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1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback
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byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭A whole thread hijacked by one person...
You know - it is probably a complete coincidence, but having played MMOs pretty constantly since vanilla WoW, I have seen a lot come and go, and a lot of threads of critical analysis and complaints get hijacked the same way... it's like the lone gunman conspiracy theory.
It happens with amazing regularity!
Pppontus - you claim the rest of use need to listen to you because you are the best.
But Hodor are the best, and don't agree with you... as indeed the majority of Sorc players do not agree with you...
... so what 'logic' is there to your claims against the counter claims of an entire guild of the best and the majority of the rest?
If I were to entirely speculate, and apply the principles of Occam's Razor, it would be logical enough to conclude you do indeed work for Zenimax and are here to deliberately muddy the water...
... but just to reiterate, that would just be speculation, wouldn't it...1 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »A whole thread hijacked by one person...
You know - it is probably a complete coincidence, but having played MMOs pretty constantly since vanilla WoW, I have seen a lot come and go, and a lot of threads of critical analysis and complaints get hijacked the same way... it's like the lone gunman conspiracy theory.
It happens with amazing regularity!
Pppontus - you claim the rest of use need to listen to you because you are the best.
But Hodor are the best, and don't agree with you... as indeed the majority of Sorc players do not agree with you...
... so what 'logic' is there to your claims against the counter claims of an entire guild of the best and the majority of the rest?
If I were to entirely speculate, and apply the principles of Occam's Razor, it would be logical enough to conclude you do indeed work for Zenimax and are here to deliberately muddy the water...
... but just to reiterate, that would just be speculation, wouldn't it...
And initially when I responded to your thread I was trying to help you with your sustain issues which you clearly shouldn't have because it's not like sustain is hard in 1.6. Then I thought that I would be allowed to voice my opinions, but you know, same as always .. the "Sorc so bad"-club has monopoly on opinions and if you don't share their opinion and instead try to help them by posting builds, videos and testing stuff.. oh my god, that is like treason.
Funny enough ZOS also realises that Sorc Magicka DPS seem to be pretty balanced and want to wait until it's live to tweak it, incidentally the same thing I've been saying all along. Did you ever consider that just because a very loud group of people say that something is wrong or bad, doesn't necessarily mean it really is?0 -
GilGalad✭✭✭✭✭
Maybe you should listen to the players that can figure stuff out. Both me and a few of the hodor people have already figured out that Sorcs are:
1. Not nerfed
2. Very good right now
Just because everyone can't seem to figure it out, doesn't mean it isn't true. Obviously Zenimax knows this (thankfully) and won't completely destroy game balance by further buffs.
So a guild that makes raids with more than 50% DKs and no Sorcs at all has found out that Sorcs are fine. You just made my day!
You also dont have to care about sorcs - your best trial times are with your NB. I also havent found your sorc in the vet DSA top 100. I don't have the time to raid every week, I'm just helping out from time to time and I only finished vet DSA once (96 min), but i feel qualified enough to comment on your findings:
1. In trials no one cares about survivability. You have you can blame your healers when you die.
2. In trials a sorc will never be a healer or tank, since templars and DKs are way better for that and you are optimizing your group wherever you can.
3. Pure trial guilds don't care about how sorcs perform outside trials, doing quests, solo stuff, so all the things you need to get xp for champion points. Hodor people have their DKs for that.
4. Tell me some situation where you would prefer your sorc over any other class (you obviosly don't do it on live, so what has changed that you will do it after update 6)?
So yeah maybe Sorcs are fine for trials as DPS, but for nothing else. For a big part of the community this game is not only about trials, but dungeons quests and pvp. Not everyone wants to be limited to only one role, the magicka DPS. So please stop behaving like everyone else is a noob and start thinking outside of your trials box.
Have we ever had more than 50% DKs? I really don't think so. Does it matter which character has my best trial times? We still have 2 sorcs in our 8 minute AA, does it matter that me personally didn't play my Sorc then? If you want to know, the reason (one of) my NBs have most of my top times is because it's my newest character thus the one I've played most lately because it just hit VR14 like a month or two ago. New toys, y'know.
1. Yes, beside the point? I don't run any survivability on my Sorc on live anyway (power surge is better than crit surge).
2. I agree, and thus I also agreed with Gina's post that they need to look at those roles for the Sorc. I clearly said "Magicka Sorc" meaning Magicka DPS.
3. Yes, Hodor will always only take the absolute best of the best classes and if Sorc got boosted I'm sure they would all insta-reroll. Does that matter to the rest of the 99%? We've got top 10 spots and have never asked anyone to reroll to anything. If you play for #1 you always need FOTM.
4. I am actually playing my Sorc almost all the time in AA and HR now. In SO I most often tank so there it's my Templar (also my Templar naturally has my best time in SO because of that). I also would say I go 50/50 between Sorc or Stam NB for VDSA. Yesterday I took my Sorc in all 3 runs we did, because it's so much fun to play and I had the most DPS of the entire group in almost every single fight. Granted it wasn't our "core" group but still. Beat DKs and Stam NBs by 100-200 dps, and the rest by far more. That's also one of the main reasons I am so focused on my Sorcerer now, I love nothing more than beating people who say Sorcerers suck.. on a Sorcerer. I like being the perceived underdog
Anyway, I can't see how the class wouldn't function for questing or dungeons.. honestly, everything works for questing and dungeons atm so not sure how you will explain not being viable there..
Attitudes are created by the community and not by the developers or by any connection to reality. Of course people are going to reject things because they believe they are bad, because Hodor doesn't take Sorcs or whatever. I think you're in my guild even.. well, for us, if you do 1K+ on a Sorc which is fairly easy then you have a chance at the top 10 and we don't care enough about #1 to only use FOTM. If people want FOTM, be prepared to reroll every patch.
For the AA run: 1st negate for the fire attros, 2nd negate for the trashgroup just before the 1st boss. Then 2 negates for the 2nd boss, so you don't have to move. Maybe one negate when the mage hits 30%. In 1.6 you won't skip groups anymore and the negate on the 2nd boss is useless, so no sorcs needed for that.
The survivability compared to other classes is really bad - I made two videos about it, you should have seen them when you comment here. Sure you can do the samen things but its a lot harder on a sorc and requires both, more skills and more abilities on the skillbar. If you ever play a templar with puncturing sweep and blazing shield you know what i mean. You could make the same with the two other classes.
Why sorcs will have a hard stand in dungeons? Some examples (thundering presence on) from spindleclutch: Throwdagger 9k, Bow light attacks 3-4k, AOEs 1 or 2 hit, surge gives you about 1k HPS. Your tank cant take all aggro and your healer will have to heal a lot. Why take a sorc when a NB can do almost the same dmg even without the need of heals?
In 1.5 I can easily tank or heal with my sorc, so its a lot easier to find groups. In 1.6 it will be harder to find a group cause you are limited to the DD role. Additionally the sorc offers almost no utility to the group. This all has been discussed multiple times. If you don't understand it, then say so instead of saying that we are all wrong without bringing any arguments. Your only arguments was "Both me and a few of the hodor people have already figured". Nice one.
In your video the DPS values are pretty bad below 10k, so this is no viable build.Edited by GilGalad on 25 February 2015 12:152 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Maybe you should listen to the players that can figure stuff out. Both me and a few of the hodor people have already figured out that Sorcs are:
1. Not nerfed
2. Very good right now
Just because everyone can't seem to figure it out, doesn't mean it isn't true. Obviously Zenimax knows this (thankfully) and won't completely destroy game balance by further buffs.
So a guild that makes raids with more than 50% DKs and no Sorcs at all has found out that Sorcs are fine. You just made my day!
You also dont have to care about sorcs - your best trial times are with your NB. I also havent found your sorc in the vet DSA top 100. I don't have the time to raid every week, I'm just helping out from time to time and I only finished vet DSA once (96 min), but i feel qualified enough to comment on your findings:
1. In trials no one cares about survivability. You have you can blame your healers when you die.
2. In trials a sorc will never be a healer or tank, since templars and DKs are way better for that and you are optimizing your group wherever you can.
3. Pure trial guilds don't care about how sorcs perform outside trials, doing quests, solo stuff, so all the things you need to get xp for champion points. Hodor people have their DKs for that.
