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Rise of The Perma-Dodger
Ezareth
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I know by bringing this up I'm calling for all the Stamina users to get out their pitchforks and torches but I feel this issue is better addressed sooner rather than later before Perma-dodgers becomes the current meta for everyone (including Sorcs!). There are already no few number of skilled players taking advantage of this and more and more people are catching on.
Yes I'm aware that there are counters to the dodge roll but we all know that 90%+ off the abilities used in Cyrodiil are completely evaded by dodge rolling and a player that is exposed in combat can usually extract himself from danger by a large number of attackers with a number of successive dodge rolls. The tradeoff to this has always been the assumption that the player would run out of stamina eventually and that you'd be able to kill the target.
In 2.0 Dodge roll costs 3591 Stamina which is appropriately expensive.
The issue is the fact that currently there exists a way to reduce the cost of this action to less than half of its current cost without *any* sacrifice to damage or gearing.
With the massive increase in power given to Stamina builds in 2.0 Medium armor is the new offensive requirement for a Stamina user. Wearing a full set of Medium armor gives you a 28% reduction to the costs of Dodge rolls which by itself reduces the cost of a dodge roll to 2709.
Next we're going to look at Stamina Cost reduction enchants on rings and next. Having all three VR14 Legendary Stamina cost reduction enchants reduces the cost of Stamina abilities, Dodge roll, and break free by 637. (Yes the tooltip says 200 each but each enchant gives you 212.something reduction). Having Medium Armor and Stamina cost reduction enchants will reduce the cost of your dodge roll to 2229. Pretty much every good stamina user in PvP will have at very least this cost as there is literally zero reason to use an enchant other than stamina cost reduction due its excessive strength compared to other choices.
Finally let's look at the Tumbler Champion Ability which at max rank will give you an 18% reduction to the cost of break free and dodge rolling. With max Tumbler your cost of dodge roll is reduced to 1741, a 52.5% overall reduction to the base cost of dodge rolling.
By itself this would seem reasonable but when you consider the ridiculous amounts of stamina regeneration a player can get coupled with the extreme cost reduction that is available to all stamina based weapon abilities a stamina user can build for pure damage and sustainability and by doing so give him the ability to "Permanently" dodge roll whenever he is threatened. He can in essence do this even after he has completely exhausted his stamina supply by regeneration alone!
Here are the current bonuses a player can get depending on his race/class to stamina regeneration (I'm sure I'm missing a few):
Bosmer 21%
Redguard 9%
NB Shadow passive 30%
Full Medium Armor 28%
Werewolf 15%
Vampire 10%
Green Dragon Blood 20%
Any Stamina Potion 20%
Focused attacks 10%
Restoring Aura 10/20%
Absorption Field 20%
Mooncalf Champion Ability adds up to 25% *multiplicative* with everything else.
Now these by themselves are only powerful if you're able to boost your *base* stamina recovery to high levels.
The base Stamina recovery of a V14 character is 514. With Blue V10 Stamina/Magicka drink add 350. With 3 V14 Stamina Recovery set bonuses at 126 each your total base Stamina Recovery becomes 1242. That base becomes becomes 3322 Stamina recovery by itself to a Bosmer Nightblade Werewolf wearing Medium armor with under the effects of a tristat pot with maxed out Mooncalf. Now 3000+ Stamina Recovery is going to be the exception not the rule but for any stamina build getting over 2000 stamina recovery is relatively easy especially if you're a min/maxer like myself. I'm wearing light armor and not even trying and I have stamina recovery of over 1200 while I'm under the effects of a tripot.
To demonstrate the absurdity of this setup I created the following character on the PTS.
He is a Bosmer Nightblade werewolf with V10 Tri-drink (not the better V10 Blue drink). I'm wearing full medium armor but have absolutely zero set bonuses to increase my base stamina recovery so I dumped in 100 points to Mooncalf to get my Stamina regen up to just under 2000. I then put 38 points into the tumbler passive which is doable by many players at this point and reduces the cost of dodge roll by only 9.8%.
