Rise of The Perma-Dodger

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Second, *all* Champion regeneration passives need to be made additive like other resources of regeneration instead of being multiplicative.

And/Or they could nerf drinks a bit. Base regen values aren't that easy to come by, and as you say, all the % increases are only a big deal if your base is high enough.
I'm not a big fan of basing decisions around chugging tri-pots either.
A small % of players are both using drinks over food, and chugging pots.
If you can't perma roll without those things, then I think the core mechanics are okay, and the issue is with consumables.

I've made over a million gold since coming back a little over a month ago. I'm certain other players are going to realize there really isn't a point to stockpiling gold and there is very little to spend it on. Chugging tri-pots for non-casual players is easily feasible.

I don't think drinks should be nerfed as they are (while very powerful) finally an excellent alternative to food.

Really the point is as a non-casual PvPer in medium armor, the ability to dodge roll without any concern to the cost of the ability is a given.

The same is true of casters right now as well. We can cast without concern to the cost of the spell (with the obvious exception of Bolt Escape I must add before the nerfherders chime in).

xylena

WTB soft caps on regen stats... infinite resource builds are the problem, not dodging or bolting or shields

Emma_Overload

Ezareth wrote: »

@Emma_Eunjung if you'd read everything without jumping to conclusions you'd see that it is *Very* easy for a medium armor build to have 2K stamina regen without being Bosmer and without being a werewolf.

Secondly, I'm not whining at all, I'm pointing out a flaw in the system. *No* defensive ability should be able to be cast perpetually without a Cost. I brought this same issue up back in the day to Brian Wheeler about Grand Healing being able to be permacast due to the insane magicka return and *I was the one exploiting this and 3-manning keeps with it*. He forwarded that on to the devs and they fixed it in the next patch. This is no different.

Lastly, my suggestions don't change PvE players or Sorcs in the slightest. No PvE player running a stamina build needs to dodge roll perpetually, and no PvE Sorc is running triple(or any) stamina cost reduction enchants. These changes wont impact them in the slightest. I however am now exploiting this broken enchant and am running triple Stamina cost reduction as a Magicka sorc!

It's hilarious how you've taken it upon yourself to DECIDE for other players what they need or don't need:

"Lastly, my suggestions don't change PvE players or Sorcs in the slightest. No PvE player running a stamina build needs to dodge roll perpetually, and no PvE Sorc is running triple(or any) stamina cost reduction enchants. These changes wont impact them in the slightest."

This is totally false and is a CLASSIC example of how PvP gripes (and nerfs) screw up PvE. What you don't seem to understand is that the things that seem like "exploits" to a PvP player are STRATEGIES for hardcore PvE players. RIght now I can guarantee you some virtuoso solo PvE player is desperately theory-crafting a build around "perma-dodging" or whatever you call it so that he can use it to farm group dungeons that were previously impossible to solo. Heck, after reading this thread... I'm trying to do it!

You PvP guys can start all the cry-for-nerf threads you want - that's your prerogative. But please don't pretend the nerfs you're asking for won't screw up the game for PvE players. It's just insulting.

Kuro1n

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

@Emma_Eunjung if you'd read everything without jumping to conclusions you'd see that it is *Very* easy for a medium armor build to have 2K stamina regen without being Bosmer and without being a werewolf.

Secondly, I'm not whining at all, I'm pointing out a flaw in the system. *No* defensive ability should be able to be cast perpetually without a Cost. I brought this same issue up back in the day to Brian Wheeler about Grand Healing being able to be permacast due to the insane magicka return and *I was the one exploiting this and 3-manning keeps with it*. He forwarded that on to the devs and they fixed it in the next patch. This is no different.

Lastly, my suggestions don't change PvE players or Sorcs in the slightest. No PvE player running a stamina build needs to dodge roll perpetually, and no PvE Sorc is running triple(or any) stamina cost reduction enchants. These changes wont impact them in the slightest. I however am now exploiting this broken enchant and am running triple Stamina cost reduction as a Magicka sorc!

It's hilarious how you've taken it upon yourself to DECIDE for other players what they need or don't need:

"Lastly, my suggestions don't change PvE players or Sorcs in the slightest. No PvE player running a stamina build needs to dodge roll perpetually, and no PvE Sorc is running triple(or any) stamina cost reduction enchants. These changes wont impact them in the slightest."

This is totally false and is a CLASSIC example of how PvP gripes (and nerfs) screw up PvE. What you don't seem to understand is that the things that seem like "exploits" to a PvP player are STRATEGIES for hardcore PvE players. RIght now I can guarantee you some virtuoso solo PvE player is desperately theory-crafting a build around "perma-dodging" or whatever you call it so that he can use it to farm group dungeons that were previously impossible to solo. Heck, after reading this thread... I'm trying to do it!

You PvP guys can start all the cry-for-nerf threads you want - that's your prerogative. But please don't pretend the nerfs you're asking for won't screw up the game for PvE players. It's just insulting.

While I don't agree with OP and think it is fine atm (as a PVPer). HOWEVER how can it take until NOW for you PVEers to find this? This is stuff that was figured out like over a month ago... 2 months?

Ezareth

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

@Emma_Eunjung if you'd read everything without jumping to conclusions you'd see that it is *Very* easy for a medium armor build to have 2K stamina regen without being Bosmer and without being a werewolf.

Secondly, I'm not whining at all, I'm pointing out a flaw in the system. *No* defensive ability should be able to be cast perpetually without a Cost. I brought this same issue up back in the day to Brian Wheeler about Grand Healing being able to be permacast due to the insane magicka return and *I was the one exploiting this and 3-manning keeps with it*. He forwarded that on to the devs and they fixed it in the next patch. This is no different.

