In Defense of Zenimax

one_eye

tanthil wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

exactly you put a $79 price tag on your game and a $15 monthly fee you are now right at the top of the market for pricing.

But they are currently sitting dam near the bottom of the market for quality.

Again, if you don't think you're getting your money's worth, then quit! That's how everything else in life works. You made an "investment" (is $79 plus a small monthly fee really an investment?), you're not satisfied with the return, no problem. Move on!

rjfallier

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Bashing & Slanderous Comments]

Reykice

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

That was in the early stages of MMO development... they had to do everything by them selves and even invent a few things along the way....

Also, WOW had server capacity problems... too many people bought it. But WOW had a reputation for polish, content was tested, exploits were Hot Fixed in HOURS before they spread and any abuser was banned.

ESO is adding more bugs than its fixing with no hack detection so people are flying all over the place... and so on.

They are not even in the same boat.... especially as most of the bugs in ESO were reported in Closed Beta as stated by every streamer out there, most of them are as pissed as we are that they did not do anything about it and launched anyway.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

Right so doesn't that mean the complexity has increased since 2004, not decreased. Wouldn't it be even more difficult to release flawless patches. Who even expects flawless patches.

Welcome to the real world. Whoever set the criteria that patches/content/releases have to be perfect needs to re-adjust their bars. They will be systematically let down by every major game/software/client release from now till forever as long as people are involved with the process.

No I don't work for ZOS, I'm just a regular gamer, whose been playing games for a long time, and knows its unrealistic to expect a flawless delivery. Things will always happen.

SirJesto

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

Right, the technology is better and therefore more difficult to code. Thanks for realizing this.

Nox_Aeterna

tanthil wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

exactly you put a $79 price tag on your game and a $15 monthly fee you are now right at the top of the market for pricing.

But they are currently sitting dam near the bottom of the market for quality.

Pretty much this.

The sub cost is not high , that does not mean i intend to burn this money every month for nothing.

If the game is not worth it , then i wont give it a single cent.

This game is at best , a good game. It is far from being "REALLY good" and for sure when it comes to being a MMO , it is just plain bad.

While i agree , the ES franchise is great , probably what keeps tons of their subs alone is this.

one_eye

Slash8915 wrote: »

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

Different expectations. Just because it's 2014 doesn't mean that all server/web/game technologies are going to work perfectly.

Slash8915

roflcopter wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

I can remember old Nintendo / Atari / Sega games that are more refined than today's buggy console games. Every console game now needs patches / updates / bugs and fixes. Nothing in 2014 is ever a finished product where back in the 80s it was what it was, finished and polished.

Funny to think about things in the 80s being more polished and finished than they are now.

whats your point?

Nintendo/Atari/Sega games were also much simpler to create. My point is, in the age of digital knowledge, we shouldn't have major issues with games when the devs should learn from the mistakes of others,

SDZald

They do pay attention to bug reports??? Strange I reported weeks ago at least one bugged quest and at least one bugged outdoor boss (I have now run across 3 more) and not only are they still bugged but I have heard ZERO back from them to even acknowledge they received my reports.

Then there is the stealth nerf of racial Motifs that players started to report weeks ago and what we got back was "Oh really well let us look into it." then nothing but silence until 1.1.2 release where they claim they just "forgot" to tell us about the nerf. If that is the case then why did they have to "look into it" why not just tell us then opppsss.

The they introduce a new release that has a huge and obvious memory leak. Either they don't test their stuff before release or their QC/QA stinks.

I am sorry but so far they have run ESO like a Bush League.

one_eye

Pretty much this.

The sub cost is not high , that does not mean i intend to burn this money every month for nothing.

If the game is not worth it , then i wont give it a single cent.

This game is at best , a good game. It is far from being "REALLY good" and for sure when it comes to being a MMO , it is just plain bad.

While i agree , the ES franchise is great , probably what keeps tons of their subs alone is this.[/quote]

Just different opinion. I'll clarify - I, personally, think ESO is a really good game. It's fun to play, there's a lot to do. Yes there are problems, but I just don't get as worked up about them as many players seem to.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

Slash8915 wrote: »

roflcopter wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

I can remember old Nintendo / Atari / Sega games that are more refined than today's buggy console games. Every console game now needs patches / updates / bugs and fixes. Nothing in 2014 is ever a finished product where back in the 80s it was what it was, finished and polished.

Funny to think about things in the 80s being more polished and finished than they are now.

whats your point?