4. Tell me some situation where you would prefer your sorc over any other class (you obviosly don't do it on live, so what has changed that you will do it after update 6)?
So yeah maybe Sorcs are fine for trials as DPS, but for nothing else. For a big part of the community this game is not only about trials, but dungeons quests and pvp. Not everyone wants to be limited to only one role, the magicka DPS. So please stop behaving like everyone else is a noob and start thinking outside of your trials box.
Have we ever had more than 50% DKs? I really don't think so. Does it matter which character has my best trial times? We still have 2 sorcs in our 8 minute AA, does it matter that me personally didn't play my Sorc then? If you want to know, the reason (one of) my NBs have most of my top times is because it's my newest character thus the one I've played most lately because it just hit VR14 like a month or two ago. New toys, y'know.
1. Yes, beside the point? I don't run any survivability on my Sorc on live anyway (power surge is better than crit surge).
2. I agree, and thus I also agreed with Gina's post that they need to look at those roles for the Sorc. I clearly said "Magicka Sorc" meaning Magicka DPS.
3. Yes, Hodor will always only take the absolute best of the best classes and if Sorc got boosted I'm sure they would all insta-reroll. Does that matter to the rest of the 99%? We've got top 10 spots and have never asked anyone to reroll to anything. If you play for #1 you always need FOTM.
4. I am actually playing my Sorc almost all the time in AA and HR now. In SO I most often tank so there it's my Templar (also my Templar naturally has my best time in SO because of that). I also would say I go 50/50 between Sorc or Stam NB for VDSA. Yesterday I took my Sorc in all 3 runs we did, because it's so much fun to play and I had the most DPS of the entire group in almost every single fight. Granted it wasn't our "core" group but still. Beat DKs and Stam NBs by 100-200 dps, and the rest by far more. That's also one of the main reasons I am so focused on my Sorcerer now, I love nothing more than beating people who say Sorcerers suck.. on a Sorcerer. I like being the perceived underdog
Anyway, I can't see how the class wouldn't function for questing or dungeons.. honestly, everything works for questing and dungeons atm so not sure how you will explain not being viable there..
Attitudes are created by the community and not by the developers or by any connection to reality. Of course people are going to reject things because they believe they are bad, because Hodor doesn't take Sorcs or whatever. I think you're in my guild even.. well, for us, if you do 1K+ on a Sorc which is fairly easy then you have a chance at the top 10 and we don't care enough about #1 to only use FOTM. If people want FOTM, be prepared to reroll every patch.
For the AA run: 1st negate for the fire attros, 2nd negate for the trashgroup just before the 1st boss. Then 2 negates for the 2nd boss, so you don't have to move. Maybe one negate when the mage hits 30%. In 1.6 you won't skip groups anymore and the negate on the 2nd boss is useless, so no sorcs needed for that.
The survivability compared to other classes is really bad - I made two videos about it, you should have seen them when you comment here. Sure you can do the samen things but its a lot harder on a sorc and requires both, more skills and more abilities on the skillbar. If you ever play a templar with puncturing sweep and blazing shield you know what i mean. You could make the same with the two other classes.
Why sorcs will have a hard stand in dungeons? Some examples (thundering presence on) from spindleclutch: Throwdagger 9k, Bow light attacks 3-4k, AOEs 1 or 2 hit, surge gives you about 1k HPS. Your tank cant take all aggro and your healer will have to heal a lot. Why take a sorc when a NB can do almost the same dmg even without the need of heals?
In 1.5 I can easily tank or heal with my sorc, so its a lot easier to find groups. In 1.6 it will be harder to find a group cause you are limited to the DD role. Additionally the sorc offers almost no utility to the group. This all has been discussed multiple times. If you don't understand it, then say so instead of saying that we are all wrong without bringing any arguments. Your only arguments was "Both me and a few of the hodor people have already figured". Nice one.
In your video the DPS values are pretty bad below 10k, so this is no viable guild.
No, you need one sorc with negate for the entire AA. Still we take more, hm. Anyway, for you saying my builds are not viable, here's a heart.
As soon as this patch actually drops and you get that you need to come to terms with changes, you'll see differently.
Then again, my post said MAGICKA SORCERERS MEANING MAGICKA DPS. I have not at any point in the history of ESO commented on tank/healer/stamina Sorcerers.
If you're really worried about survivability, look at the video I posted above in regards to survivability. It is definitely not nicer to be a DK in light armor than a Sorc. I would say Sorcs have by far the best survivability in LA thanks to that 13k+ shield.Edited by pppontus on 25 February 2015 12:020 -
GilGalad✭✭✭✭✭
Maybe you should listen to the players that can figure stuff out. Both me and a few of the hodor people have already figured out that Sorcs are:
1. Not nerfed
2. Very good right now
Just because everyone can't seem to figure it out, doesn't mean it isn't true. Obviously Zenimax knows this (thankfully) and won't completely destroy game balance by further buffs.
So a guild that makes raids with more than 50% DKs and no Sorcs at all has found out that Sorcs are fine. You just made my day!
You also dont have to care about sorcs - your best trial times are with your NB. I also havent found your sorc in the vet DSA top 100. I don't have the time to raid every week, I'm just helping out from time to time and I only finished vet DSA once (96 min), but i feel qualified enough to comment on your findings:
1. In trials no one cares about survivability. You have you can blame your healers when you die.
2. In trials a sorc will never be a healer or tank, since templars and DKs are way better for that and you are optimizing your group wherever you can.
3. Pure trial guilds don't care about how sorcs perform outside trials, doing quests, solo stuff, so all the things you need to get xp for champion points. Hodor people have their DKs for that.
4. Tell me some situation where you would prefer your sorc over any other class (you obviosly don't do it on live, so what has changed that you will do it after update 6)?
So yeah maybe Sorcs are fine for trials as DPS, but for nothing else. For a big part of the community this game is not only about trials, but dungeons quests and pvp. Not everyone wants to be limited to only one role, the magicka DPS. So please stop behaving like everyone else is a noob and start thinking outside of your trials box.
Have we ever had more than 50% DKs? I really don't think so. Does it matter which character has my best trial times? We still have 2 sorcs in our 8 minute AA, does it matter that me personally didn't play my Sorc then? If you want to know, the reason (one of) my NBs have most of my top times is because it's my newest character thus the one I've played most lately because it just hit VR14 like a month or two ago. New toys, y'know.
1. Yes, beside the point? I don't run any survivability on my Sorc on live anyway (power surge is better than crit surge).
2. I agree, and thus I also agreed with Gina's post that they need to look at those roles for the Sorc. I clearly said "Magicka Sorc" meaning Magicka DPS.
3. Yes, Hodor will always only take the absolute best of the best classes and if Sorc got boosted I'm sure they would all insta-reroll. Does that matter to the rest of the 99%? We've got top 10 spots and have never asked anyone to reroll to anything. If you play for #1 you always need FOTM.
4. I am actually playing my Sorc almost all the time in AA and HR now. In SO I most often tank so there it's my Templar (also my Templar naturally has my best time in SO because of that). I also would say I go 50/50 between Sorc or Stam NB for VDSA. Yesterday I took my Sorc in all 3 runs we did, because it's so much fun to play and I had the most DPS of the entire group in almost every single fight. Granted it wasn't our "core" group but still. Beat DKs and Stam NBs by 100-200 dps, and the rest by far more. That's also one of the main reasons I am so focused on my Sorcerer now, I love nothing more than beating people who say Sorcerers suck.. on a Sorcerer. I like being the perceived underdog
Anyway, I can't see how the class wouldn't function for questing or dungeons.. honestly, everything works for questing and dungeons atm so not sure how you will explain not being viable there..
Attitudes are created by the community and not by the developers or by any connection to reality. Of course people are going to reject things because they believe they are bad, because Hodor doesn't take Sorcs or whatever. I think you're in my guild even.. well, for us, if you do 1K+ on a Sorc which is fairly easy then you have a chance at the top 10 and we don't care enough about #1 to only use FOTM. If people want FOTM, be prepared to reroll every patch.
For the AA run: 1st negate for the fire attros, 2nd negate for the trashgroup just before the 1st boss. Then 2 negates for the 2nd boss, so you don't have to move. Maybe one negate when the mage hits 30%. In 1.6 you won't skip groups anymore and the negate on the 2nd boss is useless, so no sorcs needed for that.
