1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

GilGalad

Exstazik wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Edited the first post as reaction to the 1.6.5 patch notes.
I hope there will be some changes in the near future, until then sorcs gonna have a bad time.

Started to level a DK 5 days ago. It's just a joke when you see how it's abilities synergize and how powerful DKs are. He is VR1 now.

Started templar.If someone want my negate for trials /w with fair price

No one needs the nerfed negate. But you could offer your Attro to some players who want more DPS!

Templar is easy to level. All you need is puncturing sweep (jabs morph), maybe breath of life. The remaining slots can be used to level skills that you want to use later. When you get the sun shield (-> blazing shield) you might get bored because everything is so incredibly easy...

Psychobunni

ZOS_ShannonM
mod
Hello folks,
We see that there is a lot of feedback on sorcerers so we are closing this thread so that we can consolidate all the feedback in one place. Please visit this thread
for any feedback on sorcerers. This will allow the feedback to reach the devs in a single place. As always we appreciate all feedback, good and bad, but ask that you keep your posts civil, constructive, and on topic.
Thank you for understanding.


^From another thread directing me here. My feedback is that ZOS should stop trying to silence and contain players who have not liked/agreed/whatever you want to call it with the sorc changes since announcement.

LISTEN to your players and stop doing things to the game no one or a small minority wants and THEN have the gall to lie to us and say changes are from listening to "our community" ....or "we prefer not to use the term nerf, but rather lift other classes up to the same level" or whatever blather was spouted on ESO live.

Listen, don't lie, and be at least semi-honest in explanations of changes and why whoever makes these horribad decisions made them. Offer some sort of reasonable explanation why horribad is better for the game over all in the long run....you know, communicate.

Reykice

Looks like the *** forum police is closing any other sorc thread to make us post here... this way they minimize the impact we have while promising that the devs will look at this.

Like anyone still believes them...

Anyway better quit or reroll now i guess, they really don't know how to balance the sorc.

Dazin93

@ZOS_ShannonM @ZOS_GinaBruno
If you are going to force players to consolidate all their feedback about a specific class into one thread or area (and censor them when they don't) you should at least create class forums or move this thread to the general discussion and sticky it because it is about LIVE builds now and has nothing to do with the PTS.

Also, I would expect every other class issue thread to be treated the same.

Erock25

@ZOS_ShannonM Is this serious? Close any and all Sorc threads and make them be hidden on PTS servers? I hope I can look forward to all class threads being closed in General Discussion and Alliance War from now on.

loki547

So the moderators have pointed us to this thread as the definitive place to voice Sorcerer balance and concerns. With that in mind I would like to make some suggestions. As for myself I’ve been playing a Sorcerer since beta and have not rolled any other characters, with 90-95% of the time spent in PvP. After testing extensively in 1.6 on PTS and playing it today on live I would like to submit the following SIMPLE AND EASY suggestions to balance the Sorcerer Class for 1.6 and beyond. These are listing in order of importance.
PASSIVES
Daedric Protection should increase Stamina Regeneration 10%/20% instead of Health Regeneration. There is perhaps no stat more useless to Sorcerers and all classes in general than Health Regeneration. This change would bring stamina mitigation in line with other classes as well as make full Stamina or Hybrid Sorcerers more viable.

Blood Magic should restore 4%/8% Max Health AND Max Stamina. This would give Sorcerers some much needed stamina management that all other classes have, would again make Stamina/Hybrid Sorcerers more viable and would also encourage more use of the Dark Magic line.

Increase Disintegration Proc to 10%. The damage for Disintegration received a pretty big stealth nerf in 1.6. Increasing the proc chance to 10% (where is originally was) would balance the significant damage loss the passive received in 1.6

Expert Mage should have both 10% reduced cost for Storm Calling abilities AND 2% Spell Power for abilities slotted. Or you can just give us the 10% reduced cost and we’ll call it even steven.

SKILLS
Bound Armor and Pets should not be toggle/take up 1 space on your bar. This would greatly encourage people to use these abilities. It’s very limiting to lose 4 slots if you want to use two pets for a pet build.

Increase Radius/Range of Encase and its morphs. Currently you have to be in kissing range to trap targets with this skill.

Reduce Crystal Shards casting time to .75 seconds. Increase overall DPS and make the non Crystal Frags morph useful (I forget what it’s call since I’ve never used it)

A1exeR

They give with one hand, and the other hand taken.
This is about clanfear.
He could be useful, but with cast time.. no.

Ryuho

Psychobunni wrote: »

ZOS_ShannonM
mod
Hello folks,
We see that there is a lot of feedback on sorcerers so we are closing this thread so that we can consolidate all the feedback in one place. Please visit this thread
for any feedback on sorcerers. This will allow the feedback to reach the devs in a single place. As always we appreciate all feedback, good and bad, but ask that you keep your posts civil, constructive, and on topic.
Thank you for understanding.


^From another thread directing me here. My feedback is that ZOS should stop trying to silence and contain players who have not liked/agreed/whatever you want to call it with the sorc changes since announcement.

LISTEN to your players and stop doing things to the game no one or a small minority wants and THEN have the gall to lie to us and say changes are from listening to "our community" ....or "we prefer not to use the term nerf, but rather lift other classes up to the same level" or whatever blather was spouted on ESO live.

Listen, don't lie, and be at least semi-honest in explanations of changes and why whoever makes these horribad decisions made them. Offer some sort of reasonable explanation why horribad is better for the game over all in the long run....you know, communicate.

I made that thread, and trust me i feel silenced ;/

Exstazik

Pets attack: can't be blocked,can't be reflected
Rune Prison:reduce cast time to 1 sec.
Endless Fury:now scales from weapon power and max stamina
Lightning Splash:if the target stands in it more than 2 sec.Target affected by snare for 8 sec.
Energized:add to already exist effect :activating storm calling abilities restore 5% max magicka(5% max stamina) which is higher
Daedric MinesAlso afflicts enemy with Major Defile, which reduces the effectiveness of healing on them by 30% for 10 seconds.

olsborg

A1exeR wrote: »

They give with one hand, and the other hand taken.
This is about clanfear.
He could be useful, but with cast time.. no.

I had plans to switch from twilight to clannfear just because cast time in pvp is a deathsentence, but now, I wont use pets at all, might not even bother with sorceror at all, my nb hit vr1 yesterday.

byrom101b16_ESO

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Edited the first post as reaction to the 1.6.5 patch notes.
I hope there will be some changes in the near future, until then sorcs gonna have a bad time.