Nintendo/Atari/Sega games were also much simpler to create. My point is, in the age of digital knowledge, we shouldn't have major issues with games when the devs should learn from the mistakes of others,

If the human web worked this way we would be way more advanced then what we are currently. IN practice your philosophy makes sense. That you'd learn from every other game makers mistakes in all of human history. But come on, that would mean that every game developer, and all their staff, would have had to play every game, be part of every launch, document that, disseminate the knowledge, come up with the best game ever, release a flawless product, no lag, no thing, and even then, I bet people would be unhappy.

Come back to the real world.

roflcopter

Slash8915 wrote: »

roflcopter wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

I can remember old Nintendo / Atari / Sega games that are more refined than today's buggy console games. Every console game now needs patches / updates / bugs and fixes. Nothing in 2014 is ever a finished product where back in the 80s it was what it was, finished and polished.

Funny to think about things in the 80s being more polished and finished than they are now.

whats your point?

Nintendo/Atari/Sega games were also much simpler to create. My point is, in the this age is digital knowledge, we should have major issues with games when the devs should learn from the mistakes of others,

I disagree, some games were complex even the PC ones. But still the point being and the difference is back then they waited to get things done and send out to the customer as finished and as perfect as humanly possible.

The trend now a days whether its right or wrong is to send out and fix on the fly. It is not just this MMO its gaming in general. Why are we crucifying them when its something that has followed a pattern for years.

The newest BF for ps4 was horrible after release so many bugs and crashes. Same with the latest CoD. So even big boys can mess up a release.

We need a head check on expectations here.

penguinlaraub17_ESO

one_eye wrote: »

Funny that someone is calling me a "fanboy." Umm, aren't we all fanboys? We pay a monthly fee and spend dozens/hundreds of hours playing a video game.

Nope not a fanboy of ZoS since I don't pay a monthly fee or plan on starting. I was suckered in because of the "Elder Scrolls" in the title like many people since I am a big fan of Bethesda's TES series which is made by a different team. This game is like Diablo 3, living of the fame of another teams success.

one_eye

Slash8915 wrote: »

Nintendo/Atari/Sega games were also much simpler to create. My point is, in the age of digital knowledge, we shouldn't have major issues with games when the devs should learn from the mistakes of others,

It's quite the opposite sometimes. Some of the web applications my company builds are very cutting edge from a "modern" standpoint. But they are also extremely complex. Things get broken from time to time. Again, you're just assuming that all this modern knowledge should mean there are less problems. That's just not the case.

SirJesto

Just report the problems and STFU. The complaining and threats to quit and calling the devs names doesn't help. Just report the problems and STFU. If you can't wait, don't play. That's it, that's all.

Slash8915

roflcopter wrote: »

The trend now a days whether its right or wrong is to send out and fix on the fly. It is not just this MMO its gaming in general. Why are we crucifying them when its something that has followed a pattern for years.

I'll definitely give you this. It's extremely irritating to get a game by a big developer, only to find out it's broken all to hell.

Elember

I agree mostly with the OP, however last night I took my Nightblade into the Fighters Guild quest and I have to say she is a lot less then what she was. I died so many times before I completed that quest it was ridiculous. I had been to Cold Harbor with this character and I am now level 44 and previously I had no problems soloing Watchers and Ogrims, of which there are a lot of them in CH and I could kill them easily.

However in that quest last night I think I died 6 times to the Ogrim and 4 times to the Watcher, the Harvester for some reason I cut through like butter and usually they were the mob I would have trouble with.

Then I finally completed that quest and I logged in my Sorcerer who is also in CH, and what do I find? All the work I had done to save the city, saving the King, save the mage, all the vendors appear and the bank, etc....well it was all gone. I check the patch notes and nothing there about that, nothing telling me to go talk to the Grounds Keeper again so bring the city back to where it was before the reset, how hard would it have been to publish something saying you need to go talk to the groundskeeper?

one_eye

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Funny that someone is calling me a "fanboy." Umm, aren't we all fanboys? We pay a monthly fee and spend dozens/hundreds of hours playing a video game.

Nope not a fanboy of ZoS since I don't pay a monthly fee or plan on starting. I was suckered in because of the "Elder Scrolls" in the title like many people since I am a big fan of Bethesda's TES series which is made by a different team. This game is like Diablo 3, living of the fame of another teams success.

Ha! You say you were "suckered" into playing ESO. Well, sir, then you're not a fanboy. You're just a sucker, who, despite not liking ESO or paying to play it, are on the ESO forum. That's cool, I guess.

