Rise of The Perma-Dodger

RinaldoGandolphi

TheBull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The issue is the fact that currently there exists a way to reduce the cost of this action to less than half of its current cost without *any* sacrifice to damage or gearing.

...

Ezareth wrote: »

Next we're going to look at Stamina Cost reduction enchants on rings and next. Having all three VR14 Legendary Stamina cost reduction enchants reduces the cost of Stamina abilities, Dodge roll, and break free by 637.

Good thing there are no weapon damage enchants for jewelry, eh? Because if there were, not using them would be a significant sacrifice to damage.

In 1.6 it is far more efficient to get your weapon damage from sources other than ring enchants. The damage enchants scaled worst than anything else in 1.6 and the cost reduction enchants are far more powerful. Few people that know what they're doing are using weapon (or spell) damage enchants, they are using cost reduction enchants because they significantly lower their ability cost.

The reality is that people would be using stamina cost reduction enchants regardless of them being decoupled from dodge roll and break free because the weapon damage is so weak right now. There is no sacrifice there.

I'll give you the point though *any* is incorrect and I thought I corrected that when I proof read my post, or maybe it was in one of my later statements.

This is garbage. This is advice from a magicka sorc being given to stamina builds. Don't get me wrong 600 reduced cost feels very good, but the sacrifice to damage is very real.

It's a situation of "hey look! I just saved 2400 stamina on those 4 feats! Awesome!" The thing is I could have killed them in 3 or even 2 gcds and got out sooner with more weapon damage.

Reduction is viable for "you see me I see you and no one is coming" situations. That's not how a lot of stamina builds play though. Most prefer to see and kill you before you see them. In those situations, the situation that good players create most often damage is king.

.



I worry far more about builds with meat and potatoes behind them, like the templar I fought on the open field south of nikel for a good 5 mins before eventually getting him, guy was a hell of a good player, he later on got me back though, heck of a nice guy. Then I do about all out damage builds, they are easy to run out of resources.

Math dont lie, numbers dont lie cost reduction is better in every way. Being able to use your abilities more times = doing more damage over a larger sample, it also means you won't die as often due to deeper resource pools. Anything that gives you more resources then your enemy is a significant advantage.

Defensive skills and abilities in this game are far more powerful then their offensive counterparts,anything that allows you to keep more active defensives, block more, or mitigate damage is superior in this game just on how they designed it.

Defensive and sustain is king in this game, hardened ward, annulement, Ball of lighting, gdb, reflective scales, blazing shield, igneous shield, etc are the most powerful and most whined about abilities in the game because they are better then any offensive ability, and cost reduction makes them better, you will be hard pressed to beat players good players who leverage these andantages with weapon damage and spell damage enchants.

TheBull

woodsro wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The issue is the fact that currently there exists a way to reduce the cost of this action to less than half of its current cost without *any* sacrifice to damage or gearing.

...

Ezareth wrote: »

Next we're going to look at Stamina Cost reduction enchants on rings and next. Having all three VR14 Legendary Stamina cost reduction enchants reduces the cost of Stamina abilities, Dodge roll, and break free by 637.

Good thing there are no weapon damage enchants for jewelry, eh? Because if there were, not using them would be a significant sacrifice to damage.

In 1.6 it is far more efficient to get your weapon damage from sources other than ring enchants. The damage enchants scaled worst than anything else in 1.6 and the cost reduction enchants are far more powerful. Few people that know what they're doing are using weapon (or spell) damage enchants, they are using cost reduction enchants because they significantly lower their ability cost.

The reality is that people would be using stamina cost reduction enchants regardless of them being decoupled from dodge roll and break free because the weapon damage is so weak right now. There is no sacrifice there.

I'll give you the point though *any* is incorrect and I thought I corrected that when I proof read my post, or maybe it was in one of my later statements.

This is garbage. This is advice from a magicka sorc being given to stamina builds. Don't get me wrong 600 reduced cost feels very good, but the sacrifice to damage is very real.

It's a situation of "hey look! I just saved 2400 stamina on those 4 feats! Awesome!" The thing is I could have killed them in 3 or even 2 gcds and got out sooner with more weapon damage.

Reduction is viable for "you see me I see you and no one is coming" situations. That's not how a lot of stamina builds play though. Most prefer to see and kill you before you see them. In those situations, the situation that good players create most often damage is king.

.



