Rise of The Perma-Dodger

TheBucket

Ezareth wrote: »

I'm open to all realistic scenarios, my suggestions as I noted were minor and would not fix the overall issues. This is why I rerolled a stamina nightblade. Because sometimes you can't just make a point, you have to prove it.

Making a point is one thing. People just don't agree with you.

But feel free to "prove a point" by rolling a class.

Lava_Croft

Anyone defending the ridiculous dodgerolling at this point should also help out the forum Magicka Sorcerers with defending their ridiculous situation.

Ezareth

TheBucket wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I'm open to all realistic scenarios, my suggestions as I noted were minor and would not fix the overall issues. This is why I rerolled a stamina nightblade. Because sometimes you can't just make a point, you have to prove it.

Making a point is one thing. People just don't agree with you.

But feel free to "prove a point" by rolling a class.

Many people do agree with me. In fact "Perma-roller" has become a pretty common term to describe a stamina build these days. I only offered my suggestions to help the problem, not demand that they be done. My primary goal was to bring visibility to the problem within both the community and the development team whom I'm sure are aware.

Me rolling a class is to prove many points, not just one. Actions always speak louder to people than words.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Anyone defending the ridiculous dodgerolling at this point should also help out the forum Magicka Sorcerers with defending their ridiculous situation.

Keep in mind this thread and my position is also aimed at eliminating what you define as a "Sorc" problem. I see it as a resource problem myself but sorcs benefit the most from it right now so I'm not opposed to you defining it in that light with the understanding the issue lies with resources and not actual skills.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I think rolling forever is just as bad as shielding forever both make most of your damage output meaningless but to change one and not the other would be worst then leaving them both as is.

As it stands all class but Nightblades have a class shield with a restoration staff damage, and a magic damage shield all pulling magic and stamina has the laughable Bone Shield, Shield Assault a gap closer and Brawler a Two Handed DoT that grants a damage shield and is know to fail so shield stacking and spamming can't be used by both builds to the same effect seen as the stamina shields are considerably weaker as just one point

Simply put as you can eat 30k damage with two shields stamina build can roll 30k damage with two buttons rolling and shields need a nice hard look changing one only favors the other

Tankqull

woodsro wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Dodge Roll is *not* an escape skill. It's an evade skill, there's a huge difference in the distinction. Bolt Escape can be coupled with Dodge Roll to become a more effective Escape. Dodge Roll by itself can be used to escape if there are safe havens close by but usually a dodge roller using it to escape *by itself* instead of attack ends up dying.

Your first issue is you're using Stamina Regen enchants instead of Stamina Cost reduction enchants. Why you think that is even remotely a good idea, especially as a Sorc and reading my thread is beyond me.

Secondly Stamina cost reduction(Warlord) champion points don't impact dodge rolls...tumbling does.

Secondly, you *can* use good sets as well as a dodge roll set. The Requirements are Stamina/Magicka Drink. Medium Armor. and Stamina Cost Reduction enchants. If you can get even 1 or 2 Stamina regen passives on your sets then you're Golden.

In your case you should be a Werewolf, be running full Medium Armor (28% Dodge roll reduction, 28% Stamina Regen) be using Tri-pots (+20%) and with 20 points into stamina regen

You could be running both full Shadow Walker and Way of the Air sets (There are plenty of other combos as well) to get 3 Stamina Regen bonuses.

Base Regen 514
3 Set bonuses (373)
V10 Mag/Stam Drink 372

1259 Base
1448 Werewolf
1800 Medium Armor
2052 Tri-Pot
20 Points into Mooncalf: 2218 Magicka Regen

With 20 points into Tumbling the cost of your dodge roll would be reduced to 2062 Stamina from the base 3591.

With this while popping Tripots you could dodge roll every 1.72 seconds without every dropping below 100% stamina.

Keep in mind that you're a freaking Sorc! You don't have a Racial bonus or a Class bonus that benefits playing a stamina build. There are players who have it far easier. Bosmer have 21% more stamina regen. Redguard 9%. Nightblades have 30% plus abilities that increase it by another 10%. Dks have stamina regen options as well.