The survivability compared to other classes is really bad - I made two videos about it, you should have seen them when you comment here. Sure you can do the samen things but its a lot harder on a sorc and requires both, more skills and more abilities on the skillbar. If you ever play a templar with puncturing sweep and blazing shield you know what i mean. You could make the same with the two other classes.
Why sorcs will have a hard stand in dungeons? Some examples (thundering presence on) from spindleclutch: Throwdagger 9k, Bow light attacks 3-4k, AOEs 1 or 2 hit, surge gives you about 1k HPS. Your tank cant take all aggro and your healer will have to heal a lot. Why take a sorc when a NB can do almost the same dmg even without the need of heals?
In 1.5 I can easily tank or heal with my sorc, so its a lot easier to find groups. In 1.6 it will be harder to find a group cause you are limited to the DD role. Additionally the sorc offers almost no utility to the group. This all has been discussed multiple times. If you don't understand it, then say so instead of saying that we are all wrong without bringing any arguments. Your only arguments was "Both me and a few of the hodor people have already figured". Nice one.
In your video the DPS values are pretty bad below 10k, so this is no viable guild.
No, you need one sorc with negate for the entire AA. Still we take more, hm. Anyway, for you saying my builds are not viable, here's a heart. As soon as this patch actually drops and you get that you need to come to terms with changes, you'll see differently.
Then again, my post said MAGICKA SORCERERS MEANING MAGICKA DPS. I have not at any point in the history of ESO commented on tank/healer/stamina Sorcerers.
If you're really worried about survivability, look at the video I posted above in regards to survivability. It is definitely not nicer to be a DK in light armor than a Sorc. I would say Sorcs have by far the best survivability in LA thanks to that 13k+ shield.
This boss is so easy on the sorc because he is stuned half of the time. Try this one here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY7LOQxCR4U
No CP, no ultimate. Good luck.3 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Maybe you should listen to the players that can figure stuff out. Both me and a few of the hodor people have already figured out that Sorcs are:
1. Not nerfed
2. Very good right now
Just because everyone can't seem to figure it out, doesn't mean it isn't true. Obviously Zenimax knows this (thankfully) and won't completely destroy game balance by further buffs.
So a guild that makes raids with more than 50% DKs and no Sorcs at all has found out that Sorcs are fine. You just made my day!
You also dont have to care about sorcs - your best trial times are with your NB. I also havent found your sorc in the vet DSA top 100. I don't have the time to raid every week, I'm just helping out from time to time and I only finished vet DSA once (96 min), but i feel qualified enough to comment on your findings:
1. In trials no one cares about survivability. You have you can blame your healers when you die.
2. In trials a sorc will never be a healer or tank, since templars and DKs are way better for that and you are optimizing your group wherever you can.
3. Pure trial guilds don't care about how sorcs perform outside trials, doing quests, solo stuff, so all the things you need to get xp for champion points. Hodor people have their DKs for that.
4. Tell me some situation where you would prefer your sorc over any other class (you obviosly don't do it on live, so what has changed that you will do it after update 6)?
So yeah maybe Sorcs are fine for trials as DPS, but for nothing else. For a big part of the community this game is not only about trials, but dungeons quests and pvp. Not everyone wants to be limited to only one role, the magicka DPS. So please stop behaving like everyone else is a noob and start thinking outside of your trials box.
Have we ever had more than 50% DKs? I really don't think so. Does it matter which character has my best trial times? We still have 2 sorcs in our 8 minute AA, does it matter that me personally didn't play my Sorc then? If you want to know, the reason (one of) my NBs have most of my top times is because it's my newest character thus the one I've played most lately because it just hit VR14 like a month or two ago. New toys, y'know.
1. Yes, beside the point? I don't run any survivability on my Sorc on live anyway (power surge is better than crit surge).
2. I agree, and thus I also agreed with Gina's post that they need to look at those roles for the Sorc. I clearly said "Magicka Sorc" meaning Magicka DPS.
3. Yes, Hodor will always only take the absolute best of the best classes and if Sorc got boosted I'm sure they would all insta-reroll. Does that matter to the rest of the 99%? We've got top 10 spots and have never asked anyone to reroll to anything. If you play for #1 you always need FOTM.
4. I am actually playing my Sorc almost all the time in AA and HR now. In SO I most often tank so there it's my Templar (also my Templar naturally has my best time in SO because of that). I also would say I go 50/50 between Sorc or Stam NB for VDSA. Yesterday I took my Sorc in all 3 runs we did, because it's so much fun to play and I had the most DPS of the entire group in almost every single fight. Granted it wasn't our "core" group but still. Beat DKs and Stam NBs by 100-200 dps, and the rest by far more. That's also one of the main reasons I am so focused on my Sorcerer now, I love nothing more than beating people who say Sorcerers suck.. on a Sorcerer. I like being the perceived underdog
Anyway, I can't see how the class wouldn't function for questing or dungeons.. honestly, everything works for questing and dungeons atm so not sure how you will explain not being viable there..
Attitudes are created by the community and not by the developers or by any connection to reality. Of course people are going to reject things because they believe they are bad, because Hodor doesn't take Sorcs or whatever. I think you're in my guild even.. well, for us, if you do 1K+ on a Sorc which is fairly easy then you have a chance at the top 10 and we don't care enough about #1 to only use FOTM. If people want FOTM, be prepared to reroll every patch.
For the AA run: 1st negate for the fire attros, 2nd negate for the trashgroup just before the 1st boss. Then 2 negates for the 2nd boss, so you don't have to move. Maybe one negate when the mage hits 30%. In 1.6 you won't skip groups anymore and the negate on the 2nd boss is useless, so no sorcs needed for that.
The survivability compared to other classes is really bad - I made two videos about it, you should have seen them when you comment here. Sure you can do the samen things but its a lot harder on a sorc and requires both, more skills and more abilities on the skillbar. If you ever play a templar with puncturing sweep and blazing shield you know what i mean. You could make the same with the two other classes.
Why sorcs will have a hard stand in dungeons? Some examples (thundering presence on) from spindleclutch: Throwdagger 9k, Bow light attacks 3-4k, AOEs 1 or 2 hit, surge gives you about 1k HPS. Your tank cant take all aggro and your healer will have to heal a lot. Why take a sorc when a NB can do almost the same dmg even without the need of heals?
In 1.5 I can easily tank or heal with my sorc, so its a lot easier to find groups. In 1.6 it will be harder to find a group cause you are limited to the DD role. Additionally the sorc offers almost no utility to the group. This all has been discussed multiple times. If you don't understand it, then say so instead of saying that we are all wrong without bringing any arguments. Your only arguments was "Both me and a few of the hodor people have already figured". Nice one.
In your video the DPS values are pretty bad below 10k, so this is no viable guild.
No, you need one sorc with negate for the entire AA. Still we take more, hm. Anyway, for you saying my builds are not viable, here's a heart. As soon as this patch actually drops and you get that you need to come to terms with changes, you'll see differently.
Then again, my post said MAGICKA SORCERERS MEANING MAGICKA DPS. I have not at any point in the history of ESO commented on tank/healer/stamina Sorcerers.
If you're really worried about survivability, look at the video I posted above in regards to survivability. It is definitely not nicer to be a DK in light armor than a Sorc. I would say Sorcs have by far the best survivability in LA thanks to that 13k+ shield.
This boss is so easy on the sorc because he is stuned half of the time. Try this one here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY7LOQxCR4U
No CP, no ultimate. Good luck.
5... 4.... 3.... 2... 1... till pppontus pops in claiming sorcs are perfectly fine cause he manages <8k dps in a prolnged fight while every other class does 14k++ equally bad played.
the problem in regard of ae is the inability of ZOS to grow some balls and equalize skill-ae-healing. i´ve no clue what is so difficult for them to install a healcap per sec to surge that resambles puncturing sweeps/sap essence vs 6 targets, and in that step cap them as well at that lvl, while getting rid of that lockout timer.
to be more precise keep surge heal every second once, but it tracks within that 1 sec all aperaing crits and apply those heals after one sec with the given cap active.spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"1 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not that I really have time with it, but because you ask so nicely..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqAUP0Ox_Ak 1 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭3..2..1 'til someone changes the subject to a completely different aspect of Magicka Sorcerers.
