1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

GilGalad

Hello,

I know there are allready many threads about sorcerers in the forums and I read almost all, but I think many of them ignore facts or don't make good comparisons or dont make realistic suggestions. First of all I will make clear that this post is about PVE balance, the sorcs in PVP are fine if you know how to play them. I played a sorc since the beta, I'm playing some pvp (rank 19) in organised groups or solo and do a lot of dungeons and raids (AA and HR hardmode clear, SO clear). Some of the arguments are similar to other threads and I wont quote them all, just see this here as a summary with some additional feedback.

The big questions is what ZOS wants the Sorcerer to be? What roles should it fill out? @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ can you answer this?

In my opinion there is a good space for the sorcere as a ranged magicka caster, supporting the group with magicka and providing magicka based debuffs like spellpenetration. And if you take a close look at it we aren't so far away as you will see in the suggestions section.

This text will be longer so i will make some structure using the spoiler function. Just click on the headlines you are interested in.

Situation in 1.5 compared to 1.6.3 concerning raid and dungeon groups

Situation in 1.5

Tank: Dragonknight (DK) > Templar (T) > Nightblade (NB) >= Sorcerer (S)
Healer: T >> S > NB >= DK
DPS: DK > NB > S > T

Does this look like "play what you want and play how you want"?
While DKs and Temps have at least one role where they are way better than other classes, NB and specially sorcs had no role where they are the best, but NBs are still able to deal 1.300 DPS while a sorc can hardly get up to 1.000-1.100 DPS. This is reflected in the trial leaderbords: The fastest teams dont even have one single sorc. The sorcs are completely underrepresented as shown in this thread: Magicka Sorcerers and end-game PvE

And this is why: Sorcs dont deal enough dmg and they are only used as heal support and negate monkey. Thanks to surge they had the highest weapon damage in 1.5 so there healing done with the restoration staff was extremely good. The negate was usefull in many situations when you face a lot of magic aoe dmg.

What will change with 1.6?

Restoration staff abilities scale of spelldmg, the spelldmg buff is available for every class (Mages guild -> Entropy). Since the mage doesnt have healing abilites the expert mage passive wont give him a huge bonus while healing (example: you only do aoe heals with healing springs, you will need magelight, -> 8% more spelldmg -> about 4% more healing done). Compared to DKs or NBs who have some nice synergies while healing (syphoning abilities, DKs dmg shield) sorcs wont be the 2nd best healers anymore.

Changes to negate magic:
It only negates magic effects when its casted, spell resistance removed (1.5 suppresion field), minor dmg reduction added (doesn't stack with the circle of protection (fighters guild)), spellpenetration added. Compared to other defensive ultimates that provide a 30% dmg reduction for the players (NB: vail of blades) or reduce the boss dmg (Templar: solar prison), the 8% are a joke and can be provided by a NON ultimate ability. The negate doesnt do any dmg itself while the vail or nova deal dmg, so the spellpenetration could be somehow equal to it but.
The absorption field is not a good option too since all the buffs can be obtained without ultimates (radiant aura (templar), potions, rapid manouver).

So what can a sorc do for the group in 1.6?
- exploitation passive giving 3% spellcrit to the group
- restoring twilight increasing the magicka recovery by 10% (if it survives and doesnt trigger boss mechanics like the chain lightning from the mage in AA)
- Attronach synergy increasing the dmg of one player by 25% for 8 sec every 60 sec (attronach cooldown)
- Less DPS then NBs and DKs
- Less survivability then all other classes (see below)

thats it. Compared to templars and nightblades with their defensive ultimates and support abilities there is no space for sorcs. Maybe for one with a twilight and any dark magic ability. But the dmg increase for the group DPS from the 3% crit will be equal to the loss of having one NB or DK dps less in group.

Survivability compared to other classes

I will make this one short and add some videos. The sorc doesn't have a good selfheal, only protection is the hardened ward and the thundering presence. So i made a video in spellscar against a whole buch of mobs on time with my vet14 sorcerer and one time with my vet14 templar. The gear used is pretty equal, both have 90 CPs spend so i can have the 12% crit passive from the apprentice and get some more surge heals. While my sorc has to use the negate magic in order to survive, i can easily do it on my templar without ultimate. My sorc reaches a higher aoe dps but gets significantly lower selfheal and hardly survives by using his full arsenal of defensive abilities (hardened ward, thundering presence, power surge, suppresion field). A templar needs two skills: Blazing shield, puncturing sweep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrLldWE5ugc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSEDX6igKWo

The my heals per second provided by surge where arround 1000 hps for the whole fight, while the templars pucturing sweep provides 2500 hps. If i had used the solar prison ultimate the templars dps would have been better than the sorcs.