I'll let the results speak for themselves:
(Note: I've never used a bow before this and my perma dodge-rolling technique is not nearly as smooth as it could be)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1AKU5kM5Dk
There are two proposals I have to fix this and other regeneration issues (including magicka regeneration which is another problem altogether).
First, the Stamina Cost reduction enchant should only apply to Stamina *abilities* not break free and dodge roll. Block was separated already and in set bonuses, passives, champion points and everything else in the game Stamina cost reduction and Dodge roll cost reduction are separate. I know people are going to say that break free and dodge roll shares the same pool as their damage abilities but to offset that stamina weapon abilities have far more cost reduction options available to them which make them far cheaper than your average magicka damage abilities. Additionally players have their magicka pool to dedicate to healing abilities, damage shields and other defensive abilities that follow similar effectiveness to a magicka user using dodge roll and break free.
Second, *all* Champion regeneration passives need to be made additive like other resources of regeneration instead of being multiplicative. Either that or they need to have their maximum capped at 18% or 15.8% like the cost reduction abilities.
I think if we do these things, perma dodge rolling will be far more difficult to achieve and the cost for the ability will be more meaningful while not changing anything for heavy and light armor users who aren't running pure stamina builds.
The regeneration fix will help stem (but not completely eliminate) the excessive resources people are running around with right now.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!
Yes I'm aware that there are counters to the dodge roll but we all know that 90%+ off the abilities used in Cyrodiil are completely evaded by dodge rolling and a player that is exposed in combat can usually extract himself from danger by a large number of attackers with a number of successive dodge rolls. The tradeoff to this has always been the assumption that the player would run out of stamina eventually and that you'd be able to kill the target.
In 2.0 Dodge roll costs 3591 Stamina which is appropriately expensive.
The issue is the fact that currently there exists a way to reduce the cost of this action to less than half of its current cost without *any* sacrifice to damage or gearing.
With the massive increase in power given to Stamina builds in 2.0 Medium armor is the new offensive requirement for a Stamina user. Wearing a full set of Medium armor gives you a 28% reduction to the costs of Dodge rolls which by itself reduces the cost of a dodge roll to 2709.
Next we're going to look at Stamina Cost reduction enchants on rings and next. Having all three VR14 Legendary Stamina cost reduction enchants reduces the cost of Stamina abilities, Dodge roll, and break free by 637. (Yes the tooltip says 200 each but each enchant gives you 212.something reduction). Having Medium Armor and Stamina cost reduction enchants will reduce the cost of your dodge roll to 2229. Pretty much every good stamina user in PvP will have at very least this cost as there is literally zero reason to use an enchant other than stamina cost reduction due its excessive strength compared to other choices.
Finally let's look at the Tumbler Champion Ability which at max rank will give you an 18% reduction to the cost of break free and dodge rolling. With max Tumbler your cost of dodge roll is reduced to 1741, a 52.5% overall reduction to the base cost of dodge rolling.
By itself this would seem reasonable but when you consider the ridiculous amounts of stamina regeneration a player can get coupled with the extreme cost reduction that is available to all stamina based weapon abilities a stamina user can build for pure damage and sustainability and by doing so give him the ability to "Permanently" dodge roll whenever he is threatened. He can in essence do this even after he has completely exhausted his stamina supply by regeneration alone!
Here are the current bonuses a player can get depending on his race/class to stamina regeneration (I'm sure I'm missing a few):
Bosmer 21%
Redguard 9%
NB Shadow passive 30%
Full Medium Armor 28%
Werewolf 15%
Vampire 10%
Green Dragon Blood 20%
Any Stamina Potion 20%
Focused attacks 10%
Restoring Aura 10/20%
Absorption Field 20%
Mooncalf Champion Ability adds up to 25% *multiplicative* with everything else.
Now these by themselves are only powerful if you're able to boost your *base* stamina recovery to high levels.