I don't think this discussion matters anymore, I'm happy ZOS decided to wait it out before buffing Magicka as I'm completely sure that in a month everyone will have figured out that it wasn't as bad as it sounds, they just needed to adjust their playstyle a bit.
Just like everyone else with every class and every build that has ever existed in TESO needs to adjust for 1.6.
Then again, to repeat myself for the 4th or so time (because I know that if I don't, someone will come shouting at me about it) Sorc tanks/healers and Stamina DPS still deserve more attention as soon as possible.0 -
Sumpfheini✭✭✭I actually tested the clannfear heal quite a bit on pts. My first thought was: Wow that's op!
After more testing I have to say it depends: I think it will be op with certain builds/specs but overall it has less synergy as for example the DK heal or the templar shield.
As a magicka heavy sorc with some sets (especially Necropotence) it will most likely be too strong. It is being offset by your very low armor (which is more noticeable in 1.6, so 35% can get blastet through quite fast). Yet with enough magicka-regen/cost-reduction and reasonable high health it is very easy to indefinetly heal yourself.
For everyone else, the costs (and the clunkieness ofc), even with rebate are not to underestimate. I tired it with 5/2 heavy-light armor, full seducer/warlock, so quite a lot of magick focus yet reasonable health and defense and yes my survivability is great. But still you lose mana rather quickly and can burn through it fast in high pressure situation, nowhere near the survivability of green blood + scales. And the downside ofcourse is your damage output with such a build is very low (we don't really have melee magick-build synergy)...a typical and quite balanced tank actually.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well. DPS has not been a problem since 1.6.1. All changes after that hurt more than they helped in my opinion.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
GilGalad✭✭✭✭✭Not that I really have time with it, but because you ask so nicely..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqAUP0Ox_Ak
So that's how you compare classes and builds? Do a diffentpull with different (and less) mobs and say everything is fine?
And lets say you are right. Sorcs would have the best survivability in light armor, better than Templars with Blazing Shield and Puncturing Sweep (up to 5.000 HPS), better than NBs with sap essence and better than DKs with inhale. Then they are the best with the worst armor. Medium Armor provides 3 times more armor and spellresistance + the momentum heal. Guess which class is the worst in medium armor, because of no real stamina morphs?
Right the Sorcerer.
You showed in an impressive way that you are not able to make serious tests and comparisons. No one should listen to you until you start making real test instead of this pseudo tests.
Btw. i have never said that Sorc magicka DPS is bad. I said its just to low to make up for the lack of survivability and mostly the lack of utility.2 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »A whole thread hijacked by one person...
You know - it is probably a complete coincidence, but having played MMOs pretty constantly since vanilla WoW, I have seen a lot come and go, and a lot of threads of critical analysis and complaints get hijacked the same way... it's like the lone gunman conspiracy theory.
It happens with amazing regularity!
Pppontus - you claim the rest of use need to listen to you because you are the best.
But Hodor are the best, and don't agree with you... as indeed the majority of Sorc players do not agree with you...
... so what 'logic' is there to your claims against the counter claims of an entire guild of the best and the majority of the rest?
If I were to entirely speculate, and apply the principles of Occam's Razor, it would be logical enough to conclude you do indeed work for Zenimax and are here to deliberately muddy the water...
... but just to reiterate, that would just be speculation, wouldn't it...
And initially when I responded to your thread I was trying to help you with your sustain issues which you clearly shouldn't have because it's not like sustain is hard in 1.6. Then I thought that I would be allowed to voice my opinions, but you know, same as always .. the "Sorc so bad"-club has monopoly on opinions and if you don't share their opinion and instead try to help them by posting builds, videos and testing stuff.. oh my god, that is like treason.
Funny enough ZOS also realises that Sorc Magicka DPS seem to be pretty balanced and want to wait until it's live to tweak it, incidentally the same thing I've been saying all along. Did you ever consider that just because a very loud group of people say that something is wrong or bad, doesn't necessarily mean it really is?
And thus making you the only one who's right... right?
As for ZOS realising anything - they didn't realise DK/Vamps would be mega-uber in PvP. They didn't realise the DK is OP even without being an Edward. They didn't realise a bunch of obvious stuff they got told about.. but this one particular point is the exception?
Your opinions aren't a problem pppontus, it's the lack of evidential backup I have a problem with, and the fact after having asked you repeatedly to provide some, you don't bother to provide it, instead insisting you should be listened to simply because you are 'better' than we are.
I went as far as too state that in the righours of a debate you would lose due to your lack of evidence to try too make myself clear. But you keep banging on about your personal performance in very specific narrow circumstances and on the one metric of non-comparative DPS which doesn't tackle most of the issues raised, nor the pretty unique nature of your personal experience.
So instead of saying, "OK - here's your evidence.. and you can see how it invalidates your argument and that of Gil.Galad" you complain we aren't appreciative of your efforts to help us, and as members of a loud group we don't have it right... by what, innevitable mob stupidity, ZOS fiat, random chance, hidden design that only you can see...eh?
So I'll ask you again - give us the evidence Pppontus. You've got the time, clearly...
Gil.Galad gave us his evidence - in spades, and ZOS even acknowleged how useful it was, how well structured.
My anecdotal evidence and personal experience agree with his evidence almost 100%.
But you'd have me believe that's coincidence.
I think it is you who needs assisance - in understanding the principles by which evidence is presented and an argument built upon it...
But let me apply Occam's Razor again - ZOS are saying Sorcs are fine, I would postulate, because they don't want to admit they are wrong due to having ignored or missed the fact, not done anything about it and having run out of time to fix it due to their release schedules for the next few months.
Moreover they are saying they will keep a close eye on the class to set up backtracking later and putting in some fixes they already know are needed. Why else congratulate Gil.Galad on excellent feedback and then fail to act on any of it?
Method, motive, and lack of opportunity - it's all right there.Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on 25 February 2015 13:311 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not that I really have time with it, but because you ask so nicely..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqAUP0Ox_Ak
So that's how you compare classes and builds? Do a diffentpull with different (and less) mobs and say everything is fine?
And lets say you are right. Sorcs would have the best survivability in light armor, better than Templars with Blazing Shield and Puncturing Sweep (up to 5.000 HPS), better than NBs with sap essence and better than DKs with inhale. Then they are the best with the worst armor. Medium Armor provides 3 times more armor and spellresistance + the momentum heal. Guess which class is the worst in medium armor, because of no real stamina morphs?
Right the Sorcerer.
You showed in an impressive way that you are not able to make serious tests and comparisons. No one should listen to you until you start making real test instead of this pseudo tests.
Btw. i have never said that Sorc magicka DPS is bad. I said its just to low to make up for the lack of survivability and mostly the lack of utility.
I honestly don't know much about Spellscar so I'm sorry if I pulled the wrong mobs?? I did 4 pulls because that's what I could see in your video.. but what do I know? Then again, at the moment we are comparing things just for *** and giggles in my opinion. None of this has any relevance in a class debate. Or how "even" does it need to be? Does it need to take the same amount of seconds and the same amount of clicks on the same amount of different skills between all classes.. or? I couldn't care less whether you kill them in 45 seconds and I kill them in 56 seconds, the important thing is that they die.. right? And endgame DPS is a completely different thing where I have also shown it's good, and you can believe whatever the hell you want, but yeah.
Remember man: you were the one who asked me to do this test of absolutely nothing important whatsoever using completely different gear setups etc. which will make a LOT more difference than hwat mob is pulled I'm sure
Now that's a *** test..
But I comply, again and again, try to tell people that the world has not yet ended.. meh. At this point I might as well just say Sorcerers are broken because that's the only opinion that you're allowed to have on the forums. I would never have done this if it wasn't for the fact that I've received countless PMs on the forums, in game and on TF (from sorverers) thanking me for pointing out actual facts and evidence for a *** change.
Cya in 1.6.5 where Magicka Sorcs will continue to be like they are now. Sorc love.byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »A whole thread hijacked by one person...
You know - it is probably a complete coincidence, but having played MMOs pretty constantly since vanilla WoW, I have seen a lot come and go, and a lot of threads of critical analysis and complaints get hijacked the same way... it's like the lone gunman conspiracy theory.
It happens with amazing regularity!