I worry far more about builds with meat and potatoes behind them, like the templar I fought on the open field south of nikel for a good 5 mins before eventually getting him, guy was a hell of a good player, he later on got me back though, heck of a nice guy. Then I do about all out damage builds, they are easy to run out of resources.

Math dont lie, numbers dont lie cost reduction is better in every way. Being able to use your abilities more times = doing more damage over a larger sample, it also means you won't die as often due to deeper resource pools. Anything that gives you more resources then your enemy is a significant advantage.

Defensive skills and abilities in this game are far more powerful then their offensive counterparts,anything that allows you to keep more active defensives, block more, or mitigate damage is superior in this game just on how they designed it.

Defensive and sustain is king in this game, hardened ward, annulement, Ball of lighting, gdb, reflective scales, blazing shield, igneous shield, etc are the most powerful and most whined about abilities in the game because they are better then any offensive ability, and cost reduction makes them better, you will be hard pressed to beat players good players who leverage these andantages with weapon damage and spell damage enchants.

I respectfully disagree. Burst damage is very high now. It's possible to do a couple hundred thousand damage with bar of stamina without pots. If you (as in whoever) have not killed your opponent well before then you may need to look at your play style.

To each their own though.

Davadin

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

21% stam regen for a racial passive, i mean lol zos lol.
this really is an issue that is coming up, 90% of damage misses these rolly pollys from all classes and then they can roll towards you and 2-3 shot your ass while still rolling and avoiding damage. needs a fix for sure.

slippery pointy ears ***...

/Nord

Davadin

Snit wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The best players couple dodge roll spam with other survival abilities like healing ward, green dragon blood, vigor etc. They're also using tripots to top of their health and stam when necessary.

I may be alone in this, but so what?

If "the best players" can put together specs that, with great gear and plenty of CP and pots, become extremely difficult to kill, I see that as a reward for being that good. That's a goal.

Can you imagine Teargrants with 1k CP? Sheliza? Effing Sypher? Heck, you're going to be goofy strong, too. The top players are going to be minibosses. I don't think more than a small percentage of players will achieve that, though. So, even speaking as someone who decidedly is not elite, I think that's kinda cool. As long as the population is large enough that I'm not getting my arse handed to me by a 'name' every 8 minutes, I don't mind getting wrecked on occasion.

But, again, I suspect my opinion will be shared by a tiny number of people

WELL said.

i agree.

it also gives me the incentives to better myself.

woodsro wrote: »

Defensive and sustain is king in this game, hardened ward, annulement, Ball of lighting, gdb, reflective scales, blazing shield, igneous shield, etc are the most powerful and most whined about abilities in the game because they are better then any offensive ability, and cost reduction makes them better, you will be hard pressed to beat players good players who leverage these andantages with weapon damage and spell damage enchants.

good.

i wish people would stop complaining about Wrecking Blow.

Panda244

Cody wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

@Ezareth I dunno, I get hit while I'm dodge rolling, not much, but I get hit. Just rolled a Stamina build so I can't do it forever, but I'm working on it...

They shouldn't be able to dodge roll forever, no, that's like Sorcerers being able to Bolt-Escape forever. But they should be able to do it A LOT because it uses their offensive pool, and the reduction needs to be insanely high for it to work. I hardly ever use dodge roll inside combat, I just let Evasion work it's wonders... I use dodge roll to get away or charge my Ultimate.

Yes I get hit through dodge roll just like I get hit from 60 yards away by critical rush. Sometimes laggy cyrodiil is just laggy and what you see on your screen is not what other people see and the whole system just breaks down. We can't really balance the game around that.

Decoupling Dodge Roll reduction from Stamina Cost reduction enchants still allows you to reduce the cost of dodge roll to 2222. Most stamina build players are running around with 25K + stamina so this with regen will still allow a player to dodge roll for several minutes with regen and tri-pots. I'm asking for a relatively minor adjustment, not an extreme nerf. It's probably not enough to completely mitigate the problem altogether but I've always favored minor changes and testing in real scenarios to drastic changes and knee-jerk reactions.

