1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

pppontus · February 2015

Fayaburn wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

If you look at many high end guilds they are also dominated by that one class. Every single one of them I've ever seen is a council of dks with a couple temps and maybe a solo veil nightblade. But the high end raiding guilds are dominated by dks and dk fans, many of whom were sorcs at one point or other rerolls.

Now this is an issue because ZOS in that lack of even finite wisdom decided to talk to these people... balance around their self serving suggestions. While I'm sure the advice wasn't all buff dks, it wasn't neuter dks either. It was "tuning" things like dks do a lot more dps than other classes, how about buffing the other classes slightly or nerfing dks slightly. How do you get to a point where a DK fire mage can do twice the dps of a sorc and not be totally blind?

The one thing about the old FOTM is that it will always yield a mass exodus to it and then a crying about changes to it. Problem here is that dks are the FOTY and have enjoyed an entire game year of being so ridiculously overpowered that they do more dps if they are stupid laggers. If you think these people playing dks, who have known nothing but being the most desired class and being the primary raid class with "non dk stragglers" brought along to support the dk awesomeness.are going to go silently into the night as balancing of the game... well they are not. They will lie, cheat and steal to maintain their undeserved power in game.

Do you think ZOS though to check who they were talking to? 90% dks (some claiming otherwise) with a couple nightblades who are solo veil spam to keep the mighty dk up and a couple templars that heal dks?

From what I've seen and read... ZOS is oblivious to the issue in game regarding dks. They listened to the uber guilders whose main interest is keeping dks powerful. They believe that the guilds incapable of completing the content fail because they are bad... when all success is ratio of dks.

It's that bad... and when the few active sorcs see nothing but trivial changes being made to a situation that places them squarely in the arena of "if there is a spot" or translated "if we can't find a dk" or "if we somehow might need a negate", well if the few active sorcs left see nothing that changes our prospects in balance... you have 10 dks saying the opposite.

pppontus wrote: »

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

1) First: I don't say that 1,2k on live is impossible for sorcerer magicka, but it's really not simple to maintain 1k (without spell of warguild) on boss.
2) You pretend that magicka sorcerer will have the best DPS, but have you read or test, how many a DK, NB stamina with the same amount of champion point can do ?

Again: i indicated you this link with a DK stamina (without PVP buff, with 70 CP: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You show that you can reach 12,5 k with sorcerer in 1.6 and with potion, i show you a link, with a DK doing 16,500 without PVP buff and potion, and you pretend that's sorcerer have the best DPS in the game ?

It's not only a problem of sorcerer, that's more magicka/stamina balancing, but it's too a real sorcerer problem

Ok, maybe test are not so good, maybe my number are a little theoretical, and it's more hypothese

But now: list of real fact:
1) Sorcerer will be in 1.6 the worst healer (no more power/critical surge)
2) Sorcerer will have a good magicka DPS, but certainly not the best DPS, and you need to go melee to have a good dps, but you will have no more spell protection
3) 1.5. Sorcerer is the useless class (see timing in AA, Hel-RA, SO, DSA), less sorcerer than other class
4) AOE DPS in 1.5. for sorcerer was really weak (i do more AOE DPS with my templar heal).

1. For me to drop below 1,2K in a boss fight on live I have to have some serious issues. It's not that it's hard per se, because when you perfect your weaving it isn't hard anymore, you just have to really learn that.

Please stop spreading the false information that 1.2k is the standard for Sorcerers. That DPS relies on Mephala and Infaillible Aether (possibly coupled with Bound Armaments). Those sets (especially Infaillible) are not accessible to >95% of the Sorc community.

Currently without this precise setup of elite gear, the DPS of an average is around 900 where the good Sorcs reach 1k to 1.1k on boss fights. And yes, 1k is the lower standard for DPS for any engame content that matters.

On live with 1.5, the DPS rating for the existing builds (talking average over the majority of players) is :
Stam NB > DK (stam or mag) > Stam Templar > Stam Sorc > Magicka NB and Sorcs > Magicka Templar

I usually agree with most of the points you are stating in your posts even if our vision about the design flaws with the Sorc class may differ a bit (I did not say DPS flaws). However, stating wherever you can be read that on live Sorcs should pull out 1.2k DPS minimum on boss fights or learn to play is just wrong.

You're wrong on that though, 1,2K can be achieved and is regularly achieved by our Sorcs without that combo. Not sure if Mephala is required or not as I've had it since as long as I can remember, and anyway, it is not unreasonable to expect an endgame PvE DPS spec to require an undaunted 2-set by now. DKs need it too, just a more difficult one to get (Valkyn Skoria).

And really, this is the problem we have in these discussions.. are we balancing classes for average players or not? Because that is really the issue here.. you are probably correct that 900 is the Sorc average, but do we then buff the class so the average can do 1,2K and I can do 1,7K..? Or how do we solve that puzzle? It's not like average DKs do 1,6K either, that usually requires a highly skilled player on a fight that incorporates a little AOE (that the DK gets free from engulfing + standard) such as Serpent..

In the end, balancing is a difficult question because (as I've stated a lot of times) in the end the limiting factor of 99% of peoples DPS is their own personal skill. I don't think I've ever really achieved my potential DPS because I always mess up something, still the biggest difference between me and the 900 DPS Sorc is going to be that I weave better, time attacks better, are smarter with pots/ultis and positioning for Combat Prayers and War Horns .. and whatnot. I could take his account and do more DPS, essentially. You get my point?

Edit: I've never used Bound Armaments.

1.2k on all bosses without Mephala and constant trial buffs ? If that is true, congratz, you managed to concentrate most of the highest skilled sorc in this game in your roaster.

Without Mephala, and classic buffs/debuffs (ele drain, syphon and usually combat prayer, no war horn), I am sorry but I don't think I am mistaken when I say that good Sorcerers pull 1k to 1.1k.

I agree that DPS should be balanced around the average DPS pulled by lets say the top 15% players of a class in order to eliminate most of the skill factor. Balancing it around the top 3-5% would be silly however.

And let's just leave the DKs and their live broken DPS out of that discussion. My alt DK can pull 1.2k to 1.4k most of the time with outdated purple gear (not even Valkyn). I don't even care trying to optimize it as I don't really like the play style and the DPS is sufficient for the use I make of it. Any average DK with a far from perfect rotation can pull same or more DPS than the best claims I ever saw from a Sorcerer but that is not the subject of this thread.

Edit : You should use Bound Armaments on the fights where you can fit in on your bar. It would synergize well with your Mephala / Infaillible / Medium Attacks cancel setup.

I'm not sure if Mephala is or isn't required for the 1,2K but I honestly don't think so. However, no, I certainly don't think I do that without buffs (unless we talk about short fights). Who more than DK and Stam NB can do 1,2K sustained in a long boss fight without any group buffs?

Fayaburn wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Is the implication that sorcs take relatively more skill to play well?

Actually no. Sorcerers got the easiest rotation possible on live.
All the skill for all the classes DPS is located in the ability to weave properly or not.

However a Sorcerer with a perfect rotation will still get less DPS that a failing DK and a laughable DPS compared to a DK with perfect rotation.

This post concerns the DPS values reached on live.

Yes, weaving is the way to improve DPS and is the only reason I've gone from 800 to 1,2K+ on any of my characters really. My NB still largely has the same build but has improved that much from weaving only.

Although I think you overestimate crappy DKs. I see plenty of DKs just barely hitting 1K DPS. It sounds like you are actually pretty good at playing your DK alt. If you're DC you should join us

Fayaburn · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

If you look at many high end guilds they are also dominated by that one class. Every single one of them I've ever seen is a council of dks with a couple temps and maybe a solo veil nightblade. But the high end raiding guilds are dominated by dks and dk fans, many of whom were sorcs at one point or other rerolls.