Started to level a DK 5 days ago. It's just a joke when you see how it's abilities synergize and how powerful DKs are. He is VR1 now.

I think I speak for a great many Sorcerer players in saying that we have all been impressed and pleased by your considerable efforts on our behalf.

You gave Zenimax a clinical and comprehensive analysis of the great many problems players of the class face, and made great suggestions about how these could be resolved in a balanced manner.

Your matter of fact and evidence based approach was a great counter to Pppontus's defence of his 'exceptional corner case fits all' claims and in terms any debate would be measured on, your arguments made the most sense, resonated with the most players (by a massive margin) and in the end, were the truest illustration on the real state of the class.

I for one have, frankly been insulted by Zenimax's dismissiveness, most pointedly in interview when challenged on Sorcerers. There really is no other way to describe being instantly marginalised by comments saying 'there will always be people that complain'.

He failed to 'put it diplomatically', but you succeeded, and made your case well, without resorting to counterpoint such as 'well, there will always be devs who make excuses...'.

That fact that you, and the vast majority of us who agree with you, either as primary Sorcerer players, or for instance as Guild GM's who simply won't take Sorcerers on Trials, have been ignored and fobbed off is a disgrace.

I think 'disgrace' is an entirely appropriate word for it.

So THANK YOU Gil.Galad.

I hope someone at Zenimax wakes up and smells the coffee you served... they'll single handedly be responsible for preventing falling profits from cancelled accounts.

... fingers crossed...

pppontus

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Edited the first post as reaction to the 1.6.5 patch notes.
I hope there will be some changes in the near future, until then sorcs gonna have a bad time.

Started to level a DK 5 days ago. It's just a joke when you see how it's abilities synergize and how powerful DKs are. He is VR1 now.

I think I speak for a great many Sorcerer players in saying that we have all been impressed and pleased by your considerable efforts on our behalf.

You gave Zenimax a clinical and comprehensive analysis of the great many problems players of the class face, and made great suggestions about how these could be resolved in a balanced manner.

Your matter of fact and evidence based approach was a great counter to Pppontus's defence of his 'exceptional corner case fits all' claims and in terms any debate would be measured on, your arguments made the most sense, resonated with the most players (by a massive margin) and in the end, were the truest illustration on the real state of the class.

I for one have, frankly been insulted by Zenimax's dismissiveness, most pointedly in interview when challenged on Sorcerers. There really is no other way to describe being instantly marginalised by comments saying 'there will always be people that complain'.

He failed to 'put it diplomatically', but you succeeded, and made your case well, without resorting to counterpoint such as 'well, there will always be devs who make excuses...'.

That fact that you, and the vast majority of us who agree with you, either as primary Sorcerer players, or for instance as Guild GM's who simply won't take Sorcerers on Trials, have been ignored and fobbed off is a disgrace.

I think 'disgrace' is an entirely appropriate word for it.

So THANK YOU Gil.Galad.

I hope someone at Zenimax wakes up and smells the coffee you served... they'll single handedly be responsible for preventing falling profits from cancelled accounts.

... fingers crossed...

Exceptional corner case, lol. But thank you for the mention.

Now, while you people continue complaining, I'm gonna go play my awesome Sorcerer.

You guys might want to start understanding that your views of how bad Sorcerers are.. they aren't objective. I mean the OP has some good points, and some people have made some good points of tweaks that could be made.. but people like you, speaking like it's the end of the world "oh reroll DK it's gonna be soo much beetteeer!!" .. it's not.

In 1.6 if you suck on a Sorc you're gonna suck on a DK, and an NB and a Templar. If you're good, you're going to be able to pull tons more DPS than the average player no matter what class you choose. In 1.6 DPS equates skill, not class, by any means at all. That's been proven by the fact that using the same build on 5+ different people on the same mob have yielded results all the way from 6K to 13K+.

Then again, I made a point in the whine-thread that was closed:

People who only play Sorcerers think the class sucks. People who play Sorcerers and other classes don't.

The grass is always greener on the other side. But by all means, reroll, it's fun and it makes you realise how classes actually compare to each other + it's a great advantage in PVP to know the ins and outs of all classes.

byrom101b16_ESO

pppontus wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Edited the first post as reaction to the 1.6.5 patch notes.
I hope there will be some changes in the near future, until then sorcs gonna have a bad time.

Started to level a DK 5 days ago. It's just a joke when you see how it's abilities synergize and how powerful DKs are. He is VR1 now.

I think I speak for a great many Sorcerer players in saying that we have all been impressed and pleased by your considerable efforts on our behalf.

You gave Zenimax a clinical and comprehensive analysis of the great many problems players of the class face, and made great suggestions about how these could be resolved in a balanced manner.

Your matter of fact and evidence based approach was a great counter to Pppontus's defence of his 'exceptional corner case fits all' claims and in terms any debate would be measured on, your arguments made the most sense, resonated with the most players (by a massive margin) and in the end, were the truest illustration on the real state of the class.

I for one have, frankly been insulted by Zenimax's dismissiveness, most pointedly in interview when challenged on Sorcerers. There really is no other way to describe being instantly marginalised by comments saying 'there will always be people that complain'.

He failed to 'put it diplomatically', but you succeeded, and made your case well, without resorting to counterpoint such as 'well, there will always be devs who make excuses...'.

That fact that you, and the vast majority of us who agree with you, either as primary Sorcerer players, or for instance as Guild GM's who simply won't take Sorcerers on Trials, have been ignored and fobbed off is a disgrace.

I think 'disgrace' is an entirely appropriate word for it.

So THANK YOU Gil.Galad.

I hope someone at Zenimax wakes up and smells the coffee you served... they'll single handedly be responsible for preventing falling profits from cancelled accounts.

... fingers crossed...

Exceptional corner case, lol. But thank you for the mention.

Now, while you people continue complaining, I'm gonna go play my awesome Sorcerer.

You guys might want to start understanding that your views of how bad Sorcerers are.. they aren't objective. I mean the OP has some good points, and some people have made some good points of tweaks that could be made.. but people like you, speaking like it's the end of the world "oh reroll DK it's gonna be soo much beetteeer!!" .. it's not.