With your current build my suggestions wouldn't impact you at all since you're not even using Stamina Cost reduction enchants to start with. It just seems like you're drinking the kool-aid or something here. You usually are way off base, but this is over the top. Can't even Scratch Hardened Ward? What an absurd comment.

As far as Bastion making Ward Strong, Damage Scaling in the champion System *far* exceeds the defensive increase provided by stacking points into Bastion. For one bastion is a single ability with rapidly diminishing returns and there are at least 2 abilities to increase most physical attacks in the game that will diminish far slower since they're put into mulitple abilities, not to mention those increasing abilities are multiplicative with other damage increasing abilities and passives while Basiton is not.

My apologies, I meant Stamina cost reduction enchants not regen, I have been running 3 cost reduction enchants since i switched. I am a Breton, but in the case of a Sorc its for good reason. The Magic Cost Reduction and Max Magic makes it possible to keep Critical Surge and Boundless Storm up as needed much easier, and Surge + Momentum allows me to have both a HOT and a good chunk heal(Surge) when i need it adding some flexibility. I can hit over 50% crit right now and haven't even gotten the Champ Passive for the 12% yet. Its also far more friendly to pop Streak occasionally when in melee with two handed if you need that short stun to finish someone off. The 10% max magic and cost reduction makes this easier on my resource pools. The downside is i don't have the bosmer or redguard stamina bonus nor the nightblade passive, but i do have Bound Armaments for more max stamina and an 11% increase to heavy attack damage.

I do have points in both Warlord and Tumbling. I thought about going Werewolf, but decided on Vampire instead. I not only have a 10% boost to magic and stamina regen, improved stealth movement speed, but Clouding Swarm is too good for me to pass up.

I didn't take Tri-pots into consideration, but with The Air Set + 3 pieces of Nights Silence + Purple drink i can hit a little over 1900 stamina regen if im not mistaken.(Just an example) This includes 20 points in Mooncalf, 7 pieces of Med Armor, and the +10% Vamp passive. Tri-pot should put that over 2k. That wouldn't be as good as a Bosmer WW nightblade, but its not terrible either.

I was going to run Shadow Walker, but I have found the Covenant Eagle Eye set to be very good. I use it in conjunction with Focused Aim and it gives me an 8 meter increase in the range of my bow abilities. This is not counting when close a keep i get even more with the reach passive. It allows me to hit from farther away, while also making it easier to stay out of range of interrupts. Its insane how far it can reach which has its own advantages.

I was messing around the other night(still haven't decided 100% on what gear i want to use, Crusader and Air set is good but still weighing other options), and just for giggles i had my weapon damage up to i want to say...2.5k or so, perhaps a bit more. Anyways, a few times i popped Surge from stealth(weapon damge boost) Focused Aim + Light Attack + Poison Injection and seen it all absorbed by Ward spam. Now please understand, I can put that rotation on a full out tank wearing 7 pieces of heavy armor and put a huge dent in his HP, while not even putting a scratch on the Sorc's HP bar. Again, I won't call for any kind of damage shield nerf, I am just saying i "understand or sympathize" with how these folks can get frustrated with shield stacking from this perspective. I just wait until their shield is down now and instant kill them with a 3 attack burst(4 if camo hunter procs)

This is also why after now seeing things from the opposite side of the fence, dodge roll and such should be left alone. If magic users are able to absorb damage with shields(in essence trading magic for a temporary extension of max HP as well as being able to heal and burst heal) Stamina users should be able to dodge roll, cheap if speced that way, to avoid damage.

Please understand, Magic Sorcs should absolutely stack magic and use Ward, it makes sense for them to do so. I can't see any positives to stacking HP as a magic based Sorc, there is simply no incentive to.


