In Defense of Zenimax

Cogo · May 2014

kirnmalidus wrote: »

Yes you have proof that this was a bug which should have been caught by QA and fixed before roll-out, which is all I have been saying today.

Hmm. I read a few posts from you and you seamed to know a bit what you where talking about, but then there was small stuff that made me wonder, and when I saw you work with webdesign......ah.

You know this better then anyone but mistakes in the webdesign gets noticed at once and in real bigger deals, can not just make your company do the fix for free, but pay some sort of penalty. I think you mix up webdesign with the rest of IT.

The reason I say this now, is that you claim that specific bug should been caught by QA. That may be true in webdesign but not in the vast majority of the IT industrial. Especially complex software. You do as hard testing as you can, but until you go live with something so big and muuuuuuuuch bigger impact then the biggest test environment you can imagine, bugs slips through on daily bases. In quite a lot of IT branches.

I think you mean well, but you are looking through your eyes as webdesign. I agree, there is should really be caught........because the TEST environment is very simular to the LIVE.

You do realize that in this case, over 100s of changes in what I can guess over 20 different types of system, code, translation, database, engine, the list goes quite long.

If I turn your comment to your part of the IT world, It would be to be asked by Ikea to come up with a complete new design, that worked with all their OLD addons/interface/java or what they are using.

Do NOT tell me you can deliver that garanteed without missing a bug or two where you have no way to test anything remotly close to the Live version.

And mr, if you been around at least a few of the bigger MMOs, you know that ALL of em patch, ALL of em miss something or patch something that shouldn't been.

You surprised me. Cause I was listening to you to hear the "other side", cause I happen to agree quite a lot with @one_eye

I like to hear several sides of the same subject, but when someone simply are negative, rude or have nothing to say really....I turn to people like you, who backs up their comments with some sort of reason.

I feel a bit dumb now, cause when I reread your statement it gets clear you see things how stuff works on a webpage and that code. Erhm.....noooooo. Thats actually a quite small corner of the IT industry.

deathrament · May 2014

I can't even play the game tonight, every time i join a group i get dc in about 2 min or so. If i cant group in craglorn.... And your defending them...What a joke.

BigM · May 2014

one_eye wrote: »

I see the outrage over the issues created by the 1.1.2 patch - people demanding that they be allowed to revert the game to before the patch, people threatening to cancel their subscriptions, and the general bashing of ESO and Zenimax.

Well said and of course you knew you would get flamed. :-D

Realzyanya · May 2014

I can't even imagine what's going to happen when raid content is called for...I can't solo it! I quit! ZOS/Bethesda, please don't cater to this. And I don't even care for raid content. I just don't want this game to be diluted to the expectations of the average gamer.Chuck Norris comment, I thought so...

methjester · May 2014

Realzyanya wrote: »

I can't even imagine what's going to happen when raid content is called for...I can't solo it! I quit! ZOS/Bethesda, please don't cater to this. And I don't even care for raid content. I just don't want this game to be diluted to the expectations of the average gamer.Chuck Norris comment, I thought so...

First, your quote is silly. Second, how about they fix the core game that shipped before they go to work on anything new?

At this point I don't think that's asking too much.

Cogo · May 2014

Therium104 wrote: »

I honestly believe your ratio is incorrect. For example, for every one player who is happy with the game there are 10 who are unhappy. That seems more realistic.

Lol. The nerf to shield bash just alienated more people because it removed an entire playstyle from the game. It is embarrassing.

Cogo wrote: »

The shield bash is fixed. Works quite well, and I added points again, and guess what, I don't kill in 3 blows....but it helps AND protects me. You just need some personal skill in timing the bash....which it was intended to.

Why would anyone choose any other damage combo then 1H and shield if that gave you great protection as well as did as good damage as a fire mage?

And if its like you say, that people would quit cause they cant easely kill with an obviously overpowered skill....then you are in the wrong game.

kirnmalidus wrote:

Umm... Ok?

I think this was the first post in this thread to mention shield bash. The disagreement here is over quality control practices being up to par or not.

There was another person who both mentioned vampire fix and shield bash and "nerf". I didnt really care about, but they brought it up again, so I simply answered from a tank point of view who uses shield bash every day.