Just to show the unbalance i made two more videos. One with my templar without ultimates and without CP spend. And one with pucturing sweep only to show how much HPS a templar can get while dealing dmg:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY7LOQxCR4U

Puncturing Sweep only
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wMkNr4Wv9I"

I could do this with every other class. The DKs have inhale, the NBs sap essence (the also heal the group) so even in terms of survivability sorcs are in the last place now.

Suggestions and ability feedback

As i mentioned before the developer team is on a good way, but i would like to make some suggestions and give some detailed feedback on abilites.

Passives:
- Expert Mage:
I like the idea behind this change to give the sorcerer the chance to reach the highest spelldmg of all classes, so they are more powerful with destruction and restoration staffs then other classes. The problem is that these 2% arent enough since they compete agains the mages guild passive (2% max magicka, 2% magicka reg) per ability slottet. In terms of dmg the 2% more spelldmg are only better if your max magicka is lower than you spelldmg times 10 (max magicka < spelldmg*10). This will rarely happen, specially when you get more CPs. So this passive gives about 6% more spelldmg in most of the cases (since the sorc always needs a destruction staff ability). So it gives about 3% more dmg/healing. Nice to have but not world changing.
Rising it to 1%/3% would actually make it better than the mages guild passive.

I'm not complaining about the loss of the 10% magicka reduction, because magicka management becomes a lot easier with the CP system. At this point it only hurts stamina sorcs, which is kind of sad but as I mentioned I see the sorc as a magicka caster.

- Daedric Protection
This passive is pretty useless and could be replaced by a better one. The sorcerer has no ability or passive that supports its healing ability. Why not change Daedric Protection to:
"Increses the healing done by (3%/5%) while having a deadric summoning ability slotted"

This could bring the sorc in line with the other classes in terms of healing.

Active abilities:

- Negate Magic
the negate has to come on one lvl with the other defensive ultimates. Since it only negates magic effects on impact and not during the whole duration, which was extremely strong and maybe too strong. The absorption field is a pretty useless morph since the major buffs can be obtained by other non ultimate abilities (radiant aura, potions, rapid manouver).
For the suppresion field there is a simple solution:
Increase the dmg reduction to 30% (major buff) like the vail of blades and keep the spellpenetration buff and the rest.

- Cristal Fragments
I like the changes here with the extra dmg when it procs. The problem is that the sorcerer doesnt have an instant cast skill to spam in order to proc crystal fragments. The only option here is crushing shock / force shock. And it should proc on all skills including streak and encase.
Increasing the proc chance (maybe arround 50%) could be a way to bring the sorcs dps in line with other classes.

- Encase
The spell is fine, and i also like the morphs, but i would make one suggestion: Make it a groud target like lightning flood, with a circle area (6-8m radius). That would be really cool and give the sorcerer a ranged unique root and not a bad copy of the DKs talons.

- Lightning Flood
I really like the increased duration. Whoever says it doesnt hurt should do some maths. Even the 6 sec morph is an extremely good (aoe) DOT. The 10 sec morph is the best non ultimate DOT in the game, ticking every 0.5 sec with 800 dmg for 10 sec (15.000 dmg) on my vet 14 altmer sorc with 90 CP set. In combination with the valkyn skoria set this is awesome. Additionally it has 28m range and it provides a synergy.
But there are two downsides:
Placing it feels somehow unresponsive, since its a ground effect and the animation is pretty slow.
The radius is pretty small, so when the boss moves its hard to use.

- Bound Armor
Lets make it short. The minor armor buff is like nothing. Only the 8% magicka/stamina depending on the morph is worth slotting it, but does it have to be a toggle and waste 2 slots on my bar?

- Pets in general
The fact that they are toggles is a real problem, because they take too much space on both bars and you have almost no options when you try to play them effectively (magelight, deadric prey, empowering ward, entropy/surge, filler (cristal shards/force shock)). No Place for AOE or execute, so its no good build for most of the dungeons and trials. Additionally the pets take heals, that are aimed at players and trigger boss mechanics like the lightning chain in AA.