The base Stamina recovery of a V14 character is 514. With Blue V10 Stamina/Magicka drink add 350. With 3 V14 Stamina Recovery set bonuses at 126 each your total base Stamina Recovery becomes 1242. That base becomes becomes 3322 Stamina recovery by itself to a Bosmer Nightblade Werewolf wearing Medium armor with under the effects of a tristat pot with maxed out Mooncalf. Now 3000+ Stamina Recovery is going to be the exception not the rule but for any stamina build getting over 2000 stamina recovery is relatively easy especially if you're a min/maxer like myself. I'm wearing light armor and not even trying and I have stamina recovery of over 1200 while I'm under the effects of a tripot.
To demonstrate the absurdity of this setup I created the following character on the PTS.
He is a Bosmer Nightblade werewolf with V10 Tri-drink (not the better V10 Blue drink). I'm wearing full medium armor but have absolutely zero set bonuses to increase my base stamina recovery so I dumped in 100 points to Mooncalf to get my Stamina regen up to just under 2000. I then put 38 points into the tumbler passive which is doable by many players at this point and reduces the cost of dodge roll by only 9.8%.
I'll let the results speak for themselves:
(Note: I've never used a bow before this and my perma dodge-rolling technique is not nearly as smooth as it could be)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1AKU5kM5DkThere are two proposals I have to fix this and other regeneration issues (including magicka regeneration which is another problem altogether).
First, the Stamina Cost reduction enchant should only apply to Stamina *abilities* not break free and dodge roll. Block was separated already and in set bonuses, passives, champion points and everything else in the game Stamina cost reduction and Dodge roll cost reduction are separate. I know people are going to say that break free and dodge roll shares the same pool as their damage abilities but to offset that stamina weapon abilities have far more cost reduction options available to them which make them far cheaper than your average magicka damage abilities. Additionally players have their magicka pool to dedicate to healing abilities, damage shields and other defensive abilities that follow similar effectiveness to a magicka user using dodge roll and break free.
Second, *all* Champion regeneration passives need to be made additive like other resources of regeneration instead of being multiplicative. Either that or they need to have their maximum capped at 18% or 15.8% like the cost reduction abilities.
I think if we do these things, perma dodge rolling will be far more difficult to achieve and the cost for the ability will be more meaningful while not changing anything for heavy and light armor users who aren't running pure stamina builds.
The regeneration fix will help stem (but not completely eliminate) the excessive resources people are running around with right now.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube
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cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭21% stam regen for a racial passive, i mean lol zos lol.
this really is an issue that is coming up, 90% of damage misses these rolly pollys from all classes and then they can roll towards you and 2-3 shot your ass while still rolling and avoiding damage. needs a fix for sure.Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos6 -
Psilent✭✭✭✭✭Every DC Emperor on Chillrend, as of late, is a perma dodge roll monkey. One rolled from the scroll temple to Farragut...
Normal players eventually run out of stamina. So they can only use it to get out of sticky situations for a short distance. I do this to reach the inner of keeps or get out of a ultimate dump.
How is this any different than all the sorcs casting perma BE, that I keep running into on a daily basis?14 -
Beldorr✭✭✭If stamina dodge rolling is to strong for survivability, I'd throw ball lightning under the bus with it. Moves the player away from melee, any projectiles are absorbed. With 7/7 light armor regen bonuses, 600 magicka cost enchants, Arcanist 25% Magicka Regneration and Magician giving a 15.8% cost reduction to magicka spells is is already very spamable. Throw 30k magicka under it with warlock set.7 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
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Normal players eventually run out of stamina.
I'm pretty sure Ezareth just proved that normal players will not run out of stamina if they build their characters right.
How is this any different than all the sorcs casting perma BE, that I keep running into on a daily basis?