Lastly, my suggestions don't change PvE players or Sorcs in the slightest. No PvE player running a stamina build needs to dodge roll perpetually, and no PvE Sorc is running triple(or any) stamina cost reduction enchants. These changes wont impact them in the slightest. I however am now exploiting this broken enchant and am running triple Stamina cost reduction as a Magicka sorc!

It's hilarious how you've taken it upon yourself to DECIDE for other players what they need or don't need:

"Lastly, my suggestions don't change PvE players or Sorcs in the slightest. No PvE player running a stamina build needs to dodge roll perpetually, and no PvE Sorc is running triple(or any) stamina cost reduction enchants. These changes wont impact them in the slightest."

This is totally false and is a CLASSIC example of how PvP gripes (and nerfs) screw up PvE. What you don't seem to understand is that the things that seem like "exploits" to a PvP player are STRATEGIES for hardcore PvE players. RIght now I can guarantee you some virtuoso solo PvE player is desperately theory-crafting a build around "perma-dodging" or whatever you call it so that he can use it to farm group dungeons that were previously impossible to solo. Heck, after reading this thread... I'm trying to do it!

You PvP guys can start all the cry-for-nerf threads you want - that's your prerogative. But please don't pretend the nerfs you're asking for won't screw up the game for PvE players. It's just insulting.

I'm not "crying" for anything. I'm calling for balance and it has nothing to do with my inability to kill people or my frustration at anything in general. As I said my suggestions impact me right now just as much or more than anyone. I'm doing this in the name of balance. I've spent much of my life designing and balancing PvP video games, offering suggestions on my findings around something that I feel is somewhat unintended/broken is not aimed at hurting anyone, only helping achieve balance.

My suggestions are actually quite small and would have a minor impact. If ZoS enacted these suggestions to a tee these same "Permadodge" players would still be able to dodge roll for several minutes at least, but they would *eventually* run out of stamina which I think should happen in this case.

jrkhan

Ezareth wrote: »

I don't think drinks should be nerfed as they are (while very powerful) finally an excellent alternative to food.

Really the point is as a non-casual PvPer in medium armor, the ability to dodge roll without any concern to the cost of the ability is a given.

Look, even in medium armor as a werewolf redguard, I have < 1k stam regen without drinks. The only way I'm improving it is if a) I start using drinks instead of food b) I drop stam cost reduction for stam regen (which certainly wouldn't help) c) I drop current set bonuses to make room for +stam regen

And I'm running out of stamina extremly quickly if I'm not able to heavy attack (because my healing mitigation and dps all come from one pool)

Clearly my best bet is to switch to drinks.

If you do not have a stam regen racial (I'm assuming you aren't bosmer or redguard) and are a light armor user, yet have 50% more stam regen then I do... then I'm not sure why you'd think that it's the armor or champ points that are the problem.

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I don't think drinks should be nerfed as they are (while very powerful) finally an excellent alternative to food.

Really the point is as a non-casual PvPer in medium armor, the ability to dodge roll without any concern to the cost of the ability is a given.

Look, even in medium armor as a werewolf redguard, I have < 1k stam regen without drinks. The only way I'm improving it is if a) I start using drinks instead of food b) I drop stam cost reduction for stam regen (which certainly wouldn't help) c) I drop current set bonuses to make room for +stam regen

And I'm running out of stamina extremly quickly if I'm not able to heavy attack (because my healing mitigation and dps all come from one pool)

Clearly my best bet is to switch to drinks.

If you as a non stam regen racial (I'm assuming you aren't bosmer or redguard) light armor user, yet have 50% more stam regen then I do... then I'm not sure why you'd think that it's the armor or champ points that are the problem.

I haven't switch to 1 Heavy, 1 Medium, 5 Light yet (still 2heavy 5 light) but I have Food, werewolf and champion points, and nearly permanent tri-stat regeneration buff increasing my stam regen right now.

I just don't think drink is the "Problem" and I certainly can't dodge roll anywhere close to forever. Running triple cost reduction I can dodge roll 6 times if I pop a tri-stat at the right time which is plenty for me.

The problem is two-fold.

25% stamina regen champion passive is multiplicative.

Take all they possible sources of stamina regeneration bonuses and multiply them by up to 25%. If this were additive it would still be powerful but would not be a force multiplier and would be balanced. (Magicka should obviously operate in the same fashion).

Secondly if people want to dodge roll forever they should have to spec specifically for it. Why shouldn't there be a DodgeRoll/Break free cost reduction enchant seperate from the stamina ability? Blockers have to choose block cost reduction enchants and that is far less effective than dodge rolling in most situations.

Stamina ability builds right now are basically getting a free bonus reduction that doesn't follow along with the design of anything else in the game. If the player knows exactly how the enchant works the choice on which enchant to take is nonexistent. I use a single stamina ability and it makes more sense for me as a magicka user to take stamina cost reduction than it does magicka cost reduction or spell damage. How much sense does that make?

Soulac

Ezareth wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I don't think drinks should be nerfed as they are (while very powerful) finally an excellent alternative to food.

Really the point is as a non-casual PvPer in medium armor, the ability to dodge roll without any concern to the cost of the ability is a given.