Pppontus - you claim the rest of use need to listen to you because you are the best.
But Hodor are the best, and don't agree with you... as indeed the majority of Sorc players do not agree with you...
... so what 'logic' is there to your claims against the counter claims of an entire guild of the best and the majority of the rest?
If I were to entirely speculate, and apply the principles of Occam's Razor, it would be logical enough to conclude you do indeed work for Zenimax and are here to deliberately muddy the water...
... but just to reiterate, that would just be speculation, wouldn't it...
And initially when I responded to your thread I was trying to help you with your sustain issues which you clearly shouldn't have because it's not like sustain is hard in 1.6. Then I thought that I would be allowed to voice my opinions, but you know, same as always .. the "Sorc so bad"-club has monopoly on opinions and if you don't share their opinion and instead try to help them by posting builds, videos and testing stuff.. oh my god, that is like treason.
Funny enough ZOS also realises that Sorc Magicka DPS seem to be pretty balanced and want to wait until it's live to tweak it, incidentally the same thing I've been saying all along. Did you ever consider that just because a very loud group of people say that something is wrong or bad, doesn't necessarily mean it really is?
And thus making you the only one who's right... right?
As for ZOS realising anything - they didn't realise DK/Vamps would be mega-uber in PvP. They didn't realise the DK is OP even without being an Edward. They didn't realise a bunch of obvious stuff they got told about.. but this one particular point is the exception?
Your opinions aren't a problem pppontus, it's the lack of evidential backup I have a problem with, and the fact after having asked you repeatedly to provide some, you don't bother too provide it, instead insisting yoou should be listened to simply because you are better than we are.
I went as far as too state that in the righours of a debate you would lose due to your lack of evidence to try too make myself clear. But you keep banging on about your personal performance in very specific narrow circumstances and on the one metric of DPS which doesn't tackle most of the issues raised, nor the pretty unique nature of your personal experience.
So instead of saying, "OK - here's your evidence.. and you can see how it invalidates your argument and that of Gil.Galad" you complain we aren't appreciative of your efforts to help us, and as members of a loud group we don't have it right... by what, innevitable mob stupidity, ZOS fiat, random chance, hidden design that only you can see..?
So I'll ask you again - give us the evidence Pppontus. You've got the time, clearly...
Gil.Galad gave us his evidence - in spades, and ZOS even acknowleged how useful it was, how well structured.
My anecdotal evidence and personal experience agree with his evidence almost 100%.
But you'd have me believe that's coincidence.
I think it is you who needs assisance - in understanding the principles by which evidence is presented and an argument built upon it...
But let me apply Occam's Razor again - ZOS are saying Sorcs are fine, I would postulate, because they don't want to admit they are wrong due to having ignored or missed the fact, not done anything about it and having run out of time to fix it due to their release schedules for the next few months.
Moreover they are saying they will keep a close eye on the class to set up backtracking later and putting in some fixes they already know are needed. Why else congratulate Gil.Galad on excellent feedback and then fail to act on any of it?
Method, motive, and lack of opportunity - it's all right there.
Jeez, I'm sorry but the way you type freak me out.. I can't read it properly. Anyway, my evidence is in my videos that I've posted time and time again of ST dps, soloing, soloing spell scar etc. If you don't want to consider that evidence, then *** this because I don't have anything to gain from you understanding this. My main motivating factor is the PMs I get from people who realise what you don't, asking for advice and/or thanking me for what I do. The motivation to deal with people who question everything you do like I wouldn't want Sorcerers to be a good class? None. IDGAF.Edited by pppontus on 25 February 2015 13:310 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Sumpfheini wrote: »I actually tested the clannfear heal quite a bit on pts. My first thought was: Wow that's op!
After more testing I have to say it depends: I think it will be op with certain builds/specs but overall it has less synergy as for example the DK heal or the templar shield.
As a magicka heavy sorc with some sets (especially Necropotence) it will most likely be too strong. It is being offset by your very low armor (which is more noticeable in 1.6, so 35% can get blastet through quite fast). Yet with enough magicka-regen/cost-reduction and reasonable high health it is very easy to indefinetly heal yourself.
For everyone else, the costs (and the clunkieness ofc), even with rebate are not to underestimate. I tired it with 5/2 heavy-light armor, full seducer/warlock, so quite a lot of magick focus yet reasonable health and defense and yes my survivability is great. But still you lose mana rather quickly and can burn through it fast in high pressure situation, nowhere near the survivability of green blood + scales. And the downside ofcourse is your damage output with such a build is very low (we don't really have melee magick-build synergy)...a typical and quite balanced tank actually.
Take a step back and ask yourself if they really meant a dps/tanky pet to be repeatedly summoned and unsummoned simply to provide a heal...
... then take a big pinch of salt and add it to everything esle that looks weird that they claim was 'by design' and everything else they say 'is fine' which isn't.Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on 25 February 2015 13:501 -
ppontus I already got into a few disagreements on another sorc related post because you keep saying sorcs are the best and all our skills are great but fail to provide any meaningful arguments to support your illusory claims.
If you have nothing interesting to add to the debate could you please refrain from diluting the efforts some of well intended people are making to give sorcs a viable place on this game?
Your biased statements are neither helping nor welcome. Please stop hijacking every other sorc post to make us all know how great you are at this game.
4 -
Inubis✭✭✭Ugh, I hate the forums. I feel like it is just a bunch of bickering children claiming this, disputing that... without producing any solid evidence. This is not a jab at the OP I think his post was very well written.
I came to 1.6 with high hopes but was unsure of what the new DPS standard would be. When I saw 6k with a CS rotation I was happy as I could hit 9k just spamming cFrags. To me this meant the CS rotation was dead which brought me much joy because it's super boring. My DK friends joined and their CS rotation was not much better and it was an amazing day! Finally the CS rotation can be retired.
A few hours later, some adjustments here and there I could maybe get my DPS to spike to 13k (thats a huge maybe). Theory crafting, designing new builds and making the game mechanics more interesting is what I live for so I embrace the challenge and on a side note I actually like sorcs being more difficult to figure out and a rotation being more complex because it adds a certian level of "required skill" to those of us who roll sorcs and are able to keep up.
Here is where it all took a sad turn. My DK friends respec'ed and pushed stam builds which to be fair is something they have wanted to do this entire time. Their DPS off the bat is 17k-21k with very little effort and here is the whole point of this post... THERE IS PROOF. Watch a video! there are several of them on youtube. I have not seen or met a single sorc who can get anywhere NEAR as much sustained single target DPS. Even these videos pppontus show a sorc getting 13k-14k AOE DPS... like what? Are you kidding me? This shows absolutely nothing. Sure that AOE is fine in craglorn and anyone with half a brain can spec any class for survivability and *** DEEPS I mean when your just killing mobs in Craglorn its no big deal. But when your clinched for time in a raid and stuff needs to be downed for example on a boss with an enrage/DPS check what the hell does your 14k AOE Deeps and Survivability count for? The answer! Jack SQUAT! I am not trying to be mean or put you down... its just a solid fact.
So if people really want to "win the battle" of stam builds needing more attention than magicka please let me see a freaking 20k MAGICKA BASED SINGLE TARGET DPS BUILD!!!! I literally would love it if you could produce something and shut up right here right now. Like if you could make a fool out of me and slap me in the face with solid documented evidence of a Sorc putting out that deeps I wont even be upset I will actually want to find you and shake your hand. Because I have been testing for DAYS, I have been looking for other sorcs who have surpassed me for DAYS. Unlike others who say "I am gonna leave ESO if ZO dosnt fix this" as some kind of empty threat I say... ZOS I want to keep playing this game, I dont want to leave this game... I am looking for ANY glimmer of hope to keep playing please give it to me. Obviously I am losing it a bit and going on a huge rant but ya know it happens.6 -
Lied✭✭✭
Every post in this thread is biased and the majority of them aren't helpful in any way. Gil is probably the only person I'd expect to take the high ground here in terms of posting constructive rebuttals instead of just more angry whining.nun_nonrb19_ESO wrote: »Your biased statements are neither helping nor welcome.1 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭nun_nonrb19_ESO wrote: »ppontus I already got into a few disagreements on another sorc related post because you keep saying sorcs are the best and all our skills are great but fail to provide any meaningful arguments to support your illusory claims.
