1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

Sphinx2318

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

You are almost right about me sir! I am indeed a DK that is afraid of not being able to kill entire groups anymore. However, I am actually a PVP'er and have not PVE'd much ever. I was just reading some of the suggestions and am already scared about how PVP will be Sorc heavy until ZOS finds a way to balance things. At the moment, it seems that they cannot find a happy medium between the PVE and the PVP world. I do, however, feel for PVE sorcs.

Derra

Lied wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What people don´t get is posting a video of the skill failing 100% is the same as posting a video of the skill working 100%. Both is reproduceable with the 2 mins of effort it takes to make a sorc on pts. It has no significance...

It has nothing to do with its real use where the probability of it failing (and you dying bc of that - even if its only 20% of the times you use it and you can blame it on yourself bc you pressed the button to fast - lol) will simply make the skill undesireable.

Edit: I don´t get what is so hard to understand about that. I simply don´t get it.

Personally, I'm not going to complain if the skill gets a GCD that prevents an unsummon before a sacrifice. Y'all want the change, more power to you. Saying it's useless because you can't always time it properly? I'm sorry, I'm just not overly sympathetic here. There are lots of timing mechanics that screw up because of lag. Do you have much luck with light weaving/animation cancelling in heavy lag?

OK, so this is more about clutch time survival. If you try to dodge a second time because you mashed the keyboard too quickly in lag, how well does that work?

I give up. You win. I won´t argue reasonable anymore.

Skill bugs 100% of the time. It is unusable for me. Every time i try to use it showcase of the second vid i posted you happens.
Zenimax plz fix. The skill is bugged and not usable in pvp.

Yusuf

I just realized on the pts that DUALWIELDING gives you more spelldamage since both weapons count together. Staves in general need more love as well i think.

Lied

Derra wrote: »

Lied wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

What people don´t get is posting a video of the skill failing 100% is the same as posting a video of the skill working 100%. Both is reproduceable with the 2 mins of effort it takes to make a sorc on pts. It has no significance...

It has nothing to do with its real use where the probability of it failing (and you dying bc of that - even if its only 20% of the times you use it and you can blame it on yourself bc you pressed the button to fast - lol) will simply make the skill undesireable.

Edit: I don´t get what is so hard to understand about that. I simply don´t get it.

Personally, I'm not going to complain if the skill gets a GCD that prevents an unsummon before a sacrifice. Y'all want the change, more power to you. Saying it's useless because you can't always time it properly? I'm sorry, I'm just not overly sympathetic here. There are lots of timing mechanics that screw up because of lag. Do you have much luck with light weaving/animation cancelling in heavy lag?

OK, so this is more about clutch time survival. If you try to dodge a second time because you mashed the keyboard too quickly in lag, how well does that work?

I give up. You win. I won´t argue reasonable anymore.

Skill bugs 100% of the time. It is unusable for me. Every time i try to use it showcase of the second vid i posted you happens.
Zenimax plz fix. The skill is bugged and not usable in pvp.

There's no 'Hug' icon to click on under your post, so I'm just going to go for Awesome!

cozmon3c_ESO

so when is this announcement for sorc's supposed to happen again, ive been eagerly awaiting.

Snit

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

so when is this announcement for sorc's supposed to happen again, ive been eagerly awaiting.

I think some people are expecting Eric to come out with a statement that he agrees sorcs are underpowered in many situations, a plan to address the issue and a timeline for doing so.

Your expectations are probably a bit higher than they should be.

rfennell_ESO

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

If you look at many high end guilds they are also dominated by that one class. Every single one of them I've ever seen is a council of dks with a couple temps and maybe a solo veil nightblade. But the high end raiding guilds are dominated by dks and dk fans, many of whom were sorcs at one point or other rerolls.

Now this is an issue because ZOS in that lack of even finite wisdom decided to talk to these people... balance around their self serving suggestions. While I'm sure the advice wasn't all buff dks, it wasn't neuter dks either. It was "tuning" things like dks do a lot more dps than other classes, how about buffing the other classes slightly or nerfing dks slightly. How do you get to a point where a DK fire mage can do twice the dps of a sorc and not be totally blind?

The one thing about the old FOTM is that it will always yield a mass exodus to it and then a crying about changes to it. Problem here is that dks are the FOTY and have enjoyed an entire game year of being so ridiculously overpowered that they do more dps if they are stupid laggers. If you think these people playing dks, who have known nothing but being the most desired class and being the primary raid class with "non dk stragglers" brought along to support the dk awesomeness.are going to go silently into the night as balancing of the game... well they are not. They will lie, cheat and steal to maintain their undeserved power in game.