Look, even in medium armor as a werewolf redguard, I have < 1k stam regen without drinks. The only way I'm improving it is if a) I start using drinks instead of food b) I drop stam cost reduction for stam regen (which certainly wouldn't help) c) I drop current set bonuses to make room for +stam regen

And I'm running out of stamina extremly quickly if I'm not able to heavy attack (because my healing mitigation and dps all come from one pool)

Clearly my best bet is to switch to drinks.

If you as a non stam regen racial (I'm assuming you aren't bosmer or redguard) light armor user, yet have 50% more stam regen then I do... then I'm not sure why you'd think that it's the armor or champ points that are the problem.

I haven't switch to 1 Heavy, 1 Medium, 5 Light yet (still 2heavy 5 light) but I have Food, werewolf and champion points, and nearly permanent tri-stat regeneration buff increasing my stam regen right now.

I just don't think drink is the "Problem" and I certainly can't dodge roll anywhere close to forever. Running triple cost reduction I can dodge roll 6 times if I pop a tri-stat at the right time which is plenty for me.

The problem is two-fold.

25% stamina regen champion passive is multiplicative.

Take all they possible sources of stamina regeneration bonuses and multiply them by up to 25%. If this were additive it would still be powerful but would not be a force multiplier and would be balanced. (Magicka should obviously operate in the same fashion).

Secondly if people want to dodge roll forever they should have to spec specifically for it. Why shouldn't there be a DodgeRoll/Break free cost reduction enchant seperate from the stamina ability? Blockers have to choose block cost reduction enchants and that is far less effective than dodge rolling in most situations.

Stamina ability builds right now are basically getting a free bonus reduction that doesn't follow along with the design of anything else in the game. If the player knows exactly how the enchant works the choice on which enchant to take is nonexistent. I use a single stamina ability and it makes more sense for me as a magicka user to take stamina cost reduction than it does magicka cost reduction or spell damage. How much sense does that make?

I don't think this is completely correct..
The last few days I tried to find a good formula and came up with the following, which worked for every constellation I tried.

(Base + Set + Mundus + Drink + Enchants) * (ClassPassives + ArmorPassives) * (CPpassive) * (Racialpassive + WW or Vamp + formerEmp)

514 Base
470 with sets
350 Drinks
30% NB
20% Medium armor
6.6% champion passive
15% WW
2% former Emperor

(514 + 470 + 350) * (1 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 0.066 * (1 + 0.15 + 0.02) = 2495.6

Ingame: 2496

I got a huge Stamina recovery as NB cause I need to, otherwise I wouldn't survive that long, compared to most Magicka builds.
Yes, perma dodge is annoying, but so is shieldspam.
Stamina glyphs reducing dodge costs are also fine, since basically everything a Stamina Build is using costs Stamina, while a Magicka build is free to use it for defense only.

jrkhan

Perhaps we'll need to agree to disagree. I'd just hate to have my rather underpowered build nerfed further. The champ point compounding change wouldn't be at all noticable for me (I'd lose maybe 20 stam recovery) and I guess the 2-3 dodge rolls I can manage while still actively using stam abilities should be more expensive...

You know, as much as I like no soft caps, diminishing returns is the sort of thing that helps prevent stacking from becoming game breaking. If ZoS is left with only the option to tweak bonuses like this, I don't see how there won't end up being a HUGE disparity for new/casual players to overcome. (As resource constraints are very real for the majority of players)

Rust_in_Peace

Magicka users cry about dodge roll - Stamina users cry about shield spam.

The circle of life continues.

Ezareth

Soulac wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I don't think drinks should be nerfed as they are (while very powerful) finally an excellent alternative to food.

Really the point is as a non-casual PvPer in medium armor, the ability to dodge roll without any concern to the cost of the ability is a given.

Look, even in medium armor as a werewolf redguard, I have < 1k stam regen without drinks. The only way I'm improving it is if a) I start using drinks instead of food b) I drop stam cost reduction for stam regen (which certainly wouldn't help) c) I drop current set bonuses to make room for +stam regen

And I'm running out of stamina extremly quickly if I'm not able to heavy attack (because my healing mitigation and dps all come from one pool)

Clearly my best bet is to switch to drinks.

If you as a non stam regen racial (I'm assuming you aren't bosmer or redguard) light armor user, yet have 50% more stam regen then I do... then I'm not sure why you'd think that it's the armor or champ points that are the problem.

I haven't switch to 1 Heavy, 1 Medium, 5 Light yet (still 2heavy 5 light) but I have Food, werewolf and champion points, and nearly permanent tri-stat regeneration buff increasing my stam regen right now.

I just don't think drink is the "Problem" and I certainly can't dodge roll anywhere close to forever. Running triple cost reduction I can dodge roll 6 times if I pop a tri-stat at the right time which is plenty for me.

The problem is two-fold.

25% stamina regen champion passive is multiplicative.

Take all they possible sources of stamina regeneration bonuses and multiply them by up to 25%. If this were additive it would still be powerful but would not be a force multiplier and would be balanced. (Magicka should obviously operate in the same fashion).

Secondly if people want to dodge roll forever they should have to spec specifically for it. Why shouldn't there be a DodgeRoll/Break free cost reduction enchant seperate from the stamina ability? Blockers have to choose block cost reduction enchants and that is far less effective than dodge rolling in most situations.

Stamina ability builds right now are basically getting a free bonus reduction that doesn't follow along with the design of anything else in the game. If the player knows exactly how the enchant works the choice on which enchant to take is nonexistent. I use a single stamina ability and it makes more sense for me as a magicka user to take stamina cost reduction than it does magicka cost reduction or spell damage. How much sense does that make?

I don't think this is completely correct..
The last few days I tried to find a good formula and came up with the following, which worked for every constellation I tried.