I think Damage Shields should be left alone, and I think dodge roll should be left alone As both stamina and magic users should be allowed to enjoy their cheese. (for now)

After the Nirnhoned nonsense is addressed(which after seeing it in action, you were right it does need adjusted) Magic Sorcs are in a very good place. The crux comes down to this:

If Sorc's can Ward and Ball of Lighting away and run to avoid fighting, run from zerg, or set up more favorable fights, then stamina users should be able to barrell roll. Both of these mechanics are equally annoying to both parties on both sides of the fence. As a magic Sorc i used to get annoyed that dodge rollers could dodge my Mage's Wrath executes, and Crystal Frags, Crushing Shock, etc. I am sure the stamina user is equally annoyed that i could stack Hardned Ward, Heal up with Healing Ward, and Bolt Escape into the sun set.

At this juncture, one can't exist without the other, Both are equally annoying, yet they must co-exist. It will continue this way until certain core game mechanics are addressed.

Do understand, I do not want this to turn into an argument. I know we both have our views, and we both do our best to express them in a respectful manner. I have said my piece on this issue. I am not drinking any kool-aid, and I now give you the floor for your closing statements on the issue, as I do respect you as not only a player, but as big part of this community. You go out of your way to help other Sorc's, that says a lot about you, it speaks volumes actually. Regardless, its been educational talking to you, i always pickup something new speaking to you, so thank you for that.

do that against a full tank and all you see is your dmg beeing compensated by his natural health reg rate on the next tick. without any set bonusses his dmg reduction by blocking of your projectiles is around 90%.

TheBucket

the average player cannot roll forever. A good player who can manage resources can dodge roll for a very long time. Seems like forever because the fight will be over before they run out of stamina.

Doesnt mean it needs nerfed because a good player can manage his resources. That would ve like nerfing a good sorc because of BoL or a good NB for shadow cloak.

Lava_Croft

TheBucket wrote: »

the average player cannot roll forever. A good player who can manage resources can dodge roll for a very long time. Seems like forever because the fight will be over before they run out of stamina.

Doesnt mean it needs nerfed because a good player can manage his resources. That would ve like nerfing a good sorc because of BoL or a good NB for shadow cloak.

Except both BoL and dodgerolling have no counter, while Cloak has a whole list of counters.

Tintinabula

Lava_Croft wrote: »

TheBucket wrote: »

the average player cannot roll forever. A good player who can manage resources can dodge roll for a very long time. Seems like forever because the fight will be over before they run out of stamina.

Doesnt mean it needs nerfed because a good player can manage his resources. That would ve like nerfing a good sorc because of BoL or a good NB for shadow cloak.

Except both BoL and dodgerolling have no counter, while Cloak has a whole list of counters.

I am able to crit rush a BOLer atleast 5-6 times with my stam build same with invade..out of those six times if I have popped a potion and cast shuffle I'm not stunned and they are..each time their health goes down...unless they take the time to recast ward or heal themselves..the ones who don't are usually caught.Its not 100% but its definitely a work around.

Spangla

ESO PVP 1.6 Problems.

1. Stamina Regeneration
2. Sorc:)

pppontus

Lava_Croft wrote: »

TheBucket wrote: »

the average player cannot roll forever. A good player who can manage resources can dodge roll for a very long time. Seems like forever because the fight will be over before they run out of stamina.

Doesnt mean it needs nerfed because a good player can manage his resources. That would ve like nerfing a good sorc because of BoL or a good NB for shadow cloak.

Except both BoL and dodgerolling have no counter, while Cloak has a whole list of counters.

BoL - All stamina based attacks, gap closers and non-projectiles

Dodge Roll - Concealed Weapon, Teleport Strike, Lava Whip, Velocious Curse and more I'm sure I'm forgetting

No counters? Hm.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

pppontus wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

TheBucket wrote: »

the average player cannot roll forever. A good player who can manage resources can dodge roll for a very long time. Seems like forever because the fight will be over before they run out of stamina.

Doesnt mean it needs nerfed because a good player can manage his resources. That would ve like nerfing a good sorc because of BoL or a good NB for shadow cloak.