Because of the 50% cost increase mechanic, BE can not be used indefinitely like dodge roll. Also dodge roll negates a lot more damage than BE. Also, you can use skills while dodge rolling. Also, dodge roll isn't a class skill so not sure why they are being compared.If stamina dodge rolling is to strong for survivability, I'd throw ball lightning under the bus with it. Moves the player away from melee, any projectiles are absorbed. With 7/7 light armor regen bonuses, 600 magicka cost enchants, Arcanist 25% Magicka Regneration and Magician giving a 15.8% cost reduction to magicka spells is is already very spamable. Throw 30k magicka under it with warlock set.
Ball of Lightning only absorbs spell projectiles.
You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points5 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭If stamina dodge rolling is to strong for survivability, I'd throw ball lightning under the bus with it. Moves the player away from melee, any projectiles are absorbed. With 7/7 light armor regen bonuses, 600 magicka cost enchants, Arcanist 25% Magicka Regneration and Magician giving a 15.8% cost reduction to magicka spells is is already very spamable. Throw 30k magicka under it with warlock set.
BOL does not stop all projectiles dude, only spell projectiles. this is probably why you are having trouble killing a sorc because you don understand what is happening, all you see is a flashy sorc who you think should be free ap.Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos2 -
Beldorr✭✭✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »If stamina dodge rolling is to strong for survivability, I'd throw ball lightning under the bus with it. Moves the player away from melee, any projectiles are absorbed. With 7/7 light armor regen bonuses, 600 magicka cost enchants, Arcanist 25% Magicka Regneration and Magician giving a 15.8% cost reduction to magicka spells is is already very spamable. Throw 30k magicka under it with warlock set.
BOL does not stop all projectiles dude, only spell projectiles. this is probably why you are having trouble killing a sorc because you don understand what is happening, all you see is a flashy sorc who you think should be free ap.
I meant to put any spell projectiles, my mistake. I'm shedding light on how bolt lightning is evading melee and spell projectiles is very similar to dodge roll in the number abilities that are mitigated by it. Channeled abilities for everyone.0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This isn't a thread about Bolt Escape. The two abilities are intrinsically different for various reasons stated across every single Sorc QQ post back to the begining of the game. I'm built specifically for bolt escape with maximum cost reduction, cost reduction enchants and magicka regeneration and I can go from 100% magicka to 0% even using Tri-stat pots in less than 40 seconds of non-stop bolt escape. I also can't regenerate even close to the amount of magicka needed to sustain perma bolt escape.
With the maximum cost-reduction possible in the game, 3 magicka cost reduction enchants, maximum magicka cost reduction champion The cost of the increased cost Bolt escape is still 2353 magicka which coincidentally is still more than the cost the reduced cost of a Dodge roll even without cost reduction enchants and is far more difficult to achieve while costing us far more in tradeoffs (Full light armor, 2 Cost reduction 5-peice set bonuses etc.).
As I said, this isn't about Bolt Escape versus Dodge roll, it is about preventing the abuse of an incredibly powerful ability that can be used virtually for free by a large percentage of players.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube3 -
Lord_Bidr✭✭✭How did you get so many champion points? I thought the devs said no one got more than 'a couple hundred' using the grind that was nerfed...~ The brightest lights often cast the darkest shadows. ~4 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So bolt plus wards are fine but remove dodge. Things that make you go hummm.
No one is saying to remove or even nerf dodge, only to reduce stamina AND Magicka regeneration champion abilities and to uncouple dodge roll cost reduction enchants from stamina cost enchants.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭sc_prabhu1986rwb17_ESO wrote: »How did you get so many champion points? I thought the devs said no one got more than 'a couple hundred' using the grind that was nerfed...
You get 3200 on PTS.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points2 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭sc_prabhu1986rwb17_ESO wrote: »How did you get so many champion points? I thought the devs said no one got more than 'a couple hundred' using the grind that was nerfed...
its pts....... everyone was given 3600 @sc_prabhu1986rwb17_ESO1 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Ezareth I dunno, I get hit while I'm dodge rolling, not much, but I get hit. Just rolled a Stamina build so I can't do it forever, but I'm working on it...