(Base + Set + Mundus + Drink + Enchants) * (ClassPassives + ArmorPassives) * (CPpassive) * (Racialpassive + WW or Vamp + formerEmp)

514 Base
470 with sets
350 Drinks
30% NB
20% Medium armor
6.6% champion passive
15% WW
2% former Emperor

(514 + 470 + 350) * (1 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 0.066 * (1 + 0.15 + 0.02) = 2495.6

Ingame: 2496

I got a huge Stamina recovery as NB cause I need to, otherwise I wouldn't survive that long, compared to most Magicka builds.
Yes, perma dodge is annoying, but so is shieldspam.
Stamina glyphs reducing dodge costs are also fine, since basically everything a Stamina Build is using costs Stamina, while a Magicka build is free to use it for defense only.

You're running almost identically the same regen as I have, assuming you're only 5 Medium/2 Heavy since you're only showing 20% medium armor regen and your champion passive is far lower than mine (I'm at 12.5% regen bonus atm). I forgot about my former emp passive, I've take that for granted for the past 9 months or whatever I think.

I originally tested on PTS with the following.
Bosmer Nightblade.

Had 514 Base (Don't forget this could be 513.5>514.49)
As Werewolf I had 591 (+15%)
1 Point in shadow passive took me to 668 (+15%)
2nd point in shadow passive took me to 745 (+15%)
Medium Armor took me to 889 (+28%)
Champion passive took me to 1110 (*1.25)

It is possible that maybe set bonus and drink aren't getting some bonuses or something but that lined up perfectly for me.

Either way the champion passive nerf wouldn't really impact you that much (yet) with only 6.6% in and it is definitely multiplicative no matter how the rest is calculated.

Stamina builds and abilities are inherently cheaper than magicka builds and abilities because they have farm more sources of cost reduction and cost reduction stacking has logarithmic results. Decoupling the cost reduction of dodge roll and break free wouldn't break the bank for them and it would be far better than adding a +50% penalty on successive dodges like they did to bolt escape.

Ezareth

jrkhan wrote: »

Perhaps we'll need to agree to disagree. I'd just hate to have my rather underpowered build nerfed further. The champ point compounding change wouldn't be at all noticable for me (I'd lose maybe 20 stam recovery) and I guess the 2-3 dodge rolls I can manage while still actively using stam abilities should be more expensive...

You know, as much as I like no soft caps, diminishing returns is the sort of thing that helps prevent stacking from becoming game breaking. If ZoS is left with only the option to tweak bonuses like this, I don't see how there won't end up being a HUGE disparity for new/casual players to overcome. (As resource constraints are very real for the majority of players)

I think with the changes it would actually hurt sorcs like me as much or more than it would hurt stam builds and the casual players wouldn't be impacted as much as those of us exploiting the math. I currently dont have any real cost reduction champion points because regen is so powerful right now. All of the sorcs who have infinite magicka are pretty much doing the same thing.

AltusVenifus

So I just tested this... Maybe I'm stupid, but...

There is a lot of skills that still kill u while dodge rolling... lava whip etc... Not sure if infinity dodge is a problem based on what I have seen. Yes certain sorc skills miss... but not all skills.

Ezareth

AltusVenifus wrote: »

So I just tested this... Maybe I'm stupid, but...

There is a lot of skills that still kill u while dodge rolling... lava whip etc... Not sure if infinity dodge is a problem based on what I have seen. Yes certain sorc skills miss... but not all skills.

Dodge roll is not a problem at all, don't misunderstand my point. I'm fine with every single one of my class damage abilities except 1 missing someone while they dodge roll.

My point is a defensive ability with that much power should have a cost, or it's cost should not be able to be reduced to a point where it is "free" to use.

AaronMB

So.....the OP's numbers calculated are with full [3200] CP points, via the PTS?

Hmmm.

Ezareth

AaronMB wrote: »

So.....the OP's numbers calculated are with full [3200] CP points, via the PTS?

Hmmm.

No I only spent 138 champion points and 100 of that was just to get my stamina regen up to about 2K since none of the PTS sets have stamina regen my base regen was too low.

There are plenty of players in the game right now with far more dodge roll reduction *and* stamina regen than the PTS character I made.

AltusVenifus

Ezareth wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

So I just tested this... Maybe I'm stupid, but...

There is a lot of skills that still kill u while dodge rolling... lava whip etc... Not sure if infinity dodge is a problem based on what I have seen. Yes certain sorc skills miss... but not all skills.

Dodge roll is not a problem at all, don't misunderstand my point. I'm fine with every single one of my class damage abilities except 1 missing someone while they dodge roll.

My point is a defensive ability with that much power should have a cost, or it's cost should not be able to be reduced to a point where it is "free" to use.

I guess what I don't understand is any "defensive ability". IMO any skill shouldn't be "free". I think there is a lot of misinformation, in this thread and others. I cannot use this ability to escape if countered... however, all SKILLS need to have a base cost even after using CP.

I think it is getting lost because it is called rise of the perma dodge roller, suggesting this is only a dodge roll problem... but, it will be a cloak problem in about 5 minutes as well.

Varicite

AltusVenifus wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

So I just tested this... Maybe I'm stupid, but...

There is a lot of skills that still kill u while dodge rolling... lava whip etc... Not sure if infinity dodge is a problem based on what I have seen. Yes certain sorc skills miss... but not all skills.

Dodge roll is not a problem at all, don't misunderstand my point. I'm fine with every single one of my class damage abilities except 1 missing someone while they dodge roll.