In 1.6 if you suck on a Sorc you're gonna suck on a DK, and an NB and a Templar. If you're good, you're going to be able to pull tons more DPS than the average player no matter what class you choose. In 1.6 DPS equates skill, not class, by any means at all. That's been proven by the fact that using the same build on 5+ different people on the same mob have yielded results all the way from 6K to 13K+.

Then again, I made a point in the whine-thread that was closed:

People who only play Sorcerers think the class sucks. People who play Sorcerers and other classes don't.

The grass is always greener on the other side. But by all means, reroll, it's fun and it makes you realise how classes actually compare to each other + it's a great advantage in PVP to know the ins and outs of all classes.

Well now we have all been labelled 'whiners' by you, and you have made unsupported assumptions about what classes we play, or don't as well as our Sorcerers, not to mention how well you think we play... I think you've demonstrated enough bias, egocentricity, self-promotion and dismissiveness of other people to undermine any pretence of objectivity on your part.

Leave it to a self-promoter to fail too see the lack of objective analysis in their illustrations of their own brilliance.

The trouble is Pppontus, if you had made your point the same objective way as Gil.Galad, the 'look at how good I am' spin you put on it wouldn't have mattered, we could have used it as extra material to understand the root cause of the problem - perceived or otherwise.

But you didn't, and I made a point of asking you to do so - for instance, asking for comparative class performance videos or analysis. You didn't bother with any of that of course and so demonstrated clearly how truly 'interested' you were in objectivity.

I understand what objectivity looks like, I am a scientist by profession, and so understand the way an argument is credibly built up, with empirical evidence, comparative analysis, controls groups and indeed how to identify corner cases, or statistically 'aberrrant' examples relative irrelevance to the main body of evidence.

You, Pppontus, are not the main body of evidence, despite your assumptions to the contrary, and you have disregarded calls by me to make your evidence more credible.

Stating that on the back of one build, one set of vet 14 legendary gear and one type of conveniently static, short fight against a single mob is somehow representative of the state of an entire class in all PvE situations is like saying you can tell what a jigsaw picture looks like is from one peice without seeing the rest.

If you want to make your point, such as it is, you need to clearly present at the very least a representative sample of class performance with suitable analysis backed up by logically sound conclusions...

... not grandstand and resort to insults to those who don't see the world your way.

I wonder if you are up to it?

Because it seems to me, from my particular mixture of objective observation and subjective assessment that there is a credible chance that you are a Zenimax employee put here as a foil against the otherwise overwhelming feeling on this and related threads (now deleted/consolidated... a telling move).

Even if you aren't, you are most notably the only one widely supporting their current standpoint, that the vast majority of us feel is fundamentally wrong... supported with evidence... and analysis which addresses the issues.

Whatever your motives, you certainly never seem to miss an opportunity, on any relevant thread, to tell the rest of us how wrong and lacklustre we are, and how comparatively right and wonderful you are!

Bearing that in mind, a word of advice if I may. I don't claim to be the best at anything related to MMOs, and I would never consider undermining any point I wanted to make on a forum like this by publically polishing my epeen. I'm experienced, and I'm a good player, but I'm no longer bleeding edge - I voluntarily left that behind me after WoW and Age of Conan when my family life became busier.

That DOES NOT however mean my opinion means one iota less than yours, and you'll do well to phrase your responses in future with that in mind.

halfbadger

I have played quite a lot of sorcerer on the pts recently after reading about the buffs and I think they are in a good place right now.
I would add something to make their stamina dps unique like biting jabs or unstable flame but apart from that I think they just need a few little number tweaks.

pppontus

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Edited the first post as reaction to the 1.6.5 patch notes.
I hope there will be some changes in the near future, until then sorcs gonna have a bad time.

Started to level a DK 5 days ago. It's just a joke when you see how it's abilities synergize and how powerful DKs are. He is VR1 now.

I think I speak for a great many Sorcerer players in saying that we have all been impressed and pleased by your considerable efforts on our behalf.

You gave Zenimax a clinical and comprehensive analysis of the great many problems players of the class face, and made great suggestions about how these could be resolved in a balanced manner.

Your matter of fact and evidence based approach was a great counter to Pppontus's defence of his 'exceptional corner case fits all' claims and in terms any debate would be measured on, your arguments made the most sense, resonated with the most players (by a massive margin) and in the end, were the truest illustration on the real state of the class.

I for one have, frankly been insulted by Zenimax's dismissiveness, most pointedly in interview when challenged on Sorcerers. There really is no other way to describe being instantly marginalised by comments saying 'there will always be people that complain'.

He failed to 'put it diplomatically', but you succeeded, and made your case well, without resorting to counterpoint such as 'well, there will always be devs who make excuses...'.

That fact that you, and the vast majority of us who agree with you, either as primary Sorcerer players, or for instance as Guild GM's who simply won't take Sorcerers on Trials, have been ignored and fobbed off is a disgrace.

I think 'disgrace' is an entirely appropriate word for it.

So THANK YOU Gil.Galad.

I hope someone at Zenimax wakes up and smells the coffee you served... they'll single handedly be responsible for preventing falling profits from cancelled accounts.

... fingers crossed...

Exceptional corner case, lol. But thank you for the mention.

Now, while you people continue complaining, I'm gonna go play my awesome Sorcerer.

You guys might want to start understanding that your views of how bad Sorcerers are.. they aren't objective. I mean the OP has some good points, and some people have made some good points of tweaks that could be made.. but people like you, speaking like it's the end of the world "oh reroll DK it's gonna be soo much beetteeer!!" .. it's not.

In 1.6 if you suck on a Sorc you're gonna suck on a DK, and an NB and a Templar. If you're good, you're going to be able to pull tons more DPS than the average player no matter what class you choose. In 1.6 DPS equates skill, not class, by any means at all. That's been proven by the fact that using the same build on 5+ different people on the same mob have yielded results all the way from 6K to 13K+.

Then again, I made a point in the whine-thread that was closed:

People who only play Sorcerers think the class sucks. People who play Sorcerers and other classes don't.

The grass is always greener on the other side. But by all means, reroll, it's fun and it makes you realise how classes actually compare to each other + it's a great advantage in PVP to know the ins and outs of all classes.

Well now we have all been labelled 'whiners' by you, and you have made unsupported assumptions about what classes we play, or don't as well as our Sorcerers, not to mention how well you think we play... I think you've demonstrated enough bias, egocentricity, self-promotion and dismissiveness of other people to undermine any pretence of objectivity on your part.

Leave it to a self-promoter to fail too see the lack of objective analysis in their illustrations of their own brilliance.