Bhakura

And once again with the wow comparison, /rolleyes

if anything is wrong with this patch is that they balanced alot of skills making some builds less effective as they used to be and at the same time make things harder. Leaving a whole bunch of builds, mostly the one button spamwonders unprepared, become from one button spamwonder to a one button fail.

personally, i find this hilarious, serves you right leveling to max level with one button exploiting a bugged mechanic all the way through and never actually learned to play, because, i never used exploits and i still solo just fine.

roflcopter

Slash8915 wrote: »

roflcopter wrote: »

The trend now a days whether its right or wrong is to send out and fix on the fly. It is not just this MMO its gaming in general. Why are we crucifying them when its something that has followed a pattern for years.

I'll definitely give you this. It's extremely irritating to get a game by a big developer, only to find out it's broken all to hell.

I don't understand all the hate when its the norm, and the norm for a long time. We act like its new and unheard of for a company to treat a game like this.

Seriously

Reykice

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

Right so doesn't that mean the complexity has increased since 2004, not decreased. Wouldn't it be even more difficult to release flawless patches. Who even expects flawless patches.

Welcome to the real world. Whoever set the criteria that patches/content/releases have to be perfect needs to re-adjust their bars. They will be systematically let down by every major game/software/client release from now till forever as long as people are involved with the process.

No I don't work for ZOS, I'm just a regular gamer, whose been playing games for a long time, and knows its unrealistic to expect a flawless delivery. Things will always happen.

Programming is EASIER every year... the programming languages today are a lot more friendly and its a lot easier to learn one today compared to 2000.

You also have a lot more learning materials and a lot more people to ask about anything... most of the programming done today is REUSING OLD CODE... you had known this if you had any clue about what you are talking about.

Most developers in 2000 had to make their own engine, they could not just buy one... i could go on but you get my point.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Bashing & Slanderous Comments]

Therium104

one_eye wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

you started out reasonable but ended up in a rant blaming the customers for being irate at the product.. and exposing yourself as just another forum appologist.

i dont expect perfection when they release big patches and am willing to cut them some slack.. however that being said this patch is so full of glaring bugs and mistakes it screams ineptitude.
i dont think anyone was seriously saying they messed it up deliberately.

but you need to expect folk to go nuts when they have put hundreds of hours of their valuable time into a game and character then it seems like they ripped out some of the aspects of said game/character that they find fun.

to call anyone who reacts like that simply a whiner speaks volumes to me about you. It screams a lack of empathy and understanding possibly immaturity in terms of developing these human attributes.

I sincerely have empathy for players who's gaming experience is affected by these patch issues.

But did it ever occur to you that for every 1 player that isn't satisfied with ESO, there maybe 50 that are perfectly happy with the way the game is going in general?

Obviously I'm just speculating on numbers, but maybe the game isn't as bad as some people make it out to be.

And honestly, I don't know what a forum apologist is. Am I a sucker because I'm defending the makers of the game? If you say so.

I honestly believe your ratio is incorrect. For example, for every one player who is happy with the game there are 10 who are unhappy. That seems more realistic.

Lol. The nerf to shield bash just alienated more people because it removed an entire playstyle from the game. It is embarrassing.

one_eye

Bhakura wrote: »

And once again with the wow comparison, /rolleyes

if anything is wrong with this patch is that they balanced alot of skills making some builds less effective as they used to be and at the same time make things harder. Leaving a whole bunch of builds, mostly the one button spamwonders unprepared, become from one button spamwonder to a one button fail.

personally, i find this hilarious, serves you right leveling to max level with one button exploiting a bugged mechanic all the way through and never actually learned to play, because, i never used exploits and i still solo just fine.

THANK YOU!

Maybe I didn't make my point well enough, but this was a part of what I was trying to say. A lot of the complainers blew through the game by exploiting the bugs.

THOSE players I have little sympathy for.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

Right so doesn't that mean the complexity has increased since 2004, not decreased. Wouldn't it be even more difficult to release flawless patches. Who even expects flawless patches.

Welcome to the real world. Whoever set the criteria that patches/content/releases have to be perfect needs to re-adjust their bars. They will be systematically let down by every major game/software/client release from now till forever as long as people are involved with the process.

No I don't work for ZOS, I'm just a regular gamer, whose been playing games for a long time, and knows its unrealistic to expect a flawless delivery. Things will always happen.