They shouldn't be able to dodge roll forever, no, that's like Sorcerers being able to Bolt-Escape forever. But they should be able to do it A LOT because it uses their offensive pool, and the reduction needs to be insanely high for it to work. I hardly ever use dodge roll inside combat, I just let Evasion work it's wonders... I use dodge roll to get away or charge my Ultimate.Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)
#FreeZazeer
#FreeGooey
#FreeAsgari
#FreeAoE
#FreeSubtomik
#FreeMBF
Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.3 -
Ashanne✭✭✭✭Well op is right...but coming from a sorc with ~3k magika regeneration (don't make me take screen shots from your videos ) and 2k spell damage its just hilarious (yea yea...we know you made sacrifices to get there...don't care)
and even more funny is that all sorcs are coming here to defend the QQ just as NBs are going over to the " rise of sorc" post.
LOL...
weren't sorcs recommending that a nb to avoid deaths from a sorc needs to roll dodge? I guess NBs finally L2P
At least this game has evolved from 1 fotY(dk bathrobe spammers/snipe spammers ) to 2 fotms (sorcs and 2h ers perma dodgers).
Funny how the OP builds right now complain on the forums (yea I know you guys are not op..its just a L2p issue spare me the comments, don't care again)
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Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just wait until people start unlocking the awesome dodge roll bonuses in the champion trees too.
How much weapon dmg is Way of Air setting giving now-a-days?
Also what abilities currently go through Dodge Roll? I know that Velocious CUrse does and I think Magicka Detonation does.Edited by Erock25 on 27 March 2015 16:51You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points4 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Ezareth I dunno, I get hit while I'm dodge rolling, not much, but I get hit. Just rolled a Stamina build so I can't do it forever, but I'm working on it...
They shouldn't be able to dodge roll forever, no, that's like Sorcerers being able to Bolt-Escape forever. But they should be able to do it A LOT because it uses their offensive pool, and the reduction needs to be insanely high for it to work. I hardly ever use dodge roll inside combat, I just let Evasion work it's wonders... I use dodge roll to get away or charge my Ultimate.
Yes I get hit through dodge roll just like I get hit from 60 yards away by critical rush. Sometimes laggy cyrodiil is just laggy and what you see on your screen is not what other people see and the whole system just breaks down. We can't really balance the game around that.
Decoupling Dodge Roll reduction from Stamina Cost reduction enchants still allows you to reduce the cost of dodge roll to 2222. Most stamina build players are running around with 25K + stamina so this with regen will still allow a player to dodge roll for several minutes with regen and tri-pots. I'm asking for a relatively minor adjustment, not an extreme nerf. It's probably not enough to completely mitigate the problem altogether but I've always favored minor changes and testing in real scenarios to drastic changes and knee-jerk reactions.Well op is right...but coming from a sorc with ~3k magika regeneration (don't make me take screen shots from your videos ) and 2k spell damage its just hilarious (yea yea...we know you made sacrifices to get there...don't care)
and even more funny is that all sorcs are coming here to defend the QQ just as NBs are going over to the " rise of sorc" post.
LOL...
weren't sorcs recommending that a nb to avoid deaths from a sorc needs to roll dodge? I guess NBs finally L2P
At least this game has evolved from 1 fotY(dk bathrobe spammers/snipe spammers ) to 2 fotms (sorcs and 2h ers perma dodgers).
Funny how the OP builds right now complain on the forums (yea I know you guys are not op..its just a L2p issue spare me the comments, don't care again)
I have less than 2400 magicka regen and less than 1800 spell power with my current build. The video you're speaking of saw me full Light Armor (Which I no longer can justify wearing), Entropy up (+20% Spell power) and a tri-pot active which boosted my regen by another 20%
All that said, don't forget I'm advocating changing Magicka regen in the same way I'm advocating changing stamina regen.