But instead of asking you to look, I am nice enough to show you the post

kirnmalidus · May 2014

Cogo wrote: »

kirnmalidust wrote: »

Yes you have proof that this was a bug which should have been caught by QA and fixed before roll-out, which is all I have been saying today.

Hmm. I read a few posts from you and you seamed to know a bit what you where talking about, but then there was small stuff that made me wonder, and when I saw you work with webdesign......ah.

You know this better then anyone but mistakes in the webdesign gets noticed at once and in real bigger deals, can not just make your company do the fix for free, but pay some sort of penalty. I think you mix up webdesign with the rest of IT.

The reason I say this now, is that you claim that specific bug should been caught by QA. That may be true in webdesign but not in the vast majority of the IT industrial. Especially complex software. You do as hard testing as you can, but until you go live with something so big and muuuuuuuuch bigger impact then the biggest test environment you can imagine, bugs slips through on daily bases. In quite a lot of IT branches.

I think you mean well, but you are looking through your eyes as webdesign. I agree, there is should really be caught........because the TEST environment is very simular to the LIVE.

You do realize that in this case, over 100s of changes in what I can guess over 20 different types of system, code, translation, database, engine, the list goes quite long.

If I turn your comment to your part of the IT world, It would be to be asked by Ikea to come up with a complete new design, that worked with all their OLD addons/interface/java or what they are using.

Do NOT tell me you can deliver that garanteed without missing a bug or two where you have no way to test anything remotly close to the Live version.

And mr, if you been around at least a few of the bigger MMOs, you know that ALL of em patch, ALL of em miss something or patch something that shouldn't been.

You surprised me. Cause I was listening to you to hear the "other side", cause I happen to agree quite a lot with @one_eye

I like to hear several sides of the same subject, but when someone simply are negative, rude or have nothing to say really....I turn to people like you, who backs up their comments with some sort of reason.

I feel a bit dumb now, cause when I reread your statement it gets clear you see things how stuff works on a webpage and that code. Erhm.....noooooo. Thats actually a quite small corner of the IT industry.

I'm not a web designer, websites these days are very complex systems and my training is in computer hardware designs. Like chipsets. So yes I do know what I'm talking about.

Regarding test being different than live, yes I'm sure that is part of the problem here. That has been my point all along. The scope of the test environment for this patch must have been on a vastly smaller scale.

For the game in general that's true. If test was a larger pool quests like Motes in the Moonlight with obviously broken mechanics in an MMO never would have made it to release unfixed.

GamerInNH · May 2014

[/quote

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Servers were down for weeks at a time.

kirnmalidus · May 2014

And for the record I don't disagree with one eye per se, I just want you guys to acknowledge that all is not well in Zeniland and if things continue at this rate this game is gonna get flushed.

magickats242cub18_ESO · May 2014

kirnmalidus wrote: »

And for the record I don't disagree with one eye per se, I just want you guys to acknowledge that all is not well in Zeniland and if things continue at this rate this game is gonna get flushed.

I don't know man, there's a whole lot not going well in any land, and I don't see civilization getting flushed any time soon.

kirnmalidus · May 2014

magickats242cub18_ESO wrote: »

kirnmalidus wrote: »

And for the record I don't disagree with one eye per se, I just want you guys to acknowledge that all is not well in Zeniland and if things continue at this rate this game is gonna get flushed.

I don't know man, there's a whole lot not going well in any land, and I don't see civilization getting flushed any time soon.

That, sir, is a matter of opinion. I'm sure you could find many people who would argue it is. I'm not one of them, but they are out there.

seschu01b14_ESO · May 2014

OP:

Get a better day job. Writing isn't your strong suite.

Having said that march on the that beat. I won't stop you, but I won't support your comments.

That last comment - about the game will only get better. Yeah that won't happen if they can't get patches out without breaking additional things each time they are released.

I can actually imagine this on a whiteboard over there:

Sprint 1: Known Bugs - 456
Sprint 1 Released - Bugs Fixed - 200

Sprint 2: Known Bug - 650 new + 256 from Sprint 1
on and on...

The backlog there must look like a sticky pad explosion from hell.