Im not a fan of pets in endgame content and the sorcerers should not have to depend on them to be able to compete in terms of dps.

- Surge
I have i huge problem with this ability and how it performs in 1.6. and here is why:
The unmorphed version gives weapon damage. That was fine before 1.6 because the sorcerer could buff the dmg of destruction staffs and the healing with the resto staffs like no other class. In 1.6 they scale with spelldmg, like all sorcerer abilities. So why doesnt the base version give spelldmg and only one morph give weapon dmg?
There is no need for a morph that gives spell and weapon dmg since hybrid builds cant compete with specialized builds since the removal of softcaps.
The biggest problem is the change to the healing it does. Every class has a spell that does dmg and heals the caster (T: Puncturing Sweep, DK: Inhale, NB: sap essence), and the healing is increased based on the enemies hit. The sorcerer used to have crit surge, that was working somehow similar. Now they implemented a cooldown for the heal, so even if you hit multiple targets you only get one heal every 0,25 sec. If you are unlucky there will be a dot criting and your high dmg ability (meteor, impulse) cant give you a heal thx to the cooldown. The other classes dont have this cooldown, why?
The videos above (under survivability) show the imbalance between the selfheals from sorcs and temps. I dont have a NB or DK but its enough to show that one class is able to do it. I dont want you to nerf all other classes. Just bring the sorcerer back on their lvl with a change like this:
Remove the cooldown of surge, limit the crit heals to 6 targets (puncturing sweep doesnt even have a limit, see video above) and adjust the heals with the % factor (used to be 65%, got reduced to 40% in 1.6). I agree when people say critsurge was too strong, but at the moment its not worth its slot on the bar.

- Surge vs. Entropy
Its not only the cooldown that made surge redundant, but the buff to entropy. Entropy provides the same spelldmg buff and also some heals, that can be higher than the surge heals when casted on multiple targets.
Additional Entropy effects:
- it deals dmg over time
- if morphed it gives 8% more max health in addition to the 2% magicka and 2% magicka reg from the mages guild passives
- the next spell deals 20% more dmg (if you have a cristal fragments proc thats almost 2k more dmg)
- it cost 1/3 of surge

So when it comes to single target dmg entropy will allways be superior. Without the cooldown removed surge wont be in any sorcerer build anymore. It used to be the most favorite ability of many sorcs and it used to be unique.

- Dark Exchange
As a channeled ability its absolutely useless in fights. In PVE you loose to much dps/healing when you cant cast for 4 seconds, in PVP its like praying to the eight (Edit: no offense here, Tiber Septim/Talos is born after ESO) just before you are dead.
If you want to make it useful make it a toggle, but you should be able to perform spells while its active. It will drain your stamina until its gone or you turn it of. This wont unbalance pvp since you are dead when you run out of stamina (no dodging blocking or CC break).

- Deadric Mines
This is the only ability that might be even worse then dark exchange. Its costs are extremely high, its not a ground target like the flame rune from the mages guild but a player cast. The cooldown against bosses makes it useless in terms of single target dps. I dont know if ppl use it against players but in most of the situations the flame rune will be dealing more dmg and it stuns (morph) instead of the immobilize.

Every other class got a new ability with 1.6. The sorcerer didnt get one, while there would be so many options and a real need for a unique instant cast ability that does moderate dmg. There are some ideas in the forums, but I want to share my own ones:

Replace Deadric Dines
Insert an ability like a dark magic ball, maybe a fire ball (dark fire ball) that
- has 28m range
- is instant castable
- deals a bit more dmg than force shock
- maybe a little aoe dmg like the curse when its a fire ball
Morphs:
- 1 morph that reduces the targets spellresistance (minor debuff)
- 1 morph that restores magicka over time to the group like the NB are able to heal the group a bit

An ability like this would solve several sorc problems: They could have an own "filler" for some rotations and dont rely on the destro staff/force shock anymore. We could provide some unique support to the group (magicka recovery, a debuff no one else provides).

You are the developers. Be creative and give us something we can play with and support the group. Give raidgroups a reason to take some sorcs with them.

Finally I want to say it took me a lot of time doing the tests and writing this down to provide some feedback. I would appreciate it if i could get a response from @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ or anyone else at ZOS that this feedback is read and gets discussed.