Now this is an issue because ZOS in that lack of even finite wisdom decided to talk to these people... balance around their self serving suggestions. While I'm sure the advice wasn't all buff dks, it wasn't neuter dks either. It was "tuning" things like dks do a lot more dps than other classes, how about buffing the other classes slightly or nerfing dks slightly. How do you get to a point where a DK fire mage can do twice the dps of a sorc and not be totally blind?

The one thing about the old FOTM is that it will always yield a mass exodus to it and then a crying about changes to it. Problem here is that dks are the FOTY and have enjoyed an entire game year of being so ridiculously overpowered that they do more dps if they are stupid laggers. If you think these people playing dks, who have known nothing but being the most desired class and being the primary raid class with "non dk stragglers" brought along to support the dk awesomeness.are going to go silently into the night as balancing of the game... well they are not. They will lie, cheat and steal to maintain their undeserved power in game.

Do you think ZOS though to check who they were talking to? 90% dks (some claiming otherwise) with a couple nightblades who are solo veil spam to keep the mighty dk up and a couple templars that heal dks?

From what I've seen and read... ZOS is oblivious to the issue in game regarding dks. They listened to the uber guilders whose main interest is keeping dks powerful. They believe that the guilds incapable of completing the content fail because they are bad... when all success is ratio of dks.

It's that bad... and when the few active sorcs see nothing but trivial changes being made to a situation that places them squarely in the arena of "if there is a spot" or translated "if we can't find a dk" or "if we somehow might need a negate", well if the few active sorcs left see nothing that changes our prospects in balance... you have 10 dks saying the opposite.

pppontus wrote: »

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

1) First: I don't say that 1,2k on live is impossible for sorcerer magicka, but it's really not simple to maintain 1k (without spell of warguild) on boss.
2) You pretend that magicka sorcerer will have the best DPS, but have you read or test, how many a DK, NB stamina with the same amount of champion point can do ?

Again: i indicated you this link with a DK stamina (without PVP buff, with 70 CP: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You show that you can reach 12,5 k with sorcerer in 1.6 and with potion, i show you a link, with a DK doing 16,500 without PVP buff and potion, and you pretend that's sorcerer have the best DPS in the game ?

It's not only a problem of sorcerer, that's more magicka/stamina balancing, but it's too a real sorcerer problem

Ok, maybe test are not so good, maybe my number are a little theoretical, and it's more hypothese

But now: list of real fact:
1) Sorcerer will be in 1.6 the worst healer (no more power/critical surge)
2) Sorcerer will have a good magicka DPS, but certainly not the best DPS, and you need to go melee to have a good dps, but you will have no more spell protection
3) 1.5. Sorcerer is the useless class (see timing in AA, Hel-RA, SO, DSA), less sorcerer than other class
4) AOE DPS in 1.5. for sorcerer was really weak (i do more AOE DPS with my templar heal).

1. For me to drop below 1,2K in a boss fight on live I have to have some serious issues. It's not that it's hard per se, because when you perfect your weaving it isn't hard anymore, you just have to really learn that.

Please stop spreading the false information that 1.2k is the standard for Sorcerers. That DPS relies on Mephala and Infaillible Aether (possibly coupled with Bound Armaments). Those sets (especially Infaillible) are not accessible to >95% of the Sorc community.

Currently without this precise setup of elite gear, the DPS of an average is around 900 where the good Sorcs reach 1k to 1.1k on boss fights. And yes, 1k is the lower standard for DPS for any engame content that matters.

On live with 1.5, the DPS rating for the existing builds (talking average over the majority of players) is :
Stam NB > DK (stam or mag) > Stam Templar > Stam Sorc > Magicka NB and Sorcs > Magicka Templar

I usually agree with most of the points you are stating in your posts even if our vision about the design flaws with the Sorc class may differ a bit (I did not say DPS flaws). However, stating wherever you can be read that on live Sorcs should pull out 1.2k DPS minimum on boss fights or learn to play is just wrong.

You're wrong on that though, 1,2K can be achieved and is regularly achieved by our Sorcs without that combo. Not sure if Mephala is required or not as I've had it since as long as I can remember, and anyway, it is not unreasonable to expect an endgame PvE DPS spec to require an undaunted 2-set by now. DKs need it too, just a more difficult one to get (Valkyn Skoria).

And really, this is the problem we have in these discussions.. are we balancing classes for average players or not? Because that is really the issue here.. you are probably correct that 900 is the Sorc average, but do we then buff the class so the average can do 1,2K and I can do 1,7K..? Or how do we solve that puzzle? It's not like average DKs do 1,6K either, that usually requires a highly skilled player on a fight that incorporates a little AOE (that the DK gets free from engulfing + standard) such as Serpent..

In the end, balancing is a difficult question because (as I've stated a lot of times) in the end the limiting factor of 99% of peoples DPS is their own personal skill. I don't think I've ever really achieved my potential DPS because I always mess up something, still the biggest difference between me and the 900 DPS Sorc is going to be that I weave better, time attacks better, are smarter with pots/ultis and positioning for Combat Prayers and War Horns .. and whatnot. I could take his account and do more DPS, essentially. You get my point?

Edit: I've never used Bound Armaments.

1.2k on all bosses without Mephala and constant trial buffs ? If that is true, congratz, you managed to concentrate most of the highest skilled sorc in this game in your roaster.

Without Mephala, and classic buffs/debuffs (ele drain, syphon and usually combat prayer, no war horn), I am sorry but I don't think I am mistaken when I say that good Sorcerers pull 1k to 1.1k.

I agree that DPS should be balanced around the average DPS pulled by lets say the top 15% players of a class in order to eliminate most of the skill factor. Balancing it around the top 3-5% would be silly however.

And let's just leave the DKs and their live broken DPS out of that discussion. My alt DK can pull 1.2k to 1.4k most of the time with outdated purple gear (not even Valkyn). I don't even care trying to optimize it as I don't really like the play style and the DPS is sufficient for the use I make of it. Any average DK with a far from perfect rotation can pull same or more DPS than the best claims I ever saw from a Sorcerer but that is not the subject of this thread.

Edit : You should use Bound Armaments on the fights where you can fit in on your bar. It would synergize well with your Mephala / Infaillible / Medium Attacks cancel setup.

I'm not sure if Mephala is or isn't required for the 1,2K but I honestly don't think so. However, no, I certainly don't think I do that without buffs (unless we talk about short fights). Who more than DK and Stam NB can do 1,2K sustained in a long boss fight without any group buffs?

Fayaburn wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Is the implication that sorcs take relatively more skill to play well?

Actually no. Sorcerers got the easiest rotation possible on live.
All the skill for all the classes DPS is located in the ability to weave properly or not.

However a Sorcerer with a perfect rotation will still get less DPS that a failing DK and a laughable DPS compared to a DK with perfect rotation.

This post concerns the DPS values reached on live.

Yes, weaving is the way to improve DPS and is the only reason I've gone from 800 to 1,2K+ on any of my characters really. My NB still largely has the same build but has improved that much from weaving only.

Although I think you overestimate crappy DKs. I see plenty of DKs just barely hitting 1K DPS. It sounds like you are actually pretty good at playing your DK alt. If you're DC you should join us

Actually, without gear actualization, the only thing my DK has got for him is a proper weaving. However I won't update him before 1.6. Am an EU EP player so I guess we won't have the chance to play together if no cross-faction PvE zone is added to this game.

pppontus · February 2015

Fayaburn wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

If you look at many high end guilds they are also dominated by that one class. Every single one of them I've ever seen is a council of dks with a couple temps and maybe a solo veil nightblade. But the high end raiding guilds are dominated by dks and dk fans, many of whom were sorcs at one point or other rerolls.