Except both BoL and dodgerolling have no counter, while Cloak has a whole list of counters.

BoL - All stamina based attacks, gap closers and non-projectiles

Dodge Roll - Concealed Weapon, Teleport Strike, Lava Whip, Velocious Curse and more I'm sure I'm forgetting

No counters? Hm.

Not Teleport Strike you port not to them no damage done though bitting jabs can't be dodged

pppontus

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

TheBucket wrote: »

the average player cannot roll forever. A good player who can manage resources can dodge roll for a very long time. Seems like forever because the fight will be over before they run out of stamina.

Doesnt mean it needs nerfed because a good player can manage his resources. That would ve like nerfing a good sorc because of BoL or a good NB for shadow cloak.

Except both BoL and dodgerolling have no counter, while Cloak has a whole list of counters.

BoL - All stamina based attacks, gap closers and non-projectiles

Dodge Roll - Concealed Weapon, Teleport Strike, Lava Whip, Velocious Curse and more I'm sure I'm forgetting

No counters? Hm.

Not Teleport Strike you port not to them no damage done though bitting jabs can't be dodged

Ambush morph does not hit through dodge, Teleport Strike does. Almost 100% sure.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

pppontus wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

TheBucket wrote: »

the average player cannot roll forever. A good player who can manage resources can dodge roll for a very long time. Seems like forever because the fight will be over before they run out of stamina.

Doesnt mean it needs nerfed because a good player can manage his resources. That would ve like nerfing a good sorc because of BoL or a good NB for shadow cloak.

Except both BoL and dodgerolling have no counter, while Cloak has a whole list of counters.

BoL - All stamina based attacks, gap closers and non-projectiles

Dodge Roll - Concealed Weapon, Teleport Strike, Lava Whip, Velocious Curse and more I'm sure I'm forgetting

No counters? Hm.

Not Teleport Strike you port not to them no damage done though bitting jabs can't be dodged

Ambush morph does not hit through dodge, Teleport Strike does. Almost 100% sure.

that's awesome for Magic Nightblades

pppontus

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

TheBucket wrote: »

the average player cannot roll forever. A good player who can manage resources can dodge roll for a very long time. Seems like forever because the fight will be over before they run out of stamina.

Doesnt mean it needs nerfed because a good player can manage his resources. That would ve like nerfing a good sorc because of BoL or a good NB for shadow cloak.

Except both BoL and dodgerolling have no counter, while Cloak has a whole list of counters.

BoL - All stamina based attacks, gap closers and non-projectiles

Dodge Roll - Concealed Weapon, Teleport Strike, Lava Whip, Velocious Curse and more I'm sure I'm forgetting

No counters? Hm.

Not Teleport Strike you port not to them no damage done though bitting jabs can't be dodged

Ambush morph does not hit through dodge, Teleport Strike does. Almost 100% sure.

that's awesome for Magic Nightblades

Yes, there are no stamina counters. Just saying, no one can claim "there is no counter" if there are counters.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

[/quote]

Yes, there are no stamina counters. Just saying, no one can claim "there is no counter" if there are counters. [/quote]

it took a year for them to buff stamina so in 3.4 look for a stamina counter for rolling besides rolling with them

Soulac

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, there are no stamina counters. Just saying, no one can claim "there is no counter" if there are counters.

it took a year for them to buff stamina so in 3.4 look for a stamina counter for rolling besides rolling with them

Counter against the Magicka counters.. Nirnhoned

Heavy lightning and Resto also ignores dodge. Same for the Templar debuff and soul Strike / jesus beam.

Varicite

Does Flurry hit through dodge rolling?

I was under the impression that all channeled skills would still work against dodge rolling.

Soulac

Varicite wrote: »

Does Flurry hit through dodge rolling?

I was under the impression that all channeled skills would still work against dodge rolling.