Thanks everyone for reading

Edit (20.02.2015, 11:01 am CET)
First i want to thank all of you for your kind replys, specially for the additional feedback. I hope the discussion stays as constructive as it is at the moment. When i find the time i will update the first post here and sum up some of the ideas provided by the comments.

- edited the passives section (expert mage was discussed two times in there)
- Edited some spelling

I want to keep the additional feedback seperate, so you see the new ideas from the comments and who suggested them.

Stamina Sorcerers would like to have some more options, maybe a Cristal Shards morph based on stamina or adding weapon dmg to the Expert Mage passive.

Some feedback was about Sorcs as healers (@Seraphyel, @Nihil, @Ramasee ). My suggestion was to change the Deadric Portection passive, but some of the comments came up with a better idea: Adding the minor meding buff to some skill like surge, bound armor or twilight matriarch (see below in detail).

Surge
- Remove the cooldown (argumentation see above). There is no reason atm to keep it since no similar ability has it.

- Add some sort of dmg buff (e.g. extra shock or elemental dmg) to make up for the high cost
or
- Add minor (or major) mending buff (8% or 30% more healing done), depending on what is balanced better. My feeling is that a major buff would be too strong.

Twilight Matriarch (Sommon Twilight morph)
- Remove the heal when player's health falls below 35%
- Add minor mending buff (8% more healing done) for the player
I really like this idea of having a pet that supports my healing power. The sorcerer could be able to provide sustained heals for a group while using the restoration staff.

Deadric Protection
Let it increase the healing done or make the health regen bonus a group bonus.

Deadric Mines
Some people (@pppontus, @Nihil) find this skill useful and wish some minor tweaks instead of removing it, giving the sorcerer a high dps melee range ability. The boss immunity could get changed, so that the 2nd and 3rd mine deal less dmg instead of 0 dmg.

Negate Magic
Add minor force buff to increase the crit dmg (@Nihil)

Edit (20.02.2015, 18:33 CET)

After some more testing, specially the selfheal using the Clannfear I created a "tank" build. With more then 30k Magicka you get more magicka back than the Clannfear costs plus it heals you for 35%. To show the power of this combination I made a video (the fight starts at 50% and stays basically the same):

http://youtu.be/AlznkZJOFX0

I accidently stopped the recoding to early, so here is the gear and setup:

http://youtu.be/OtwqwYBBa0U

I don't like this mechanic, it feels like an exploid to have a 35% selfheal basically for free (you even get a little more magicka back than you spend). I dont want this to be ingame, its not balanced at all. Sorcs need some kind of selfheal, but to have a free selfheal is too much. We are not that bad.
My suggestion to solve this problem: Change rabate passive so that it only gives magicka back when the Clannfear dies, not when you call him back. So you would have to pay 4.5k-6.5k magicka for a 35% heal. That should be somehow balanced compared to the DKs dragonblood or the Templars Breath of Life.

Edit (25.02.2015, 9:09 am CET)

This is the final edit in this thread until update 6. I'm not sure if i will open another thread after update 6 goes live with the final changes, because my main goal to lead the DEVs attention to the real sorcerer problems in PVE is archieved. The only thing we can do now is wait for their new ideas.

Other edits concerning skills:

- Cristal Fragments (Cristal Shards morph)
Many people complained about the global cooldown in 1.5 that it was pretty long even for the instant cast proc. In 1.6.4 it feels a bit better but still longer than the animation and a lot longer than a crushing shock. So it might be connected to the casting time that got reduced to 1.0 sec. Reducing the GCD of the instant cast proc would make it more responsive.

- Bound Armor
This has already been pointed out in some other threads, but I would like to add it here too.
The bound armor always overwrites the look of the armor you are wearing, even when you wear a costume. Suggestions:
Add an option to turn the visual effect off, like you did it for the magelight.
Make the armor transparent, maybe like the conjured armor in skyrim or the dragon aspect shout:

Edit (03.03.2015)

The Clannfear "exploit" was addressed by adding a casting time of 1.3 sec. So it is useless for PVP and for tanks now since you can't cast it while blocking anymore. In my opinion changing the rebate passive so that it only gives magician back when the pet is killed, not when its called back would have been the way to go, so we had a heal that can be used somehow instant but it would have been expensive. So the sorcs end up with no reliable heal at all, even worse than in 1.5 thanks to the surge cooldown.
All other discussed problems weren't adressed in 1.6.5.

