cooldown to dodge. If I use an ability which heals between dodge rolls, I'm vulnerable for a few frames (correct me if I'm wrong, maybe my timing is just off) to things like mages fury, and every insta cast cc. During the few frames of the subsequent break free, I've usually been 3-shot, or had enough damage applied that I'm not going to outheal it.

well do not forget to cancel your heal animation if you are waiting for it to be ended automatically you are vulnurable to attacks - if you do cancel them you are not.(most of them a few circumvent dodge rolling anyway)

Velcon

It's impossible to roll permanently, something always stops you . One stun = dead. If they do somehow change it (which would make sorcs even more op), it will still be possible.

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

10k curse (though typically more like 6-8k) is not exactly easy to heal through while using every global cooldown to dodge. If I use an ability which heals between dodge rolls, I'm vulnerable for a few frames (correct me if I'm wrong, maybe my timing is just off) to things like mages fury, and every insta cast cc. During the few frames of the subsequent break free, I've usually been 3-shot, or had enough damage applied that I'm not going to outheal it.

Also in my own experience attempting to kill a chain dodge roller, I've found it significantly easier than dealing with magika builds of any class (in cases where the player is trying to survive/escape). All heals at this point are essentially "free" by your definition, as are all damage shieldS, and so is blocking if there are fewer than 3 attackers.

Really, dodge rolling is a self stun, that costs resources, and puts you at a predictable location. Even if resources are no longer a concern, it's not free the way healing springs was, as that continues to benefit you and your party after the cast, while you are free to continue acting while the benefit persists. If a dodge roll granted you and your party additional resources after casting, then I'd agree the two were equivalent. Anyway... in the current meta you can infinitely cast the heal of your choice.... So if it was a problem before it's certainly a problem now.

Don't forget curse can only be cast at best every 3.5 seconds, usually around 4 seconds.

Blocking is never "free". When you're being targetted while spamming damage shields you always have to save enough stamina for the break free from the inevitable CC. I only block certain abilities but never hold block as so many things can completely drain you of stamina while giving you zero before for holding block with damage shields.

Mages wrath has a "travel time" from when you cast it so if I wait for your opponent to use an ability before you cast it, if he goes right into a dodge roll after you'll miss him. If I anticipate the player casting an ability and I time my cast perfectly I have a good chance to hit them during that small window but it isn't easy or guaranteed.

I cast abilities into dodge rolls all the time. I'll often kill people while dodge rolling continuously into them. This is my preferred tactic when being aggressive towards a group of players while targeting what I've identified as a key or defenseless target (usually free-AP players). Abilities and dodge rolls are on seperate GCDs much as weapon attacks are.

Casting a damage shield actually makes you far more vulnerable than a dodge roll and the same with any other offensive or defensive abilities. I often die because I chose to cast purge or mines instead of refreshing my damage shields and during that GCD my health dropped to zero before I could get my damage shield back up. Those examples are usually against multiple opponents unless it is a good max range bow user but Spamming my damage shields (or bolt escape) removes my ability to do anything else except block, dodge roll or light/heavy attack.

Infinite heals and damage shields mean that you're locked into that position while your targets continue to pound on you. We've all see the many templar go down because they're stuck standing there spamming their heals until the amount of incoming damage outpaces what they can heal as more and more people pile on. That's a good balance in my ability. I can't attack and spam my shields at the same time, I have to alternate and if the damage outpaces what my shields can absorb I'm usually dead unless I've saved enough stamina to pull off a couple of dodge roll bolt-escapes to try to wing it without shields until I'm far enough away.

Ezareth

Velcon wrote: »

It's impossible to roll permanently, something always stops you . One stun = dead. If they do somehow change it (which would make sorcs even more op), it will still be possible.

There is counters to *everything* in game which is as it should be. I've seen people (usually DKs) pull off a break free after being stunned and continue rolling away. I'm fine with all of that, but the expectation should be that no matter what there will always be a "cost" to the ability and with the current medium armor/stam-reduction meta that isn't the case.

Velcon

Everyone will be Op with the correct build, gear and Cp. Atm everyone can almost do it. We will all be mini emperor soon. I can already beat emperor's. Medium= infinite stamina ( can almost do it), magic = infinite magicka(most sorcs can do it), and most dk can permablock.

jrkhan

Okay, want to recap/try to find some common ground, so I don't keep repeating the same points.

What exactly do you mean by free?

I assume we can agree that:

If dodge roll were "free of opportunitu cost" I would expect a player could (amongst other things) achieve the same dps weaving instant attacks with rolls, as they could if they just spammed the instant attack.
Since this is definately untrue (even for users of certain 5 piece sets), can we at least agree that dodge rolling has opportunity costs?

If you mean "free" as in, allows the user to regain the cost of the ability during the duration of the ability, then can we at least agree that this also applies to many other abilities?

Could you confirm that we agree on the above two points?

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

Okay, want to recap/try to find some common ground, so I don't keep repeating the same points.

What exactly do you mean by free?

I assume we can agree that:

If dodge roll were "free of opportunitu cost" I would expect a player could (amongst other things) achieve the same dps weaving instant attacks with rolls, as they could if they just spammed the instant attack.
Since this is definately untrue (even for users of certain 5 piece sets), can we at least agree that dodge rolling has opportunity costs?

If you mean "free" as in, allows the user to regain the cost of the ability during the duration of the ability, then can we at least agree that this also applies to many other abilities?

Could you confirm that we agree on the above two points?

I only mean free from a pure resource perspective. Obviously every action has an opportunity cost and there are a finite number of actions you can perform in a given period of time.

Your second point I agree to somewhat but would note that the threshold needed to achieve that lack of cost is much lower and the sacrifice is less as well.