Either the developers are just half-assing this or the QA Teams have lost the will to do adequate release cycle testing.

one_eye · May 2014

kirnmalidus wrote: »

And for the record I don't disagree with one eye per se, I just want you guys to acknowledge that all is not well in Zeniland and if things continue at this rate this game is gonna get flushed.

All is not well, on that I agree. I say give Zenimax a little more time. I say to some of these players - enough with the threats about quitting or the posts about quitting. Idle threats are silly. I have faith that the game will get better, and we can hopefully chalk these patch issues up to "growing pains." And yeah, hopefully the next round of major QA goes a lot smoother.

I know it's a matter of opinion, but the game does have a lot going for it, and Zenimax has talked about some of the things coming up, improvements and content. So there's a lot of potential.

fiachsidhe · May 2014

Zenimax isn't even defending Zenimax. Why bother?

kirnmalidus · May 2014

kirnmalidus wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

kirnmalidust wrote: »

Yes you have proof that this was a bug which should have been caught by QA and fixed before roll-out, which is all I have been saying today.

Hmm. I read a few posts from you and you seamed to know a bit what you where talking about, but then there was small stuff that made me wonder, and when I saw you work with webdesign......ah.

You know this better then anyone but mistakes in the webdesign gets noticed at once and in real bigger deals, can not just make your company do the fix for free, but pay some sort of penalty. I think you mix up webdesign with the rest of IT.

The reason I say this now, is that you claim that specific bug should been caught by QA. That may be true in webdesign but not in the vast majority of the IT industrial. Especially complex software. You do as hard testing as you can, but until you go live with something so big and muuuuuuuuch bigger impact then the biggest test environment you can imagine, bugs slips through on daily bases. In quite a lot of IT branches.

I think you mean well, but you are looking through your eyes as webdesign. I agree, there is should really be caught........because the TEST environment is very simular to the LIVE.

You do realize that in this case, over 100s of changes in what I can guess over 20 different types of system, code, translation, database, engine, the list goes quite long.

If I turn your comment to your part of the IT world, It would be to be asked by Ikea to come up with a complete new design, that worked with all their OLD addons/interface/java or what they are using.

Do NOT tell me you can deliver that garanteed without missing a bug or two where you have no way to test anything remotly close to the Live version.

And mr, if you been around at least a few of the bigger MMOs, you know that ALL of em patch, ALL of em miss something or patch something that shouldn't been.

You surprised me. Cause I was listening to you to hear the "other side", cause I happen to agree quite a lot with @one_eye

I like to hear several sides of the same subject, but when someone simply are negative, rude or have nothing to say really....I turn to people like you, who backs up their comments with some sort of reason.

I feel a bit dumb now, cause when I reread your statement it gets clear you see things how stuff works on a webpage and that code. Erhm.....noooooo. Thats actually a quite small corner of the IT industry.

I'm not a web designer, websites these days are very complex systems and my training is in computer hardware designs. Like chipsets. So yes I do know what I'm talking about.

Regarding test being different than live, yes I'm sure that is part of the problem here. That has been my point all along. The scope of the test environment for this patch must have been on a vastly smaller scale.

For the game in general that's true. If test was a larger pool quests like Motes in the Moonlight with obviously broken mechanics in an MMO never would have made it to release unfixed.

It's also worth noting this wasn't an issue of finding bugs. From what I've read most or all of these were reported on PTS and they pushed anyway.

That is what I'm concerned about. Someone (probably outside of dev team) made the choice to do that and it was a bad decision. That fact has nothing to do with it systems knowledge or lack thereof.

Cogo · May 2014

methjester wrote: »

Nobody reads more than 3-5 lines on message boards. If you can't say what you need to say in a few sentences... 5 paragraphs is a waste on your end.

Say what you will.

i have noticed that forum etiquette have changed quite a bit since the 10 year long Everquest community. People seams to not care or cant be bothered to read more then just like you, a few lines.

I have a problem here then. First, I am horrible at arguing my point in a short and consist matter. My problem though....

Another problem, I was answering a question from someone who asked me to give proof what references I had between the year 2001 - 2009 about "having a clue" to be allowed to even have an opinion.