My point is a defensive ability with that much power should have a cost, or it's cost should not be able to be reduced to a point where it is "free" to use.

I guess what I don't understand is any "defensive ability". IMO any skill shouldn't be "free". I think there is a lot of misinformation, in this thread and others. I cannot use this ability to escape if countered... however, all SKILLS need to have a base cost even after using CP.

I think it is getting lost because it is called rise of the perma dodge roller, suggesting this is only a dodge roll problem... but, it will be a cloak problem in about 5 minutes as well.

It already is a shield problem, but those are "fine" according to the OP.

What a load.

/shrug

Ezareth

Varicite wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

So I just tested this... Maybe I'm stupid, but...

There is a lot of skills that still kill u while dodge rolling... lava whip etc... Not sure if infinity dodge is a problem based on what I have seen. Yes certain sorc skills miss... but not all skills.

Dodge roll is not a problem at all, don't misunderstand my point. I'm fine with every single one of my class damage abilities except 1 missing someone while they dodge roll.

My point is a defensive ability with that much power should have a cost, or it's cost should not be able to be reduced to a point where it is "free" to use.

I guess what I don't understand is any "defensive ability". IMO any skill shouldn't be "free". I think there is a lot of misinformation, in this thread and others. I cannot use this ability to escape if countered... however, all SKILLS need to have a base cost even after using CP.

I think it is getting lost because it is called rise of the perma dodge roller, suggesting this is only a dodge roll problem... but, it will be a cloak problem in about 5 minutes as well.

It already is a shield problem, but those are "fine" according to the OP.

What a load.

/shrug

Yes continue to read what you want and believe what you want despite all evidence to the contrary.

Varicite

Ezareth wrote: »

Yes continue to read what you want and believe what you want despite all evidence to the contrary.

See, the thing is that I actually agree that there are multiple factors that are out of whack. I've never said otherwise. Just because I talk about a specific topic in a thread focused on that doesn't mean that I don't understand that there are several problems contributing to the current situation.

I've said plenty of times that WB needs to be toned down (make it interruptable again if it keeps cast time, which I do feel is in a pretty good place for a melee cast time skill), as someone who has played a dual 2h NB (among a LOT of other builds, altoholic etc) since just after launch.

Shields still have issues that need to be looked at concerning DoTs, procs, etc. 1.6 was a step in the right direction, but rather half-hearted. Regen is trivializing resource management, racials are completely unbalanced now, CP is still kind of a x-factor looming to skew everything, sets and skills are bugged in new and exciting ways, etc. It all still needs to be tweaked, to be completely honest.

You weren't here complaining about dodge rolling when there was actually a cost to them. I wasn't here whining about shields when they could be depleted eventually. 1.5 was pretty good balance-wise and it would be nice if we could get close to that again, imo.

Still, I'm disappointed that you resorted to taking a childish jab at dodge rolling by using the exact same argument about shields that you so thoroughly debated. That's more what I was referring to. I'm not really sure exactly what you think I'm "reading".

Usually my views are pretty clearly stated, though a bit long-winded.

Soulac

Ezareth wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I don't think drinks should be nerfed as they are (while very powerful) finally an excellent alternative to food.

Really the point is as a non-casual PvPer in medium armor, the ability to dodge roll without any concern to the cost of the ability is a given.

Look, even in medium armor as a werewolf redguard, I have < 1k stam regen without drinks. The only way I'm improving it is if a) I start using drinks instead of food b) I drop stam cost reduction for stam regen (which certainly wouldn't help) c) I drop current set bonuses to make room for +stam regen

And I'm running out of stamina extremly quickly if I'm not able to heavy attack (because my healing mitigation and dps all come from one pool)

Clearly my best bet is to switch to drinks.

If you as a non stam regen racial (I'm assuming you aren't bosmer or redguard) light armor user, yet have 50% more stam regen then I do... then I'm not sure why you'd think that it's the armor or champ points that are the problem.

I haven't switch to 1 Heavy, 1 Medium, 5 Light yet (still 2heavy 5 light) but I have Food, werewolf and champion points, and nearly permanent tri-stat regeneration buff increasing my stam regen right now.

I just don't think drink is the "Problem" and I certainly can't dodge roll anywhere close to forever. Running triple cost reduction I can dodge roll 6 times if I pop a tri-stat at the right time which is plenty for me.

The problem is two-fold.

25% stamina regen champion passive is multiplicative.

Take all they possible sources of stamina regeneration bonuses and multiply them by up to 25%. If this were additive it would still be powerful but would not be a force multiplier and would be balanced. (Magicka should obviously operate in the same fashion).

Secondly if people want to dodge roll forever they should have to spec specifically for it. Why shouldn't there be a DodgeRoll/Break free cost reduction enchant seperate from the stamina ability? Blockers have to choose block cost reduction enchants and that is far less effective than dodge rolling in most situations.

Stamina ability builds right now are basically getting a free bonus reduction that doesn't follow along with the design of anything else in the game. If the player knows exactly how the enchant works the choice on which enchant to take is nonexistent. I use a single stamina ability and it makes more sense for me as a magicka user to take stamina cost reduction than it does magicka cost reduction or spell damage. How much sense does that make?

I don't think this is completely correct..
The last few days I tried to find a good formula and came up with the following, which worked for every constellation I tried.

