In Defense of Zenimax

Talmet

paulhbowmanb14_ESO wrote: »

roflcopter wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

I can remember old Nintendo / Atari / Sega games that are more refined than today's buggy console games. Every console game now needs patches / updates / bugs and fixes. Nothing in 2014 is ever a finished product where back in the 80s it was what it was, finished and polished.

Funny to think about things in the 80s being more polished and finished than they are now.

whats your point?

@roflcopter Yeah... cuz programming 64k 8-bit, barely interactive material full of all 20 hours of played content is totally equivalent to coding a semi-worldwide 64-bit, dynamic & instanced online world, human-to-human interactive game. That's a great argument.
Tell me when you win ESO too, please. I'd like to know where it stops -- cuz it must if it's like those original console games, right? Say... if I save the princess in Ebonheart, does it know I did it in AD?

@Slash8915 All 10 years has done in the development world is that it has sped up the learning curve and increased (exponentially) the amount of possible avenues a game can take as well as customer expectations. Using the excuse that WoW came out ten years ago as though it is reason enough for ESO to be absolutely bug-free in less than 2 months of live time is ridiculous and unrealistic.


@one_eye‌ I don't care what the coding-ignorant, self-centric ones suggest, I think you're on target. I experienced go-lives for UO, EQ, Shadowbane, SWG, WoW, EQ2, etc. (some I was there on day 1 and some I was a month late) but I actually think this go-live was smooth as silk. I also like how open this company is being about the work they are doing. It's about time we had a company who understands the importance of transparency.

...it's just too bad they haven't been rewarded with a customer base who can respect it.

Completely agree...I played at launch for UO, DAoC, SWG, EQ, WoW, CoH, STO, AoC, SWTOR...idk, probably others as well that I'm forgetting.

the only MMOs that had a smoother launch were LoTRO, and that's cause nobody was in the game (also, they did this really really awesome thing, where the entire noob area was instanced with each instanced, having a max of like 10 players, and each server was limited to a certain number of instances to keep lag in check...made it really annoying to find your friends, as there was no "teleport to party member" function but it did make it so that there was no overcrowding.) The other was AoC, which was really really smooth...for about the first like 5 lvls, and then it was buggy and laggy and crap as they only beta tested the first zone of the whole game (because they claimed they didn't want to ruin the story.....).

Enkshar

ZOS shouldnt need ppl to defend them, they only need actions to do it.

methjester

Enkshar wrote: »

ZOS shouldnt need ppl to defend them, they only need actions to do it.

I'm not sure what actions you are speaking of.

Harakh

Bugfixing maybe or balancing?

Asasin

I understand games have rocky launches.
I do not understand why developers make the choice of accumulating fixes and releasing them as large patches for launch issues, instead of releasing hotfixes to issues as they are fixed.
I believe it would be much easier to track the impact of the hotfix for a single bug than it is to track how many things were fixed and how many more were broken by these accumulative patches.

It's just frustrating. You play with a certain issue for a month. For all we know, that issue could have been fixed within a week, but the developers decide to roll it all into one patch. And then you log in, and instead of that issue you've had to deal with for a month, you have to deal with a new one for another indeterminate amount of time.

It's a very annoying way of doing things imo. I'd rather have to wait ten seconds for a 5 MB file to download and fix ONE thing than wait an hour for a 4 GB file to download that screws up the game more than it fixes.

Yankee

There is no forgiveness in me for them taking almost a day to acknowledge one of a dozen threads about the VR mob damage/HP increase. I believe that made the game unplayable for many and a simple "we are looking into it" , especially after a major patch, would have helped.

This company has the worse communication I have ever seen in a game.

If they fix the game breaking bug of the day I will continue to slog through VR as long as some of my guild is still playing.

But I no longer have any confidence they can retain a reasonably populated world with a subscription model in the long run.

methjester

Asasin wrote: »

I understand games have rocky launches.
I do not understand why developers make the choice of accumulating fixes and releasing them as large patches for launch issues, instead of releasing hotfixes to issues as they are fixed.
I believe it would be much easier to track the impact of the hotfix for a single bug than it is to track how many things were fixed and how many more were broken by these accumulative patches.

It's just frustrating. You play with a certain issue for a month. For all we know, that issue could have been fixed within a week, but the developers decide to roll it all into one patch. And then you log in, and instead of that issue you've had to deal with for a month, you have to deal with a new one for another indeterminate amount of time.