Physical dmg -> dodge able
Same as steel tornado is dodge able, but Sap Essence isn't.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Soulac wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, there are no stamina counters. Just saying, no one can claim "there is no counter" if there are counters.

it took a year for them to buff stamina so in 3.4 look for a stamina counter for rolling besides rolling with them

Counter against the Magicka counters.. Nirnhoned

Heavy lightning and Resto also ignores dodge. Same for the Templar debuff and soul Strike / jesus beam.

any channeled attack that starts beofre you roll will stay on you cause you are not removing the Channel Dot or breaking LOS

Soulac

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, there are no stamina counters. Just saying, no one can claim "there is no counter" if there are counters.

it took a year for them to buff stamina so in 3.4 look for a stamina counter for rolling besides rolling with them

Counter against the Magicka counters.. Nirnhoned

Heavy lightning and Resto also ignores dodge. Same for the Templar debuff and soul Strike / jesus beam.

any channeled attack that starts beofre you roll will stay on you cause you are not removing the Channel Dot or breaking LOS

That's basically what I said.

eventide03b14a_ESO

God I hate these threads.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Soulac wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, there are no stamina counters. Just saying, no one can claim "there is no counter" if there are counters.

it took a year for them to buff stamina so in 3.4 look for a stamina counter for rolling besides rolling with them

Counter against the Magicka counters.. Nirnhoned

Heavy lightning and Resto also ignores dodge. Same for the Templar debuff and soul Strike / jesus beam.

any channeled attack that starts beofre you roll will stay on you cause you are not removing the Channel Dot or breaking LOS

That's basically what I said.

some people would have seen your post and said it was a Bug like people think that Surprise Attack stunning you from stealth was a bug cause it don't stun outside of stun people are crazy

Soulac

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes, there are no stamina counters. Just saying, no one can claim "there is no counter" if there are counters.

it took a year for them to buff stamina so in 3.4 look for a stamina counter for rolling besides rolling with them

Counter against the Magicka counters.. Nirnhoned

Heavy lightning and Resto also ignores dodge. Same for the Templar debuff and soul Strike / jesus beam.

any channeled attack that starts beofre you roll will stay on you cause you are not removing the Channel Dot or breaking LOS

That's basically what I said.

some people would have seen your post and said it was a Bug like people think that Surprise Attack stunning you from stealth was a bug cause it don't stun outside of stun people are crazy

True..

Joy_Division

woodsro wrote: »

If Sorc's can Ward and Ball of Lighting away and run to avoid fighting, run from zerg, or set up more favorable fights, then stamina users should be able to barrell roll. Both of these mechanics are equally annoying to both parties on both sides of the fence. As a magic Sorc i used to get annoyed that dodge rollers could dodge my Mage's Wrath executes, and Crystal Frags, Crushing Shock, etc. I am sure the stamina user is equally annoyed that i could stack Hardned Ward, Heal up with Healing Ward, and Bolt Escape into the sun set.

At this juncture, one can't exist without the other, Both are equally annoying, yet they must co-exist. It will continue this way until certain core game mechanics are addressed.

If this is fair and balanced with respect to sorcs and stamina players...what do magicka templars and DKs do? Stand their ground and die.

Regen rates are out of control.

Varicite

Joy_Division wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

If Sorc's can Ward and Ball of Lighting away and run to avoid fighting, run from zerg, or set up more favorable fights, then stamina users should be able to barrell roll. Both of these mechanics are equally annoying to both parties on both sides of the fence. As a magic Sorc i used to get annoyed that dodge rollers could dodge my Mage's Wrath executes, and Crystal Frags, Crushing Shock, etc. I am sure the stamina user is equally annoyed that i could stack Hardned Ward, Heal up with Healing Ward, and Bolt Escape into the sun set.

At this juncture, one can't exist without the other, Both are equally annoying, yet they must co-exist. It will continue this way until certain core game mechanics are addressed.

If this is fair and balanced with respect to sorcs and stamina players...what do magicka templars and DKs do? Stand their ground and die.

Regen rates are out of control.

This is now a petition for escape mechanics for DKs and Templars.