(Base + Set + Mundus + Drink + Enchants) * (ClassPassives + ArmorPassives) * (CPpassive) * (Racialpassive + WW or Vamp + formerEmp)

514 Base
470 with sets
350 Drinks
30% NB
20% Medium armor
6.6% champion passive
15% WW
2% former Emperor

(514 + 470 + 350) * (1 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 0.066 * (1 + 0.15 + 0.02) = 2495.6

Ingame: 2496

I got a huge Stamina recovery as NB cause I need to, otherwise I wouldn't survive that long, compared to most Magicka builds.
Yes, perma dodge is annoying, but so is shieldspam.
Stamina glyphs reducing dodge costs are also fine, since basically everything a Stamina Build is using costs Stamina, while a Magicka build is free to use it for defense only.

You're running almost identically the same regen as I have, assuming you're only 5 Medium/2 Heavy since you're only showing 20% medium armor regen and your champion passive is far lower than mine (I'm at 12.5% regen bonus atm). I forgot about my former emp passive, I've take that for granted for the past 9 months or whatever I think.

I originally tested on PTS with the following.
Bosmer Nightblade.

Had 514 Base (Don't forget this could be 513.5>514.49)
As Werewolf I had 591 (+15%)
1 Point in shadow passive took me to 668 (+15%)
2nd point in shadow passive took me to 745 (+15%)
Medium Armor took me to 889 (+28%)
Champion passive took me to 1110 (*1.25)

It is possible that maybe set bonus and drink aren't getting some bonuses or something but that lined up perfectly for me.

Either way the champion passive nerf wouldn't really impact you that much (yet) with only 6.6% in and it is definitely multiplicative no matter how the rest is calculated.

Stamina builds and abilities are inherently cheaper than magicka builds and abilities because they have farm more sources of cost reduction and cost reduction stacking has logarithmic results. Decoupling the cost reduction of dodge roll and break free wouldn't break the bank for them and it would be far better than adding a +50% penalty on successive dodges like they did to bolt escape.

The Champion-System makes a difference of 170 Stamina recovery (If I remember right) in my case.
Also the 2496 is unbuffed, which is never he case on cyrodiil, most likely it's up to 3k, as non Bosmer.
I dodge cancel, bash cancel etc. quite a lot and I couldn't play without this Regen anymore I think.
Anyway even I run out of stamina sometimes.
It's not like a huge amount of dodges makes unkillable or something..

Ezareth

Varicite wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Yes continue to read what you want and believe what you want despite all evidence to the contrary.

See, the thing is that I actually agree that there are multiple factors that are out of whack. I've never said otherwise. Just because I talk about a specific topic in a thread focused on that doesn't mean that I don't understand that there are several problems contributing to the current situation.

I've said plenty of times that WB needs to be toned down (make it interruptable again if it keeps cast time, which I do feel is in a pretty good place for a melee cast time skill), as someone who has played a dual 2h NB (among a LOT of other builds, altoholic etc) since just after launch.

Shields still have issues that need to be looked at concerning DoTs, procs, etc. 1.6 was a step in the right direction, but rather half-hearted. Regen is trivializing resource management, racials are completely unbalanced now, CP is still kind of a x-factor looming to skew everything, sets and skills are bugged in new and exciting ways, etc. It all still needs to be tweaked, to be completely honest.

You weren't here complaining about dodge rolling when there was actually a cost to them. I wasn't here whining about shields when they could be depleted eventually. 1.5 was pretty good balance-wise and it would be nice if we could get close to that again, imo.

Still, I'm disappointed that you resorted to taking a childish jab at dodge rolling by using the exact same argument about shields that you so thoroughly debated. That's more what I was referring to. I'm not really sure exactly what you think I'm "reading".

Usually my views are pretty clearly stated, though a bit long-winded.

Well I never took a childish jab at dodge rolling, only laid out a case for stamina enchants being strong and *both* regen passives being too strong. If Stamina reduction enchants were split into stamina reduction and dodge/roll break free enchants players could choose either one to suit their own style of play. I don't need magicka cost reduction enchants as a Sorc with the right build and a Stamina build doesn't either.

Really the changes I'm suggesting are relatively minor. The impact of the power of the regen passive isn't even close to being fully felt yet (few people have even half the max bonus yet) so there are still other contributing factors.

The regen changes would just stop the problem from getting even more widespread and curtail the existing problem a bit. For me it would reduce my magicka regen by around 200 from 2600 to 2400. Not game breaking but it can be felt.

I was just fighting a sorc friend on PTS with the build in my video using a bow and 2 hander and she couldn't hit me with anything other than curse all while I continued attacking her unless I screwed up my rolls. I'm far from a good perma roller. Even so I could time my rolls to dodge 2 spells in a row and didn't need to permanently roll stay invulnerable. There issue was in a several minute fight I didn't drop below 90% stamina and this wasn't even a really build. 2K stamina regen and all the cost reduction on stam abilities, stam reduction enchants coupled with dodge/break free just made it so that I had no concerns for stamina.

On my sorc it is the same (with the exception of bolt escape since it costs so much to spam). I can spam virtually any spell infinitely.

I think once we take care of this issue, a lot of the real class and ability balance issues will be made clearer.

Oughash

(double post)

Oughash

Ezareth wrote: »

On my sorc it is the same (with the exception of bolt escape since it costs so much to spam). I can spam virtually any spell infinitely.

This was the realization that I needed to make in order to "fix" my DK. In full light armor (or even 5L/2H) I had more mana sustain than is needed -- with only ~90 CPs (at the time) -- to fight most engagements since time-to-kill is so fast. So I switched to 5H/2L for the physical protection and block cost reduction. Melee magicka still viable. I'm quite worried what things are gonna be like when I get 225 or 360 CPs since CPs scale your power linearly.