It's a very annoying way of doing things imo. I'd rather have to wait ten seconds for a 5 MB file to download and fix ONE thing than wait an hour for a 4 GB file to download that screws up the game more than it fixes.

Look at the bright side. Now the Fanboys and Apologists will have ample time to tell us the next patch will fix this patch and we just need more patience as we wait for a recovery from this clusterpatch.

Now Queue"That Guy" who solos world bosses as a siphon nightblade with a restostaff in all stamina gear to tell me how very wrong I am.

AlexanderTheGreat

Wah! People are complaining about a product!
Wah! I like the game and I only play it for a few hours!
Wah! We don't need whiners so just unsubscribe!

Did you really need to make that long, tedious post just to tell people that their complaints are unfounded and that they should just shut up? I unsubscribed because of the never-ending bugs and lack of original content at Veteran levels. It's abhorrent and I won't pay for it.

roflcopter

paulhbowmanb14_ESO wrote: »

roflcopter wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

I can remember old Nintendo / Atari / Sega games that are more refined than today's buggy console games. Every console game now needs patches / updates / bugs and fixes. Nothing in 2014 is ever a finished product where back in the 80s it was what it was, finished and polished.

Funny to think about things in the 80s being more polished and finished than they are now.

whats your point?

@roflcopter Yeah... cuz programming 64k 8-bit, barely interactive material full of all 20 hours of played content is totally equivalent to coding a semi-worldwide 64-bit, dynamic & instanced online world, human-to-human interactive game. That's a great argument.
Tell me when you win ESO too, please. I'd like to know where it stops -- cuz it must if it's like those original console games, right? Say... if I save the princess in Ebonheart, does it know I did it in AD?

Obviously you missed the point of what I was trying to say. It's ok. I was pointing out that the gaming industry has a different set of standards now a days on how releases happen and that we SHOULD expect this level of service out of any game we try now. It the current trend and unavoidable. Stop thinking and expecting otherwise.

Since the dawn of video games major tech advances happened, I get that. But don't downplay what these guys did as it was soooo easy that paulhbowmanb14_ESO with one hand tied behind his back while being water boarded by two bears riding unicycles could do it.

I am sure that developing for consoles back then is the equivalent to the developing games now, only difference is technology. So don't down play it.

Reykice

Elgin wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Elgin wrote: »

I agree ESO will get better, but accepting a step back when you are paying for a service is not a good.

Well, my friend, welcome to the world of reality. Give me an example of a service - any industry, anywhere in the world, that is not wrought with periodic problems and setbacks.

I pay for high speed internet. Sometimes the internet goes down (issue or maintenance). I pay for cable TV - sometimes that goes out, too.

We pay for lots of things that don't go swimmingly each and every time. That's life, dude!

OP, clearly with your first post and your reply to mine you are ok with a substandard service. I am not, if my internet goes down I ring the service provider and they either tell me they are working on it, or they will get working on it but at least I know it's being fixed. My TV service provider (DSTV in this country) don't seem to just 'go out' but if they did I'd not be happy at that either.

Where I work, and have done for the last 12 years we offer a 99.95% uptime, and if we do not provide we actively give our customers one WHOLE month free, this does not include planned downtime, but any emergency down time, or crash we end up paying heavily for after 0.05% of a months time so we make sure they don't happen.

Stop accepting sub standard service and expect what you pay for.

Exactly... since when are we going by the "of its normal to be buggy and be unable to play... its only in its first year"...

Would you say that about your phone? Car? "Well my new House is falling apart but its ok my contractor says they will work on it and fix it... oh no now its worse but he says he will fix this too, i just need to give him another chance its only been 2 months since i`m not living in it...."

Nobody gives a crap about the money but i think we all care about the fact that ZENIMAX thinks we are just a bunch of geeky morons who will eat anything as long as we get to play, including a product that was clearly not tested and not ready for launch... so they keep serving us with the same old buggy crap as they know we are too dumb to actually do anything about it.

As long as we allow this to happen we will always get unfinished games... if they can get away with it why not? So keep paying them and the next MMO will be "oh look at how ESO got money even tho it was buggy and nothing worked as it should, we can launch like that too and be rich".

Either stop paying them or expect more of the same... your choice.

8onthebreakub17_ESO

After reading 4.1 pages of rage and logic, fanbois and haters, i have only 2 things to add to the discussion.

1. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because other MMOs have had difficulties doesn't mean that I have to accept it here. Fortunately, my experience with the bugs prior to this patch have been minimal and bearable, but I still agree with the faction that see this as a potential problem for Zenimax if they don't get it together.

2. Balance. I enjoy playing different classes and builds, because they're "Different". If you want your PVP balanced, I propose a solution. Every time you zone into a PVP instance *POOF* you are automagically transformed into one cookie cutter character. Everyone is the same race, class, gear and build. If you have an OP move, everyone has it. Enjoy your PVP.

Enkshar

methjester wrote: »

Enkshar wrote: »

ZOS shouldnt need ppl to defend them, they only need actions to do it.

I'm not sure what actions you are speaking of.

Thats the problem, they dont do *** so theres ppl that feel they need to do it for them .....

Realzyanya

I have seen this same uproar on so many forums so many times in so many games. If you think this launch was a trainwreck, you should have seen Everquest release. If the boat sank going from Commonlands to Greater Fey, you lost all of your armor into the deep sea and good luck swimming for it if you could even locate it. And getting armor when EQ was released was difficult. I remember being thrilled to get a plain old set of ringmail boots in Unrest. I've played EQ1, EQ2, Asheron's Call 1 and 2, Vanguard, WOW, Horizons, DAoC. I don't even know what else. They all, every one of them, took time to mature in terms of developing content and patching it in and stabilizing servers. I enjoyed every single game despite that. ESO will start getting it right more and more, just as all of the other MMO teams eventually did. They've already listened and are planning to roll some stuff back. And they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. People holler for fixes and content and so they try (albeit they screwed up a lot in doing so) and get hammered for trying. But now they're listening and going back on some of it. Ha,saying going back reminds me of rollbacks in EQ - weren't those fun! I can imagine the fits people would be having with old school rollbacks!
I think ESO is a really neat game. It looks different, feels different and plays different. Give 'em a break and a chance and if that's too much to do... Well, seeya! If ya want to rant at me, I'll be here for a while, playing ESO.

Cogo

one_eye wrote: »

I see the outrage over the issues created by the 1.1.2 patch - people demanding that they be allowed to revert the game to before the patch, people threatening to cancel their subscriptions, and the general bashing of ESO and Zenimax.

I whole heartedly agree in certain points. Yeah, the Nightblades are getting screwed. Zone mobs are a hell of a lot harder (in certain zones it seems).

But as a whole, I defend Zenimax, and here's why.

Kudos to you for this outstanding and needed post. We are a lot more who think just like you do then is reflected on these forums.

Thank you for posting this and bring even more faith in my own very big interest in ESO and its future.

And to be even more fair, ANY MMO who has and HAD a patch of this size, with this many different factors, areas and codes, is almost certain to fail somewhere, no matter how much you test. But this gets fixed...... Patience.

The first year of WoW, they where down for DAYS a few times.

Everquest, which I always felt has been the best MMORPG had a regular patch every wednesday and it was more common that an emergency patch came after it, late at night.

These games have very complex software, which intergrate databases, new code, an graphic engine, file systems, management, virtual environment and more. When you change something, its not like putting in a new CD. A lot of stuff just not need to work, but work together. And anyone working professional in IT can tell you that so call B2B, how different companies software works with each other is to this date, still a very complex system to build.

This is not just in defense of Zenimax, but the truth how far we have come in IT and how complex a software "like a game" can be. In fact, with a few exceptions like supercomputers, huge datacenter with 1000s of servers working as one and the graphic industry.....the game industry is the one who demands the best and most costly hardware to work good, get good features etc.

Don't believe me? Google away.

@one_eye - I wish I could give you 1000 awesome points for this.

Thank you.

Stratti

Slash8915 wrote: »

Your post was already long as balls. Was there any reason to add all the space UNDER your post?

Please explain to me in detail how balls are long and if they are meant to be long as I am very concerned that I may have a problem with mine as they are not very long

kirnmalidus

If you guys want to bend over and take it, that's cool. Feel free. But don't get angry that the rest of us aren't going to and instead choose to stand up for ourselves.

Again, I'm not upset about this bug or that bug, I am concerned about the implications of an update like yesterday's being released. Because it implies that something is very, very wrong in some aspect of how ZOS does business.

As you have pointed out before, it is not an employee or developers fault that this is happening, they are human beings and deserve our respect. But as paying customers we also deserve an expected level of performance, and I don't think anyone would agree that level is being achieved at the moment by ZOS as an organization.