Now this is an issue because ZOS in that lack of even finite wisdom decided to talk to these people... balance around their self serving suggestions. While I'm sure the advice wasn't all buff dks, it wasn't neuter dks either. It was "tuning" things like dks do a lot more dps than other classes, how about buffing the other classes slightly or nerfing dks slightly. How do you get to a point where a DK fire mage can do twice the dps of a sorc and not be totally blind?

The one thing about the old FOTM is that it will always yield a mass exodus to it and then a crying about changes to it. Problem here is that dks are the FOTY and have enjoyed an entire game year of being so ridiculously overpowered that they do more dps if they are stupid laggers. If you think these people playing dks, who have known nothing but being the most desired class and being the primary raid class with "non dk stragglers" brought along to support the dk awesomeness.are going to go silently into the night as balancing of the game... well they are not. They will lie, cheat and steal to maintain their undeserved power in game.

Do you think ZOS though to check who they were talking to? 90% dks (some claiming otherwise) with a couple nightblades who are solo veil spam to keep the mighty dk up and a couple templars that heal dks?

From what I've seen and read... ZOS is oblivious to the issue in game regarding dks. They listened to the uber guilders whose main interest is keeping dks powerful. They believe that the guilds incapable of completing the content fail because they are bad... when all success is ratio of dks.

It's that bad... and when the few active sorcs see nothing but trivial changes being made to a situation that places them squarely in the arena of "if there is a spot" or translated "if we can't find a dk" or "if we somehow might need a negate", well if the few active sorcs left see nothing that changes our prospects in balance... you have 10 dks saying the opposite.

pppontus wrote: »

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

1) First: I don't say that 1,2k on live is impossible for sorcerer magicka, but it's really not simple to maintain 1k (without spell of warguild) on boss.
2) You pretend that magicka sorcerer will have the best DPS, but have you read or test, how many a DK, NB stamina with the same amount of champion point can do ?

Again: i indicated you this link with a DK stamina (without PVP buff, with 70 CP: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You show that you can reach 12,5 k with sorcerer in 1.6 and with potion, i show you a link, with a DK doing 16,500 without PVP buff and potion, and you pretend that's sorcerer have the best DPS in the game ?

It's not only a problem of sorcerer, that's more magicka/stamina balancing, but it's too a real sorcerer problem

Ok, maybe test are not so good, maybe my number are a little theoretical, and it's more hypothese

But now: list of real fact:
1) Sorcerer will be in 1.6 the worst healer (no more power/critical surge)
2) Sorcerer will have a good magicka DPS, but certainly not the best DPS, and you need to go melee to have a good dps, but you will have no more spell protection
3) 1.5. Sorcerer is the useless class (see timing in AA, Hel-RA, SO, DSA), less sorcerer than other class
4) AOE DPS in 1.5. for sorcerer was really weak (i do more AOE DPS with my templar heal).

1. For me to drop below 1,2K in a boss fight on live I have to have some serious issues. It's not that it's hard per se, because when you perfect your weaving it isn't hard anymore, you just have to really learn that.

Please stop spreading the false information that 1.2k is the standard for Sorcerers. That DPS relies on Mephala and Infaillible Aether (possibly coupled with Bound Armaments). Those sets (especially Infaillible) are not accessible to >95% of the Sorc community.

Currently without this precise setup of elite gear, the DPS of an average is around 900 where the good Sorcs reach 1k to 1.1k on boss fights. And yes, 1k is the lower standard for DPS for any engame content that matters.

On live with 1.5, the DPS rating for the existing builds (talking average over the majority of players) is :
Stam NB > DK (stam or mag) > Stam Templar > Stam Sorc > Magicka NB and Sorcs > Magicka Templar

I usually agree with most of the points you are stating in your posts even if our vision about the design flaws with the Sorc class may differ a bit (I did not say DPS flaws). However, stating wherever you can be read that on live Sorcs should pull out 1.2k DPS minimum on boss fights or learn to play is just wrong.

You're wrong on that though, 1,2K can be achieved and is regularly achieved by our Sorcs without that combo. Not sure if Mephala is required or not as I've had it since as long as I can remember, and anyway, it is not unreasonable to expect an endgame PvE DPS spec to require an undaunted 2-set by now. DKs need it too, just a more difficult one to get (Valkyn Skoria).

And really, this is the problem we have in these discussions.. are we balancing classes for average players or not? Because that is really the issue here.. you are probably correct that 900 is the Sorc average, but do we then buff the class so the average can do 1,2K and I can do 1,7K..? Or how do we solve that puzzle? It's not like average DKs do 1,6K either, that usually requires a highly skilled player on a fight that incorporates a little AOE (that the DK gets free from engulfing + standard) such as Serpent..

In the end, balancing is a difficult question because (as I've stated a lot of times) in the end the limiting factor of 99% of peoples DPS is their own personal skill. I don't think I've ever really achieved my potential DPS because I always mess up something, still the biggest difference between me and the 900 DPS Sorc is going to be that I weave better, time attacks better, are smarter with pots/ultis and positioning for Combat Prayers and War Horns .. and whatnot. I could take his account and do more DPS, essentially. You get my point?

Edit: I've never used Bound Armaments.

1.2k on all bosses without Mephala and constant trial buffs ? If that is true, congratz, you managed to concentrate most of the highest skilled sorc in this game in your roaster.

Without Mephala, and classic buffs/debuffs (ele drain, syphon and usually combat prayer, no war horn), I am sorry but I don't think I am mistaken when I say that good Sorcerers pull 1k to 1.1k.

I agree that DPS should be balanced around the average DPS pulled by lets say the top 15% players of a class in order to eliminate most of the skill factor. Balancing it around the top 3-5% would be silly however.

And let's just leave the DKs and their live broken DPS out of that discussion. My alt DK can pull 1.2k to 1.4k most of the time with outdated purple gear (not even Valkyn). I don't even care trying to optimize it as I don't really like the play style and the DPS is sufficient for the use I make of it. Any average DK with a far from perfect rotation can pull same or more DPS than the best claims I ever saw from a Sorcerer but that is not the subject of this thread.

Edit : You should use Bound Armaments on the fights where you can fit in on your bar. It would synergize well with your Mephala / Infaillible / Medium Attacks cancel setup.

I'm not sure if Mephala is or isn't required for the 1,2K but I honestly don't think so. However, no, I certainly don't think I do that without buffs (unless we talk about short fights). Who more than DK and Stam NB can do 1,2K sustained in a long boss fight without any group buffs?

Fayaburn wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Is the implication that sorcs take relatively more skill to play well?

Actually no. Sorcerers got the easiest rotation possible on live.
All the skill for all the classes DPS is located in the ability to weave properly or not.

However a Sorcerer with a perfect rotation will still get less DPS that a failing DK and a laughable DPS compared to a DK with perfect rotation.

This post concerns the DPS values reached on live.

Yes, weaving is the way to improve DPS and is the only reason I've gone from 800 to 1,2K+ on any of my characters really. My NB still largely has the same build but has improved that much from weaving only.

Although I think you overestimate crappy DKs. I see plenty of DKs just barely hitting 1K DPS. It sounds like you are actually pretty good at playing your DK alt. If you're DC you should join us

Actually, without gear actualization, the only thing my DK has got for him is a proper weaving. However I won't update him before 1.6. Am an EU EP player so I guess we won't have the chance to play together if no cross-faction PvE zone is added to this game.