Ashanne wrote: »

Well op is right...but coming from a sorc with ~3k magika regeneration (don't make me take screen shots from your videos ) and 2k spell damage its just hilarious (yea yea...we know you made sacrifices to get there...don't care)
and even more funny is that all sorcs are coming here to defend the QQ just as NBs are going over to the " rise of sorc" post.
LOL...
weren't sorcs recommending that a nb to avoid deaths from a sorc needs to roll dodge? I guess NBs finally L2P

At least this game has evolved from 1 fotY(dk bathrobe spammers/snipe spammers ) to 2 fotms (sorcs and 2h ers perma dodgers).
Funny how the OP builds right now complain on the forums (yea I know you guys are not op..its just a L2p issue spare me the comments, don't care again)

I have less than 2400 magicka regen and less than 1800 spell power with my current build. The video you're speaking of saw me full Light Armor (Which I no longer can justify wearing), Entropy up (+20% Spell power) and a tri-pot active which boosted my regen by another 20%

All that said, don't forget I'm advocating changing Magicka regen in the same way I'm advocating changing stamina regen.

These changes weren't suggested to remove the abilities of players to dodge-roll, personally I rely on it myself. In fact as soon as get enough AP I'm buying 2 more Cyrodiil light rings to run 3 Stamina-cost reduction enchants as a Magicka user because it is that good right now.

I'll freely admit I'm a min/maxer and I take advantage of every shred of utility and power I can squeeze out of anything. Unlike many of these players however I'm revealing my research and knowledge for the good of the community in an attempt to achieve balance.

Balance will never be achieved. Zenimax goes from one extreme to the other, Siege is a perfect example of it. The game will always have issues, the least we can do is hope these issues get toned down in time. But yea, regen and cost reduction need to be reworked, because currently, with Crassus's magic build I can legitimately SPAM wings and not have my magic decrease. I'm not talking every 4s, I'm talking every button press.

I noticed when I fought you:D

@Cody I changed to Stamina... That build was so asinine up close and personal, Magic DK isn't viable in PvP because everyone and their mother has a gap closer to *** slap you with WB, and the bowturds will get through Reflect because Reflect only being able to protect you from 4 Projectiles in a medium or large fight isn't worth the slot.

TheBucket

Wait till you guus find out you can perma block forever with high magic dps as a Nightblade using reductions. Lol


Its all coming to light now

Emma_Overload

Ezareth wrote: »

I know by bringing this up I'm calling for all the Stamina users to get out their pitchforks and torches but I feel this issue is better addressed sooner rather than later before Perma-dodgers becomes the current meta for everyone (including Sorcs!). There are already no few number of skilled players taking advantage of this and more and more people are catching on.

Yes I'm aware that there are counters to the dodge roll but we all know that 90%+ off the abilities used in Cyrodiil are completely evaded by dodge rolling and a player that is exposed in combat can usually extract himself from danger by a large number of attackers with a number of successive dodge rolls. The tradeoff to this has always been the assumption that the player would run out of stamina eventually and that you'd be able to kill the target.

In 2.0 Dodge roll costs 3591 Stamina which is appropriately expensive.

The issue is the fact that currently there exists a way to reduce the cost of this action to less than half of its current cost without *any* sacrifice to damage or gearing.

With the massive increase in power given to Stamina builds in 2.0 Medium armor is the new offensive requirement for a Stamina user. Wearing a full set of Medium armor gives you a 28% reduction to the costs of Dodge rolls which by itself reduces the cost of a dodge roll to 2709.

Next we're going to look at Stamina Cost reduction enchants on rings and next. Having all three VR14 Legendary Stamina cost reduction enchants reduces the cost of Stamina abilities, Dodge roll, and break free by 637. (Yes the tooltip says 200 each but each enchant gives you 212.something reduction). Having Medium Armor and Stamina cost reduction enchants will reduce the cost of your dodge roll to 2229. Pretty much every good stamina user in PvP will have at very least this cost as there is literally zero reason to use an enchant other than stamina cost reduction due its excessive strength compared to other choices.

Finally let's look at the Tumbler Champion Ability which at max rank will give you an 18% reduction to the cost of break free and dodge rolling. With max Tumbler your cost of dodge roll is reduced to 1741, a 52.5% overall reduction to the base cost of dodge rolling.

By itself this would seem reasonable but when you consider the ridiculous amounts of stamina regeneration a player can get coupled with the extreme cost reduction that is available to all stamina based weapon abilities a stamina user can build for pure damage and sustainability and by doing so give him the ability to "Permanently" dodge roll whenever he is threatened. He can in essence do this even after he has completely exhausted his stamina supply by regeneration alone!