That answer sadly needs more explination then "I know it, you are wrong".

Also, short answers and questions are great, but you have to fill in the blanks about quite a lot.

For exemple: ESO SUCKS!

What does that tell me? The person dont like the game? Had a girlfriend who dumped him for playing to much?

Oops, more then 5 rows. Sorry!

kirnmalidus · May 2014

one_eye wrote: »

kirnmalidus wrote: »

And for the record I don't disagree with one eye per se, I just want you guys to acknowledge that all is not well in Zeniland and if things continue at this rate this game is gonna get flushed.

All is not well, on that I agree. I say give Zenimax a little more time. I say to some of these players - enough with the threats about quitting or the posts about quitting. Idle threats are silly. I have faith that the game will get better, and we can hopefully chalk these patch issues up to "growing pains." And yeah, hopefully the next round of major QA goes a lot smoother.

I know it's a matter of opinion, but the game does have a lot going for it, and Zenimax has talked about some of the things coming up, improvements and content. So there's a lot of potential.

I agree with all of that. I'm not quitting. I just want to see things improve. Hopefully they listen to the output of QA next time. Otherwise why bother?

fiachsidhe · May 2014

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Funny that someone is calling me a "fanboy." Umm, aren't we all fanboys? We pay a monthly fee and spend dozens/hundreds of hours playing a video game.

Nope not a fanboy of ZoS since I don't pay a monthly fee or plan on starting. I was suckered in because of the "Elder Scrolls" in the title like many people since I am a big fan of Bethesda's TES series which is made by a different team. This game is like Diablo 3, living of the fame of another teams success.

Ha! You say you were "suckered" into playing ESO. Well, sir, then you're not a fanboy. You're just a sucker, who, despite not liking ESO or paying to play it, are on the ESO forum. That's cool, I guess.

Yup. I'm a sucker that is going to enjoy seeing this game crash and burn right out the gate.

Why do you even enjoy that, I guess that means you don't like games in general. Even if you don't like THIS game, the industry in itself has been going downhill for awhile, and its mostly because of people with your attitude.

How many developers are going to jump on the wagon and create games if all you get in return is a big headache and no return on your investment. Yay, no more awesome games.

No, it means that some people enjoy watching arrogance, ignorance and incompetence fail to succeed. Especially when said things are expected to be paid for.

Me? I don't hope the game fails. I hope Zenimax starts giving an ounce of a *** about their reputation and the comfort of their paying customers. I hope they drop the "too big to fail" attitude, and wise up. Stop making mistakes other companies have paid dearly for.

However, I also hope if they fail to do this, they crash and burn. Like they deserve.

methjester · May 2014

Cogo wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

Nobody reads more than 3-5 lines on message boards. If you can't say what you need to say in a few sentences... 5 paragraphs is a waste on your end.

Say what you will.

i have noticed that forum etiquette have changed quite a bit since the 10 year long Everquest community. People seams to not care or cant be bothered to read more then just like you, a few lines.

I have a problem here then. First, I am horrible at arguing my point in a short and consist matter. My problem though....

Another problem, I was answering a question from someone who asked me to give proof what references I had between the year 2001 - 2009 about "having a clue" to be allowed to even have an opinion.

That answer sadly needs more explination then "I know it, you are wrong".

Also, short answers and questions are great, but you have to fill in the blanks about quite a lot.

For exemple: ESO SUCKS!

What does that tell me? The person dont like the game? Had a girlfriend who dumped him for playing to much?

Oops, more then 5 rows. Sorry!

Pardon me lord. Please keep writing walls O' text with proper grammar and punctuation. As a fellow practitioner of Rallos Zek I was only trying to help.

magickats242cub18_ESO · May 2014

seschu01b14_ESO wrote: »

Either the developers are just half-assing this or the QA Teams have lost the will to do adequate release cycle testing.

Well if they are half-assing or lost the will to do a good job, it's probably from all the negativity they get from these forums. It's little wonder they even read the forums, considering all the insults and bashing they get from the angry masses.

Why would anybody want to put up with the bad mouthing. It's one thing to post constructive posts about the bugs, but it's another thing to just rant away like a child who's candy got taken away.