The trouble is Pppontus, if you had made your point the same objective way as Gil.Galad, the 'look at how good I am' spin you put on it wouldn't have mattered, we could have used it as extra material to understand the root cause of the problem - perceived or otherwise.

But you didn't, and I made a point of asking you to do so - for instance, asking for comparative class performance videos or analysis. You didn't bother with any of that of course and so demonstrated clearly how truly 'interested' you were in objectivity.

I understand what objectivity looks like, I am a scientist by profession, and so understand the way an argument is credibly built up, with empirical evidence, comparative analysis, controls groups and indeed how to identify corner cases, or statistically 'aberrrant' examples relative irrelevance to the main body of evidence.

You, Pppontus, are not the main body of evidence, despite your assumptions to the contrary, and you have disregarded calls by me to make your evidence more credible.

Stating that on the back of one build, one set of vet 14 legendary gear and one type of conveniently static, short fight against a single mob is somehow representative of the state of an entire class in all PvE situations is like saying you can tell what a jigsaw picture looks like is from one peice without seeing the rest.

If you want to make your point, such as it is, you need to clearly present at the very least a representative sample of class performance with suitable analysis backed up by logically sound conclusions...

... not grandstand and resort to insults to those who don't see the world your way.

I wonder if you are up to it?

Because it seems to me, from my particular mixture of objective observation and subjective assessment that there is a credible chance that you are a Zenimax employee put here as a foil against the otherwise overwhelming feeling on this and related threads (now deleted/consolidated... a telling move).

Even if you aren't, you are most notably the only one widely supporting their current standpoint, that the vast majority of us feel is fundamentally wrong... supported with evidence... and analysis which addresses the issues.

Whatever your motives, you certainly never seem to miss an opportunity, on any relevant thread, to tell the rest of us how wrong and lacklustre we are, and how comparatively right and wonderful you are!

Bearing that in mind, a word of advice if I may. I don't claim to be the best at anything related to MMOs, and I would never consider undermining any point I wanted to make on a forum like this by publically polishing my epeen. I'm experienced, and I'm a good player, but I'm no longer bleeding edge - I voluntarily left that behind me after WoW and Age of Conan when my family life became busier.

That DOES NOT however mean my opinion means one iota less than yours, and you'll do well to phrase your responses in future with that in mind.

I would simply like to point out that the reason I am making my points in an angrier and less.. well-phrased manner now than when I started these discussions is because of the widespread complete ignorance and selective hearing of the so called "sorcerer community".

Everyone chooses to either ignore or flame every post I make detailing stuff that is objectively good and that has been incredibly buffed. Example: Liquid Lightning - strongest DOT in the game. "But what if it walks ouuuut /cry" - well in PVE your tank better effing make sure it doesn't. In PVP you need to use it strategically, breaches, on yourself or to deny access to areas or force your opponents to move (something that's actually incredibly strong and useful in PVP to get the upper hand).

That's just one example out of many, if you bring up ONE pet someone comes RUSHING in to scream "TOGGLEMANCER" at the top of their lungs. The community has also chose to ignore when members of the best PVE guild in the game posted Sorc testing, proclaiming that they're good as well as actually started leveling Sorcerers on live. Rerolling Sorc from DK, that is. All that - completely ignored - because it's much easier to ask for buffs so that you can get your 2-button rotation back (or whatever it is, I don't actually know what it is that you people think you're going to achieve).

I've also posted videos of soloing a WB, comparing Sorc to DK where the Sorc is clearly much easier and better for soloing PVE - also conveniently ignored by everyone who was previously asking for evidence.

I think you can see why I'm becoming a bit bitter in these situations and might not always come across as 100% constructive. I've said so before and I'll say it again, I have received countless PMs from other Sorcerers who have thanked me for taking this discussion with you guys, who have asked for advice etc. and that is the reason I keep doing it. You can't assume that the majority of Sorcs are unhappy just because you see mostly angry Sorcerers here, no one else wants to post here because of the ridiculously bad attitude some people have towards anyone who doesn't share their opinion.

Plenty have said they almost fell for the propaganda here thinking that they got nerfed or that they're bad etc. and if I can keep that from happening and instead inspire even one person to try things out for themselves first.. then it's worth it. For once, I am convinced that Zenimax has it right and no further buffs should be made until we see the changes fully in action down the line, if Magicka Sorcerers are buffed further right now there is a clear risk of tipping the scales too much in their favour and we'll end up with only Sorcs in raids instead because it's much, much safer than DKs. We need the balance to be at the level where your classes will make as little %:age difference as possible, and I think that is very close now.

Ryuho

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_ShannonM please move the topic to General English section. 1.6 is currently on the live servers so no one will look at the topic in PTS section. If you are removing similar topics, at least let this one to be available for the greater part of the community. Thx!

byrom101b16_ESO

pppontus wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Edited the first post as reaction to the 1.6.5 patch notes.
I hope there will be some changes in the near future, until then sorcs gonna have a bad time.

Started to level a DK 5 days ago. It's just a joke when you see how it's abilities synergize and how powerful DKs are. He is VR1 now.

I think I speak for a great many Sorcerer players in saying that we have all been impressed and pleased by your considerable efforts on our behalf.

You gave Zenimax a clinical and comprehensive analysis of the great many problems players of the class face, and made great suggestions about how these could be resolved in a balanced manner.

Your matter of fact and evidence based approach was a great counter to Pppontus's defence of his 'exceptional corner case fits all' claims and in terms any debate would be measured on, your arguments made the most sense, resonated with the most players (by a massive margin) and in the end, were the truest illustration on the real state of the class.

I for one have, frankly been insulted by Zenimax's dismissiveness, most pointedly in interview when challenged on Sorcerers. There really is no other way to describe being instantly marginalised by comments saying 'there will always be people that complain'.

He failed to 'put it diplomatically', but you succeeded, and made your case well, without resorting to counterpoint such as 'well, there will always be devs who make excuses...'.

That fact that you, and the vast majority of us who agree with you, either as primary Sorcerer players, or for instance as Guild GM's who simply won't take Sorcerers on Trials, have been ignored and fobbed off is a disgrace.

I think 'disgrace' is an entirely appropriate word for it.

So THANK YOU Gil.Galad.

I hope someone at Zenimax wakes up and smells the coffee you served... they'll single handedly be responsible for preventing falling profits from cancelled accounts.