Here are the current bonuses a player can get depending on his race/class to stamina regeneration (I'm sure I'm missing a few):
Bosmer 21%
Redguard 9%
NB Shadow passive 30%
Full Medium Armor 28%
Werewolf 15%
Vampire 10%
Green Dragon Blood 20%
Any Stamina Potion 20%
Focused attacks 10%
Restoring Aura 10/20%
Absorption Field 20%
Mooncalf Champion Ability adds up to 25% *multiplicative* with everything else.

Now these by themselves are only powerful if you're able to boost your *base* stamina recovery to high levels.

The base Stamina recovery of a V14 character is 514. With Blue V10 Stamina/Magicka drink add 350. With 3 V14 Stamina Recovery set bonuses at 126 each your total base Stamina Recovery becomes 1242. That base becomes becomes 3322 Stamina recovery by itself to a Bosmer Nightblade Werewolf wearing Medium armor with under the effects of a tristat pot with maxed out Mooncalf. Now 3000+ Stamina Recovery is going to be the exception not the rule but for any stamina build getting over 2000 stamina recovery is relatively easy especially if you're a min/maxer like myself. I'm wearing light armor and not even trying and I have stamina recovery of over 1200 while I'm under the effects of a tripot.

To demonstrate the absurdity of this setup I created the following character on the PTS.

He is a Bosmer Nightblade werewolf with V10 Tri-drink (not the better V10 Blue drink). I'm wearing full medium armor but have absolutely zero set bonuses to increase my base stamina recovery so I dumped in 100 points to Mooncalf to get my Stamina regen up to just under 2000. I then put 38 points into the tumbler passive which is doable by many players at this point and reduces the cost of dodge roll by only 9.8%.

I'll let the results speak for themselves:
(Note: I've never used a bow before this and my perma dodge-rolling technique is not nearly as smooth as it could be)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1AKU5kM5Dk

There are two proposals I have to fix this and other regeneration issues (including magicka regeneration which is another problem altogether).

First, the Stamina Cost reduction enchant should only apply to Stamina *abilities* not break free and dodge roll. Block was separated already and in set bonuses, passives, champion points and everything else in the game Stamina cost reduction and Dodge roll cost reduction are separate. I know people are going to say that break free and dodge roll shares the same pool as their damage abilities but to offset that stamina weapon abilities have far more cost reduction options available to them which make them far cheaper than your average magicka damage abilities. Additionally players have their magicka pool to dedicate to healing abilities, damage shields and other defensive abilities that follow similar effectiveness to a magicka user using dodge roll and break free.

Second, *all* Champion regeneration passives need to be made additive like other resources of regeneration instead of being multiplicative. Either that or they need to have their maximum capped at 18% or 15.8% like the cost reduction abilities.

I think if we do these things, perma dodge rolling will be far more difficult to achieve and the cost for the ability will be more meaningful while not changing anything for heavy and light armor users who aren't running pure stamina builds.

The regeneration fix will help stem (but not completely eliminate) the excessive resources people are running around with right now.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!

LOL, what about all the people who aren't Bosmer Werewolves with hundreds of CP invested in stamina regen and cost reduction? Roll dodge cost is ALREADY TOO EXPENSIVE for most players and always has been. It's so useless for my magicka Sorc that I can't even remember what the keybind is! On top of that, stamina regen and management is ALREADY too weak for some classes and builds, so please don't make it any worse.

I'm sorry to sound so dismissive, but the OP just sounds like a whining PvP player who doesn't care how bad PvE players get screwed by the endless NERFS that are made by ZoS on his behalf!

sagitter

Another suggestion : make stamina regen decreased while dodge rolling , like it is for moving while hide. This way stamina builds could still dodge rolls more than magicka builds, but not consecutive infinitely.

Kypho

Ezareth wrote: »

I know by bringing this up I'm calling for all the Stamina users to get out their pitchforks and torches but I feel this issue is better addressed sooner rather than later before Perma-dodgers becomes the current meta for everyone (including Sorcs!). There are already no few number of skilled players taking advantage of this and more and more people are catching on.

Yes I'm aware that there are counters to the dodge roll but we all know that 90%+ off the abilities used in Cyrodiil are completely evaded by dodge rolling and a player that is exposed in combat can usually extract himself from danger by a large number of attackers with a number of successive dodge rolls. The tradeoff to this has always been the assumption that the player would run out of stamina eventually and that you'd be able to kill the target.