ItsRejectz

Soulac wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I don't think drinks should be nerfed as they are (while very powerful) finally an excellent alternative to food.

Really the point is as a non-casual PvPer in medium armor, the ability to dodge roll without any concern to the cost of the ability is a given.

Look, even in medium armor as a werewolf redguard, I have < 1k stam regen without drinks. The only way I'm improving it is if a) I start using drinks instead of food b) I drop stam cost reduction for stam regen (which certainly wouldn't help) c) I drop current set bonuses to make room for +stam regen

And I'm running out of stamina extremly quickly if I'm not able to heavy attack (because my healing mitigation and dps all come from one pool)

Clearly my best bet is to switch to drinks.

If you as a non stam regen racial (I'm assuming you aren't bosmer or redguard) light armor user, yet have 50% more stam regen then I do... then I'm not sure why you'd think that it's the armor or champ points that are the problem.

I haven't switch to 1 Heavy, 1 Medium, 5 Light yet (still 2heavy 5 light) but I have Food, werewolf and champion points, and nearly permanent tri-stat regeneration buff increasing my stam regen right now.

I just don't think drink is the "Problem" and I certainly can't dodge roll anywhere close to forever. Running triple cost reduction I can dodge roll 6 times if I pop a tri-stat at the right time which is plenty for me.

The problem is two-fold.

25% stamina regen champion passive is multiplicative.

Take all they possible sources of stamina regeneration bonuses and multiply them by up to 25%. If this were additive it would still be powerful but would not be a force multiplier and would be balanced. (Magicka should obviously operate in the same fashion).

Secondly if people want to dodge roll forever they should have to spec specifically for it. Why shouldn't there be a DodgeRoll/Break free cost reduction enchant seperate from the stamina ability? Blockers have to choose block cost reduction enchants and that is far less effective than dodge rolling in most situations.

Stamina ability builds right now are basically getting a free bonus reduction that doesn't follow along with the design of anything else in the game. If the player knows exactly how the enchant works the choice on which enchant to take is nonexistent. I use a single stamina ability and it makes more sense for me as a magicka user to take stamina cost reduction than it does magicka cost reduction or spell damage. How much sense does that make?

I don't think this is completely correct..
The last few days I tried to find a good formula and came up with the following, which worked for every constellation I tried.

(Base + Set + Mundus + Drink + Enchants) * (ClassPassives + ArmorPassives) * (CPpassive) * (Racialpassive + WW or Vamp + formerEmp)

514 Base
470 with sets
350 Drinks
30% NB
20% Medium armor
6.6% champion passive
15% WW
2% former Emperor

(514 + 470 + 350) * (1 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 0.066 * (1 + 0.15 + 0.02) = 2495.6

Ingame: 2496

I got a huge Stamina recovery as NB cause I need to, otherwise I wouldn't survive that long, compared to most Magicka builds.
Yes, perma dodge is annoying, but so is shieldspam.
Stamina glyphs reducing dodge costs are also fine, since basically everything a Stamina Build is using costs Stamina, while a Magicka build is free to use it for defense only.

Are you not a bosmer?
My NB is built for Stamina regen and my regen sits at around 3250 regen I think. That's without any points in champion points regen, as they are all in the tumbler passive.

Totally agree on stam NB's needing very high regen, especially compared to magika users magika regen. Purely because of NB's needing to dodge more than other classes, as NB's are the only class with no form of shield.

Thing is though what people seem to be missing is, this whole problem is nothing to do with stam regen/dodge cost. It's due to the removal of soft caps.
For instance, get a NB who fully specs into magika/magika regen/cost reduction. They can cast shadow cloak and blur constantly and become almost impossible to hit, whilst moving at high speed.
Sorcs specing into the same can spam Ward almost indefinitely or use bolt around 20 times before they run out.

I don't really use my DK and Temp alts, so I can't give examples of them. But it's obvious that any class that specs fully into one attribute is going to be able to spam all kinds of abilities.
If ZOS was to actually do something, that would address all these, it shouldn't be nerf postions or increase costs. It should be re introduce soft caps, but maybe make them a bit higher.

Soulac

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I don't think drinks should be nerfed as they are (while very powerful) finally an excellent alternative to food.

Really the point is as a non-casual PvPer in medium armor, the ability to dodge roll without any concern to the cost of the ability is a given.

Look, even in medium armor as a werewolf redguard, I have < 1k stam regen without drinks. The only way I'm improving it is if a) I start using drinks instead of food b) I drop stam cost reduction for stam regen (which certainly wouldn't help) c) I drop current set bonuses to make room for +stam regen

And I'm running out of stamina extremly quickly if I'm not able to heavy attack (because my healing mitigation and dps all come from one pool)

Clearly my best bet is to switch to drinks.

If you as a non stam regen racial (I'm assuming you aren't bosmer or redguard) light armor user, yet have 50% more stam regen then I do... then I'm not sure why you'd think that it's the armor or champ points that are the problem.

I haven't switch to 1 Heavy, 1 Medium, 5 Light yet (still 2heavy 5 light) but I have Food, werewolf and champion points, and nearly permanent tri-stat regeneration buff increasing my stam regen right now.

I just don't think drink is the "Problem" and I certainly can't dodge roll anywhere close to forever. Running triple cost reduction I can dodge roll 6 times if I pop a tri-stat at the right time which is plenty for me.

The problem is two-fold.

25% stamina regen champion passive is multiplicative.