Do you think ZOS though to check who they were talking to? 90% dks (some claiming otherwise) with a couple nightblades who are solo veil spam to keep the mighty dk up and a couple templars that heal dks?

From what I've seen and read... ZOS is oblivious to the issue in game regarding dks. They listened to the uber guilders whose main interest is keeping dks powerful. They believe that the guilds incapable of completing the content fail because they are bad... when all success is ratio of dks.

It's that bad... and when the few active sorcs see nothing but trivial changes being made to a situation that places them squarely in the arena of "if there is a spot" or translated "if we can't find a dk" or "if we somehow might need a negate", well if the few active sorcs left see nothing that changes our prospects in balance... you have 10 dks saying the opposite.

Erock25

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

so when is this announcement for sorc's supposed to happen again, ive been eagerly awaiting.

Another day, another 1000 reloads of the PTS forums hoping for a comment on this.

Snit wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

so when is this announcement for sorc's supposed to happen again, ive been eagerly awaiting.

I think some people are expecting Eric to come out with a statement that he agrees sorcs are underpowered in many situations, a plan to address the issue and a timeline for doing so.

Your expectations are probably a bit higher than they should be.

Unless Gina just completely set Eric up to be the target of Sorcerer hate and degradation for years to come, he is expected to say something. It may not be a timeline. It may not be agreeing Sorc are underpowered in MANY situations. There really should be a comment on stamina sorcs being weak, healer sorcs having no advantage, and at least some comments on the fact that they're aware streak and encase are not proccing crystal frag and that they're going to fix it before 1.6 hits live.

Snit

Erock25 wrote: »

There really should be a comment on stamina sorcs being weak, healer sorcs having no advantage, and at least some comments on the fact that they're aware streak and encase are not proccing crystal frag and that they're going to fix it before 1.6 hits live.

I agree. But, I just remember the ESO live a few weeks ago, the one with Paul Sage. When asked when sorcerer issues were going to be addressed, the reply was, "Players always think their own class is underpowered."

If that's the thinking in the depths of ZOS's secret underground volcano lair, we're likely to remain a sidekick class

Jujujitsu

I agree Snit ... that was a defining moment in my mind, but I am always hoping because I like to play finger wiggling classes in RPGs. Luckily I have an alt Templar that may take over that role for 1.6

ESO Live is this Friday 27th at 4pm EST .... maybe we will get some info then ?

daemonios

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

Quick update (don't have much time today). I wanted to get a larger sample so I counted every single player who was listed on the weekly trial (DSA Vet) in the EU Megaserver. I counted 240 players. 39.58% DKs, 20.83% NBs, 25.00% Templars, 14.58% Sorcerers. Out of 34 full groups of 4 players, 23 had no Sorcerer (67.65%).

Hope our feedback contributes to prevent this game from becoming Dragonknights Online. I have nothing against other classes, I just don't think this is intended, and I'm certain it's not a situation I'm happy with.

Tanis-Stormbinder

ZOS_GinaBruno
admin
We're not currently planning on releasing any additional patches or doing another character copy for the PTS before Update 6 is released.

GilGalad

daemonios wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

Quick update (don't have much time today). I wanted to get a larger sample so I counted every single player who was listed on the weekly trial (DSA Vet) in the EU Megaserver. I counted 240 players. 39.58% DKs, 20.83% NBs, 25.00% Templars, 14.58% Sorcerers. Out of 34 full groups of 4 players, 23 had no Sorcerer (67.65%).

Hope our feedback contributes to prevent this game from becoming Dragonknights Online. I have nothing against other classes, I just don't think this is intended, and I'm certain it's not a situation I'm happy with.

Thx for the update. I hope update 6 won't go live in the current version. There might be even less sorcs then.

Philthyorc

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

You mean instead of DK ? which is the current master class.

Grao

Well, now we know how much the Devs are listening.

Exstazik

Grao wrote: »

Well, now we know how much the Devs are listening.

there is nothing to be surprised.

Grao

Exstazik wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Well, now we know how much the Devs are listening.

there is nothing to be surprised.

there is a lot to be disappointed about though...

Exstazik

Yusuf wrote: »

I just realized on the pts that DUALWIELDING gives you more spelldamage since both weapons count together. Staves in general need more love as well i think.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151049/2h-staffs-dual-wield-bow-damage#latest

Grao wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Well, now we know how much the Devs are listening.

there is nothing to be surprised.

there is a lot to be disappointed about though...