... fingers crossed...

Exceptional corner case, lol. But thank you for the mention.

Now, while you people continue complaining, I'm gonna go play my awesome Sorcerer.

You guys might want to start understanding that your views of how bad Sorcerers are.. they aren't objective. I mean the OP has some good points, and some people have made some good points of tweaks that could be made.. but people like you, speaking like it's the end of the world "oh reroll DK it's gonna be soo much beetteeer!!" .. it's not.

In 1.6 if you suck on a Sorc you're gonna suck on a DK, and an NB and a Templar. If you're good, you're going to be able to pull tons more DPS than the average player no matter what class you choose. In 1.6 DPS equates skill, not class, by any means at all. That's been proven by the fact that using the same build on 5+ different people on the same mob have yielded results all the way from 6K to 13K+.

Then again, I made a point in the whine-thread that was closed:

People who only play Sorcerers think the class sucks. People who play Sorcerers and other classes don't.

The grass is always greener on the other side. But by all means, reroll, it's fun and it makes you realise how classes actually compare to each other + it's a great advantage in PVP to know the ins and outs of all classes.

Well now we have all been labelled 'whiners' by you, and you have made unsupported assumptions about what classes we play, or don't as well as our Sorcerers, not to mention how well you think we play... I think you've demonstrated enough bias, egocentricity, self-promotion and dismissiveness of other people to undermine any pretence of objectivity on your part.

Leave it to a self-promoter to fail too see the lack of objective analysis in their illustrations of their own brilliance.

The trouble is Pppontus, if you had made your point the same objective way as Gil.Galad, the 'look at how good I am' spin you put on it wouldn't have mattered, we could have used it as extra material to understand the root cause of the problem - perceived or otherwise.

But you didn't, and I made a point of asking you to do so - for instance, asking for comparative class performance videos or analysis. You didn't bother with any of that of course and so demonstrated clearly how truly 'interested' you were in objectivity.

I understand what objectivity looks like, I am a scientist by profession, and so understand the way an argument is credibly built up, with empirical evidence, comparative analysis, controls groups and indeed how to identify corner cases, or statistically 'aberrrant' examples relative irrelevance to the main body of evidence.

You, Pppontus, are not the main body of evidence, despite your assumptions to the contrary, and you have disregarded calls by me to make your evidence more credible.

Stating that on the back of one build, one set of vet 14 legendary gear and one type of conveniently static, short fight against a single mob is somehow representative of the state of an entire class in all PvE situations is like saying you can tell what a jigsaw picture looks like is from one peice without seeing the rest.

If you want to make your point, such as it is, you need to clearly present at the very least a representative sample of class performance with suitable analysis backed up by logically sound conclusions...

... not grandstand and resort to insults to those who don't see the world your way.

I wonder if you are up to it?

Because it seems to me, from my particular mixture of objective observation and subjective assessment that there is a credible chance that you are a Zenimax employee put here as a foil against the otherwise overwhelming feeling on this and related threads (now deleted/consolidated... a telling move).

Even if you aren't, you are most notably the only one widely supporting their current standpoint, that the vast majority of us feel is fundamentally wrong... supported with evidence... and analysis which addresses the issues.

Whatever your motives, you certainly never seem to miss an opportunity, on any relevant thread, to tell the rest of us how wrong and lacklustre we are, and how comparatively right and wonderful you are!

Bearing that in mind, a word of advice if I may. I don't claim to be the best at anything related to MMOs, and I would never consider undermining any point I wanted to make on a forum like this by publically polishing my epeen. I'm experienced, and I'm a good player, but I'm no longer bleeding edge - I voluntarily left that behind me after WoW and Age of Conan when my family life became busier.

That DOES NOT however mean my opinion means one iota less than yours, and you'll do well to phrase your responses in future with that in mind.

I would simply like to point out that the reason I am making my points in an angrier and less.. well-phrased manner now than when I started these discussions is because of the widespread complete ignorance and selective hearing of the so called "sorcerer community".

I rest my case Pppontus.

pppontus

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Edited the first post as reaction to the 1.6.5 patch notes.
I hope there will be some changes in the near future, until then sorcs gonna have a bad time.

Started to level a DK 5 days ago. It's just a joke when you see how it's abilities synergize and how powerful DKs are. He is VR1 now.

I think I speak for a great many Sorcerer players in saying that we have all been impressed and pleased by your considerable efforts on our behalf.

You gave Zenimax a clinical and comprehensive analysis of the great many problems players of the class face, and made great suggestions about how these could be resolved in a balanced manner.

Your matter of fact and evidence based approach was a great counter to Pppontus's defence of his 'exceptional corner case fits all' claims and in terms any debate would be measured on, your arguments made the most sense, resonated with the most players (by a massive margin) and in the end, were the truest illustration on the real state of the class.

I for one have, frankly been insulted by Zenimax's dismissiveness, most pointedly in interview when challenged on Sorcerers. There really is no other way to describe being instantly marginalised by comments saying 'there will always be people that complain'.

He failed to 'put it diplomatically', but you succeeded, and made your case well, without resorting to counterpoint such as 'well, there will always be devs who make excuses...'.

That fact that you, and the vast majority of us who agree with you, either as primary Sorcerer players, or for instance as Guild GM's who simply won't take Sorcerers on Trials, have been ignored and fobbed off is a disgrace.

I think 'disgrace' is an entirely appropriate word for it.

So THANK YOU Gil.Galad.

I hope someone at Zenimax wakes up and smells the coffee you served... they'll single handedly be responsible for preventing falling profits from cancelled accounts.

... fingers crossed...

Exceptional corner case, lol. But thank you for the mention.

Now, while you people continue complaining, I'm gonna go play my awesome Sorcerer.

You guys might want to start understanding that your views of how bad Sorcerers are.. they aren't objective. I mean the OP has some good points, and some people have made some good points of tweaks that could be made.. but people like you, speaking like it's the end of the world "oh reroll DK it's gonna be soo much beetteeer!!" .. it's not.

In 1.6 if you suck on a Sorc you're gonna suck on a DK, and an NB and a Templar. If you're good, you're going to be able to pull tons more DPS than the average player no matter what class you choose. In 1.6 DPS equates skill, not class, by any means at all. That's been proven by the fact that using the same build on 5+ different people on the same mob have yielded results all the way from 6K to 13K+.

Then again, I made a point in the whine-thread that was closed:

People who only play Sorcerers think the class sucks. People who play Sorcerers and other classes don't.