These changes weren't suggested to remove the abilities of players to dodge-roll, personally I rely on it myself. In fact as soon as get enough AP I'm buying 2 more Cyrodiil light rings to run 3 Stamina-cost reduction enchants as a Magicka user because it is that good right now.
I'll freely admit I'm a min/maxer and I take advantage of every shred of utility and power I can squeeze out of anything. Unlike many of these players however I'm revealing my research and knowledge for the good of the community in an attempt to achieve balance.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube2 -
Panda244✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Ezareth I dunno, I get hit while I'm dodge rolling, not much, but I get hit. Just rolled a Stamina build so I can't do it forever, but I'm working on it...
They shouldn't be able to dodge roll forever, no, that's like Sorcerers being able to Bolt-Escape forever. But they should be able to do it A LOT because it uses their offensive pool, and the reduction needs to be insanely high for it to work. I hardly ever use dodge roll inside combat, I just let Evasion work it's wonders... I use dodge roll to get away or charge my Ultimate.
Yes I get hit through dodge roll just like I get hit from 60 yards away by critical rush. Sometimes laggy cyrodiil is just laggy and what you see on your screen is not what other people see and the whole system just breaks down. We can't really balance the game around that.
Decoupling Dodge Roll reduction from Stamina Cost reduction enchants still allows you to reduce the cost of dodge roll to 2222. Most stamina build players are running around with 25K + stamina so this with regen will still allow a player to dodge roll for several minutes with regen and tri-pots. I'm asking for a relatively minor adjustment, not an extreme nerf. It's probably not enough to completely mitigate the problem altogether but I've always favored minor changes and testing in real scenarios to drastic changes and knee-jerk reactions.Well op is right...but coming from a sorc with ~3k magika regeneration (don't make me take screen shots from your videos ) and 2k spell damage its just hilarious (yea yea...we know you made sacrifices to get there...don't care)
and even more funny is that all sorcs are coming here to defend the QQ just as NBs are going over to the " rise of sorc" post.
LOL...
weren't sorcs recommending that a nb to avoid deaths from a sorc needs to roll dodge? I guess NBs finally L2P
At least this game has evolved from 1 fotY(dk bathrobe spammers/snipe spammers ) to 2 fotms (sorcs and 2h ers perma dodgers).
Funny how the OP builds right now complain on the forums (yea I know you guys are not op..its just a L2p issue spare me the comments, don't care again)
I have less than 2400 magicka regen and less than 1800 spell power with my current build. The video you're speaking of saw me full Light Armor (Which I no longer can justify wearing), Entropy up (+20% Spell power) and a tri-pot active which boosted my regen by another 20%
All that said, don't forget I'm advocating changing Magicka regen in the same way I'm advocating changing stamina regen.
These changes weren't suggested to remove the abilities of players to dodge-roll, personally I rely on it myself. In fact as soon as get enough AP I'm buying 2 more Cyrodiil light rings to run 3 Stamina-cost reduction enchants as a Magicka user because it is that good right now.
I'll freely admit I'm a min/maxer and I take advantage of every shred of utility and power I can squeeze out of anything. Unlike many of these players however I'm revealing my research and knowledge for the good of the community in an attempt to achieve balance.
Balance will never be achieved. Zenimax goes from one extreme to the other, Siege is a perfect example of it. The game will always have issues, the least we can do is hope these issues get toned down in time. But yea, regen and cost reduction need to be reworked, because currently, with Crassus's magic build I can legitimately SPAM wings and not have my magic decrease. I'm not talking every 4s, I'm talking every button press.Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)
#FreeZazeer
#FreeGooey
#FreeAsgari
#FreeAoE
#FreeSubtomik
#FreeMBF
Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.1 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭
Dodge roll is only a problem if someone isn't using the counter to it. I find about 80% of the time someone tries to roll away when they are hurt I can kill them. Other nightblades are the only ones who can be tricky sometimes because they pair it with bow, double take, and the med armor run passive.
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Ezareth I dunno, I get hit while I'm dodge rolling, not much, but I get hit. Just rolled a Stamina build so I can't do it forever, but I'm working on it...