Well, really, that's what I've been mostly trying to say all along. People focus a lot on gear, class and such, but in the end your skill with weaving and timing dots (for all but sorcerers in 1.5) is the biggest factor in your DPS. Gear and class is mostly useful to reach the final potential, when you've nailed everything else down.

That's my complaint about the 1.5 community excluding Sorcerers. Unless all your players are top of the line, there's rarely a reason to exclude based on class. I'll take a good Sorc over an average DK any day. And I get why Sorcs then complain because everyone else has reinforced that they are bad because the top few % are good enough to blow everyone out of the water with their DKs. Then that travels down and all of a sudden you have the 200 minute pug runs exclude sorcerers.. like it would make any difference

P.S. Of course you need a semi relevant gear setup but you can get away with say crafted Twilights+Torugs really. Just added that so people don't think they can go DW magicka heavy armor NB..

byrom101b16_ESO · February 2015

Fayaburn wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Is the implication that sorcs take relatively more skill to play well?

Actually no. Sorcerers got the easiest rotation possible on live.
All the skill for all the classes DPS is located in the ability to weave properly or not.

However a Sorcerer with a perfect rotation will still get less DPS that a failing DK and a laughable DPS compared to a DK with perfect rotation.

This post concerns the DPS values reached on live.

Indeed!

Too many people, pppontus included it would appear, confuse selective observation of reality with actual reality.

Each class will have it's average performance expressed in a number of metrics based on how the game is programmed. DPS is one of the easiest metrics and thus most widely quoted.

Performance in a metric such as DPS is expressed as a bell-curve distribution. Your position on this bell curve is determined by you skill and gear for a single class.

Class balancing DOES NOT involve ensuring that one edge of a class bell curve coincides with the others, it's the PEAK of the bell curve that should match up as closely as possible.

The middle of the curve is the 'average' performance of the class, and this is best understood by those performing at this level, or those who understand that this is the representation of the metric which best serves useful comparison.

Dimmissing the 'mob' can be a trap in this respect, especially by those who start off from the point of view that as tope performers (or indeed very low performers) they 'know best' by default.

That's rubbish...

Zenimax seemingly don't get it, and to be honest I don't think you get it either from what you've posted. Zenimax think speaking to the best means they are getting the right view of the issues. As for asking the worst players... well... they are dissmissed as the innevitable complainers openly on video...

...condescending much?... you decide...

I don't have the many hours necessary to run the numbers and produce graphs, but I wish someone would. Even comparing the basic resource cost to effect ratios of abilities shows the Sorcerer is in a bad place.

If you are standing in a hole, it's harder to jump as high as the guy starting on a platform. Skill & gear cannot make up for that.

GilGalad · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

If you look at many high end guilds they are also dominated by that one class. Every single one of them I've ever seen is a council of dks with a couple temps and maybe a solo veil nightblade. But the high end raiding guilds are dominated by dks and dk fans, many of whom were sorcs at one point or other rerolls.

Now this is an issue because ZOS in that lack of even finite wisdom decided to talk to these people... balance around their self serving suggestions. While I'm sure the advice wasn't all buff dks, it wasn't neuter dks either. It was "tuning" things like dks do a lot more dps than other classes, how about buffing the other classes slightly or nerfing dks slightly. How do you get to a point where a DK fire mage can do twice the dps of a sorc and not be totally blind?

The one thing about the old FOTM is that it will always yield a mass exodus to it and then a crying about changes to it. Problem here is that dks are the FOTY and have enjoyed an entire game year of being so ridiculously overpowered that they do more dps if they are stupid laggers. If you think these people playing dks, who have known nothing but being the most desired class and being the primary raid class with "non dk stragglers" brought along to support the dk awesomeness.are going to go silently into the night as balancing of the game... well they are not. They will lie, cheat and steal to maintain their undeserved power in game.

Do you think ZOS though to check who they were talking to? 90% dks (some claiming otherwise) with a couple nightblades who are solo veil spam to keep the mighty dk up and a couple templars that heal dks?

From what I've seen and read... ZOS is oblivious to the issue in game regarding dks. They listened to the uber guilders whose main interest is keeping dks powerful. They believe that the guilds incapable of completing the content fail because they are bad... when all success is ratio of dks.

It's that bad... and when the few active sorcs see nothing but trivial changes being made to a situation that places them squarely in the arena of "if there is a spot" or translated "if we can't find a dk" or "if we somehow might need a negate", well if the few active sorcs left see nothing that changes our prospects in balance... you have 10 dks saying the opposite.

pppontus wrote: »

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

1) First: I don't say that 1,2k on live is impossible for sorcerer magicka, but it's really not simple to maintain 1k (without spell of warguild) on boss.
2) You pretend that magicka sorcerer will have the best DPS, but have you read or test, how many a DK, NB stamina with the same amount of champion point can do ?

Again: i indicated you this link with a DK stamina (without PVP buff, with 70 CP: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You show that you can reach 12,5 k with sorcerer in 1.6 and with potion, i show you a link, with a DK doing 16,500 without PVP buff and potion, and you pretend that's sorcerer have the best DPS in the game ?

It's not only a problem of sorcerer, that's more magicka/stamina balancing, but it's too a real sorcerer problem

Ok, maybe test are not so good, maybe my number are a little theoretical, and it's more hypothese

But now: list of real fact:
1) Sorcerer will be in 1.6 the worst healer (no more power/critical surge)
2) Sorcerer will have a good magicka DPS, but certainly not the best DPS, and you need to go melee to have a good dps, but you will have no more spell protection
3) 1.5. Sorcerer is the useless class (see timing in AA, Hel-RA, SO, DSA), less sorcerer than other class
4) AOE DPS in 1.5. for sorcerer was really weak (i do more AOE DPS with my templar heal).

1. For me to drop below 1,2K in a boss fight on live I have to have some serious issues. It's not that it's hard per se, because when you perfect your weaving it isn't hard anymore, you just have to really learn that.

Please stop spreading the false information that 1.2k is the standard for Sorcerers. That DPS relies on Mephala and Infaillible Aether (possibly coupled with Bound Armaments). Those sets (especially Infaillible) are not accessible to >95% of the Sorc community.

Currently without this precise setup of elite gear, the DPS of an average is around 900 where the good Sorcs reach 1k to 1.1k on boss fights. And yes, 1k is the lower standard for DPS for any engame content that matters.

On live with 1.5, the DPS rating for the existing builds (talking average over the majority of players) is :
Stam NB > DK (stam or mag) > Stam Templar > Stam Sorc > Magicka NB and Sorcs > Magicka Templar

I usually agree with most of the points you are stating in your posts even if our vision about the design flaws with the Sorc class may differ a bit (I did not say DPS flaws). However, stating wherever you can be read that on live Sorcs should pull out 1.2k DPS minimum on boss fights or learn to play is just wrong.

You're wrong on that though, 1,2K can be achieved and is regularly achieved by our Sorcs without that combo. Not sure if Mephala is required or not as I've had it since as long as I can remember, and anyway, it is not unreasonable to expect an endgame PvE DPS spec to require an undaunted 2-set by now. DKs need it too, just a more difficult one to get (Valkyn Skoria).

And really, this is the problem we have in these discussions.. are we balancing classes for average players or not? Because that is really the issue here.. you are probably correct that 900 is the Sorc average, but do we then buff the class so the average can do 1,2K and I can do 1,7K..? Or how do we solve that puzzle? It's not like average DKs do 1,6K either, that usually requires a highly skilled player on a fight that incorporates a little AOE (that the DK gets free from engulfing + standard) such as Serpent..