Well.ZOS don't care...someone leave-new players will come.They will hear a lot of promises....and the game will dead.Because promises is just promises.
if they can not keep "old "players ,idk how they will keep the "new" one

pppontus

After hastily reading some comments here I just wanted to point out that neither Infallible Aether nor Mephala has been changed to only proc from fully charged heavy attacks. I know the tooltip states what it states, but it doesn't work that way and those gear sets are the ticket to making Sorcs one of the highest DPS on live atm. (Mag DK > Stam NB > Sorc > Mag NB > all the rest) Infallible Aether was nerfed so it isn't very good anymore in 1.6 but Mephala is still good stuff.

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. You will need that practice because in 1.6 you're going to have to weave in a lot more things and have a much more complicated rotation, so if you don't master the basics already, you're going to do low DPS due to your own skill not the class.

If it's one thing we all have to consider in 1.6 it's that the gap between skill and no skill is going to be enormous also for PVE dps. You can already see it, as someone who runs a lot of raids of varying skill levels you see a lot of DKs not pulling 1K, and a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is a great post, and is the exact type of feedback that we'd like to see moving forward. Gil.Galad doesn't necessarily agree with some of the changes to the Sorcerer, and that's ok, but he explains his reasoning and provides suggestions after some testing on the PTS.

We've passed this along to the gameplay team, and will work on getting some answers for you all.

Yeah alot of sorcs dont agree with you, yet you continue to do changes to our class. Daedric summoning is still a useless tree The daedra are stupidly weak are literally a 1 SHOT KILL to bow users / 2hands and will just die. Give us Ogrims or Dremora something better than a clanfear ( THAT CAN'T CHARGE ) a imp and a twilight.

florian.billeb16_ESO

pppontus wrote: »

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

1) First: I don't say that 1,2k on live is impossible for sorcerer magicka, but it's really not simple to maintain 1k (without spell of warguild) on boss.
2) You pretend that magicka sorcerer will have the best DPS, but have you read or test, how many a DK, NB stamina with the same amount of champion point can do ?

Again: i indicated you this link with a DK stamina (without PVP buff, with 70 CP: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You show that you can reach 12,5 k with sorcerer in 1.6 and with potion, i show you a link, with a DK doing 16,500 without PVP buff and potion, and you pretend that's sorcerer have the best DPS in the game ?

It's not only a problem of sorcerer, that's more magicka/stamina balancing, but it's too a real sorcerer problem

Ok, maybe test are not so good, maybe my number are a little theoretical, and it's more hypothese

But now: list of real fact:
1) Sorcerer will be in 1.6 the worst healer (no more power/critical surge)
2) Sorcerer will have a good magicka DPS, but certainly not the best DPS, and you need to go melee to have a good dps, but you will have no more spell protection
3) 1.5. Sorcerer is the useless class (see timing in AA, Hel-RA, SO, DSA), less sorcerer than other class
4) AOE DPS in 1.5. for sorcerer was really weak (i do more AOE DPS with my templar heal).

pppontus

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

1) First: I don't say that 1,2k on live is impossible for sorcerer magicka, but it's really not simple to maintain 1k (without spell of warguild) on boss.
2) You pretend that magicka sorcerer will have the best DPS, but have you read or test, how many a DK, NB stamina with the same amount of champion point can do ?

Again: i indicated you this link with a DK stamina (without PVP buff, with 70 CP: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You show that you can reach 12,5 k with sorcerer in 1.6 and with potion, i show you a link, with a DK doing 16,500 without PVP buff and potion, and you pretend that's sorcerer have the best DPS in the game ?

It's not only a problem of sorcerer, that's more magicka/stamina balancing, but it's too a real sorcerer problem

Ok, maybe test are not so good, maybe my number are a little theoretical, and it's more hypothese

But now: list of real fact:
1) Sorcerer will be in 1.6 the worst healer (no more power/critical surge)
2) Sorcerer will have a good magicka DPS, but certainly not the best DPS, and you need to go melee to have a good dps, but you will have no more spell protection
3) 1.5. Sorcerer is the useless class (see timing in AA, Hel-RA, SO, DSA), less sorcerer than other class
4) AOE DPS in 1.5. for sorcerer was really weak (i do more AOE DPS with my templar heal).