They shouldn't be able to dodge roll forever, no, that's like Sorcerers being able to Bolt-Escape forever. But they should be able to do it A LOT because it uses their offensive pool, and the reduction needs to be insanely high for it to work. I hardly ever use dodge roll inside combat, I just let Evasion work it's wonders... I use dodge roll to get away or charge my Ultimate.
Yes I get hit through dodge roll just like I get hit from 60 yards away by critical rush. Sometimes laggy cyrodiil is just laggy and what you see on your screen is not what other people see and the whole system just breaks down. We can't really balance the game around that.
Decoupling Dodge Roll reduction from Stamina Cost reduction enchants still allows you to reduce the cost of dodge roll to 2222. Most stamina build players are running around with 25K + stamina so this with regen will still allow a player to dodge roll for several minutes with regen and tri-pots. I'm asking for a relatively minor adjustment, not an extreme nerf. It's probably not enough to completely mitigate the problem altogether but I've always favored minor changes and testing in real scenarios to drastic changes and knee-jerk reactions.Well op is right...but coming from a sorc with ~3k magika regeneration (don't make me take screen shots from your videos ) and 2k spell damage its just hilarious (yea yea...we know you made sacrifices to get there...don't care)
and even more funny is that all sorcs are coming here to defend the QQ just as NBs are going over to the " rise of sorc" post.
LOL...
weren't sorcs recommending that a nb to avoid deaths from a sorc needs to roll dodge? I guess NBs finally L2P
At least this game has evolved from 1 fotY(dk bathrobe spammers/snipe spammers ) to 2 fotms (sorcs and 2h ers perma dodgers).
Funny how the OP builds right now complain on the forums (yea I know you guys are not op..its just a L2p issue spare me the comments, don't care again)
I have less than 2400 magicka regen and less than 1800 spell power with my current build. The video you're speaking of saw me full Light Armor (Which I no longer can justify wearing), Entropy up (+20% Spell power) and a tri-pot active which boosted my regen by another 20%
All that said, don't forget I'm advocating changing Magicka regen in the same way I'm advocating changing stamina regen.
These changes weren't suggested to remove the abilities of players to dodge-roll, personally I rely on it myself. In fact as soon as get enough AP I'm buying 2 more Cyrodiil light rings to run 3 Stamina-cost reduction enchants as a Magicka user because it is that good right now.
I'll freely admit I'm a min/maxer and I take advantage of every shred of utility and power I can squeeze out of anything. Unlike many of these players however I'm revealing my research and knowledge for the good of the community in an attempt to achieve balance.
Balance will never be achieved. Zenimax goes from one extreme to the other, Siege is a perfect example of it. The game will always have issues, the least we can do is hope these issues get toned down in time. But yea, regen and cost reduction need to be reworked, because currently, with Crassus's magic build I can legitimately SPAM wings and not have my magic decrease. I'm not talking every 4s, I'm talking every button press.
Yes currently without spamming bolt escape I just can't run out of magicka in PvP either and I'm sure it is the same for properly design stamina builds as well.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
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Dodge roll is only a problem if someone isn't using the counter to it. I find about 80% of the time someone tries to roll away when they are hurt I can kill them. Other nightblades are the only ones who can be tricky sometimes because they pair it with bow, double take, and the med armor run passive.
I have 2 direct dodge roll counters on my spell bar and it isn't enough to kill a good player by myself or even with 3 players like me.
The best players couple dodge roll spam with other survival abilities like healing ward, green dragon blood, vigor etc. They're also using tripots to top of their health and stam when necessary.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭do what they did to bolt escape, only slightly different, if reused within 3 seconds of the previous dodge roll increase the cost by 10%, if you do it again within 3 secs, the cost goes up a further 10% to a cap of 100%
Just a suggestion
PC EU
PvP only1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
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Normal players eventually run out of stamina.
I'm pretty sure Ezareth just proved that normal players will not run out of stamina if they build their characters right.