I understand people are frustrated, but throwing temper tantrums isn't going to help the situation either. Just because you are anonymous on the internet does mean you can't be an adult and try to be civil unto others.

rawne1980b16_ESO · May 2014

magickats242cub18_ESO wrote: »

Well if they are half-assing or lost the will to do a good job, it's probably from all the negativity they get from these forums. It's little wonder they even read the forums, considering all the insults and bashing they get from the angry masses.

Why would anybody want to put up with the bad mouthing. It's one thing to post constructive posts about the bugs, but it's another thing to just rant away like a child who's candy got taken away.

I understand people are frustrated, but throwing temper tantrums isn't going to help the situation either. Just because you are anonymous on the internet does mean you can't be an adult and try to be civil unto others.

Float around the web and listen to some dev interviews.

Not many of them read the forums.

The community team deals with the forums, it's what they were hired for, then they pass on relevant information.

People can complain as much as they want, the chances of a developer hearing about it are incredibly slim.

magickats242cub18_ESO · May 2014

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Float around the web and listen to some dev interviews.

Not many of them read the forums.

The community team deals with the forums, it's what they were hired for, then they pass on relevant information.

People can complain as much as they want, the chances of a developer hearing about it are incredibly slim.

Yes, but it's the community teams that pass along the messages to the devs. I am pretty sure they are letting them know about the disgruntled customers. I feel sorry for the forum mods, having to deal with all the negative comments.

Cogo · May 2014

kirnmalidus wrote: »

It's also worth noting this wasn't an issue of finding bugs. From what I've read most or all of these were reported on PTS and they pushed anyway.

That is what I'm concerned about. Someone (probably outside of dev team) made the choice to do that and it was a bad decision. That fact has nothing to do with it systems knowledge or lack thereof.

I apologize, its late and I have actually not slept for 2 days, even though thats not an exuse. I misunderstood your point, which you made it much more clear now.

I think we agree. We want ESO, just less bugs. And not sure about you, but I LOVE balance. I HATE when I as a tank, can do as much damage as a mage in the group. I want choices to have effects, good and bad. I do them, I live with em. I dont want to succeed just because ATM For exemple DKs are overpowered and cant die? No way!

I do like the straight on attitude of the OP, because I would never express myself like that. But he sais a lot (not the rude parts) what i WANT to say!

ESO is great! Give it time and its even better! Something to hard? Dont whine about it, figure out how to beat it! Like Doisha, the lvl 8 quest that was a bit to hard, but some players managed anyway. I killed her before the nerf but leveled to lvl 12, and the fight took 10 mins lol. But I did it!

And the OP is SCREAMING what I am feeling.....

kirnmalidus · May 2014

Cogo wrote: »

kirnmalidus wrote: »

It's also worth noting this wasn't an issue of finding bugs. From what I've read most or all of these were reported on PTS and they pushed anyway.

That is what I'm concerned about. Someone (probably outside of dev team) made the choice to do that and it was a bad decision. That fact has nothing to do with it systems knowledge or lack thereof.

I apologize, its late and I have actually not slept for 2 days, even though thats not an exuse. I misunderstood your point, which you made it much more clear now.

I think we agree. We want ESO, just less bugs. And not sure about you, but I LOVE balance. I HATE when I as a tank, can do as much damage as a mage in the group. I want choices to have effects, good and bad. I do them, I live with em. I dont want to succeed just because ATM For exemple DKs are overpowered and cant die? No way!

I do like the straight on attitude of the OP, because I would never express myself like that. But he sais a lot (not the rude parts) what i WANT to say!

ESO is great! Give it time and its even better! Something to hard? Dont whine about it, figure out how to beat it! Like Doisha, the lvl 8 quest that was a bit to hard, but some players managed anyway. I killed her before the nerf but leveled to lvl 12, and the fight took 10 mins lol. But I did it!

And the OP is SCREAMING what I am feeling.....

Awesome. I'm really glad we could agree on this. Seriously, no sarcasm intended.

And for the record I play a nightblade. So yeah, I could complain about other classes being OP and my class being gimped. To date I've only asked that the bugs with my class get fixed at some point.