In the end, balancing is a difficult question because (as I've stated a lot of times) in the end the limiting factor of 99% of peoples DPS is their own personal skill. I don't think I've ever really achieved my potential DPS because I always mess up something, still the biggest difference between me and the 900 DPS Sorc is going to be that I weave better, time attacks better, are smarter with pots/ultis and positioning for Combat Prayers and War Horns .. and whatnot. I could take his account and do more DPS, essentially. You get my point?

Edit: I've never used Bound Armaments.

In one point you are right. A game should never be balanced arround average players and average gear. Rare gear should lead to better DPS, healing or tanking (helmet sets do this most of the time, trials gear could be better) but thats not the point here.

The point is, every class should be able to get the same DPS if you do a perfect rotation and have comparable gear. In 1.5 there is a huge disbalance, specially the DKs are way in front. With 1.6 stamina builds get a huge push, while the only class without stamina dmg morphs is the sorc (it actually has one skill that can help stamina sorcs doing more dmg and thats the bound armor stamina morph giving 8% more stamina -> about 4% more dmg), so stamina Sorcs will be the worst stamina DPS class. For magicka DPS they recieved some buffs and can do good dmg but they are still limited compared to other classes. In the end it doesnt matter if the dmg comes from a stamina or a magicka build. Damage is Damage. The highest DPS i could reach in a perfect fight on the PTS is this here:

The fights duration matches the ultimate's duration, so it won't get higher. Potion buffs (spellpower / crit) were active the whole fight, the CF procrate was extremely high but no meteor procs. For comparison the same fight with a bit less luck with the procs:

Legendary gear (almost optimized), 100 CPs spend (34 Mage, 33, 33). Thundering presence was activated before the fight, so for a longer fight you can substract the 500 DPS it made and you have to divide the Attronachs damage by 2 so you have to substract another 1000 DPS, leaving you at a maximum of 14.5k DPS. Stamina DKs with comparable gear can do over 16k DPS in a longer fight (e.g. Bloodspawn, link somewhere above).

Im not saying the Sorcs DPS is completely broken, but in order to compensate for their bad survivability and lack of utility they have to be the best DPS and thats the whole point of this thread. DKs are the best tanks, Templars the best healers and that would be fine if Sorcs and NBs would be the best DPS. While NBs provide good utility (funnel group heal, vail of blades) sorcs dont even have their negate anymore since it got nerved to useless.
Either Sorcs will become the best DPS or they get some group buffs, a middle way would be fine too. But something has to change before update 6 goes live.

Snit · February 2015

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Im not saying the Sorcs DPS is completely broken, but in order to compensate for their bad survivability and lack of utility they have to be the best DPS and thats the whole point of this thread. DKs are the best tanks, Templars the best healers and that would be fine if Sorcs and NBs would be the best DPS.

Eric Wrobel opened his remarks at the last ESO Live by saying they want to balance DPS output. He didn't say anything about survivability, utility or suitability for roles other than DPS output. I found that pretty interesting.

GreyRanger · February 2015

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Im not saying the Sorcs DPS is completely broken, but in order to compensate for their bad survivability and lack of utility they have to be the best DPS and thats the whole point of this thread. DKs are the best tanks, Templars the best healers and that would be fine if Sorcs and NBs would be the best DPS. While NBs provide good utility (funnel group heal, vail of blades) sorcs dont even have their negate anymore since it got nerved to useless.
Either Sorcs will become the best DPS or they get some group buffs, a middle way would be fine too. But something has to change before update 6 goes live. (emphasis added)

While I wish Sorcerers would get balanced before 1.6 goes live, I am guessing that is a dead issue. They are past target and benchmark on a major product revision with a hard deadline (B2P launch) coming up fast. They have already said that 1.6.4 is the last patch to PTS before 1.6 goes to live.

So let me share my greater fear, with console launch coming up more or less right behind B2P the Zeni team is going to be under tremendous pressure to get something to MS and Sony for certification soon so they have time to respond to issues from those companies. This is particularly critical given how buggy ESO has always been. Either of those companies can effectively kill the console migration.

My big suspicion is that 1.6 was the last stop on the train for balance for a long time, as all the resources are shifted to crown store building (they do have to make $ to sustain the product) and console migration. I am about to the place where I have decided that I need to either play another class or play another game once 1.6 hits. My only real questions are whether I should delete characters or just let them sit until ZOS gets round to balancing them.

I hope I am wrong about the pacing of balancing, but I suspect it will be September before they come back around to this.

PS I would prefer to see a balance that made all roles viable rather than just becoming DPS kings.

Grao · February 2015

GreyRanger wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Im not saying the Sorcs DPS is completely broken, but in order to compensate for their bad survivability and lack of utility they have to be the best DPS and thats the whole point of this thread. DKs are the best tanks, Templars the best healers and that would be fine if Sorcs and NBs would be the best DPS. While NBs provide good utility (funnel group heal, vail of blades) sorcs dont even have their negate anymore since it got nerved to useless.
Either Sorcs will become the best DPS or they get some group buffs, a middle way would be fine too. But something has to change before update 6 goes live. (emphasis added)

While I wish Sorcerers would get balanced before 1.6 goes live, I am guessing that is a dead issue. They are past target and benchmark on a major product revision with a hard deadline (B2P launch) coming up fast. They have already said that 1.6.4 is the last patch to PTS before 1.6 goes to live.

So let me share my greater fear, with console launch coming up more or less right behind B2P the Zeni team is going to be under tremendous pressure to get something to MS and Sony for certification soon so they have time to respond to issues from those companies. This is particularly critical given how buggy ESO has always been. Either of those companies can effectively kill the console migration.

My big suspicion is that 1.6 was the last stop on the train for balance for a long time, as all the resources are shifted to crown store building (they do have to make $ to sustain the product) and console migration. I am about to the place where I have decided that I need to either play another class or play another game once 1.6 hits. My only real questions are whether I should delete characters or just let them sit until ZOS gets round to balancing them.

I hope I am wrong about the pacing of balancing, but I suspect it will be September before they come back around to this.

PS I would prefer to see a balance that made all roles viable rather than just becoming DPS kings.

You are correct. Eric said on the ESO Live that they'd stop with rebalance after 1.6. We will only get bug fixes until console is out and stable and after that they will be desperately focusing on new content... Sorcerers, sorry Togglemancers are dead if 1.6 comes to Live as it is. Worse DPS, no Utility, can't tank at all, second worse heal.

Kragorn · February 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

That was posted on Friday, It's really heartwarming to know Eric is so keen to engage with us and our concerns that it's now mid-day on Tuesday and he hasn't even so much acknowledged it.

Really makes one feel your players are valued customers and our views matter.

Grao · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

That was posted on Friday, It's really heartwarming to know Eric is so keen to engage with us and our concerns that it's now mid-day on Tuesday and he hasn't even so much acknowledged it.

Really makes one feel your players are valued customers and our views matter.

Yup.

ZOS_GinaBruno · February 2015

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

daemonios · February 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

While I always appreciate developers' feedback, and I think we have @Gil.Galad to thank for putting together a well thought-out post that drove such feedback, I'm underwhelmed by this reply.

@ZOS_GinaBruno: there is SERIOUS imbalance for Sorcerers right now. What I've seen and tested in PTS doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that Sorcerers (whether magicka or stamina-based) will be on par with any other class in any of the roles. You've had a flood of feedback from Sorcerers ever since 1.6 was available on the PTS and still haven't so much as acknowledged this imbalance (at most you speak of isolated skill issues).