In 2.0 Dodge roll costs 3591 Stamina which is appropriately expensive.

The issue is the fact that currently there exists a way to reduce the cost of this action to less than half of its current cost without *any* sacrifice to damage or gearing.

With the massive increase in power given to Stamina builds in 2.0 Medium armor is the new offensive requirement for a Stamina user. Wearing a full set of Medium armor gives you a 28% reduction to the costs of Dodge rolls which by itself reduces the cost of a dodge roll to 2709.

Next we're going to look at Stamina Cost reduction enchants on rings and next. Having all three VR14 Legendary Stamina cost reduction enchants reduces the cost of Stamina abilities, Dodge roll, and break free by 637. (Yes the tooltip says 200 each but each enchant gives you 212.something reduction). Having Medium Armor and Stamina cost reduction enchants will reduce the cost of your dodge roll to 2229. Pretty much every good stamina user in PvP will have at very least this cost as there is literally zero reason to use an enchant other than stamina cost reduction due its excessive strength compared to other choices.

Finally let's look at the Tumbler Champion Ability which at max rank will give you an 18% reduction to the cost of break free and dodge rolling. With max Tumbler your cost of dodge roll is reduced to 1741, a 52.5% overall reduction to the base cost of dodge rolling.

By itself this would seem reasonable but when you consider the ridiculous amounts of stamina regeneration a player can get coupled with the extreme cost reduction that is available to all stamina based weapon abilities a stamina user can build for pure damage and sustainability and by doing so give him the ability to "Permanently" dodge roll whenever he is threatened. He can in essence do this even after he has completely exhausted his stamina supply by regeneration alone!

Here are the current bonuses a player can get depending on his race/class to stamina regeneration (I'm sure I'm missing a few):
Bosmer 21%
Redguard 9%
NB Shadow passive 30%
Full Medium Armor 28%
Werewolf 15%
Vampire 10%
Green Dragon Blood 20%
Any Stamina Potion 20%
Focused attacks 10%
Restoring Aura 10/20%
Absorption Field 20%
Mooncalf Champion Ability adds up to 25% *multiplicative* with everything else.

Now these by themselves are only powerful if you're able to boost your *base* stamina recovery to high levels.

The base Stamina recovery of a V14 character is 514. With Blue V10 Stamina/Magicka drink add 350. With 3 V14 Stamina Recovery set bonuses at 126 each your total base Stamina Recovery becomes 1242. That base becomes becomes 3322 Stamina recovery by itself to a Bosmer Nightblade Werewolf wearing Medium armor with under the effects of a tristat pot with maxed out Mooncalf. Now 3000+ Stamina Recovery is going to be the exception not the rule but for any stamina build getting over 2000 stamina recovery is relatively easy especially if you're a min/maxer like myself. I'm wearing light armor and not even trying and I have stamina recovery of over 1200 while I'm under the effects of a tripot.

To demonstrate the absurdity of this setup I created the following character on the PTS.

He is a Bosmer Nightblade werewolf with V10 Tri-drink (not the better V10 Blue drink). I'm wearing full medium armor but have absolutely zero set bonuses to increase my base stamina recovery so I dumped in 100 points to Mooncalf to get my Stamina regen up to just under 2000. I then put 38 points into the tumbler passive which is doable by many players at this point and reduces the cost of dodge roll by only 9.8%.

I'll let the results speak for themselves:
(Note: I've never used a bow before this and my perma dodge-rolling technique is not nearly as smooth as it could be)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1AKU5kM5Dk

There are two proposals I have to fix this and other regeneration issues (including magicka regeneration which is another problem altogether).

First, the Stamina Cost reduction enchant should only apply to Stamina *abilities* not break free and dodge roll. Block was separated already and in set bonuses, passives, champion points and everything else in the game Stamina cost reduction and Dodge roll cost reduction are separate. I know people are going to say that break free and dodge roll shares the same pool as their damage abilities but to offset that stamina weapon abilities have far more cost reduction options available to them which make them far cheaper than your average magicka damage abilities. Additionally players have their magicka pool to dedicate to healing abilities, damage shields and other defensive abilities that follow similar effectiveness to a magicka user using dodge roll and break free.

Second, *all* Champion regeneration passives need to be made additive like other resources of regeneration instead of being multiplicative. Either that or they need to have their maximum capped at 18% or 15.8% like the cost reduction abilities.