Swordguy

one_eye wrote: »

QQ glug glug *hic* tldr

You do realize that a forum for an MMO is the best place to go for paying customers to complain, and speak their heart about problems with the game?

anyone that does not have a complaint about the game, is likely not on the forums, because they are either playing the game without a complaint, or are drunk and trolling, cannot connect with another human in a positive manner, and must anonymously throw dirt at their betters.

either play the game if you enjoy it, or gtfo of the forums and stop trolling people that care about ESO and want something fixed.

seriously... why would you pay 15 dollars a month to hang out in a forum and create toxic threads if you like the game?

Goldfish Blub

Everquest, which I always felt has been the best MMORPG had a regular patch every wednesday and it was more common that an emergency patch came after it, late at night.
Thank you.

they had "emergency patches", repeat it with me "emergency patches" not we sneak in some random nerf , yes i am a templar in v6.

honestly i am so dissapointed of this game now, i cant believe it, i just wish i could change my sub type, every euro spent for this, was to much, when i saw OP post, one really wonders, is that fear, fear of playing alone soon?

Asasin

*Sigh*

Again, they never should have waited to release this large of a patch. It made it impossible to properly test for introduction of new glitches, and now the subscribing player base is once again tasked as essentially game testers for the new round of glitches, errors and bad codewriting.

You named issues tied to the industry and with handling patches of this size. But you're really just highlighting one of the main mistakes these companies repeatedly make. It's time for them to try something new.
Yes, it's unavoidable to cause extra problems with new patches. So don't make the patches unwieldy, uncanny in size. Yes, new patches, even if small, can introduce new problems. So do what they apparently did with EQ and track those updates for the impact they're having.

You know that old phrase: You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of them all of the time. In this case, you've got a mix of new players encountering glitches for the first time and "veteran" players who have hit the end-game and might be getting a little bored with the PVP content.

In this case, unfortunately, I think Zenimax tried to please everyone at once. Instead, they've introduced new glitches for people who have been playing the game since launch, new content that's too difficult for many of the "veteran" players, and made the game less accessible to new players who want to get into it.

People would have whined, but perhaps Zenimax should have focused on one thing at a time, and postponed certain other things (such as content updates) to a later date. Now they've upset a much larger percentage of the player base, and I don't think it will be easy for them to recover, no matter how patient the "hardcore fans" are.

tilolyen_ESO

one_eye wrote: »

I see

Where I stopped reading. Anything after that is pure fanboism.

Cogo

hamon wrote: »

you started out reasonable but ended up in a rant blaming the customers for being irate at the product.. and exposing yourself as just another forum appologist.


I honestly believe your ratio is incorrect. For example, for every one player who is happy with the game there are 10 who are unhappy. That seems more realistic.

Lol. The nerf to shield bash just alienated more people because it removed an entire playstyle from the game. It is embarrassing.

First, there was actually a paper made by an american professor about forum usage in the game world. The resault was staggering, that apart from games with an obviously outside community where MOST people attended, then it was over 90% of those who posted on forums who had negative intentions.

The happy players simply didnt pay much attention to the forums.....they play the game. I have a sort of proof for this. My guild is not big, but I have started to communicate with different guild leaders in my allliance. And most have the same story.....we GAINING players. Sure...first month when loads of people just wanted a free month then money back, yes, loss in players, but a gain for the game.

Again, someone who do not understand the difference in a nerf and a fix.
I play every day since early access. Only as DK tank, and until a few days ago, I was unaware that shield bash was not working as intended. I had suspected they needed to do something about 1H and shield because it gave me as tank GREAT protection (with my skills Ive choosen) as well I could kill a same level mob in 3 bashes!

When you READ what shield bash does, it interupts the enemy when they are about to do an ability and THEN they get interupted and get some good damage. So far its correct. The bug was that the same damage kept going.

When I learned of this, I stopped using shield bash for solo, to learn how to solo as a pure tank. I got a bow and guess what, I can solo, but sure, not kill a whole Anchor myself with my shield.

If you do not understand that the shield bash was a fix, then you are either among those people who think vampires really should be able to kill 50 people in one go, or anything you do, you solo something that most players need a group for. I think you simply do not understand the meaning of "balance".

The shield bash is fixed. Works quite well, and I added points again, and guess what, I don't kill in 3 blows....but it helps AND protects me. You just need some personal skill in timing the bash....which it was intended to.

Why would anyone choose any other damage combo then 1H and shield if that gave you great protection as well as did as good damage as a fire mage?