I guess we can't do much more than wait and see, but I'm more and more convinced that you aren't seriously interested in balancing end-game PvE.

cozmon3c_ESO · February 2015

thanks for the update gina

cant we get some stamina damage morphs before live, shouldnt kill the balance but actually put sorc on more equal footing.

pppontus · February 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

Sounds really good. Thanks. This is what I've been meaning all along, more information is needed in a live information when it comes to really evaluating and fine tuning class balance. The Sorcerer feels really good on the PTS at the moment, a lot more fun and a ton more effective than when we only had 2 skills to use (Surge and Crushing Shock).

If I would give any feedback regarding Magicka sorcs, some people are discounting Liquid Lightning for it being a static ground AOE. You might want to look into making the other morph follow the target kind of like the Overcharger AOE? That would make it easier to use, while trading off the longer duration of Liquid Lightning which still makes it preferable.

Then again it seems like the main focus should be Stamina Sorcs and tank/healers because that seems to be what's really lacking atm.

Snit · February 2015

GreyRanger wrote: »

In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

That covers almost all my concerns with the class. Thanks. I assumed that, given the looming deadline, we'd be waiting a couple months. That's not ideal, but it's easier to be patient if the mid- to longer-term plan is reasonable.

cozmon3c_ESO · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

Sounds really good. Thanks. This is what I've been meaning all along, more information is needed in a live information when it comes to really evaluating and fine tuning class balance. The Sorcerer feels really good on the PTS at the moment, a lot more fun and a ton more effective than when we only had 2 skills to use (Surge and Crushing Shock).

If I would give any feedback regarding Magicka sorcs, some people are discounting Liquid Lightning for it being a static ground AOE. You might want to look into making the other morph follow the target kind of like the Overcharger AOE? That would make it easier to use, while trading off the longer duration of Liquid Lightning which still makes it preferable.

Then again it seems like the main focus should be Stamina Sorcs and tank/healers because that seems to be what's really lacking atm.

disagree pvp wise, if i go full magicka with full spell damage, i gave up survivability for damage right. wrong. i barely hurt people. i should see myself pwning the hell out of health bars going full damage. so with sorcs being ok being maxed dps is not alright, its even worse then my damage output in 1.5 and i was using sword and board without weaving. in 1.5 i was able to put stats in damage mitigate and still hit harder then i do in 1.6.

something needs to change or you will only have the elite sorc's on the battlefield and all the rest not making the skill curve. think about that @eric wrobel.

Snit · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Then again it seems like the main focus should be Stamina Sorcs and tank/healers because that seems to be what's really lacking atm.

I agree. We'll know over time whether DPS sorcs are competitive. Trials/ DSA Rosters are the way the player base communicates this type of data, and you can actually quantify the results. Some of the FTC parses you and others have posted show that this problem may have been fixed.

For tank, healer and stam sorcs, though, there is no reasonable argument that they're on-par with all, or even any of the other classes. That group deserves the bulk of the attention.

ToRelax · February 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

Sounds really good. Thanks. This is what I've been meaning all along, more information is needed in a live information when it comes to really evaluating and fine tuning class balance. The Sorcerer feels really good on the PTS at the moment, a lot more fun and a ton more effective than when we only had 2 skills to use (Surge and Crushing Shock).

If I would give any feedback regarding Magicka sorcs, some people are discounting Liquid Lightning for it being a static ground AOE. You might want to look into making the other morph follow the target kind of like the Overcharger AOE? That would make it easier to use, while trading off the longer duration of Liquid Lightning which still makes it preferable.

Then again it seems like the main focus should be Stamina Sorcs and tank/healers because that seems to be what's really lacking atm.

disagree pvp wise, if i go full magicka with full spell damage, i gave up survivability for damage right. wrong. i barely hurt people. i should see myself pwning the hell out of health bars going full damage. so with sorcs being ok being maxed dps is not alright, its even worse then my damage output in 1.5 and i was using sword and board without weaving. in 1.5 i was able to put stats in damage mitigate and still hit harder then i do in 1.6.

something needs to change or you will only have the elite sorc's on the battlefield and all the rest not making the skill curve. think about that @eric wrobel.

Well maybe I overestimate most Sorc players then... but since you can so easily achieve close to endless resources in 1.6 (compared to 1.5, wich was nearly a pure resource game) you have to create bursts to be efficient at killing and the Sorc shines in that. It may be that 2 hand is a bit overpowered on PTS at the moment, but that is a problem with 2 hand then, not all other specs. And apart from stamina 2 hand and NB with dualwield maybe I don't know any build that can do higher burst damage than a magicka Sorc.

So yeah it's less about resource management and more about good timing now, but Sorc actually has less problems with this change than most classes imo (if they don't go 2 hand at least).

Robbmrp · February 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

So to get the best heal for Sorcs now we need to slot a Clanfear in place of Critical Surge. No point in having both on the bar! Hopefully summoning and de-summoning the Clanfear doesn't tick off the other group members.

Jahosefat · February 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

Sounds really good. Thanks. This is what I've been meaning all along, more information is needed in a live information when it comes to really evaluating and fine tuning class balance. The Sorcerer feels really good on the PTS at the moment, a lot more fun and a ton more effective than when we only had 2 skills to use (Surge and Crushing Shock).

If I would give any feedback regarding Magicka sorcs, some people are discounting Liquid Lightning for it being a static ground AOE. You might want to look into making the other morph follow the target kind of like the Overcharger AOE? That would make it easier to use, while trading off the longer duration of Liquid Lightning which still makes it preferable.

Then again it seems like the main focus should be Stamina Sorcs and tank/healers because that seems to be what's really lacking atm.

disagree pvp wise, if i go full magicka with full spell damage, i gave up survivability for damage right. wrong. i barely hurt people. i should see myself pwning the hell out of health bars going full damage. so with sorcs being ok being maxed dps is not alright, its even worse then my damage output in 1.5 and i was using sword and board without weaving. in 1.5 i was able to put stats in damage mitigate and still hit harder then i do in 1.6.

something needs to change or you will only have the elite sorc's on the battlefield and all the rest not making the skill curve. think about that @eric wrobel.

Well maybe I overestimate most Sorc players then... but since you can so easily achieve close to endless resources in 1.6 (compared to 1.5, wich was nearly a pure resource game) you have to create bursts to be efficient at killing and the Sorc shines in that. It may be that 2 hand is a bit overpowered on PTS at the moment, but that is a problem with 2 hand then, not all other specs. And apart from stamina 2 hand and NB with dualwield maybe I don't know any build that can do higher burst damage than a magicka Sorc.

So yeah it's less about resource management and more about good timing now, but Sorc actually has less problems with this change than most classes imo (if they don't go 2 hand at least).

And half of that burst is reflectable (there are a lot of DKs in cyro if you haven't noticed)... it is also the most unreliable burst.

Thank you for the update Gina, it is nice to know (or hope) that Sorc tanks/heals/stam dps will be getting attention in the future. People seem to ignore this part of a sorc's life when they spout their opinions of "sorcs are fine, look at the burst on a single target with no reflect!" like this is the only role a sorc should ever wish to fill. Well, there are lots of other rolls to fill in the world of ESO and nobody likes being stuck in 1 role (and not even have the highest potential in that one single roll).

Kragorn · February 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

Simple answer to that: don't deploy U6, problem solved!

ToRelax · February 2015

Jahosefat wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

Sounds really good. Thanks. This is what I've been meaning all along, more information is needed in a live information when it comes to really evaluating and fine tuning class balance. The Sorcerer feels really good on the PTS at the moment, a lot more fun and a ton more effective than when we only had 2 skills to use (Surge and Crushing Shock).