The grass is always greener on the other side. But by all means, reroll, it's fun and it makes you realise how classes actually compare to each other + it's a great advantage in PVP to know the ins and outs of all classes.

Well now we have all been labelled 'whiners' by you, and you have made unsupported assumptions about what classes we play, or don't as well as our Sorcerers, not to mention how well you think we play... I think you've demonstrated enough bias, egocentricity, self-promotion and dismissiveness of other people to undermine any pretence of objectivity on your part.

Leave it to a self-promoter to fail too see the lack of objective analysis in their illustrations of their own brilliance.

The trouble is Pppontus, if you had made your point the same objective way as Gil.Galad, the 'look at how good I am' spin you put on it wouldn't have mattered, we could have used it as extra material to understand the root cause of the problem - perceived or otherwise.

But you didn't, and I made a point of asking you to do so - for instance, asking for comparative class performance videos or analysis. You didn't bother with any of that of course and so demonstrated clearly how truly 'interested' you were in objectivity.

I understand what objectivity looks like, I am a scientist by profession, and so understand the way an argument is credibly built up, with empirical evidence, comparative analysis, controls groups and indeed how to identify corner cases, or statistically 'aberrrant' examples relative irrelevance to the main body of evidence.

You, Pppontus, are not the main body of evidence, despite your assumptions to the contrary, and you have disregarded calls by me to make your evidence more credible.

Stating that on the back of one build, one set of vet 14 legendary gear and one type of conveniently static, short fight against a single mob is somehow representative of the state of an entire class in all PvE situations is like saying you can tell what a jigsaw picture looks like is from one peice without seeing the rest.

If you want to make your point, such as it is, you need to clearly present at the very least a representative sample of class performance with suitable analysis backed up by logically sound conclusions...

... not grandstand and resort to insults to those who don't see the world your way.

I wonder if you are up to it?

Because it seems to me, from my particular mixture of objective observation and subjective assessment that there is a credible chance that you are a Zenimax employee put here as a foil against the otherwise overwhelming feeling on this and related threads (now deleted/consolidated... a telling move).

Even if you aren't, you are most notably the only one widely supporting their current standpoint, that the vast majority of us feel is fundamentally wrong... supported with evidence... and analysis which addresses the issues.

Whatever your motives, you certainly never seem to miss an opportunity, on any relevant thread, to tell the rest of us how wrong and lacklustre we are, and how comparatively right and wonderful you are!

Bearing that in mind, a word of advice if I may. I don't claim to be the best at anything related to MMOs, and I would never consider undermining any point I wanted to make on a forum like this by publically polishing my epeen. I'm experienced, and I'm a good player, but I'm no longer bleeding edge - I voluntarily left that behind me after WoW and Age of Conan when my family life became busier.

That DOES NOT however mean my opinion means one iota less than yours, and you'll do well to phrase your responses in future with that in mind.

I would simply like to point out that the reason I am making my points in an angrier and less.. well-phrased manner now than when I started these discussions is because of the widespread complete ignorance and selective hearing of the so called "sorcerer community".

I rest my case Pppontus.

And proved my point while doing so.

TomasZee

No Pppontus, you just amazingly proved by your last post the point that you are as others claim full of "bias, egocentricity, self-promotion and dismissiveness of other people to undermine any pretence of objectivity on your part". I have rarely seen someone so immature and incapable of any self-reflection.

pppontus

TomasZee wrote: »

No Pppontus, you just amazingly proved by your last post the point that you are as others claim full of "bias, egocentricity, self-promotion and dismissiveness of other people to undermine any pretence of objectivity on your part". I have rarely seen someone so immature and incapable of any self-reflection.

Nope. You guys just can't accept that your perception of reality isn't necessarily the truth. You also think that the forums is somehow representative for the views of the majority, which is laughable. Most people (intelligently) choose to avoid this Sorc circle jerk.

Anyways, my point was that every legitimate point anyone makes against you is ignored, which you conveniently went on to prove yourself doing again.

Good luck with getting Sorcerers buffed guys, you're gonna need it..

Gandogal

Pppontus at tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/ on February 18:

"It’s really the other way around, in that I don’t take the people on the official forums seriously. I’ve met a whole bunch of them ingame and if people do 600 DPS on Live with their Sorc, it’s not because the class is bad, and thus I wouldn’t advise anyone to listen to them.

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated. Anyway, I am not having any sort of discussion with the people on the official forums anymore, I let them continue their *** of “sorcs suck”. "

How many posts did you do here since febr. 18? So much about "not having any sort of discussion" with us and let us continue .. our business.

And so much about being interested in a serious conversation.

Jahosefat

Gandogal wrote: »

Pppontus at tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/ on February 18:

"It’s really the other way around, in that I don’t take the people on the official forums seriously. I’ve met a whole bunch of them ingame and if people do 600 DPS on Live with their Sorc, it’s not because the class is bad, and thus I wouldn’t advise anyone to listen to them.

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated. Anyway, I am not having any sort of discussion with the people on the official forums anymore, I let them continue their *** of “sorcs suck”. "

How many posts did you do here since febr. 18? So much about "not having any sort of discussion" with us and let us continue .. our business.

And so much about being interested in a serious conversation.

But he is so constructive sometimes! /sarcasm. Yeah, I saw that post about a week ago. Really makes you question someone's motivation and why they are one of (if not the) most vocal person on this forum about this topic. Oh, and when he talks about PVP topics "I just get frustrated" because of "people who don’t have any clue".

pppontus

Gandogal wrote: »

Pppontus at tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/ on February 18:

"It’s really the other way around, in that I don’t take the people on the official forums seriously. I’ve met a whole bunch of them ingame and if people do 600 DPS on Live with their Sorc, it’s not because the class is bad, and thus I wouldn’t advise anyone to listen to them.

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated. Anyway, I am not having any sort of discussion with the people on the official forums anymore, I let them continue their *** of “sorcs suck”. "

How many posts did you do here since febr. 18? So much about "not having any sort of discussion" with us and let us continue .. our business.

And so much about being interested in a serious conversation.

I took a break and came back. Does that matter? My point is the same.

The discussion part of it all has been over since a long time, now I'm just here to point out flaws in your reasoning as well as continue to show people who come into the discussion that you're simply wrong.