I'm glad you at least of all the people debating your side have thus far kept a rational and factual point of view.

Vordae

So dodge roll is the stam version of shield spamming. Seems balanced to me at the moment. I hope they get pvp balance much closer to actually balance then it currently is.

Varicite

Vordae wrote: »

So dodge roll is the stam version of shield spamming. Seems balanced to me at the moment. I hope they get pvp balance much closer to actually balance then it currently is.

Basically, yeah.

Shields block more types of damage at the cost of making you a sitting duck unless your class has some type of escape (BE, basically, since the other shield classes don't have escapes and the other class w/ escapes doesn't have a shield).

Gorthax

NoRefunds wrote: »

LOL this coming from a sorc is hilarious, i can bolt escape 15 meters away for 15 times but you cant roll dodge 3 meters away, right? Dodge roll is also super easy to counter,if you CC them they die, i kill the roll dodgers with lotus fan+ fear since they both cant be dodged, but i have NO WAY of killing a sorc bolt escaping away with shields on, ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR 90% of the people, infact now good players dont even try to kill a sorc, its a waste of time....but yeah nerf roll dodge

sounds like you need to equip a 2H sword for crit charge.....works everytime

Durham

What's the problem here..
Nothing wrong with Dodge Roll there are a ton of abilities that nullfy it....

Gorthax

Durham wrote: »

What's the problem here..
Nothing wrong with Dodge Roll there are a ton of abilities that nullfy it....

do tell if you mean soft cc.......guess what lol dodge roll the second it happens or do you mean skills that get through dodge roll to which I think there are 4?

Varicite

Honestly, Dodge Roll is designed TO BE the counter to most skills, so yeah, not much is going to get through it.

I can concede that I don't think we're intended to be able to do it so much, but so long as the option still exists for Magicka builds to spam shields + heals that counter ALL damage just as much as a stam build can dodge roll, I don't really see the issue.

I'm not opposed to an across-the-board reduction in potency, though. But w/ the current meta of uber-low TTKs, I'm not sure that people would actually WANT this...

Ace_SiN

jrkhan wrote: »

So, upped my stam regen to get a better feel for perma dodge rolling. Seems that 1) some players are good enough at timing to hit you between rolls (talked to one guy that could consistently hit with ambush).
2) curse, detonation, meteor, and mages fury/radiant destruction destroyed me. Players with a few of these could insta-gib me while rolling.

I don't think being able to perma dodge roll makes you unkillable, and somewhat disagree with the premise that it should be prevented (by nerfing enchants or changing champion passive effect).
It seems no more survivable than many other playstyles even when spammed indefinitely.

So, I hate to paraphrase the often repeated adage, but if you are having trouble dealing significant burst to a perma roller, it really might be a learning to adapt issue on the part of the attacker.
Apologies about doing a 180 from my previous post but, I think we're going to get to the point (rather quickly) that most players will be able to infinately spam the abilities of their choice. Only a drastic change can prevent that at this point.
The question is, how do you line up a burst combo strong enough to make it through their defense in one shot. If you can't, you may as well disengage, or turtle while waiting for reinforcements

This. "Perma dodge roll" spamming is the dumbest way to attempt to survive against a good player. You will be wrecked hard every time.

Soulac

You can´t dodge:
Jabs, templar heal debuff, Concealed Weapon, Whip, Lightning / Healing Staff Heavy Attacks, Meteors, Curse, Soul Strike, cheesus beam, teleport strike, ground target abilitys, deadric mines and other abilitys i couldn´t think of right now.
Also you can´t dodge stuns like Fear, this templar stun, petrify or BoL.

In addition to that it´s not possible to dodge cancel with high dps at the same time, so you either go half defense / half offense and won´t kill good players or you risk your live since dodge is your ONLY defense, at least for NBs without any shields.


Now tell me about skills ignoring your dmg shields

Ezareth

Soulac wrote: »

You can´t dodge:
Jabs, templar heal debuff, Concealed Weapon, Whip, Lightning / Healing Staff Heavy Attacks, Meteors, Curse, Soul Strike, cheesus beam, teleport strike, ground target abilitys, deadric mines and other abilitys i couldn´t think of right now.
Also you can´t dodge stuns like Fear, this templar stun, petrify or BoL.

In addition to that it´s not possible to dodge cancel with high dps at the same time, so you either go half defense / half offense and won´t kill good players or you risk your live since dodge is your ONLY defense, at least for NBs without any shields.


Now tell me about skills ignoring your dmg shields

You can Dodge Daedric mines fine. Just don't freaking dodge THROUGH them and they won't do anything but sit there looking pretty.

Damage Shields don't prevent CC either (Except the bugged defensive posture reflect)

Either way, Damage Shields != Dodge roll.

One is a spell, costs magicka and a slot on your bar and absorbs a finite amount of damage for the duration of the spell. The other is a combat mechanic, costs stamina and dodges an infinite amount of damage from sources that are dodge-able for the duration of the roll.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Shields are WAY stronger than dodge. I'm not fighting back while I'm dodging, even if its only for a second at a time, but consecutively. You can have shields up and continue to attack until they are gone and just recast.

cozmon3c_ESO

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Shields are WAY stronger than dodge. I'm not fighting back while I'm dodging, even if its only for a second at a time, but consecutively. You can have shields up and continue to attack until they are gone and just recast.

the difference that you dont seem to see is that while roll dodging you can weave in abilities and still take almost no damage, but with a Damage Shield you cannot weave in abilities but have to eat up the global cooldown while still eating all incoming damage.

big difference, putting roll dodge a head of shields.

Methuselah

Armitas wrote: »

this ^