You are a troll.... programming is EASIER every year... the programming languages today are a lot more friendly and its a lot easier to learn one today compared to 2000.

You also have a lot more learning materials and a lot more people to ask about anything... most of the programming done today is REUSING OLD CODE... you had known this if you had any clue about what you are talking about.

So please mister hired PR representative.... lie more...

Most developers in 2000 had to make their own engine, they could not just buy one... i could go on but you get my point.

Right you got me, the complexity of code and game design is going down. Which is directly represented in the costs to make major games.

Genius.

penguinlaraub17_ESO

one_eye wrote: »

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Funny that someone is calling me a "fanboy." Umm, aren't we all fanboys? We pay a monthly fee and spend dozens/hundreds of hours playing a video game.

Nope not a fanboy of ZoS since I don't pay a monthly fee or plan on starting. I was suckered in because of the "Elder Scrolls" in the title like many people since I am a big fan of Bethesda's TES series which is made by a different team. This game is like Diablo 3, living of the fame of another teams success.

Ha! You say you were "suckered" into playing ESO. Well, sir, then you're not a fanboy. You're just a sucker, who, despite not liking ESO or paying to play it, are on the ESO forum. That's cool, I guess.

Yup. I'm a sucker that is going to enjoy seeing this game crash and burn right out the gate.

one_eye

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

hamon

tanthil wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Slash8915 wrote: »

The main issue is, this is no longer "launch". This was a big patch that ZoS supposedly spent a lot of time on. After the trainwreck that was "official launch", you'd think they would have learned not to release things until they are fully tested.

This would probably be acceptable if ESO were a F2P or even B2P game. But it's not. We made the initial investment of purchasing the game, then we have to pay an additional charge on a monthly basis. We expect a AAA game to be run by a AAA team.

That's a valid point. But it's still been less than 2 months. I've heard stories about major World of Warcraft issues that were going on years after that game came out. I think we differ on our expectations, is all.

Keep in mind, WoW came out in what? 2004? This is 2014.

Yes when wow came out this sort of game was a fairly new market, there was no talent pool to pull devs from, they were learning as they created.

that isnt actually the case wow wasn't the first AAA mmo to arrive they learnt from SWG and EQ2 .
that being said you are correct that its now 2014 and they have had the luxury of a huge developmental budget and the opportunity to learn from and avert the mistakes of the predecessors.

here is where i,m dissapointed they seem to be making mistakes that i have seen from many other MMO's and seem slow to rectify it when they do make these mistakes.
i love this game and have tried to remain opptomistic but its getting harder as every move seems to be a backwards step in terms of my enjoyment of the game.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

one_eye wrote: »

Funny that someone is calling me a "fanboy." Umm, aren't we all fanboys? We pay a monthly fee and spend dozens/hundreds of hours playing a video game.

Nope not a fanboy of ZoS since I don't pay a monthly fee or plan on starting. I was suckered in because of the "Elder Scrolls" in the title like many people since I am a big fan of Bethesda's TES series which is made by a different team. This game is like Diablo 3, living of the fame of another teams success.

Ha! You say you were "suckered" into playing ESO. Well, sir, then you're not a fanboy. You're just a sucker, who, despite not liking ESO or paying to play it, are on the ESO forum. That's cool, I guess.

Yup. I'm a sucker that is going to enjoy seeing this game crash and burn right out the gate.

Why do you even enjoy that, I guess that means you don't like games in general. Even if you don't like THIS game, the industry in itself has been going downhill for awhile, and its mostly because of people with your attitude.

How many developers are going to jump on the wagon and create games if all you get in return is a big headache and no return on your investment. Yay, no more awesome games.

Bhakura

Therium104 wrote: »

Lol. The nerf to shield bash just alienated more people because it removed an entire playstyle from the game. It is embarrassing.

Whats embarrasing is that so many people jumped on the broken bash exploit like flies on a dunghill to pwn everything.
Things get fixed, and people are now clueless in endgame content that got beefed up with no clue how to win a fight without bash.
Embarrasing, yea, but use it right.

Evergnar

roflcopter wrote: »

I can remember old Nintendo / Atari / Sega games that are more refined than today's buggy console games. Every console game now needs patches / updates / bugs and fixes. Nothing in 2014 is ever a finished product where back in the 80s it was what it was, finished and polished.

Funny to think about things in the 80s being more polished and finished than they are now.

Miss those days. I keep blowing in this ESO cartridge but it just doesn't seem to be fixing it.