Edit (20.03.2015)

So version 2.0.1 has hit live some days ago and nothing has changed for the sorc so far I want to add some comments here about what I've experienced so far.
- Surge doesn't provide a reliable heal anymore. I almost completely dropped it in dungeons or trials, and use structured entropy (cheaper, more dmg, better passives)
- Liquid lightning is a good DOT but could need some more range in the base version in order to provide better AOE dmg and allow bosses to move a little more. Why not 5m radius like the DKs eruption and 7-8m for the lightning flood morph?
Other class AOEs have 8m range (sap essence, inhale, solar barrage)
- The changes to rebate made this passive almost useless. It was changed to avoid exploiting the clannfear heal, but by adding a casting time it became useless for tanks and PVP. One point I would like to add here is the following: when the storm Attro ultimate dies he triggers the rebate passive, so it used to give about 4.5k magicka back. Now it's 1.4k on my vet14 sorc. Conpare that to the DKs battle roar pasdive, giving them almost 10k of each magicka, health and stamina when you use an ultimate costing 250.
- Pets are diying in many situations or trigger mechanics so they are no real option as toggles to increase the DPS or provide some utility.
- the sorc would have options to increase the DPS but most of the are toggles so they take a lot of space on your skillbars. Space you usually don't have.
- the DPS highly depends on CF procs and if you don't get one for some sec they drop really fast. Sometimes the animation is bugged so you don't know that you have a proc. An increase of the proc rate (maybe 50%) or a different mechanic (like get a guaranteed prix after 2-3 spell casts) could solve several problems:
The DPS would be more constant and a bit higher. The heal component would be a bit more reliable. Finally a sorcs class ability woul become the main dmg ability (atm it's still force pulse)


I would like to see a complete rework of the sorcs passive abilities and some actives to bring it in line with other classes in terms of utility, healing buffs and stamina management for tanking.

Emma_Overload

The COOLDOWN on Critical Surge heals MUST be removed! This is the reason Sorcerer HPS is so low.

Why was this unnecessary, unsolicited and unwanted change ever made in the first place?

macabrex

Thanks for your feedback. You are right. We will nerf expert mage in next patch. That %2 is too much.

florian.billeb16_ESO

Excellent post. you point all the problem of sorcerer...

Now, we can just wait a real response of Zenimax

Erock25

Very good write up and I agree with most of what you say. I particularly like the suggestion about changing dark exchange to a toggle that lets us cast while it is in effect. Dark Exchange is useless otherwise. I'm also a fan of the idea that Encase should be ground targeted effect and think even Mines should get this treatment as well. Surge is in such a poor state. Rally is better than Critical Surge and Entropy is better than Power Surge and it isn't even close when factoring in ability cost. I get why they nerf the healing even though you make a very compelling argument when comparing to other classes abilities to do dmg while self healing, but I have no idea why they made Surge redundant with other skills that are better.

I do disagree that Sorc should be ranged magicka casters always. In a game like this where other classes can do multiple things pretty well, it is very limiting to make Sorc focus on only one build, ESPECIALLY when they don't even excel by a wide margin at that task. I have always tried to focus on a stamina build myself, and it is a damn shame that 1.6 has been nerf after nerf for stamina sorc. We lose our weapon dmg advantage, gain relatively zero useful stamina abilities (no dmging ones at all compared to the other classes receiving multiples), and get a very troubling nerf to Expert Mage for a stamina build. While I have been focusing on stamina DPS, I can't find any reason why a sorc tank would be any different and only nerfed as well because of Expert Mage change.

Basically, I feel similar to you about Sorc overall. I think magicka DPS could use some tweaks. They don't do enough DPS to justify their lack of utility and need some tweaks to make them better. As far as tanking and stamina DPS goes, Sorc have been all but forgotten and it is a damn shame that the developers have basically given up on it.

CP5

You outlined a lot of the glaring flaws with the sorcerer class and I hope ZOS will listen to the ideas the community is putting forward. As for Negate's 8% dr, I wouldn't make that the same passive as Veil of Blades. It would be nice if the buffs Negate's morphs provided were useful but making it the same as another (arguably better) ultimate would help but not as much. It would be a step in the right direction but I would hope the morphs would be given something unique and interesting, rather than tri pot regen or circle of protection copied.