If you have nothing interesting to add to the debate could you please refrain from diluting the efforts some of well intended people are making to give sorcs a viable place on this game?
Your biased statements are neither helping nor welcome. Please stop hijacking every other sorc post to make us all know how great you are at this game.
Right, because you decide who is allowed to post. Good on ya!
"give sorcs a viable place in this game"
Let me give you a because I'm sure as hell not going to repeat all my testing etc. again.Ugh, I hate the forums. I feel like it is just a bunch of bickering children claiming this, disputing that... without producing any solid evidence. This is not a jab at the OP I think his post was very well written.
I came to 1.6 with high hopes but was unsure of what the new DPS standard would be. When I saw 6k with a CS rotation I was happy as I could hit 9k just spamming cFrags. To me this meant the CS rotation was dead which brought me much joy because it's super boring. My DK friends joined and their CS rotation was not much better and it was an amazing day! Finally the CS rotation can be retired.
A few hours later, some adjustments here and there I could maybe get my DPS to spike to 13k (thats a huge maybe). Theory crafting, designing new builds and making the game mechanics more interesting is what I live for so I embrace the challenge and on a side note I actually like sorcs being more difficult to figure out and a rotation being more complex because it adds a certian level of "required skill" to those of us who roll sorcs and are able to keep up.
Here is where it all took a sad turn. My DK friends respec'ed and pushed stam builds which to be fair is something they have wanted to do this entire time. Their DPS off the bat is 17k-21k with very little effort and here is the whole point of this post... THERE IS PROOF. Watch a video! there are several of them on youtube. I have not seen or met a single sorc who can get anywhere NEAR as much sustained single target DPS. Even these videos pppontus show a sorc getting 13k-14k AOE DPS... like what? Are you kidding me? This shows absolutely nothing. Sure that AOE is fine in craglorn and anyone with half a brain can spec any class for survivability and *** DEEPS I mean when your just killing mobs in Craglorn its no big deal. But when your clinched for time in a raid and stuff needs to be downed for example on a boss with an enrage/DPS check what the hell does your 14k AOE Deeps and Survivability count for? The answer! Jack SQUAT! I am not trying to be mean or put you down... its just a solid fact.
So if people really want to "win the battle" of stam builds needing more attention than magicka please let me see a freaking 20k MAGICKA BASED SINGLE TARGET DPS BUILD!!!! I literally would love it if you could produce something and shut up right here right now. Like if you could make a fool out of me and slap me in the face with solid documented evidence of a Sorc putting out that deeps I wont even be upset I will actually want to find you and shake your hand. Because I have been testing for DAYS, I have been looking for other sorcs who have surpassed me for DAYS. Unlike others who say "I am gonna leave ESO if ZO dosnt fix this" as some kind of empty threat I say... ZOS I want to keep playing this game, I dont want to leave this game... I am looking for ANY glimmer of hope to keep playing please give it to me. Obviously I am losing it a bit and going on a huge rant but ya know it happens.
For real? I definitely have NOT seen that. I've seen one Stam DK claim to do 15K with 2H. It seems 2H is quite OP atm, but that's an issue with 2H and every class can do like 15K just wrecking blow.. if that is the issue I can support it, because that's just silly. Doesn't make other builds less viable really, just atm anyone not having a 2H sword is comparably gimped..
+ I'll repeat something I always say when people bring up DKs: never compare your burst DPS to a DK because if he has Standard of Might he'll boost all his DPS by 20% for 20 seconds = OP, problem is now he can only do that for 20 secs out of 83 per fight. So the fight needs to be 80 secs + to give accurate results with SOM.Edited by pppontus on 25 February 2015 14:030 -
Inubis✭✭✭For real? I definitely have NOT seen that. I've seen one Stam DK claim to do 15K with 2H. It seems 2H is quite OP atm, but that's an issue with 2H and every class can do like 15K just wrecking blow.. if that is the issue I can support it, because that's just silly. Doesn't make other builds less viable really, just atm anyone not having a 2H sword is comparably gimped..
+ I'll repeat something I always say when people bring up DKs: never compare your burst DPS to a DK because if he has Standard of Might he'll boost all his DPS by 20% for 20 seconds = OP, problem is now he can only do that for 20 secs out of 83 per fight. So the fight needs to be 80 secs + to give accurate results with SOM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBwEoj14_68
^^ Just because I am not in a lazy mood.
He makes adjusments after the first gargoyel fight, which he ends at 16k (and is his low DPS which still out does me) then comes back and does 20k (make note his DPS counter moves from top left to under his resource bars in his second attempt).
There are also claims of a 30k AOE... I am not saying thats a fact because I havnt seen a video confirming it but I am leaning towards beliving it.
Edited by Inubis on 25 February 2015 14:101 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Not that I really have time with it, but because you ask so nicely..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqAUP0Ox_Ak
So that's how you compare classes and builds? Do a diffentpull with different (and less) mobs and say everything is fine?
And lets say you are right. Sorcs would have the best survivability in light armor, better than Templars with Blazing Shield and Puncturing Sweep (up to 5.000 HPS), better than NBs with sap essence and better than DKs with inhale. Then they are the best with the worst armor. Medium Armor provides 3 times more armor and spellresistance + the momentum heal. Guess which class is the worst in medium armor, because of no real stamina morphs?
Right the Sorcerer.
You showed in an impressive way that you are not able to make serious tests and comparisons. No one should listen to you until you start making real test instead of this pseudo tests.
Btw. i have never said that Sorc magicka DPS is bad. I said its just to low to make up for the lack of survivability and mostly the lack of utility.
I honestly don't know much about Spellscar so I'm sorry if I pulled the wrong mobs?? I did 4 pulls because that's what I could see in your video.. but what do I know? Then again, at the moment we are comparing things just for *** and giggles in my opinion. None of this has any relevance in a class debate. Or how "even" does it need to be? Does it need to take the same amount of seconds and the same amount of clicks on the same amount of different skills between all classes.. or? I couldn't care less whether you kill them in 45 seconds and I kill them in 56 seconds, the important thing is that they die.. right? And endgame DPS is a completely different thing where I have also shown it's good, and you can believe whatever the hell you want, but yeah.
Remember man: you were the one who asked me to do this test of absolutely nothing important whatsoever using completely different gear setups etc. which will make a LOT more difference than hwat mob is pulled I'm sure Now that's a *** test..
But I comply, again and again, try to tell people that the world has not yet ended.. meh. At this point I might as well just say Sorcerers are broken because that's the only opinion that you're allowed to have on the forums. I would never have done this if it wasn't for the fact that I've received countless PMs on the forums, in game and on TF (from sorverers) thanking me for pointing out actual facts and evidence for a *** change.
Cya in 1.6.5 where Magicka Sorcs will continue to be like they are now. Sorc love.byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »A whole thread hijacked by one person...
You know - it is probably a complete coincidence, but having played MMOs pretty constantly since vanilla WoW, I have seen a lot come and go, and a lot of threads of critical analysis and complaints get hijacked the same way... it's like the lone gunman conspiracy theory.
It happens with amazing regularity!
Pppontus - you claim the rest of use need to listen to you because you are the best.
But Hodor are the best, and don't agree with you... as indeed the majority of Sorc players do not agree with you...
... so what 'logic' is there to your claims against the counter claims of an entire guild of the best and the majority of the rest?
If I were to entirely speculate, and apply the principles of Occam's Razor, it would be logical enough to conclude you do indeed work for Zenimax and are here to deliberately muddy the water...
... but just to reiterate, that would just be speculation, wouldn't it...
And initially when I responded to your thread I was trying to help you with your sustain issues which you clearly shouldn't have because it's not like sustain is hard in 1.6. Then I thought that I would be allowed to voice my opinions, but you know, same as always .. the "Sorc so bad"-club has monopoly on opinions and if you don't share their opinion and instead try to help them by posting builds, videos and testing stuff.. oh my god, that is like treason.
Funny enough ZOS also realises that Sorc Magicka DPS seem to be pretty balanced and want to wait until it's live to tweak it, incidentally the same thing I've been saying all along. Did you ever consider that just because a very loud group of people say that something is wrong or bad, doesn't necessarily mean it really is?
And thus making you the only one who's right... right?