1. For me to drop below 1,2K in a boss fight on live I have to have some serious issues. It's not that it's hard per se, because when you perfect your weaving it isn't hard anymore, you just have to really learn that.

2. Yes, 2H seems insanely OP, but this is not a normal state. Also you don't know what's true and not true in that DPS. Same person also posted a screenshot here of him doing 30K dps with liquid lightning using a bug you have to compare to the things that seem normal. Also DKs when they drop their standard of might they have a 20% increase to all their DPS for 20 seconds that they can only cast every 85 seconds. That's a huge factor in these short DPS tests. And yes, I have tested Magicka and Stamina NB (DW) and Sorc DPS so far. My Sorc does more than both, mostly maybe because it's the most fun to play so I spent more time with it.

2H seems to be broken OP at the moment, and bow is broken UP, the rest seem to be pretty much normal to me.

1. I'm all for buffing sorcerer healers, I don't heal much on mine but I don't see why not.
2. Sorcerers will be in line with all other DPS, slightly less than pure melee (DW or amgicka DK). But you can also get boosts in Melee by using Thundering Presence and/or daedric mines (possibly, needs more testing). Apart from as previously said 2H which seems OP in all builds. but that's a problem of nerf 2H not buff all classes and all other builds.
3. Yes, also because this attitude was cemented in the community, that sorcerers could not DPS which also led a lot of sorcerers to believe that they could not DPS, and that was a big part of the problem. I have done all the content on my Sorcerer with good DPS, but the problem is a lot of people don't believe you.. because they hear from their friends that sorcs suck blabla. And then people think that. Nothing could beat a DK or stamina NB in 1.5 because they were overpowered, but I have never seen anyone who isn't a DK or Stam NB beat my Sorc on 1.5. Never.
4. Yes, all classes AOE was (is?) *** in 1.5. I am really interested in Liquid Lightning+Impulse+Meteor with Valkyn Skoria. Might be really good, we will see.

There are some points, but largely, everyone needs to step up their game a bit and instead of just complaining: go do proper testing. Especially everyone who says "reroll" or "class respec", now is your time to go test a DK and see if you really get those numbers that you believe you would get.. because it doesn't just happen by itself.

Feynn

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO wrote: »

. Give us Ogrims or Dremora something better than a clanfear ( THAT CAN'T CHARGE ) a imp and a twilight.

I agree with you. I know for many players it doesn't matter what kind of pet it is, as long as it's reasonably powerful. They'd be happy to have a powerful banekin for that matter. But for me, I'd love for there to be more variety in the kind of pets one can summon. A daedroth, a fire atronach... unfortunately I think we'll have to wait for spellcrafting before we see any of that.

byrom101b16_ESO

Excellent and informative post Gil.Galad, and one which mirrors my experience of my PTS copied Sorcerer very closely indeed.

I started a thread here about that, but it's far less clinically delivered than yours.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153039/sorcerer-veteran-dungeons-magicka-problems-et-al-oh-yes-and-the-new-repair-cost-reality#latest

Nevertheless, I hope they take a llong hard look at the mess they have made and fix it before the Sorcerer becomes an anecdote in Trials and Vet DSA.

Fayaburn

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

If you look at many high end guilds they are also dominated by that one class. Every single one of them I've ever seen is a council of dks with a couple temps and maybe a solo veil nightblade. But the high end raiding guilds are dominated by dks and dk fans, many of whom were sorcs at one point or other rerolls.

Now this is an issue because ZOS in that lack of even finite wisdom decided to talk to these people... balance around their self serving suggestions. While I'm sure the advice wasn't all buff dks, it wasn't neuter dks either. It was "tuning" things like dks do a lot more dps than other classes, how about buffing the other classes slightly or nerfing dks slightly. How do you get to a point where a DK fire mage can do twice the dps of a sorc and not be totally blind?

The one thing about the old FOTM is that it will always yield a mass exodus to it and then a crying about changes to it. Problem here is that dks are the FOTY and have enjoyed an entire game year of being so ridiculously overpowered that they do more dps if they are stupid laggers. If you think these people playing dks, who have known nothing but being the most desired class and being the primary raid class with "non dk stragglers" brought along to support the dk awesomeness.are going to go silently into the night as balancing of the game... well they are not. They will lie, cheat and steal to maintain their undeserved power in game.

Do you think ZOS though to check who they were talking to? 90% dks (some claiming otherwise) with a couple nightblades who are solo veil spam to keep the mighty dk up and a couple templars that heal dks?