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is a great post, and is the exact type of feedback that we'd like to see moving forward. Gil.Galad doesn't necessarily agree with some of the changes to the Sorcerer, and that's ok, but he explains his reasoning and provides suggestions after some testing on the PTS.

We've passed this along to the gameplay team, and will work on getting some answers for you all.

Max2497

Very well written summary of the problems with sorcs. I hope that Zenimax listens to your comments and suggestions. It's been difficult to find a real analysis of the current state of the sorc with all of the "Zenimax hates sorc" threads clogging the forum. So thank you again for constructing a well written argument with evidence to prove your points.

GilGalad

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is a great post, and is the exact type of feedback that we'd like to see moving forward. Gil.Galad doesn't necessarily agree with some of the changes to the Sorcerer, and that's ok, but he explains his reasoning and provides suggestions after some testing on the PTS.

We've passed this along to the gameplay team, and will work on getting some answers for you all.

Thank you for the reply and I'm looking forward to your answers!

Arki

Sorry, couldn't resist ....

Gil-galad was an Elven-king.
Of him the harpers sadly sing;
the last whose realm was fair and free
between the Mountains and the Sea.

His sword was long, his lance was keen.
His shining helm afar was seen;
the countless stars of heaven's field
were mirrored in his silver shield.

But long ago he rode away,
and where he dwelleth none can say;
for into darkness fell his star
in Mordor where the shadows are.

Fayaburn

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is a great post, and is the exact type of feedback that we'd like to see moving forward. Gil.Galad doesn't necessarily agree with some of the changes to the Sorcerer, and that's ok, but he explains his reasoning and provides suggestions after some testing on the PTS.

We've passed this along to the gameplay team, and will work on getting some answers for you all.

Thank you Gil.Galad for taking the time to redact this post properly. We as Sorcerers truely lack people with enough insight on the mechanics of this game to be able to point out accurately the flaws of our class. This makes your post and the few accurate ones extremely valuable.

Thank you also @ZOS_GinaBruno for aknowledging this thread existence and value. If I had any claim, it would be that even if this post does not ends up in any change to the class because game designers do not share the point of view exposed here, we would be grateful to get some sort of feedback about why. We clearly lack a vision about your opinion and previsions for the class which is why we are so concerned at the moment.

@pppontus, here is a well constructed post discussing the actual flaws that one might attribute to Sorcerers. It is also free from non-realistic claims and statements. Maybe we can engage in a real debate for once.

ItsRejectz

Awesome post and very well thought out. Like all the suggestions and hope the team look at them.

A1exeR

Good post, but i think do not need to touch daedric mines. Many sorcs use them in pvp.
I think most useless skill is rune prison. He needs or alteration or removal.

Dracane

Awesome. Great work, thank you very much for the tests and so on. I like some of your suggestions.
I am missing a statement about Surge damage compared to Entropy though. You know, because of the Entropy DoT, which increases the DPS.

But there is only 1 thing, that I don't agree with

Gil.Galad wrote: »

.

- Dark exchange
As a channeled ability its absolutely useless in fights. In PVE you loose to much dps/healing when you cant cast for 4 seconds, in PVP its like praying to the nine just before you are dead.

The eight*

Yusuf

@Gil.Galad might have just saved us Sorcerers from extinction in end-game-pve :O

Gyudan

Dracane wrote: »

I am missing a statement about Surge damage compared to Entropy though. You know, because of the Entropy DoT, which increases the DPS.

You can find that here.

Thanks Gil.Galad for taking the time to write this thread.

rotaugen454

I wish that I could give the OP an Insightful, Agree AND Awesome. This is the sort of detailed and calm analysis that is more likely to draw dev attention, as opposed to "Sorcs nerfed to useless, because I say so!".

Reykice

Good thread!

They really should just buff destro staff, it would benefit all the casters, up the damage a bit on CS maybe just increase the proc chance and bonus damage a bit... make pets only use one slot or no slots(would be a unique class mechanic) and so on...

Also, the Surge cooldown is stupid... what is a dot crits right before my 10k crit... and i get healed for 100... its worthless. Not to mention that for some reason the glass cannon with no mitigation gets the lower healing per crit...