How is this any different than all the sorcs casting perma BE, that I keep running into on a daily basis?
Because of the 50% cost increase mechanic, BE can not be used indefinitely like dodge roll. Also dodge roll negates a lot more damage than BE. Also, you can use skills while dodge rolling. Also, dodge roll isn't a class skill so not sure why they are being compared.If stamina dodge rolling is to strong for survivability, I'd throw ball lightning under the bus with it. Moves the player away from melee, any projectiles are absorbed. With 7/7 light armor regen bonuses, 600 magicka cost enchants, Arcanist 25% Magicka Regneration and Magician giving a 15.8% cost reduction to magicka spells is is already very spamable. Throw 30k magicka under it with warlock set.
Ball of Lightning only absorbs spell projectiles.
Not true, it also absorbs fire ballista
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Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭A bunch of things will break for players over 1k CP. Dodge Roll will probably be the first (for WW Bosmer Nightblades, anyway). But Bolt Escape and Block won't be far behind. Everything meant to be resource-constrained will eventually ignore those limits.
This isn't an emergency. Only a few players will achieve huge numbers of CP in the next six months or so, and most of us should just learn to cope with the fact that they are going to be disproportionately powerful.
Over the long-term, ZOS may have to rethink its design. The power curve between 30 CP and a perfectly built and geared up, 1k CP character of any class is going to be galactic in scope. While I personally like that sort of thing, I recognize that most people do not, and it may not be healthy for the game in the long run.
Again, though, it won't be just dodgers. They'll be the first. But every spec will get there.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade3 -
Lorkhan✭✭✭✭✭as top magika builds can sustain infinite bolt scape, or dgb, or darkcloak, or templarshields, i think this is justice to top stamina builds6 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭The best players couple dodge roll spam with other survival abilities like healing ward, green dragon blood, vigor etc. They're also using tripots to top of their health and stam when necessary.
I may be alone in this, but so what?
If "the best players" can put together specs that, with great gear and plenty of CP and pots, become extremely difficult to kill, I see that as a reward for being that good. That's a goal.
Can you imagine Teargrants with 1k CP? Sheliza? Effing Sypher? Heck, you're going to be goofy strong, too. The top players are going to be minibosses. I don't think more than a small percentage of players will achieve that, though. So, even speaking as someone who decidedly is not elite, I think that's kinda cool. As long as the population is large enough that I'm not getting my arse handed to me by a 'name' every 8 minutes, I don't mind getting wrecked on occasion.
But, again, I suspect my opinion will be shared by a tiny number of people
Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade8 -
Warraxx✭✭✭✭✭The best players couple dodge roll spam with other survival abilities like healing ward, green dragon blood, vigor etc. They're also using tripots to top of their health and stam when necessary.
I may be alone in this, but so what?
If "the best players" can put together specs that, with great gear and plenty of CP and pots, become extremely difficult to kill, I see that as a reward for being that good. That's a goal.
Can you imagine Teargrants with 1k CP? Sheliza? Effing Sypher? Heck, you're going to be goofy strong, too. The top players are going to be minibosses. I don't think more than a small percentage of players will achieve that, though. So, even speaking as someone who decidedly is not elite, I think that's kinda cool. As long as the population is large enough that I'm not getting my arse handed to me by a 'name' every 8 minutes, I don't mind getting wrecked on occasion.
But, again, I suspect my opinion will be shared by a tiny number of people
this post needs moar Warraxx.2 -
NoRefunds✭✭✭LOL this coming from a sorc is hilarious, i can bolt escape 15 meters away for 15 times but you cant roll dodge 3 meters away, right? Dodge roll is also super easy to counter,if you CC them they die, i kill the roll dodgers with lotus fan+ fear since they both cant be dodged, but i have NO WAY of killing a sorc bolt escaping away with shields on, ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR 90% of the people, infact now good players dont even try to kill a sorc, its a waste of time....but yeah nerf roll dodge7