As for ZOS realising anything - they didn't realise DK/Vamps would be mega-uber in PvP. They didn't realise the DK is OP even without being an Edward. They didn't realise a bunch of obvious stuff they got told about.. but this one particular point is the exception?
Your opinions aren't a problem pppontus, it's the lack of evidential backup I have a problem with, and the fact after having asked you repeatedly to provide some, you don't bother too provide it, instead insisting yoou should be listened to simply because you are better than we are.
I went as far as too state that in the righours of a debate you would lose due to your lack of evidence to try too make myself clear. But you keep banging on about your personal performance in very specific narrow circumstances and on the one metric of DPS which doesn't tackle most of the issues raised, nor the pretty unique nature of your personal experience.
So instead of saying, "OK - here's your evidence.. and you can see how it invalidates your argument and that of Gil.Galad" you complain we aren't appreciative of your efforts to help us, and as members of a loud group we don't have it right... by what, innevitable mob stupidity, ZOS fiat, random chance, hidden design that only you can see..?
So I'll ask you again - give us the evidence Pppontus. You've got the time, clearly...
Gil.Galad gave us his evidence - in spades, and ZOS even acknowleged how useful it was, how well structured.
My anecdotal evidence and personal experience agree with his evidence almost 100%.
But you'd have me believe that's coincidence.
I think it is you who needs assisance - in understanding the principles by which evidence is presented and an argument built upon it...
But let me apply Occam's Razor again - ZOS are saying Sorcs are fine, I would postulate, because they don't want to admit they are wrong due to having ignored or missed the fact, not done anything about it and having run out of time to fix it due to their release schedules for the next few months.
Moreover they are saying they will keep a close eye on the class to set up backtracking later and putting in some fixes they already know are needed. Why else congratulate Gil.Galad on excellent feedback and then fail to act on any of it?
Method, motive, and lack of opportunity - it's all right there.
Jeez, I'm sorry but the way you type freak me out.. I can't read it properly. Anyway, my evidence is in my videos that I've posted time and time again of ST dps, soloing, soloing spell scar etc. If you don't want to consider that evidence, then *** this because I don't have anything to gain from you understanding this. My main motivating factor is the PMs I get from people who realise what you don't, asking for advice and/or thanking me for what I do. The motivation to deal with people who question everything you do like I wouldn't want Sorcerers to be a good class? None. IDGAF.
To summarise;- You don't understand the way I type.
- You don't want to provide the class-comparative evidence that has been asked for.
- You have time for those who come to you for advice on how to play.
- You don't have time for critics of the class, or your wisdom in how to play it...
... except to repeatedly refute everything those critics claim to the contrary, no mattter how well argued or supported by evidence...
Edited by byrom101b16_ESO on 25 February 2015 14:151 - You don't understand the way I type.
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pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭For real? I definitely have NOT seen that. I've seen one Stam DK claim to do 15K with 2H. It seems 2H is quite OP atm, but that's an issue with 2H and every class can do like 15K just wrecking blow.. if that is the issue I can support it, because that's just silly. Doesn't make other builds less viable really, just atm anyone not having a 2H sword is comparably gimped..
+ I'll repeat something I always say when people bring up DKs: never compare your burst DPS to a DK because if he has Standard of Might he'll boost all his DPS by 20% for 20 seconds = OP, problem is now he can only do that for 20 secs out of 83 per fight. So the fight needs to be 80 secs + to give accurate results with SOM.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBwEoj14_68
^^ Just because I am not in a lazy mood.
Well, obviously we can instantly discount the tests on Nomeg as you never DPS test on undead. That's like DPS testing 101.
His results on Blood Spawn is impressive to say the least. Is there any info on CP used and such? I mean, I sure as hell can't do that DPS with my DK and my measly 70 CP, not a chance in hell. He could obviously just be 100x better than me at Stamina DPS, but .. it seems absolutely crazy imo. Either way, if that is the way it is then maybe certain Stam builds need nerfs to be brought in line with the rest of the game. Because my NB DW, NB Magicka, Sorc Magicka and DK Magicka all seem to be pretty even otherwise and compares well to the Stam/Mag Templars I've seen and well, anything apart from that video....
Edit: I just followed the link, mate, that is with full CP.... don't compare 70 CP to 3600 please.Edited by pppontus on 25 February 2015 14:150 -
Inubis✭✭✭For real? I definitely have NOT seen that. I've seen one Stam DK claim to do 15K with 2H. It seems 2H is quite OP atm, but that's an issue with 2H and every class can do like 15K just wrecking blow.. if that is the issue I can support it, because that's just silly. Doesn't make other builds less viable really, just atm anyone not having a 2H sword is comparably gimped..
+ I'll repeat something I always say when people bring up DKs: never compare your burst DPS to a DK because if he has Standard of Might he'll boost all his DPS by 20% for 20 seconds = OP, problem is now he can only do that for 20 secs out of 83 per fight. So the fight needs to be 80 secs + to give accurate results with SOM.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBwEoj14_68
^^ Just because I am not in a lazy mood.
Well, obviously we can instantly discount the tests on Nomeg as you never DPS test on undead. That's like DPS testing 101.
His results on Blood Spawn is impressive to say the least. Is there any info on CP used and such? I mean, I sure as hell can't do that DPS with my DK and my measly 70 CP, not a chance in hell. He could obviously just be 100x better than me at Stamina DPS, but .. it seems absolutely crazy imo. Either way, if that is the way it is then maybe certain Stam builds need nerfs to be brought in line with the rest of the game. Because my NB DW, NB Magicka, Sorc Magicka and DK Magicka all seem to be pretty even otherwise and compares well to the Stam/Mag Templars I've seen and well, anything apart from that video....
Edit: I just followed the link, mate, that is with full CP.... don't compare 70 CP to 3600 please.
Well I agree. The first test is moot (but he also ranges higher at 22k if I believe so we could just offset it by 2k) secondly why not compare it to full CP? I was comparing it to full CP on a sorc... Its not like I am comparing apples to oranges. I am comparing a 3600 template to a 3600 template. If you have a 3600 thats hitting 20k with a magicka build please send it my way because I have yet to see it.
Edit: Just to clarify when I do my testing I am not testing with my current characters build but rather trying to test the maximum that can be achived. For example if your testing at different CP allotments your test is worthless because obviously there will be so much variation. But if you take 2 classes put them as high as you can and test them side by side and one clearly out performs the other then the issue is across the board.Edited by Inubis on 25 February 2015 14:260 -
byrom101b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭For real? I definitely have NOT seen that. I've seen one Stam DK claim to do 15K with 2H. It seems 2H is quite OP atm, but that's an issue with 2H and every class can do like 15K just wrecking blow.. if that is the issue I can support it, because that's just silly. Doesn't make other builds less viable really, just atm anyone not having a 2H sword is comparably gimped..
+ I'll repeat something I always say when people bring up DKs: never compare your burst DPS to a DK because if he has Standard of Might he'll boost all his DPS by 20% for 20 seconds = OP, problem is now he can only do that for 20 secs out of 83 per fight. So the fight needs to be 80 secs + to give accurate results with SOM.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBwEoj14_68
^^ Just because I am not in a lazy mood.
Well, obviously we can instantly discount the tests on Nomeg as you never DPS test on undead. That's like DPS testing 101.
His results on Blood Spawn is impressive to say the least. Is there any info on CP used and such? I mean, I sure as hell can't do that DPS with my DK and my measly 70 CP, not a chance in hell. He could obviously just be 100x better than me at Stamina DPS, but .. it seems absolutely crazy imo. Either way, if that is the way it is then maybe certain Stam builds need nerfs to be brought in line with the rest of the game. Because my NB DW, NB Magicka, Sorc Magicka and DK Magicka all seem to be pretty even otherwise and compares well to the Stam/Mag Templars I've seen and well, anything apart from that video....
Edit: I just followed the link, mate, that is with full CP.... don't compare 70 CP to 3600 please.
Well I agree. The first test is moot (but he also ranges higher at 22k if I believe so we could just offset it by 2k) secondly why not compare it to full CP? I was comparing it to full CP on a sorc... Its not like I am comparing apples to oranges. I am comparing a 3600 template to a 3600 template. If you have a 3600 thats hitting 20k with a magicka build please send it my way because I have yet to see it.