I don't know, maybe you can get the game dumbed down to the point where a 2-button rotation does good DPS again but I sure as hell hope not.. and people say Sorcs are hard to play = lol. They used to be easy to play because they had almost no good skills, now they have tons so it's much harder because you can't rely on 2 skills anymore (which NBs, DKs or Templars never could anyway) .. all classes should be hard to play, that's the point of good gameplay.

Ahhhh I'm so much looking forward to getting home and gearing my Sorcerer. Hype!

Tankqull

Fayaburn wrote: »

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated.

so sorcs have not been THAT bad compared to the healing class in this game DPS wise. great comparison objective...

pppontus

Tankqull wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated.

so sorcs have not been THAT bad compared to the healing class in this game DPS wise. great comparison objective...

Erm. Didn't know this game only had Magicka DKs and Stamina NBs. I thought DKs coudl be Stamina and NBs be Magicka, etc.

Oh well, who cares about 1.5 now? It's gone. 1.6 is Live however so now everyone who has a complaint should be able to back that up with in game examples, videos and screenshots (incidentally like I've been doing on the PTS since day 1). Strangely, no one who complains ever did that. Except that guy who linked a DK doing 20K DPS, turns out he had 3600 CP. Are you still wondering why I'm having a hard time taking people seriously?

Tankqull

pppontus wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated.

so sorcs have not been THAT bad compared to the healing class in this game DPS wise. great comparison objective...

Erm. Didn't know this game only had Magicka DKs and Stamina NBs. I thought DKs coudl be Stamina and NBs be Magicka, etc.

in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is the king

pppontus wrote: »

Oh well, who cares about 1.5 now? It's gone. 1.6 is Live however so now everyone who has a complaint should be able to back that up with in game examples, videos and screenshots (incidentally like I've been doing on the PTS since day 1). Strangely, no one who complains ever did that. Except that guy who linked a DK doing 20K DPS, turns out he had 3600 CP. Are you still wondering why I'm having a hard time taking people seriously?

well its not that easy, taking your beloved lightning splash for example. for you its the best dot existing in ESO for me its a lousy excuse.
we have had that discussion beforehand, of all existing dots it adds the least dps its even outshined in that regard by scorched earth wich wich even provides a higher total dmg than LL - wich nobody use in a dps race. but you insists on the glory of LL. while the only true reason for LL to be somewhat usefull is the fact that magica sorcs do not provide any skill that per usage provide as much total dmg as LL does. while every other class does wich renders competitive dot for other classes useless but for you to prove your statement its overlygloryfied.

pppontus

Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated.

so sorcs have not been THAT bad compared to the healing class in this game DPS wise. great comparison objective...

Erm. Didn't know this game only had Magicka DKs and Stamina NBs. I thought DKs coudl be Stamina and NBs be Magicka, etc.

in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is the king

pppontus wrote: »

Oh well, who cares about 1.5 now? It's gone. 1.6 is Live however so now everyone who has a complaint should be able to back that up with in game examples, videos and screenshots (incidentally like I've been doing on the PTS since day 1). Strangely, no one who complains ever did that. Except that guy who linked a DK doing 20K DPS, turns out he had 3600 CP. Are you still wondering why I'm having a hard time taking people seriously?

well its not that easy, taking your beloved lightning splash for example. for you its the best dot existing in ESO for me its a lousy excuse.
we have had that discussion beforehand, of all existing dots it adds the least dps its even outshined in that regard by scorched earth wich wich even provides a higher total dmg than LL - wich nobody use in a dps race. but you insists on the glory of LL. while the only true reason for LL to be somewhat usefull is the fact that magica sorcs do not provide any skill that per usage provide as much total dmg as LL does. while every other class does wich renders competitive dot for other classes useless but for you to prove your statement its overlygloryfied.

But you're wrong about LL, to evaluate a DOT you need to count how much total damage it does over the duration. LL does ~14K, Scorched Earth does ~7K because it has half the duration. If you can throw out an instant that does more or equal damage to the DOT it is generally not worth casting. There are no instants (or near instants either) that do anywhere close to 14K. Since Snipe was nerfed I believe Scorched Earth might be worth it now, but it wasn't before because one cast of Snipe was more damage than Scorched Earth. It's really simple maths.

If you can clarify for me how you come to the conclusion that Scorched Earth would do 2x the damage than LL when it really does half, I'd be interested to know.

The radius is definitely enough for most situations as you'll always be aiming to keep the boss in a position, easier to attack and works with other ground dots too (Ash Cloud, Scorched Earth, Standard, Veil, Nova etc.). In AA it will work on 4/4, Hel Ra 3,5/4 (will be some downtime on the Warrior), SO 4/4. You should have no problem using it. The radius isn't as small as it looks either, as long as the bosses hitbox is within the radius - it hits. I've tried it quite a lot and it's actually really rather easy to use.

Tankqull

pppontus wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated.

so sorcs have not been THAT bad compared to the healing class in this game DPS wise. great comparison objective...

Erm. Didn't know this game only had Magicka DKs and Stamina NBs. I thought DKs coudl be Stamina and NBs be Magicka, etc.

in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is the king

pppontus wrote: »

Oh well, who cares about 1.5 now? It's gone. 1.6 is Live however so now everyone who has a complaint should be able to back that up with in game examples, videos and screenshots (incidentally like I've been doing on the PTS since day 1). Strangely, no one who complains ever did that. Except that guy who linked a DK doing 20K DPS, turns out he had 3600 CP. Are you still wondering why I'm having a hard time taking people seriously?

well its not that easy, taking your beloved lightning splash for example. for you its the best dot existing in ESO for me its a lousy excuse.
we have had that discussion beforehand, of all existing dots it adds the least dps its even outshined in that regard by scorched earth wich wich even provides a higher total dmg than LL - wich nobody use in a dps race. but you insists on the glory of LL. while the only true reason for LL to be somewhat usefull is the fact that magica sorcs do not provide any skill that per usage provide as much total dmg as LL does. while every other class does wich renders competitive dot for other classes useless but for you to prove your statement its overlygloryfied.

But you're wrong about LL, to evaluate a DOT you need to count how much total damage it does over the duration. LL does ~14K, Scorched Earth does ~7K because it has half the duration. If you can throw out an instant that does more or equal damage to the DOT it is generally not worth casting. There are no instants (or near instants either) that do anywhere close to 14K. Since Snipe was nerfed I believe Scorched Earth might be worth it now, but it wasn't before because one cast of Snipe was more damage than Scorched Earth. It's really simple maths.