I had faith that would happen, but I'm losing it. The fact that they felt the need to make an official announcement about how bad the class is should be indicative of how big of a problem this is. And they've said it will be a 1.2.X update - so about two months.

I get it. Finding bugs is hard. When you don't know what is causing a problem in software it is very dangerous to commit to an aggressive timeline for a fix, because you don't know what needs to be done to accomplish that fix (and test it to ensure it doesn't break more stuff...).

But they are driving a lot of paying customers away with this "Update" they posted yesterday (and in case you forgot from previous posts I'm not in that group, I'm just sad to see more people leaving).

Edit to fix double quote. Sry on my cell (if I was at home id be playing).

xwadirtydiggler · May 2014

You can defend them all you want, people tried to defend bioware to but in the end the game failed, bleed subs, had empty servers for months and went free to play all because it was a turd and people realized it fairy quick after launch.

Thunderknuckles · May 2014

One eye, just lettin' you know that there are plenty of people out here who agree with you 100%. You are not the only adult playing the game. LOL

Most of what these other people are whining about incessantly are known as, "First world problems".

Cogo · May 2014

This gonna sound wrong since I am a businessman, but some people are good if they leave. Those bozos who only wants to pvp if they are an vampire who can instantly kill 50 people for example.

I WAS gonna start a night blade before I saw this post. It was to good to pass up. I want to play one, dual wield, because what I've seen thats where the most are broken? Can never say anything for sure. Though fixing the current patch is more then likely what zenimax is ONLY doing right now, I hope. BUT, you have to trust me when I say, I have a "gut" feeling about certain things.

Patch 1.2.X is not 2 months away. 1 week my gut says.

About playerbase for ESO (off topic but this is something I know and wants to share). Even if it sounds wierd, I am a guildleader in a small, but active social/group/quest/have fun with dark elves guild. (Link in my sig if you wanna look at a BAD page).

A community has defenetly started to evolve in the game. I speak with other guildleaders about news/progress/their view and experiences. And I get the same answers as we have in our guild. We are small, but we find a recruit every now and then, all who LIKES ESO. Other guildleaders have very simular statements. And this is as recent as thursday. I am sure the pink world or whatever bug people got from this patch didnt help, but I do see more "real" players around. Not just "race to high lvl", but like yesterday, we recruited someone who played from early access but was "only" lvl 35 (I am 37).

Our new recruit had a very simular story to mine. The game is fun! hunting skyshards are fun! (no addon).

Trying to kill a troll is something I NEVER gonna even try again!

If the game stablizes somewhat. Sure bugs, but it does need to be playable...
I think the "new" players are still buying the game. This week, next week. next month.

Maybe my enthusiasm is talking, but there are way to many things in this game to not be interested if you are a player who enjoy what ESO is.

Fek! Long post again! Blame my mother, she is a hairdresser!

So, night blade, dual wild, medium and light armor, that odd guild skill that heals everyone around you and I guess Ill try a bow!

I understand that the hardest tradeskill to get good at is enchanting? Will try that.

Now to the really important question. What race? I got imperial so I can pick em all. I do have a liking for the kajiits and lizards...but both those are GOOD night blade races right? I want something that isnt the best...hmm, A drunk nord night blade?

one_eye · May 2014

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

One eye, just lettin' you know that there are plenty of people out here who agree with you 100%. You are not the only adult playing the game. LOL Most of what these other people are whining about incessantly are known as, "First world problems".

Thank you, sir! I didn't set out to do a "me vs. every other player" quest here, haha. But man, people get pretty wound up.

Cogo · May 2014

@one_eye

And not a single word to me? Your cheerleader through the harsh night?

I'll send my hireling to spank you!

Cogo · May 2014

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

One eye, just lettin' you know that there are plenty of people out here who agree with you 100%. You are not the only adult playing the game. LOL Most of what these other people are whining about incessantly are known as, "First world problems".

If you have the energy to read my post just below yours, I am saying the same thing and I hear the same thing from other guilds as well.

It notices also those times I choose to do a pug dungeon, quest with someone or just trade blacksmith stuff with.

The player base in ESO seams....better, then other games. If its an age thing, I do not know. I just meet more and more people, and they tend more then often to be nice.....