From what I've seen and read... ZOS is oblivious to the issue in game regarding dks. They listened to the uber guilders whose main interest is keeping dks powerful. They believe that the guilds incapable of completing the content fail because they are bad... when all success is ratio of dks.

It's that bad... and when the few active sorcs see nothing but trivial changes being made to a situation that places them squarely in the arena of "if there is a spot" or translated "if we can't find a dk" or "if we somehow might need a negate", well if the few active sorcs left see nothing that changes our prospects in balance... you have 10 dks saying the opposite.

pppontus wrote: »

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

1) First: I don't say that 1,2k on live is impossible for sorcerer magicka, but it's really not simple to maintain 1k (without spell of warguild) on boss.
2) You pretend that magicka sorcerer will have the best DPS, but have you read or test, how many a DK, NB stamina with the same amount of champion point can do ?

Again: i indicated you this link with a DK stamina (without PVP buff, with 70 CP: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You show that you can reach 12,5 k with sorcerer in 1.6 and with potion, i show you a link, with a DK doing 16,500 without PVP buff and potion, and you pretend that's sorcerer have the best DPS in the game ?

It's not only a problem of sorcerer, that's more magicka/stamina balancing, but it's too a real sorcerer problem

Ok, maybe test are not so good, maybe my number are a little theoretical, and it's more hypothese

But now: list of real fact:
1) Sorcerer will be in 1.6 the worst healer (no more power/critical surge)
2) Sorcerer will have a good magicka DPS, but certainly not the best DPS, and you need to go melee to have a good dps, but you will have no more spell protection
3) 1.5. Sorcerer is the useless class (see timing in AA, Hel-RA, SO, DSA), less sorcerer than other class
4) AOE DPS in 1.5. for sorcerer was really weak (i do more AOE DPS with my templar heal).

1. For me to drop below 1,2K in a boss fight on live I have to have some serious issues. It's not that it's hard per se, because when you perfect your weaving it isn't hard anymore, you just have to really learn that.

Please stop spreading the false information that 1.2k is the standard for Sorcerers. That DPS relies on Mephala and Infaillible Aether (possibly coupled with Bound Armaments). Those sets (especially Infaillible) are not accessible to >95% of the Sorc community.

Currently without this precise setup of elite gear, the DPS of an average is around 900 where the good Sorcs reach 1k to 1.1k on boss fights. And yes, 1k is the lower standard for DPS for any engame content that matters.

On live with 1.5, the DPS rating for the existing builds (talking average over the majority of players) is :
Stam NB > DK (stam or mag) > Stam Templar > Stam Sorc > Magicka NB and Sorcs > Magicka Templar

I usually agree with most of the points you are stating in your posts even if our vision about the design flaws with the Sorc class may differ a bit (I did not say DPS flaws). However, stating wherever you can be read that on live Sorcs should pull out 1.2k DPS minimum on boss fights or learn to play is just wrong.

pppontus

Fayaburn wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

If you look at many high end guilds they are also dominated by that one class. Every single one of them I've ever seen is a council of dks with a couple temps and maybe a solo veil nightblade. But the high end raiding guilds are dominated by dks and dk fans, many of whom were sorcs at one point or other rerolls.

Now this is an issue because ZOS in that lack of even finite wisdom decided to talk to these people... balance around their self serving suggestions. While I'm sure the advice wasn't all buff dks, it wasn't neuter dks either. It was "tuning" things like dks do a lot more dps than other classes, how about buffing the other classes slightly or nerfing dks slightly. How do you get to a point where a DK fire mage can do twice the dps of a sorc and not be totally blind?

The one thing about the old FOTM is that it will always yield a mass exodus to it and then a crying about changes to it. Problem here is that dks are the FOTY and have enjoyed an entire game year of being so ridiculously overpowered that they do more dps if they are stupid laggers. If you think these people playing dks, who have known nothing but being the most desired class and being the primary raid class with "non dk stragglers" brought along to support the dk awesomeness.are going to go silently into the night as balancing of the game... well they are not. They will lie, cheat and steal to maintain their undeserved power in game.

Do you think ZOS though to check who they were talking to? 90% dks (some claiming otherwise) with a couple nightblades who are solo veil spam to keep the mighty dk up and a couple templars that heal dks?

From what I've seen and read... ZOS is oblivious to the issue in game regarding dks. They listened to the uber guilders whose main interest is keeping dks powerful. They believe that the guilds incapable of completing the content fail because they are bad... when all success is ratio of dks.