I think if we do these things, perma dodge rolling will be far more difficult to achieve and the cost for the ability will be more meaningful while not changing anything for heavy and light armor users who aren't running pure stamina builds.

The regeneration fix will help stem (but not completely eliminate) the excessive resources people are running around with right now.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!

Too much bad information, misleading stuff. Coming from a Sorcerer who tries to defend its OP class.

Kypho

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

21% stam regen for a racial passive, i mean lol zos lol.
this really is an issue that is coming up, 90% of damage misses these rolly pollys from all classes and then they can roll towards you and 2-3 shot your ass while still rolling and avoiding damage. needs a fix for sure.

QQ streak, spam QQ streak spam. You almost one hit with 14k+ spell damage. ofc all want dodge those attacks.

Kypho

NoRefunds wrote: »

LOL this coming from a sorc is hilarious, i can bolt escape 15 meters away for 15 times but you cant roll dodge 3 meters away, right? Dodge roll is also super easy to counter,if you CC them they die, i kill the roll dodgers with lotus fan+ fear since they both cant be dodged, but i have NO WAY of killing a sorc bolt escaping away with shields on, ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR 90% of the people, infact now good players dont even try to kill a sorc, its a waste of time....but yeah nerf roll dodge

Sorcerer 19k shield, streak spam, insane damage output

As you said:

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!

Make sorcerer less OP than other classes Thanks!

Kypho

10K strong hardened ward, cost ~1500 magicka what can be reduced greatly via enchants, and CP. Warlock set helps with keep Magicka, while stamina has no such set. ward is much better than roll. Just one example.


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!

vichoi

Kypho wrote: »

10K strong hardened ward, cost ~1500 magicka what can be reduced greatly via enchants, and CP. Warlock set helps with keep Magicka, while stamina has no such set. ward is much better than roll. Just one example.


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!

I Stack spell power and magicka but I can't reach 10k ward, if I stack reduction I can't even reach 8k ward.
Sorc is stronger after 1.6, but they're no op

Kypho

Magicka: Perma warding
Stamina: Perma dodging


???? lol

Kypho

vichoi wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

10K strong hardened ward, cost ~1500 magicka what can be reduced greatly via enchants, and CP. Warlock set helps with keep Magicka, while stamina has no such set. ward is much better than roll. Just one example.


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!

I Stack spell power and magicka but I can't reach 10k ward, if I stack reduction I can't even reach 8k ward.
Sorc is stronger after 1.6, but they're no op

Thats your problem. I can tell you name who can do 10k ward. And stack 3 wards so its doable

Give me your ward and i will forget any dodge. 1.5k cost 10k ward, (FYI 19k was highest ive seen, but 1 ward wont protect against physical attack)

Ward spam still cost less than full CP+race bonus+enchant reduction+armor passive.
Look at the whole picture about ward vs dodge.

You complain about how low cost is dodge with all possible reduction, while your ward cost less still.
With ward you can attack till it last, one button and its up, and you spam again. Ward cant be critted so less damage than without ward, and you can still roll, block if you want.

Stamina rolldodge with all possible reduction, will still cost more than ward. wards are more effective, cant crit on it, healing ward heals etc.
While stamina build is for block, attack, roll. There is no warlock like set, what gives back stamina. Normaly you get more magicka back than stamina. If your ward is down, and you screw it up, you can still block a pair then get a ward up. When your stamina is out, you are dead.

So: magicka ward is more effective, anti crit, cost less, than roll with all possible reduction.

Non specced ward is still OP compared to roll dodge with all possible reduction. This need to change so ...


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!

vichoi

Agree

Wreuntzylla

It's really just annoying when you get TWO builds fighting each other with this setup. You just end up going your separate ways.

Nellzer

Ezareth wrote: »

This isn't a thread about Bolt Escape. The two abilities are intrinsically different for various reasons stated across every single Sorc QQ post back to the begining of the game. I'm built specifically for bolt escape with maximum cost reduction, cost reduction enchants and magicka regeneration and I can go from 100% magicka to 0% even using Tri-stat pots in less than 40 seconds of non-stop bolt escape. I also can't regenerate even close to the amount of magicka needed to sustain perma bolt escape.

