Was biting jabs nerfed?

moXrox

galiumb16_ESO wrote: »

moXrox wrote: »

You guys exaggerate.

I just started testing my templar and biting jabs.

The delay is almost not noticeable, very tiny changes.


So much whining about such a little change....wow.

Why is there a delay at all? Who cares if you find it noticeable or not, combat is all about responsiveness, waiting to use other abilities while my character just stands there... not responsive.

Why do you care if there is a delay which is not even a second.

I never had the need to spam anything in this game that such a short delay would be annoying, maybe change your gameplay style.

TRIP233

NordJitsu wrote: »

Yup. People noticed this in the PTS.

And they didn't put it in the patch notes.

Yay!

They did put it in the patch notes. They said ALL abilities have a delay. Ergo this game now has a cool down system before a skill can be used again.

Noobie

.6 sec is still a delay and has ruined the jabs for regular players. Any delay was a ninja nerf, and no reason it should have been messed with in the first place as it wasnt even considered overpowered in PvE or PvP.

moXrox

Noobie wrote: »

.6 sec is still a delay and has ruined the jabs for regular players. Any delay was a ninja nerf, and no reason it should have been messed with in the first place as it wasnt even considered overpowered in PvE or PvP.

What are regular players and how is it ruined ?


Standing in front of a mob and spamming only jabs, no block, no interrupt, no kiting and no dodge jump ? Dont you guys use any rotation with other abilities.

Noobie

regular players are non bots, which this nerf lookes as if it was meant to combat bots.

and not all templars play like you but i use jabs when im healing to keep mobs off me and also to fight in veteran zones because you know you cant take your time in VR zones killing them 1 at a time. I do use a rotation as well. I open up with explosive charge, solar barrage, jabs, solar barrage, soon as the mobs get about to 25% health i would just spam jabs seeing how my mana would be low from that rotation

Nickhead420

I can understand that they don't want people spamming it, but what should have happened was a GCD on the ability so that we can't use it again for a second or so. A total ability lock is just pointless. If it's going to stay this way, can we at least have the knockback affect all targets?

Azphira

Mephos

I guess those people who tell me this is a "tiny change" don´t know how you could use biting jabs to the full potential by canceling autohits into jabs into autohit into jab.. this actually created a very nice flow and decent dps.

actually it sucks that you can´t heal for 1 second after using biting jabs, thats my only complain.

and that it was not communicated anywhere -.-

galiumb16_ESO

moXrox wrote: »

Why do you care if there is a delay which is not even a second.

I never had the need to spam anything in this game that such a short delay would be annoying, maybe change your gameplay style.

Flow of combat, feeling of responsiveness, ability to adjust to what is happening in combat in a fraction of a second. Do I really need to keep listing the obvious reasons that all games try and have a responsive combat system? Maybe the issue is your gameplay style.

Why does it matter to you that I would like to hear from ZOS if the change was intended or not? If you do not care then stay out of the thread, leave it to those of us that would like to know if the change is intended or not, something that could have been resolved had they just put it in the patch notes.

dcincali

It has been tested, 5 jabs took 12 seconds.. 12/5 = 2.4 The channel is 1.1 so 1.3 seconds of lag time to just stand around and do nothing but block. Yea, thats kind of a ninja nerf.. Too bad most of these comments about "suck it up and l2p" are from non melee temps.

Gaudrath

galiumb16_ESO wrote: »

moXrox wrote: »

Why do you care if there is a delay which is not even a second.

I never had the need to spam anything in this game that such a short delay would be annoying, maybe change your gameplay style.

Flow of combat, feeling of responsiveness, ability to adjust to what is happening in combat in a fraction of a second. Do I really need to keep listing the obvious reasons that all games try and have a responsive combat system? Maybe the issue is your gameplay style.

Considering median human reaction time is around 0.2 seconds IF you are poised to react and up to 1.5-2 seconds if you need to process information and react accordingly, plus the network latency of, let's say 0.6 seconds... an ability delay of 0.4-0.6 seconds is really not something you can use as an argument when discussing combat responsiveness.