It's that bad... and when the few active sorcs see nothing but trivial changes being made to a situation that places them squarely in the arena of "if there is a spot" or translated "if we can't find a dk" or "if we somehow might need a negate", well if the few active sorcs left see nothing that changes our prospects in balance... you have 10 dks saying the opposite.

pppontus wrote: »

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

1) First: I don't say that 1,2k on live is impossible for sorcerer magicka, but it's really not simple to maintain 1k (without spell of warguild) on boss.
2) You pretend that magicka sorcerer will have the best DPS, but have you read or test, how many a DK, NB stamina with the same amount of champion point can do ?

Again: i indicated you this link with a DK stamina (without PVP buff, with 70 CP: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You show that you can reach 12,5 k with sorcerer in 1.6 and with potion, i show you a link, with a DK doing 16,500 without PVP buff and potion, and you pretend that's sorcerer have the best DPS in the game ?

It's not only a problem of sorcerer, that's more magicka/stamina balancing, but it's too a real sorcerer problem

Ok, maybe test are not so good, maybe my number are a little theoretical, and it's more hypothese

But now: list of real fact:
1) Sorcerer will be in 1.6 the worst healer (no more power/critical surge)
2) Sorcerer will have a good magicka DPS, but certainly not the best DPS, and you need to go melee to have a good dps, but you will have no more spell protection
3) 1.5. Sorcerer is the useless class (see timing in AA, Hel-RA, SO, DSA), less sorcerer than other class
4) AOE DPS in 1.5. for sorcerer was really weak (i do more AOE DPS with my templar heal).

1. For me to drop below 1,2K in a boss fight on live I have to have some serious issues. It's not that it's hard per se, because when you perfect your weaving it isn't hard anymore, you just have to really learn that.

Please stop spreading the false information that 1.2k is the standard for Sorcerers. That DPS relies on Mephala and Infaillible Aether (possibly coupled with Bound Armaments). Those sets (especially Infaillible) are not accessible to >95% of the Sorc community.

Currently without this precise setup of elite gear, the DPS of an average is around 900 where the good Sorcs reach 1k to 1.1k on boss fights. And yes, 1k is the lower standard for DPS for any engame content that matters.

On live with 1.5, the DPS rating for the existing builds (talking average over the majority of players) is :
Stam NB > DK (stam or mag) > Stam Templar > Stam Sorc > Magicka NB and Sorcs > Magicka Templar

I usually agree with most of the points you are stating in your posts even if our vision about the design flaws with the Sorc class may differ a bit (I did not say DPS flaws). However, stating wherever you can be read that on live Sorcs should pull out 1.2k DPS minimum on boss fights or learn to play is just wrong.

You're wrong on that though, 1,2K can be achieved and is regularly achieved by our Sorcs without that combo. Not sure if Mephala is required or not as I've had it since as long as I can remember, and anyway, it is not unreasonable to expect an endgame PvE DPS spec to require an undaunted 2-set by now. DKs need it too, just a more difficult one to get (Valkyn Skoria).

And really, this is the problem we have in these discussions.. are we balancing classes for average players or not? Because that is really the issue here.. you are probably correct that 900 is the Sorc average, but do we then buff the class so the average can do 1,2K and I can do 1,7K..? Or how do we solve that puzzle? It's not like average DKs do 1,6K either, that usually requires a highly skilled player on a fight that incorporates a little AOE (that the DK gets free from engulfing + standard) such as Serpent..

In the end, balancing is a difficult question because (as I've stated a lot of times) in the end the limiting factor of 99% of peoples DPS is their own personal skill. I don't think I've ever really achieved my potential DPS because I always mess up something, still the biggest difference between me and the 900 DPS Sorc is going to be that I weave better, time attacks better, are smarter with pots/ultis and positioning for Combat Prayers and War Horns .. and whatnot. I could take his account and do more DPS, essentially. You get my point?

Edit: I've never used Bound Armaments.

Fayaburn

pppontus wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Sphinx2318 wrote: »

If ZOS took even half of your suggestions and implemented them, everyone in ESO would be a sorc and no other class. PVP would insta die.

At the moment we have this situation:

daemonios wrote: »

Weekly AA: 44% DK, 21% NB, 20% Templars, 15% Sorcs; 2 full teams had no sorcs.
Sanctum: 41% DK, 24% NB, 22% Templars, 13% Sorcs; 1 full team had no sorcs.
DSA Vet: 43% DK, 23% NB, 21% Templars, 12% Sorcs; 9 full teams had no sorcs.