With the maximum cost-reduction possible in the game, 3 magicka cost reduction enchants, maximum magicka cost reduction champion The cost of the increased cost Bolt escape is still 2353 magicka which coincidentally is still more than the cost the reduced cost of a Dodge roll even without cost reduction enchants and is far more difficult to achieve while costing us far more in tradeoffs (Full light armor, 2 Cost reduction 5-peice set bonuses etc.).

As I said, this isn't about Bolt Escape versus Dodge roll, it is about preventing the abuse of an incredibly powerful ability that can be used virtually for free by a large percentage of players.

No, the only reason the abilities are different and hence, these posts are different, is because you play a sorc. Playing a stam sorc really isn't ideal so you want to QQ now that other classes have the ability to 'LOL GTFO' anytime they want.

Get over it. And get over yourself.

vichoi

Kypho wrote: »

vichoi wrote: »

Kypho wrote: »

10K strong hardened ward, cost ~1500 magicka what can be reduced greatly via enchants, and CP. Warlock set helps with keep Magicka, while stamina has no such set. ward is much better than roll. Just one example.


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!

I Stack spell power and magicka but I can't reach 10k ward, if I stack reduction I can't even reach 8k ward.
Sorc is stronger after 1.6, but they're no op

Thats your problem. I can tell you name who can do 10k ward. And stack 3 wards so its doable

Give me your ward and i will forget any dodge. 1.5k cost 10k ward, (FYI 19k was highest ive seen, but 1 ward wont protect against physical attack)

Ward spam still cost less than full CP+race bonus+enchant reduction+armor passive.
Look at the whole picture about ward vs dodge.

You complain about how low cost is dodge with all possible reduction, while your ward cost less still.
With ward you can attack till it last, one button and its up, and you spam again. Ward cant be critted so less damage than without ward, and you can still roll, block if you want.

Stamina rolldodge with all possible reduction, will still cost more than ward. wards are more effective, cant crit on it, healing ward heals etc.
While stamina build is for block, attack, roll. There is no warlock like set, what gives back stamina. Normaly you get more magicka back than stamina. If your ward is down, and you screw it up, you can still block a pair then get a ward up. When your stamina is out, you are dead.

So: magicka ward is more effective, anti crit, cost less, than roll with all possible reduction.

Non specced ward is still OP compared to roll dodge with all possible reduction. This need to change so ...


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom having the devs take a look at this would be awesome. Thanks!

Ward can be critted, and their resist do not apply on ward, so ward always take max amount of damage, that why even 10k shield can be gone in one hit, and the other hit the sorcerer dead because he stack spell dmg and magicka as you mention, so he's health is low enough for you to kill.
One hit shields gone, apply fear and one more hit they die.

Kuro1n

Imo its fine as it is right now. Before nerfing this there needs to be fixed to the cloak and detection potion among other things otherwise nb will be complete trash.

Soulac

A Stamina NBs defense is rolling, since cloak is mostly countered, bugged and not efficient as Stamina Build.
So you want them to waste all their Stamina, which they also need for break free, bash, block and offense for an even more expensive dodge rolls?

I don't see the problem since Magicka builds got their perma shieldspam.

Deal with it.

yodased

Is everyone forgetting that you can rolldodge cancel?

Thats a very large part of rolling forever you can actually do damage to people while dodging because you just cancel the attack with rolldodge.

Or am I just late to the party here.

AltusVenifus

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Lol does no one use magicka detonation? I blow up roll Dodgers all the friggen time. Like the OP stated, there are counters. Roll dodging is a form of escape available to all classes and especially important to NB since cloak is lackluster compared to other classes o**** button. By nerfing dodge roll it will have a huge impact on magicka based users that can only dodge roll 2-3 times as is. Id support this if cloak worked as well as other skills, but as is, dodge rolling my only saving grace.

I don't think he means nerf dodge roll, just the infinity dodge roll. I would be really screwed if they nerfed the miss chance on dodge roll.

AltusVenifus

Erock25 wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

tbh, i feel like the damage shield issue is a bigger issue, and bolt escape is far superior to dodge roll spam.

however, if a player is truly capable of rolling infinitely(which i doubt, as the max I can roll with most of these reductions is 10-12 times, while in all medium armor with everything into stamina) then it should be looked at.

What is your stamina regen at?

It is a pretty good point... I have 2400 with 3 x cost reduction 15% werewolf + medium 28% + NB 30% + stamina regen gear. This is a CP issue, and not a gear issue and TBH I have not seen this in Cyrodiil yet. So it needs to be fix, but not game breaking yet.