If you can clarify for me how you come to the conclusion that Scorched Earth would do 2x the damage than LL when it really does half, I'd be interested to know.

The radius is definitely enough for most situations as you'll always be aiming to keep the boss in a position, easier to attack and works with other ground dots too (Ash Cloud, Scorched Earth, Standard, Veil, Nova etc.). In AA it will work on 4/4, Hel Ra 3,5/4 (will be some downtime on the Warrior), SO 4/4. You should have no problem using it. The radius isn't as small as it looks either, as long as the bosses hitbox is within the radius - it hits. I've tried it quite a lot and it's actually really rather easy to use.

first LL and SE both have exactly the same base dmg per 0.5sec with the same stat and weapon spell dmg values with much more weapon dmg provided by weapons and skill sets SE does more dmg than LL. on top of that SE provide a 6sec additional firedmg dot. so it provides more dps and used twice it does ~3k dmg more than LL in the same time frame while providing more than twice the amount of attacks for undaunted sets to proc additional dmg because of 2 dots running permanently and for a 2sec timeframe even 3.

Septimus_Magna

Gandogal wrote: »

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated. Anyway, I am not having any sort of discussion with the people on the official forums anymore, I let them continue their *** of “sorcs suck”. "

Thats nice dps for a sorc on live, what gear and rotation do you use? I usually get around 1k on normal enemies and about 1,3k on undead enemies, if I get enough combat prayers it can be 10-20% more.

pppontus

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Gandogal wrote: »

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated. Anyway, I am not having any sort of discussion with the people on the official forums anymore, I let them continue their *** of “sorcs suck”. "

Thats nice dps for a sorc on live, what gear and rotation do you use? I usually get around 1k on normal enemies and about 1,3k on undead enemies, if I get enough combat prayers it can be 10-20% more.

Medium Attack weaving with Spawn of Mephala and Infallible Aether. Crushing Shock + Power Surge.

Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

Honestly, Sorcs haven’t ever been THAT underpowered compared to anyone other than DKs or Stam NBs, but the Sorcs have whined very loud for some reason. I don’t care because I’ve always done very well with my Sorc, I never drop below 1,2k on live. I tried reasoning with people but when 20% of ALL threads in the PTS forum is complete *** whining by people who don’t have any clue, I just get frustrated.

so sorcs have not been THAT bad compared to the healing class in this game DPS wise. great comparison objective...

Erm. Didn't know this game only had Magicka DKs and Stamina NBs. I thought DKs coudl be Stamina and NBs be Magicka, etc.

in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is the king

pppontus wrote: »

Oh well, who cares about 1.5 now? It's gone. 1.6 is Live however so now everyone who has a complaint should be able to back that up with in game examples, videos and screenshots (incidentally like I've been doing on the PTS since day 1). Strangely, no one who complains ever did that. Except that guy who linked a DK doing 20K DPS, turns out he had 3600 CP. Are you still wondering why I'm having a hard time taking people seriously?

well its not that easy, taking your beloved lightning splash for example. for you its the best dot existing in ESO for me its a lousy excuse.
we have had that discussion beforehand, of all existing dots it adds the least dps its even outshined in that regard by scorched earth wich wich even provides a higher total dmg than LL - wich nobody use in a dps race. but you insists on the glory of LL. while the only true reason for LL to be somewhat usefull is the fact that magica sorcs do not provide any skill that per usage provide as much total dmg as LL does. while every other class does wich renders competitive dot for other classes useless but for you to prove your statement its overlygloryfied.

But you're wrong about LL, to evaluate a DOT you need to count how much total damage it does over the duration. LL does ~14K, Scorched Earth does ~7K because it has half the duration. If you can throw out an instant that does more or equal damage to the DOT it is generally not worth casting. There are no instants (or near instants either) that do anywhere close to 14K. Since Snipe was nerfed I believe Scorched Earth might be worth it now, but it wasn't before because one cast of Snipe was more damage than Scorched Earth. It's really simple maths.

If you can clarify for me how you come to the conclusion that Scorched Earth would do 2x the damage than LL when it really does half, I'd be interested to know.

The radius is definitely enough for most situations as you'll always be aiming to keep the boss in a position, easier to attack and works with other ground dots too (Ash Cloud, Scorched Earth, Standard, Veil, Nova etc.). In AA it will work on 4/4, Hel Ra 3,5/4 (will be some downtime on the Warrior), SO 4/4. You should have no problem using it. The radius isn't as small as it looks either, as long as the bosses hitbox is within the radius - it hits. I've tried it quite a lot and it's actually really rather easy to use.

first LL and SE both have exactly the same base dmg per 0.5sec with the same stat and weapon spell dmg values with much more weapon dmg provided by weapons and skill sets SE does more dmg than LL. on top of that SE provide a 6sec additional firedmg dot. so it provides more dps and used twice it does ~3k dmg more than LL in the same time frame while providing more than twice the amount of attacks for undaunted sets to proc additional dmg because of 2 dots running permanently and for a 2sec timeframe even 3.

But you're not understanding the value of having 2x the time on the DOT, that's what separates them. Base SE = 7K, Base LL = 14K over the duration of the effect. SE = Barely worth casting as it's damage is roughly equal that of just another Snipe. LL = Worth casting as it's damage is 2x casting another Force Pulse. Even if you can get more weapon damage (with a bow, really don't think that's much extra) it's still not even remotely close to how good LL is.

Sure SE has a tiny tickle fire DOT that remains but even counting that you get to what 8K total damage over th duration, with the issue that half the time you need tonot recast it to keep a DOT up that barely does damage (the after fire part).

This is Theorycrafting 101, a DOT is evaluated based on the total damage done during the duration of one cast. Because that cast is what it would have otherwise taken to cast another "bread and butter" skill (Force Pulse or Snipe).

Thus, if we assume Snipe vs. Force Pulse that both do 7K.. which is probably not correct but should be fairly close. The amount of DPS increase that LL provides is ( 14K - 7K (Force Pulse) ) / 10 = 700 DPS. SE meanwhile provides counting the 1K extra fire damage over 11 secs total ( 8K - 7K (Snipe) ) / 11 = 90 DPS.

I will look into getting exact numbers tonight if you actually care about it, but this calculation quite clearly shows that LL is many, many times better than Scorched Earth and thus SE being fairly bad doesn't have any relevance to LL.

MATHS!