And if its like you say, that people would quit cause they cant easely kill with an obviously overpowered skill....then you are in the wrong game.

one_eye

tilolyen_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

I see

Where I stopped reading. Anything after that is pure fanboism.

W

I read the first letter of your comment. Anything after that is pure "retardism."

tilolyen_ESO

one_eye wrote: »

tilolyen_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

I see

Where I stopped reading. Anything after that is pure fanboism.

W

I read the first letter of your comment. Anything after that is pure "retardism."

Obviously you read more than that or you wouldn't of quoted me pretty much verbatim with your fail trolling. Nice try though

one_eye

tilolyen_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

tilolyen_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

I see

Where I stopped reading. Anything after that is pure fanboism.

W

I read the first letter of your comment. Anything after that is pure "retardism."

Obviously you read more than that or you wouldn't of quoted me pretty much verbatim with your fail trolling. Nice try though

Sweet emote, bro! Those Ray Bans? Super sweet.

one_eye

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting ready to play some ESO!

Apricot

paulhbowmanb14_ESO wrote: »

I submit that you have zero historical experience with MMO releases.

When someone claims that all MMO releases suck I know they haven't played every MMO release.

This one has, though.

kirnmalidus

Cogo wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

you started out reasonable but ended up in a rant blaming the customers for being irate at the product.. and exposing yourself as just another forum appologist.


I honestly believe your ratio is incorrect. For example, for every one player who is happy with the game there are 10 who are unhappy. That seems more realistic.

Lol. The nerf to shield bash just alienated more people because it removed an entire playstyle from the game. It is embarrassing.

First, there was actually a paper made by an american professor about forum usage in the game world. The resault was staggering, that apart from games with an obviously outside community where MOST people attended, then it was over 90% of those who posted on forums who had negative intentions.

The happy players simply didnt pay much attention to the forums.....they play the game. I have a sort of proof for this. My guild is not big, but I have started to communicate with different guild leaders in my allliance. And most have the same story.....we GAINING players. Sure...first month when loads of people just wanted a free month then money back, yes, loss in players, but a gain for the game.

Again, someone who do not understand the difference in a nerf and a fix.
I play every day since early access. Only as DK tank, and until a few days ago, I was unaware that shield bash was not working as intended. I had suspected they needed to do something about 1H and shield because it gave me as tank GREAT protection (with my skills Ive choosen) as well I could kill a same level mob in 3 bashes!

When you READ what shield bash does, it interupts the enemy when they are about to do an ability and THEN they get interupted and get some good damage. So far its correct. The bug was that the same damage kept going.

When I learned of this, I stopped using shield bash for solo, to learn how to solo as a pure tank. I got a bow and guess what, I can solo, but sure, not kill a whole Anchor myself with my shield.

If you do not understand that the shield bash was a fix, then you are either among those people who think vampires really should be able to kill 50 people in one go, or anything you do, you solo something that most players need a group for. I think you simply do not understand the meaning of "balance".

The shield bash is fixed. Works quite well, and I added points again, and guess what, I don't kill in 3 blows....but it helps AND protects me. You just need some personal skill in timing the bash....which it was intended to.

Why would anyone choose any other damage combo then 1H and shield if that gave you great protection as well as did as good damage as a fire mage?

And if its like you say, that people would quit cause they cant easely kill with an obviously overpowered skill....then you are in the wrong game.

Umm... Ok?

I think this was the first post in this thread to mention shield bash. The disagreement here is over quality control practices being up to par or not.

tilolyen_ESO

one_eye wrote: »

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting ready to bump WALL O TEXT defending a subpar product Zenimax as released, now where did I put that tissue to wipe my nose?

Fixed.

kirnmalidus

one_eye wrote: »

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting ready to play some ESO!

On that we can agree, lol.

Cogo

muze_ESO wrote: »

Meh I quit the game as of today due to overall VR endgame. You play a single player game through level 1-50 and wins. No need to keep on paying for quest grind gaming that you die every other minute. Good Luck all that stay with the game.

Heh, another one who didnt read anything about the game. Was it a gift? You buy it thinking its a new WoW?

If you SOLO all the way to 50, I feel soooo sorry for you, cause you missed so many things and to just mention one, a new type of AI in instanced mobs. They work as a group together against you...sometimes even better then you.

There are 50 other things you miss if you only solo BUT ESO offers this. The world is yours from level 1. You build your story. You just missed most of the game buddy.