Cthalion

Comparing dodge roll to BE? Really? There is no comparison. BE has longer range. You'd need 2-3 rolls or more to cover the same distance as 1 BE.

Also, as many veteran players have noticed, you will still get hit from 10 meters away with wrecking blow and other skills, even after rolling 1-2 times.

Ezareth

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

LOL, what about all the people who aren't Bosmer Werewolves with hundreds of CP invested in stamina regen and cost reduction? Roll dodge cost is ALREADY TOO EXPENSIVE for most players and always has been. It's so useless for my magicka Sorc that I can't even remember what the keybind is! On top of that, stamina regen and management is ALREADY too weak for some classes and builds, so please don't make it any worse.

I'm sorry to sound so dismissive, but the OP just sounds like a whining PvP player who doesn't care how bad PvE players get screwed by the endless NERFS that are made by ZoS on his behalf![/quote]

@Emma_Eunjung if you'd read everything without jumping to conclusions you'd see that it is *Very* easy for a medium armor build to have 2K stamina regen without being Bosmer and without being a werewolf.

Secondly, I'm not whining at all, I'm pointing out a flaw in the system. *No* defensive ability should be able to be cast perpetually without a Cost. I brought this same issue up back in the day to Brian Wheeler about Grand Healing being able to be permacast due to the insane magicka return and *I was the one exploiting this and 3-manning keeps with it*. He forwarded that on to the devs and they fixed it in the next patch. This is no different.

Lastly, my suggestions don't change PvE players or Sorcs in the slightest. No PvE player running a stamina build needs to dodge roll perpetually, and no PvE Sorc is running triple(or any) stamina cost reduction enchants. These changes wont impact them in the slightest. I however am now exploiting this broken enchant and am running triple Stamina cost reduction as a Magicka sorc!

My final suggestion on the change to the champion regen passives hurts *me* more than anyone because my entire build is build around exploiting that mechanic. Do you realize that I'm PvPing with over 3000 magicka regen and 1300 stamina regen almost 100% of the time? I literally can't run out of resources when PvPing. It needs fixing and it has nothing to do with PvP versus PvE it is just a broken form of math that should never have made it into the game.

AltusVenifus wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Lol does no one use magicka detonation? I blow up roll Dodgers all the friggen time. Like the OP stated, there are counters. Roll dodging is a form of escape available to all classes and especially important to NB since cloak is lackluster compared to other classes o**** button. By nerfing dodge roll it will have a huge impact on magicka based users that can only dodge roll 2-3 times as is. Id support this if cloak worked as well as other skills, but as is, dodge rolling my only saving grace.

I don't think he means nerf dodge roll, just the infinity dodge roll. I would be really screwed if they nerfed the miss chance on dodge roll.

Finally someone who actually understands what I'm asking for.

I'm not asking for a nerf or a change to dodge roll in the slightest. It is one of the best things about PvP in ESO and I rely on it heavily.

jrkhan

Ezareth wrote: »

Second, *all* Champion regeneration passives need to be made additive like other resources of regeneration instead of being multiplicative.

And/Or they could nerf drinks a bit. Base regen values aren't that easy to come by, and as you say, all the % increases are only a big deal if your base is high enough.
I'm not a big fan of basing decisions around chugging tri-pots either.
A small % of players are both using drinks over food, and chugging pots.
If you can't perma roll without those things, then I think the core mechanics are okay, and the issue is with consumables.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

The Rise of 'The Rise of...' threads

nerf forum posters ability to post threads....

seriously guys, this is ridiculous, stop posting this crap

xaraan

I don't find my bosmer stam build much more survivable than my other characters in pvp simply b/c he can dodge roll more. Sure, I can avoid damage in some situations that my other characters cannot, but I also have zero self heals (haven't opened up the alliance war heal on him yet). You also do less and less damage the more stam regen/cost reduction you stack, so it's a trade off. If someone wants to build their character for running away, then more power to them. We had no trouble killing tons of dodge rollers just last night however, so it's not a guaranteed escape - bolt escape is much more effective for that, or dark cloak for magicka nightblades.

Cthalion

I could actually sustain/dodge roll much more BEFORE 1.6.

Now, to reach reach similar sustaining capabilities, I have to stack stam cost reduction/regen at the expense of damage, etc.