With the armor change i was a bit shocked to figure out i have no mitigation in light armor... and then i find out that i`m not even a glass cannon... i`m more of a glass spoon as the sorc damage is a lot lower compared to what a DK has. Not like we can go stamina lol we have like 2 stamina morphs and none does any damage.

They also need to think that while we have a lot of cool stuff to pick from to increase our dps, we only have 5 slots... so we won`t be able to get it all.

Reykice

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I wish that I could give the OP an Insightful, Agree AND Awesome. This is the sort of detailed and calm analysis that is more likely to draw dev attention, as opposed to "Sorcs nerfed to useless, because I say so!".

To be fair i think most people were pissed when they figured out that a sorcerer does 20% less damage than any class, has less survivability(in light armor) and much higher ability costs... makes you wonder what were they testing internally.

That said its fine as long as its somewhat fixed... people love playing ranged casters, the sorcerer is the traditional one yet none of the speed runs use one because they are bad... and this is in 1.5.

If 1.6 is release like this not only it won`t be used in speed runs, most groups will start kicking sorcerers because why get the dps who does 20% less dps compared to another class?

Zabernat

Thanks @Gil.Galad for the refreshing post! I hope all of the concerns for the Sorc are addressed because of your observations and for the fact that you approached this with a level head and facts.

Personally, I prefer to play whatever class/race I feel like playing and hope in the future ESO will continue to foster that. I realize right now there are specific class/race/specializations that stand out far above the others and believe ZOS was attempting to find a balanced play style for everyone through their changes. Of course the idea of this always angers people who picked their race/class/specialization because it was OP before a major change, but thanks to @ZOS_GinaBruno we at least know the dev teams care that they may have taken a rework too far.

GilGalad

Dracane wrote: »

But there is only 1 thing, that I don't agree with

Gil.Galad wrote: »

.

- Dark exchange
As a channeled ability its absolutely useless in fights. In PVE you loose to much dps/healing when you cant cast for 4 seconds, in PVP its like praying to the nine just before you are dead.

The eight*

I'm not a good high elf and might never see the Summerset isles again for counting Talos as God but a neutral post also has to respect Talos and the Nords.

Concerning surge and entropy:
Im pretty sure I discussed it above but here it is again:
When it comes to single target damage entropy is way better than surge. Not only the dot, it also increases the dmg of the next attack by 20%. For aoe I would take surge if the cooldown gets removed. The dmg of the dot will be extremely small compared to the aoe dmg.

GreyRanger

I hope this thread will lead to a more constructive conversation and engagement from the Dev team. It is funny that every other class got one crummy ability replaced with a new ability that was intended to be more useful. I hadn't noticed that. I can't wait to read the dev response promised by @ZOS_GinaBruno.

While I agree with @Gil.Galad's analysis regarding the magicka DPS caster, I hope the devs are also taking into account sorcerers who would like to play in a stamina DPS role, tank, or healer.

Dracane

Gyudan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I am missing a statement about Surge damage compared to Entropy though. You know, because of the Entropy DoT, which increases the DPS.

You can find that here.

Thanks Gil.Galad for taking the time to write this thread.

No, that's not what I meant. You haven't suggested, that Surge needs a damage buff of some sort. You were only talking about the cost and the heal. I was only saying, I was missing the damage aspect

Holycannoli

Good feedback but I wish it addressed stamina sorcerers. My imperial stamina sorcerer (my main and only high level character) is really useless in 1.6. If I could race change him to altmer I wouldn't mind so much because I could at least make him a magicka sorcerer, but as it stands there's no reason to be a stamina sorcerer and an imperial magicka sorcerer is a waste of a character slot.

(my imperial sorcerer is a hybrid - destro staff and bow. All attribute points in health, light armor set with all magicka enchants for PvE, medium armor set with all stamina enchants for PvP. It worked fine in 1.5 but 1.6 killed him)

sput4ueb17_ESO

[quote="Gil.Galad;

Replace deadric mines
Insert an ability like a dark magic ball, maybe a fire ball (dark fire ball) that
- has 28m range
- is instant castable
- deals a bit more dmg than force shock
- maybe a little aoe dmg like the curse when its a fire ball
Morphs:
- 1 morph that reduces the targets spellresistance (minor debuff)
- 1 morph that restores magicka over time to the group like the NB are able to heal the group a bit

An ability like this would solve several sorc problems: They could have an own "filler" for some rotations and dont rely on the destro staff/force shock anymore. We could provide some unique support to the group (magicka recovery, a debuff no one else provides).