If I would give any feedback regarding Magicka sorcs, some people are discounting Liquid Lightning for it being a static ground AOE. You might want to look into making the other morph follow the target kind of like the Overcharger AOE? That would make it easier to use, while trading off the longer duration of Liquid Lightning which still makes it preferable.

Then again it seems like the main focus should be Stamina Sorcs and tank/healers because that seems to be what's really lacking atm.

disagree pvp wise, if i go full magicka with full spell damage, i gave up survivability for damage right. wrong. i barely hurt people. i should see myself pwning the hell out of health bars going full damage. so with sorcs being ok being maxed dps is not alright, its even worse then my damage output in 1.5 and i was using sword and board without weaving. in 1.5 i was able to put stats in damage mitigate and still hit harder then i do in 1.6.

something needs to change or you will only have the elite sorc's on the battlefield and all the rest not making the skill curve. think about that @eric wrobel.

Well maybe I overestimate most Sorc players then... but since you can so easily achieve close to endless resources in 1.6 (compared to 1.5, wich was nearly a pure resource game) you have to create bursts to be efficient at killing and the Sorc shines in that. It may be that 2 hand is a bit overpowered on PTS at the moment, but that is a problem with 2 hand then, not all other specs. And apart from stamina 2 hand and NB with dualwield maybe I don't know any build that can do higher burst damage than a magicka Sorc.

So yeah it's less about resource management and more about good timing now, but Sorc actually has less problems with this change than most classes imo (if they don't go 2 hand at least).

And half of that burst is reflectable (there are a lot of DKs in cyro if you haven't noticed)... it is also the most unreliable burst.

Thank you for the update Gina, it is nice to know (or hope) that Sorc tanks/heals/stam dps will be getting attention in the future. People seem to ignore this part of a sorc's life when they spout their opinions of "sorcs are fine, look at the burst on a single target with no reflect!" like this is the only role a sorc should ever wish to fill. Well, there are lots of other rolls to fill in the world of ESO and nobody likes being stuck in 1 role (and not even have the highest potential in that one single roll).

*sigh*

You should be careful with it, yes, and it's pretty easy to counter, yes.
And most enemies will make a mistake and I will be ready to kill them for it.
The ones who don't - well, if I go defensive I can survive a single target forever as well, right, that's how 1.6 PvP works, as explained in my previous post. That is, if they don't have a serious CP advantage, wich is a whole different matter though.

And by no means would I say Sorc is fine already, I agree with you that we should have different options and very much approve of Gina's post.

GreyRanger · February 2015

The Dev response is what it expected given the context, but it is still a disappointment.

Those people who have been playing a stamina sorcerer had their legs cut out from them by the Devs. I will certainly not be playing my stamina sorcerer any longer, no point in it.

It is clear that 1.6 turned the Sorcerer into a one role class at best (Magicka DPS) with some controversy about how good that is. Healing and Tanking, the two areas I thought were obviously going to get buffed to bring them in line with the Elder Dragon Knights Online got nerfed instead do the changes in so many mechanics or ignored. I hope the character creation screen will carry a warning that Sorcerers are meant for Magicka DPS only, do not make one for healing, tanking, or weapon use, however you wanted to play.

The saddest part in all this is that there was plenty of information about these issues before 1.6 launched and continuous since it has been on PTS. It certainly creates the impression that player/customer feedback did not influence the experience provided.

Most importantly: @ZOS_GinaBruno, when might we expect the next official update on the status of sorcerers?

byrom101b16_ESO · February 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

First of all - thank you for getting back to us. You're just the messenger and so I will clarify now that the rest of this post is directed at the decision makers behind you who have put you front and centre to answer the awkward questions they make the final decisions on.

I find nothing substantive in your post about magicka Sorcs whatsoever. Are you only listening to pppontus? Do the 99% of the rest of us, including Gil.Galad who have suffered the Sorc. as is and will be, and those of us who have laid out in great detail what the problems are, mean nothing to you on this particular issue?

You are tweaking peripheral issues at best, and if you had been keeping an eye as you say on magicka Sorcerers performance in the 6 months prior, you'd see that they are woefully underperforming.

Your promises on stamina Sorcerers are unspecific and speak of a 'future update'. When, who knows?

But nothing EVER for magicka Sorcs?

If you think the nerfs you are introducing in 1.6 do anything but make this worse, you are kidding yourselves. Gil.Galad has in each and every case come up with better solutions that your entire team have managed in how long?

But then that would suppose you have been looking at it with any rigour (outside of catering to a few noisy complainants in PvP) which I am having serious doubts about...

In any case, it appears that this thread and many others may as well not have been posted.

Is there any point playing anything but a DK or Templar healer in your game any more?

Having spent so much time on my Sorc. and having believed your manifesto about 'play the way you want to play', even defended your less palatable MMO/TES hybridisation decisions against a load of complaints from my friends, you have, ultimately make me look like a complete fool.

It is fair to say that I am utterly disappointed... it is perfectly clear to me that as you are up against a self-imposed console deadline and having missed the elephant in the room, you are brushing us off with what you hope will be sufficient placation.

Why don't you record another video calling Sorc. players complainers and subsequently doing nothing about it? I for one really appreciate having my judgement and forthright efforts to point out the very real problems utterly disregarded and belittled by your game designers.

Thanks...

Jahosefat · February 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

Sounds really good. Thanks. This is what I've been meaning all along, more information is needed in a live information when it comes to really evaluating and fine tuning class balance. The Sorcerer feels really good on the PTS at the moment, a lot more fun and a ton more effective than when we only had 2 skills to use (Surge and Crushing Shock).

If I would give any feedback regarding Magicka sorcs, some people are discounting Liquid Lightning for it being a static ground AOE. You might want to look into making the other morph follow the target kind of like the Overcharger AOE? That would make it easier to use, while trading off the longer duration of Liquid Lightning which still makes it preferable.

Then again it seems like the main focus should be Stamina Sorcs and tank/healers because that seems to be what's really lacking atm.

disagree pvp wise, if i go full magicka with full spell damage, i gave up survivability for damage right. wrong. i barely hurt people. i should see myself pwning the hell out of health bars going full damage. so with sorcs being ok being maxed dps is not alright, its even worse then my damage output in 1.5 and i was using sword and board without weaving. in 1.5 i was able to put stats in damage mitigate and still hit harder then i do in 1.6.

something needs to change or you will only have the elite sorc's on the battlefield and all the rest not making the skill curve. think about that @eric wrobel.

Well maybe I overestimate most Sorc players then... but since you can so easily achieve close to endless resources in 1.6 (compared to 1.5, wich was nearly a pure resource game) you have to create bursts to be efficient at killing and the Sorc shines in that. It may be that 2 hand is a bit overpowered on PTS at the moment, but that is a problem with 2 hand then, not all other specs. And apart from stamina 2 hand and NB with dualwield maybe I don't know any build that can do higher burst damage than a magicka Sorc.

So yeah it's less about resource management and more about good timing now, but Sorc actually has less problems with this change than most classes imo (if they don't go 2 hand at least).

And half of that burst is reflectable (there are a lot of DKs in cyro if you haven't noticed)... it is also the most unreliable burst.

Thank you for the update Gina, it is nice to know (or hope) that Sorc tanks/heals/stam dps will be getting attention in the future. People seem to ignore this part of a sorc's life when they spout their opinions of "sorcs are fine, look at the burst on a single target with no reflect!" like this is the only role a sorc should ever wish to fill. Well, there are lots of other rolls to fill in the world of ESO and nobody likes being stuck in 1 role (and not even have the highest potential in that one single roll).