Take all they possible sources of stamina regeneration bonuses and multiply them by up to 25%. If this were additive it would still be powerful but would not be a force multiplier and would be balanced. (Magicka should obviously operate in the same fashion).

Secondly if people want to dodge roll forever they should have to spec specifically for it. Why shouldn't there be a DodgeRoll/Break free cost reduction enchant seperate from the stamina ability? Blockers have to choose block cost reduction enchants and that is far less effective than dodge rolling in most situations.

Stamina ability builds right now are basically getting a free bonus reduction that doesn't follow along with the design of anything else in the game. If the player knows exactly how the enchant works the choice on which enchant to take is nonexistent. I use a single stamina ability and it makes more sense for me as a magicka user to take stamina cost reduction than it does magicka cost reduction or spell damage. How much sense does that make?

I don't think this is completely correct..
The last few days I tried to find a good formula and came up with the following, which worked for every constellation I tried.

(Base + Set + Mundus + Drink + Enchants) * (ClassPassives + ArmorPassives) * (CPpassive) * (Racialpassive + WW or Vamp + formerEmp)

514 Base
470 with sets
350 Drinks
30% NB
20% Medium armor
6.6% champion passive
15% WW
2% former Emperor

(514 + 470 + 350) * (1 + 0.3 + 0.2) * 0.066 * (1 + 0.15 + 0.02) = 2495.6

Ingame: 2496

I got a huge Stamina recovery as NB cause I need to, otherwise I wouldn't survive that long, compared to most Magicka builds.
Yes, perma dodge is annoying, but so is shieldspam.
Stamina glyphs reducing dodge costs are also fine, since basically everything a Stamina Build is using costs Stamina, while a Magicka build is free to use it for defense only.

Are you not a bosmer?
My NB is built for Stamina regen and my regen sits at around 3250 regen I think. That's without any points in champion points regen, as they are all in the tumbler passive.

Totally agree on stam NB's needing very high regen, especially compared to magika users magika regen. Purely because of NB's needing to dodge more than other classes, as NB's are the only class with no form of shield.

Thing is though what people seem to be missing is, this whole problem is nothing to do with stam regen/dodge cost. It's due to the removal of soft caps.
For instance, get a NB who fully specs into magika/magika regen/cost reduction. They can cast shadow cloak and blur constantly and become almost impossible to hit, whilst moving at high speed.
Sorcs specing into the same can spam Ward almost indefinitely or use bolt around 20 times before they run out.

I don't really use my DK and Temp alts, so I can't give examples of them. But it's obvious that any class of specs fully into one attribute is going to be able to spam all kinds of abilities.
If ZOS was to actually do something, that would address all these, it shouldn't be nerf postions or increase costs. It should be 're introduce soft caps, but maybe make them a bit higher.

No I´m a cat, running around with a total of 3.2k Stamina Reg, but 28 points in stamina reg passive.

Deviante

I stopped caring enough about this topic to keep reading but what is the harm in someone that can perma dodge roll other than scroll carrying.

The sacrifice to damage output to make this viable will mean they pose no threat to anyone so just let them roll round in circles and ignore them.

Zsymon

Sorcerer casters can use streak and ward, dragonknight casters can use scales, nightblade casters can use shadow cloak, templars have nothing but they are in an overall appalling state as a class. But stamina builds don't have shields and they don't have a single spammable self heal.. dodge is all they have. Dodge cost was already increased with 1.6.. if you downgrade dodge then stamina builds have no way to survive the onslaught of burst damage.

Casters can use streak and ward to stay alive indefinitely, they spam scales to become immortal even in the face of 20 enemies, they use consecutive cloaks to disappear from sight completely and as long as they want. Why shouldn't stamina builds be able to stay alive indefinitely by dodging? It's not like they are doing any damage while dodging.

I see no imbalance with dodging what so ever. It is no different than what caster builds do to stay alive indefinitely on the defensive.

cozmon3c_ESO

Deviante wrote: »

I stopped caring enough about this topic to keep reading but what is the harm in someone that can perma dodge roll other than scroll carrying.

The sacrifice to damage output to make this viable will mean they pose no threat to anyone so just let them roll round in circles and ignore them.

except thats not true, they can do abilities in between the dodge rolls while still under the dodge roll effect and still take now damage while being able to dish out damage, dodge roll is not on the ability cooldown, so you can dodge then weave attacks in between and take 10% damage (aka the only damage abilities that each class can use to hit dodge roll currently). this is obviously a balance issue now and it will get worse in the near future when people realize they can build this way and own everybody taking minimal damage.

Zsymon

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Deviante wrote: »

I stopped caring enough about this topic to keep reading but what is the harm in someone that can perma dodge roll other than scroll carrying.

The sacrifice to damage output to make this viable will mean they pose no threat to anyone so just let them roll round in circles and ignore them.

except thats not true, they can do abilities in between the dodge rolls while still under the dodge roll effect and still take now damage while being able to dish out damage, dodge roll is not on the ability cooldown, so you can dodge then weave attacks in between and take 10% damage (aka the only damage abilities that each class can use to hit dodge roll currently). this is obviously a balance issue now and it will get worse in the near future when people realize they can build this way and own everybody taking minimal damage.

Someone dodge rolling the whole time will never kill anyone. If they're weaving attacks in between then they are taking at least 50% of the damage you throw at them, while only doing some 20% of their dps potential. That means they will die. Dodge rolling constantly and "weaving in attacks" is in no way an actual thing people use to win. They may dodge roll regularly, but not to such extent that they're avoiding 90% of the damage you throw at them. A 2H user wins because of wrecking blow, not because of dodge roll.