You are the developers. Be creative and give us something we can play with and support the group. Give raidgroups a reason to take some sorcs with them.

[/quote]

++
very good post - well placed all the problems that a sorcerer is facing . Especially the need of 1 skill as a filler and instant cast.

Crossing hands here that Zos will get the picture of what is happening with the Sorcerer.

Dracane

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

But there is only 1 thing, that I don't agree with

Gil.Galad wrote: »

.

- Dark exchange
As a channeled ability its absolutely useless in fights. In PVE you loose to much dps/healing when you cant cast for 4 seconds, in PVP its like praying to the nine just before you are dead.

The eight*

I'm not a good high elf and might never see the Summerset isles again for counting Talos as God but a neutral post also has to respect Talos and the Nords.

Concerning surge and entropy:
Im pretty sure I discussed it above but here it is again:
When it comes to single target damage entropy is way better than surge. Not only the dot, it also increases the dmg of the next attack by 20%. For aoe I would take surge if the cooldown gets removed. The dmg of the dot will be extremely small compared to the aoe dmg.

I normally would shot a few Thalmor quotes and a few Thalmor rules at you
I don't accept Talos. But this was not the reason, why I was saying this.

Talos was not even alive to the times of The Elder Scrolls Online. He was born 300 year later or so. This means, there are no 9 at this point.

C0pp3rhead

Thanks for making this post. Hopefully we'll see the devs come to their senses next time around.

Seraphyel

I think I will make some additional suggestions, similar things are said by the OP but I want to say and make them again:

Sorcerer as healers:

As we know now, Sorcerers may be the least adequate class for being a healer. They seem to have a better ressource management, but the changes made to Surge and the overall lack of a healer dedicated passive or active ability make the Sorcerer the least versatile healer. They were even surpassed by DKs with 1.6.

How to solve this?

Give the Sorcerer some kind of off-healing pets. We got the Twilight that heals us if we drop below 30% health, but it could be revamped in something like this:

* Applies an AoE-HoT to the group that lasts for 10 seconds and heals for X. 20 second CD.

* When a target drops below 50% life, the Twilight will heal it dependent on the health lost - channeled heal with a 10 second CD.

A similar thing should been added to the Atronarch - give it a morph where it heals instead of dealing damage.

* Heals the target with the lowest health for X amount and every character within 5m range for 50% of the initial heal. 6 second CD.

* Shield the target with the highest aggro for X. 8 second CD.


Passive:

Daedric Protection: Should be made a group-wide buff with higher percentages.

Actives:

Bound Armor: Why not add some kind of healing buff? As long as you have the armor activated, your healings are 15% more effective OR 15% of your dealt damage are turned into group heal .


Those tweaks would make the Sorc a different and better healer. Why not heal with the help of our pets?
______________

Dark Magic:

Daedric Mines: Give this ability a ranged morph, e.g. something like this - apply 3 Daedric Mines to your target. Each mine explodes after you dealt X damage. Only one mine can be triggered within 5 seconds. Only one target can be infected with Daedric Mines. Lasts for 30 seconds - if all three mines last 30 seconds, they will explode for 50% of the total damage. 28m range.

Rune Prison & Encase: Fuse those two into one.

...

more to come.

Vis

I cringe when imagining all the new and creative ways the devs can nerf us in the next patch for "our own good."

I don't agree with everything the OP said (i.e. I still think reflect and absorb fest is a problem) but some of his points are good starting places.

As for @ZOS_GinaBruno a lot that was posted was a rehash of what many of us having been saying for months. To praise a single post as worthy of being "passed along" suggests you have not done the same with the many other complaints lodged by many many other sorcs. Have you been passing those too?

Erock25

Vis wrote: »

As for @ZOS_GinaBruno a lot that was posted is a rehash of what many of us having been saying for months. To praise a single post as worthy of being "passed along" suggests you have not done the same with the many other complaints lodged by many many other sorcs. Have you been passing those too?

I'm not so sure. I think she hates me as I have tagged her and PM'd her way too many stamina sorc ideas! Maybe I'm blocked.

cozmon3c_ESO

i like how you only get a reasonable dev response if you are talking about pve, lol.