*sigh*

You should be careful with it, yes, and it's pretty easy to counter, yes.
And most enemies will make a mistake and I will be ready to kill them for it.
The ones who don't - well, if I go defensive I can survive a single target forever as well, right, that's how 1.6 PvP works, as explained in my previous post. That is, if they don't have a serious CP advantage, wich is a whole different matter though.

And by no means would I say Sorc is fine already, I agree with you that we should have different options and very much approve of Gina's post.

My point was it is not the "be-all-end-all" of burst, and quite often you have to kite and troll around to set it up. I don't think we should mislead anyone to think "I just run around cyro tossing frag procs left and right and everyone they hit dies". You have to set it up or come across some people that just don't know what to do. Against groups where you can't keep track of every wing that has popped it's a pretty bad skill. Every class has reflectable skills, the problem with sorcs is our intended main source of DPS is reflectable which is not the case with other classes. We also have no class melee options to circumvent this.

So I think everyone can agree that sorc tanks/heals/stam dps needs some serious loving; but lets also not delude ourselves into thinking the mag DPS is in a great spot either. You are locked into a kiting ranged roll with no mag melee options at all. Maybe not every sorc thinks setting up a proc burst for 5 mins for every DK kill is fun (I don't think it is fun after mucking with it for a year, I don't think new players will either).

ToRelax · February 2015

Jahosefat wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We do have a status to share regarding Sorcerers as they currently stand.

First, there is one outstanding issue with Crystal Fragments not proccing when you cast Bolt Escape; we are aiming to fix this by time Update 6 is live. While we aren’t planning to implement any additional changes before Update 6 goes live, we will be keeping a very close eye on how Sorcerers – and all classes – perform in a Live environment, and will make tweaks as necessary. With Update 6 just around the corner, we don’t want to make any drastic changes that could affect gameplay in a negative way.

That said, we do have plans to make the Sorcerer more effective as a stamina DPS, tank, and healer. The first change we already made towards that direction is allowing the Clannfear to heal the caster based on their maximum health when the Clannfear is killed or dismissed. In a future update, we will be looking at giving the Sorcerer unique ways to fulfill the healer role, or deal damage with stamina-based abilities. Some specific issues we will also be evaluating are the number of toggled abilities on the class, Surge healing cooldown, and tweaks to make Dark Exchange more useful.

Please continue to report any issues you may come across, and thank you for all your support and feedback!

Sounds really good. Thanks. This is what I've been meaning all along, more information is needed in a live information when it comes to really evaluating and fine tuning class balance. The Sorcerer feels really good on the PTS at the moment, a lot more fun and a ton more effective than when we only had 2 skills to use (Surge and Crushing Shock).

If I would give any feedback regarding Magicka sorcs, some people are discounting Liquid Lightning for it being a static ground AOE. You might want to look into making the other morph follow the target kind of like the Overcharger AOE? That would make it easier to use, while trading off the longer duration of Liquid Lightning which still makes it preferable.

Then again it seems like the main focus should be Stamina Sorcs and tank/healers because that seems to be what's really lacking atm.

disagree pvp wise, if i go full magicka with full spell damage, i gave up survivability for damage right. wrong. i barely hurt people. i should see myself pwning the hell out of health bars going full damage. so with sorcs being ok being maxed dps is not alright, its even worse then my damage output in 1.5 and i was using sword and board without weaving. in 1.5 i was able to put stats in damage mitigate and still hit harder then i do in 1.6.

something needs to change or you will only have the elite sorc's on the battlefield and all the rest not making the skill curve. think about that @eric wrobel.

Well maybe I overestimate most Sorc players then... but since you can so easily achieve close to endless resources in 1.6 (compared to 1.5, wich was nearly a pure resource game) you have to create bursts to be efficient at killing and the Sorc shines in that. It may be that 2 hand is a bit overpowered on PTS at the moment, but that is a problem with 2 hand then, not all other specs. And apart from stamina 2 hand and NB with dualwield maybe I don't know any build that can do higher burst damage than a magicka Sorc.

So yeah it's less about resource management and more about good timing now, but Sorc actually has less problems with this change than most classes imo (if they don't go 2 hand at least).

And half of that burst is reflectable (there are a lot of DKs in cyro if you haven't noticed)... it is also the most unreliable burst.

Thank you for the update Gina, it is nice to know (or hope) that Sorc tanks/heals/stam dps will be getting attention in the future. People seem to ignore this part of a sorc's life when they spout their opinions of "sorcs are fine, look at the burst on a single target with no reflect!" like this is the only role a sorc should ever wish to fill. Well, there are lots of other rolls to fill in the world of ESO and nobody likes being stuck in 1 role (and not even have the highest potential in that one single roll).

*sigh*

You should be careful with it, yes, and it's pretty easy to counter, yes.
And most enemies will make a mistake and I will be ready to kill them for it.
The ones who don't - well, if I go defensive I can survive a single target forever as well, right, that's how 1.6 PvP works, as explained in my previous post. That is, if they don't have a serious CP advantage, wich is a whole different matter though.

And by no means would I say Sorc is fine already, I agree with you that we should have different options and very much approve of Gina's post.

My point was it is not the "be-all-end-all" of burst, and quite often you have to kite and troll around to set it up. I don't think we should mislead anyone to think "I just run around cyro tossing frag procs left and right and everyone they hit dies". You have to set it up or come across some people that just don't know what to do. Against groups where you can't keep track of every wing that has popped it's a pretty bad skill. Every class has reflectable skills, the problem with sorcs is our intended main source of DPS is reflectable which is not the case with other classes. We also have no class melee options to circumvent this.

So I think everyone can agree that sorc tanks/heals/stam dps needs some serious loving; but lets also not delude ourselves into thinking the mag DPS is in a great spot either. You are locked into a kiting ranged roll with no mag melee options at all. Maybe not every sorc thinks setting up a proc burst for 5 mins for every DK kill is fun (I don't think it is fun after mucking with it for a year, I don't think new players will either).

Yes I can agree to that, and combinations that get most people killed aren't that easy to get off for sure.

Only thing I would add here is that in fact melee magicka is mostly inferior to stamina melee, so Templars and DKs have it a bit harder if they want to play a caster as they can not really kite. At least if they don't go vamp and use elusive mist wich gives an escape option.

Snit · February 2015

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Why don't you record another video calling Sorc. players complainers

Yeah - that was a real eye-opener of a moment. "Let me put this diplomatically (laughs)..."

Ugh.

Dracane · February 2015

Stamina Sorcerers have destroyed us -.-

byrom101b16_ESO · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Why don't you record another video calling Sorc. players complainers

Yeah - that was a real eye-opener of a moment. "Let me put this diplomatically (laughs)..."

Ugh.

DK's are laughably overpowered, and yet they miss that too.

I guess being lost in 'Oblivion' doesn't just apply to the game world...

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · February 2015

Gil.Galad wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is a great post, and is the exact type of feedback that we'd like to see moving forward. Gil.Galad doesn't necessarily agree with some of the changes to the Sorcerer, and that's ok, but he explains his reasoning and provides suggestions after some testing on the PTS.

We've passed this along to the gameplay team, and will work on getting some answers for you all.

Thank you for the reply and I'm looking forward to your answers!

As long as it results in tweaking sorcs and not nerfing puncturing sweep again. One suggestion is Maybe buff storm atro a lot and get rid of synergy or make synergy much better so they have a damage ult on par with the other classes.