Doubtful you'll see one within 20% of that guy's DPS performance.0 -
Lied✭✭✭Even these videos pppontus show a sorc getting 13k-14k AOE DPS... like what? Are you kidding me? This shows absolutely nothing.He makes adjusments after the first gargoyel fight, which he ends at 16k (and is his low DPS which still out does me) then comes back and does 20k (make note his DPS counter moves from top left to under his resource bars in his second attempt).I am comparing a 3600 template to a 3600 template.
Actually, apparently you're not?0 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭For real? I definitely have NOT seen that. I've seen one Stam DK claim to do 15K with 2H. It seems 2H is quite OP atm, but that's an issue with 2H and every class can do like 15K just wrecking blow.. if that is the issue I can support it, because that's just silly. Doesn't make other builds less viable really, just atm anyone not having a 2H sword is comparably gimped..
+ I'll repeat something I always say when people bring up DKs: never compare your burst DPS to a DK because if he has Standard of Might he'll boost all his DPS by 20% for 20 seconds = OP, problem is now he can only do that for 20 secs out of 83 per fight. So the fight needs to be 80 secs + to give accurate results with SOM.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBwEoj14_68
^^ Just because I am not in a lazy mood.
Well, obviously we can instantly discount the tests on Nomeg as you never DPS test on undead. That's like DPS testing 101.
His results on Blood Spawn is impressive to say the least. Is there any info on CP used and such? I mean, I sure as hell can't do that DPS with my DK and my measly 70 CP, not a chance in hell. He could obviously just be 100x better than me at Stamina DPS, but .. it seems absolutely crazy imo. Either way, if that is the way it is then maybe certain Stam builds need nerfs to be brought in line with the rest of the game. Because my NB DW, NB Magicka, Sorc Magicka and DK Magicka all seem to be pretty even otherwise and compares well to the Stam/Mag Templars I've seen and well, anything apart from that video....
Edit: I just followed the link, mate, that is with full CP.... don't compare 70 CP to 3600 please.
Well I agree. The first test is moot (but he also ranges higher at 22k if I believe so we could just offset it by 2k) secondly why not compare it to full CP? I was comparing it to full CP on a sorc... Its not like I am comparing apples to oranges. I am comparing a 3600 template to a 3600 template. If you have a 3600 thats hitting 20k with a magicka build please send it my way because I have yet to see it.
Edit: Just to clarify when I do my testing I am not testing with my current characters build but rather trying to test the maximum that can be achived. For example if your testing at different CP allotments your test is worthless because obviously there will be so much variation. But if you take 2 classes put them as high as you can and test them side by side and one clearly out performs the other then the issue is across the board.
Honestly, everyone including a blind man can see that 3600 CP balance is non-existant at the moment. The entire game is upside down with 3600 CP, flat out broken.. but since it will be 2 years until we get there.. I've just completely left it out because it's just one of those things that I might as well deal with another day.. as in when someone actually gets there.0 -
Inubis✭✭✭Even these videos pppontus show a sorc getting 13k-14k AOE DPS... like what? Are you kidding me? This shows absolutely nothing.He makes adjusments after the first gargoyel fight, which he ends at 16k (and is his low DPS which still out does me) then comes back and does 20k (make note his DPS counter moves from top left to under his resource bars in his second attempt).I am comparing a 3600 template to a 3600 template.
Actually, apparently you're not?
What is this post supposed to mean something? Oh I get it now! Your saying I am comparing ppontus non-full CP to this DK Full CP... I see. No no good sir! I am comparing my own experince in a full CP to this DK full CP. I came to this thread to see if a sorc was able to output the same at full CP.
On pppontus comment I was more so say his video in relation to the topic at hand had no value not in comparison to the aformentioned video.Edited by Inubis on 25 February 2015 14:360 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭For real? I definitely have NOT seen that. I've seen one Stam DK claim to do 15K with 2H. It seems 2H is quite OP atm, but that's an issue with 2H and every class can do like 15K just wrecking blow.. if that is the issue I can support it, because that's just silly. Doesn't make other builds less viable really, just atm anyone not having a 2H sword is comparably gimped..
+ I'll repeat something I always say when people bring up DKs: never compare your burst DPS to a DK because if he has Standard of Might he'll boost all his DPS by 20% for 20 seconds = OP, problem is now he can only do that for 20 secs out of 83 per fight. So the fight needs to be 80 secs + to give accurate results with SOM.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBwEoj14_68
^^ Just because I am not in a lazy mood.
Well, obviously we can instantly discount the tests on Nomeg as you never DPS test on undead. That's like DPS testing 101.
His results on Blood Spawn is impressive to say the least. Is there any info on CP used and such? I mean, I sure as hell can't do that DPS with my DK and my measly 70 CP, not a chance in hell. He could obviously just be 100x better than me at Stamina DPS, but .. it seems absolutely crazy imo. Either way, if that is the way it is then maybe certain Stam builds need nerfs to be brought in line with the rest of the game. Because my NB DW, NB Magicka, Sorc Magicka and DK Magicka all seem to be pretty even otherwise and compares well to the Stam/Mag Templars I've seen and well, anything apart from that video....
Edit: I just followed the link, mate, that is with full CP.... don't compare 70 CP to 3600 please.
Well I agree. The first test is moot (but he also ranges higher at 22k if I believe so we could just offset it by 2k) secondly why not compare it to full CP? I was comparing it to full CP on a sorc... Its not like I am comparing apples to oranges. I am comparing a 3600 template to a 3600 template. If you have a 3600 thats hitting 20k with a magicka build please send it my way because I have yet to see it.
Edit: Just to clarify when I do my testing I am not testing with my current characters build but rather trying to test the maximum that can be achived. For example if your testing at different CP allotments your test is worthless because obviously there will be so much variation. But if you take 2 classes put them as high as you can and test them side by side and one clearly out performs the other then the issue is across the board.
Honestly, everyone including a blind man can see that 3600 CP balance is non-existant at the moment. The entire game is upside down with 3600 CP, flat out broken.. but since it will be 2 years until we get there.. I've just completely left it out because it's just one of those things that I might as well deal with another day.. as in when someone actually gets there.
first time i actually agree with you.spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"3 -
Inubis✭✭✭
Honestly, everyone including a blind man can see that 3600 CP balance is non-existant at the moment. The entire game is upside down with 3600 CP, flat out broken.. but since it will be 2 years until we get there.. I've just completely left it out because it's just one of those things that I might as well deal with another day.. as in when someone actually gets there.
Well said... I do not think I will actually get through to you but for the sake of trying in the words of Billy Eichner "Away... We... Go"
(^x is the precentage of its maximum capability. The higher the output the better)
You have two Objects:
Object-A^100 and Object-B^100
Object-B^100 has an output of 1,000 but Object-A^100 only has an output of 200
It would be a clear assesment that Object-A^100 is inferior? correct?
So would it be safe to assume that after this testing Object-B^25 would be superior to Object-A^25?
Now sure you could account for all the variables between ^0 to ^100 (since the points are not applied uniform in real world application) but when you really evaluate the CP system there are only a small ammount of trees that would contribute to stamina DPS and Magicka DPS so its safe to assume (as a end game DPSer) that you will be applying these points evenly depending on your build. Obviously this requires a fair ammount computational thinking to comprehend (I do not mean this as an insult).
I apologize that I am not as articulate as the OP. My real concern is viable magicka based DPS in comparison with stamina based DPS at a 1 for 1 ratio. Not whether or not points might be spent for something like sneaking or whatever. The testing at this level demonstrates there is an inherent problem not in the CP system but on the class level. If it was corrected now the problem wouldnt even have to exist in the first place.0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Alright, I feel as if I want to highlight the points you made, I'm an avid fan of the Sorc healing capability as it stands right now, in PvE, Sorcs dominate all over Templars in terms of healing. Reason being, I have healed Sanctum, and Dragonstar Arena (I have the 58minute time healing it without a Templar). The ONLY change that you should make is revert the Suppression Field, I haven't played PTS but from what I read was that was that it no longer stuns enemies? If that is the case, it's totally contradicting the name "Suppression Field", having it give the major buffs that it does in PTS is honestly pointless and useless. Negate is the one thing that made Sorcs stand far above Templars in terms of healing.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.
First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.
That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.
Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!
Please take this from me
#MOREORBS0