Group content is dominated by one class, so is PVP. DKs will always be the best and most useful tanks thanks to their chains, self healing and resource management.
I have the bad feeling that you are one of them, who is affraid of not being able to kill whole zergs alone anymore.

Even if the sorc will dominate some situations for some month this would actually don't be too bad. They were in a bad place for a long time now and if nothing changes before update 6 goes live many of them will get huge problems to keep up.

If you look at many high end guilds they are also dominated by that one class. Every single one of them I've ever seen is a council of dks with a couple temps and maybe a solo veil nightblade. But the high end raiding guilds are dominated by dks and dk fans, many of whom were sorcs at one point or other rerolls.

Now this is an issue because ZOS in that lack of even finite wisdom decided to talk to these people... balance around their self serving suggestions. While I'm sure the advice wasn't all buff dks, it wasn't neuter dks either. It was "tuning" things like dks do a lot more dps than other classes, how about buffing the other classes slightly or nerfing dks slightly. How do you get to a point where a DK fire mage can do twice the dps of a sorc and not be totally blind?

The one thing about the old FOTM is that it will always yield a mass exodus to it and then a crying about changes to it. Problem here is that dks are the FOTY and have enjoyed an entire game year of being so ridiculously overpowered that they do more dps if they are stupid laggers. If you think these people playing dks, who have known nothing but being the most desired class and being the primary raid class with "non dk stragglers" brought along to support the dk awesomeness.are going to go silently into the night as balancing of the game... well they are not. They will lie, cheat and steal to maintain their undeserved power in game.

Do you think ZOS though to check who they were talking to? 90% dks (some claiming otherwise) with a couple nightblades who are solo veil spam to keep the mighty dk up and a couple templars that heal dks?

From what I've seen and read... ZOS is oblivious to the issue in game regarding dks. They listened to the uber guilders whose main interest is keeping dks powerful. They believe that the guilds incapable of completing the content fail because they are bad... when all success is ratio of dks.

It's that bad... and when the few active sorcs see nothing but trivial changes being made to a situation that places them squarely in the arena of "if there is a spot" or translated "if we can't find a dk" or "if we somehow might need a negate", well if the few active sorcs left see nothing that changes our prospects in balance... you have 10 dks saying the opposite.

pppontus wrote: »

florian.billeb16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I'm also very curious what ZOS will respond, because if they buff PVE DPS more, it's going to have to be only Sorcerer DPS in all raids.

Oh, another thing, if you find it a struggle to do 1K DPS on live - I have some tips, because that's really easy.

3x Soulshine Jewelry (1x Sp dmg, 2x Reduce cost), 4x Aether, 4x Torugs Pact. Fire staff with fire enchant. Power surge + light attack crushing weaving. If you don't do 1K DPS, practice weaving until you do. a lot of Sorcs where of two with the same gear one pulls 600 and the other 1200.. It's hard to do class comparisons then?

Somehow class comparisons need to be done by people on the same level of skill with each class or rotation.. not an easy thing to do.

1) First: I don't say that 1,2k on live is impossible for sorcerer magicka, but it's really not simple to maintain 1k (without spell of warguild) on boss.
2) You pretend that magicka sorcerer will have the best DPS, but have you read or test, how many a DK, NB stamina with the same amount of champion point can do ?

Again: i indicated you this link with a DK stamina (without PVP buff, with 70 CP: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/incoming-1-6-dk-2h-pve-dps-build-the-***-slapper/

You show that you can reach 12,5 k with sorcerer in 1.6 and with potion, i show you a link, with a DK doing 16,500 without PVP buff and potion, and you pretend that's sorcerer have the best DPS in the game ?

It's not only a problem of sorcerer, that's more magicka/stamina balancing, but it's too a real sorcerer problem

Ok, maybe test are not so good, maybe my number are a little theoretical, and it's more hypothese

But now: list of real fact:
1) Sorcerer will be in 1.6 the worst healer (no more power/critical surge)
2) Sorcerer will have a good magicka DPS, but certainly not the best DPS, and you need to go melee to have a good dps, but you will have no more spell protection
3) 1.5. Sorcerer is the useless class (see timing in AA, Hel-RA, SO, DSA), less sorcerer than other class
4) AOE DPS in 1.5. for sorcerer was really weak (i do more AOE DPS with my templar heal).

1. For me to drop below 1,2K in a boss fight on live I have to have some serious issues. It's not that it's hard per se, because when you perfect your weaving it isn't hard anymore, you just have to really learn that.

Please stop spreading the false information that 1.2k is the standard for Sorcerers. That DPS relies on Mephala and Infaillible Aether (possibly coupled with Bound Armaments). Those sets (especially Infaillible) are not accessible to >95% of the Sorc community.

Currently without this precise setup of elite gear, the DPS of an average is around 900 where the good Sorcs reach 1k to 1.1k on boss fights. And yes, 1k is the lower standard for DPS for any engame content that matters.

On live with 1.5, the DPS rating for the existing builds (talking average over the majority of players) is :
Stam NB > DK (stam or mag) > Stam Templar > Stam Sorc > Magicka NB and Sorcs > Magicka Templar

I usually agree with most of the points you are stating in your posts even if our vision about the design flaws with the Sorc class may differ a bit (I did not say DPS flaws). However, stating wherever you can be read that on live Sorcs should pull out 1.2k DPS minimum on boss fights or learn to play is just wrong.

You're wrong on that though, 1,2K can be achieved and is regularly achieved by our Sorcs without that combo. Not sure if Mephala is required or not as I've had it since as long as I can remember, and anyway, it is not unreasonable to expect an endgame PvE DPS spec to require an undaunted 2-set by now. DKs need it too, just a more difficult one to get (Valkyn Skoria).

And really, this is the problem we have in these discussions.. are we balancing classes for average players or not? Because that is really the issue here.. you are probably correct that 900 is the Sorc average, but do we then buff the class so the average can do 1,2K and I can do 1,7K..? Or how do we solve that puzzle? It's not like average DKs do 1,6K either, that usually requires a highly skilled player on a fight that incorporates a little AOE (that the DK gets free from engulfing + standard) such as Serpent..

In the end, balancing is a difficult question because (as I've stated a lot of times) in the end the limiting factor of 99% of peoples DPS is their own personal skill. I don't think I've ever really achieved my potential DPS because I always mess up something, still the biggest difference between me and the 900 DPS Sorc is going to be that I weave better, time attacks better, are smarter with pots/ultis and positioning for Combat Prayers and War Horns .. and whatnot. I could take his account and do more DPS, essentially. You get my point?

Edit: I've never used Bound Armaments.

1.2k on all bosses without Mephala and constant trial buffs ? If that is true, congratz, you managed to concentrate most of the highest skilled sorc in this game in your roaster.

Without Mephala, and classic buffs/debuffs (ele drain, syphon and usually combat prayer, no war horn), I am sorry but I don't think I am mistaken when I say that good Sorcerers pull 1k to 1.1k.

I agree that DPS should be balanced around the average DPS pulled by lets say the top 15% players of a class in order to eliminate most of the skill factor. Balancing it around the top 3-5% would be silly however.

And let's just leave the DKs and their live broken DPS out of that discussion. My alt DK can pull 1.2k to 1.4k most of the time with outdated purple gear (not even Valkyn). I don't even care trying to optimize it as I don't really like the play style and the DPS is sufficient for the use I make of it. Any average DK with a far from perfect rotation can pull same or more DPS than the best claims I ever saw from a Sorcerer but that is not the subject of this thread.

Edit : You should use Bound Armaments on the fights where you can fit in on your bar. It would synergize well with your Mephala / Infaillible / Medium Attacks cancel setup.

Snit

Is the implication that sorcs take relatively more skill to play well?

What's the payoff for that?

Heck, maybe the semi-humorous "Togglemancer" builds will provide a solution to this dilemma

Fayaburn

Snit wrote: »

Is the implication that sorcs take relatively more skill to play well?

Actually no. Sorcerers got the easiest rotation possible on live.
All the skill for all the classes DPS is located in the ability to weave properly or not.

However a Sorcerer with a perfect rotation will still get less DPS that a failing DK and a laughable DPS compared to a DK with perfect rotation.

This post concerns the DPS values reached on live.

Grao

Snit wrote: »

Is the implication that sorcs take relatively more skill to play well?

What's the payoff for that?

Heck, maybe the semi-humorous "Togglemancer" builds will provide a solution to this dilemma

Unfortunately pets can still cause your raid wide wipes by simply standing near the tank and channeling "Chain Lightening" (Mage) and other similar abilities. Not to mention pets drain extra resources from your healers and keep them from using Cool downs that target injured allies or Low health allies as those spells are very likely to target your friendly Clannfear.

And it is not like Eric and the devs are not aware of this... They are just ignoring it.