Basically you can't adjust to unfamiliar information and react in a fraction of a second. You're not a robot. So don't blow this out of proportion.

tinythinker

Spamming Jabs

Some people "spam" biting jabs a few times as an opener for groups of 3-4 mobs if playing solo or against even more if working on adds in a group dungeon. The former allows the player to weaken the pack enough to go into a rotation with their weapon and other skills, and the latter helps to squish little groups of adds that sometimes swarm to the group healer.

The interrupt and push-back of the final target for jabs suggests itself as a useful an opener against groups. If you toss it out jabs a few times against a group of three you can knock a couple of them back, giving a better chance to use other attacks on single targets. This is how many players apparently have used biting jabs until now. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this use. It doesn't automatically mean that those players have no skill or that they just mash a single button. Whether or not it is seen as a sophisticated enough strategy in the minds of other players is irrelevant. Those individuals can play however they like. Taking out a small group of mobs on a solo quest when you have to do so several times in a row doesn't need complexity in tactics.

Cool-down/Delay

There seems to be a difference in what people are experiencing with the cool-down. Some people report up to or over a second delay in being able to use any attack after jabs. Others have reported much less of delay, so much so in fact that a less effective form of spamming jabs is possible. There have also been lag and frame rate issues reported with the update. It is possible that there is something about some characters or the associated accounts or their connection to the server that is causing them a longer delay for this ability. If so, this could have a significant effect on their use of this ability. As the issue is very new, there is no way for individual players to fully assess the validity of such claims made by others because if there is a bug it may not be affecting everyone. If there is an unintended consequence to jabs from the recent patch the best thing those affected can do is to submit a detailed bug report that would help reveal a pattern of who is or isn't getting the longer delay. It could be anything from race to weapon equipped to who knows what.

In any case, try to relax this weekend if you can. If the game is frustrating you consider taking a break. For those in the US, have a great Memorial Day weekend.

galiumb16_ESO

Gaudrath wrote: »

Considering median human reaction time is around 0.2 seconds IF you are poised to react and up to 1.5-2 seconds if you need to process information and react accordingly, plus the network latency of, let's say 0.6 seconds... an ability delay of 0.4-0.6 seconds is really not something you can use as an argument when discussing combat responsiveness.

Basically you can't adjust to unfamiliar information and react in a fraction of a second. You're not a robot. So don't blow this out of proportion.

Combat is about flow, the reason its noticeable is because you are already moving to do the next action, responding to patterns on screen, it is why muscle memory is so important in game play. Perhaps you play with foot pedals and a keyboard designed to the shape of your forehead so you do not notice these things.

Either way, small deal, big deal, I would like to know if the change is intended or not and the only way to get that information, ask for it, thus this thread. If you have no interest in the answer you can go troll another thread.

Gaudrath

tinythinker wrote: »

Spamming Jabs

Some people "spam" biting jabs a few times as an opener for groups of 3-4 mobs if playing solo or against even more if working on adds in a group dungeon. The former allows the player to weaken the pack enough to go into a rotation with their weapon and other skills, and the latter helps to squish little groups of adds that sometimes swarm to the group healer.

The same effect can be accomplished with Pulsar for a quarter of magicka cost and a fraction of the time needed (and no, no need to spam it). Jabs are not an effective opener. Effective openers are long-cast nuke skills, high damage skills or vulnerability debuffs. Jabs is neither of the three.

The interrupt and push-back of the final target for jabs suggests itself as a useful an opener against groups.

The interrupt is single target only. It will be effective only if the target is in the process of casting or performing a heavy attack. At that, it is often better to block a heavy attack and exploit it instead of interrupting it.
The push is so negligible it can be disregarded in practice. Again, if you need a CC skill, use a CC skill. If you need to wipe out a whole group of weakened mobs with one strike, use Jabs.

Jabs can be used as an opener only against very weak mobs. For anything else it is best to use them as a finisher because they are an almost guaranteed crit against weakened enemies.

And yes, play as you like. I certainly won't complain if you use Jabs as an opener against me in PvP.

Many templars complain about magicka sustainability. This is why. They do not use skills in an effective manner. They open with finishers, they spam one skill over and over and dump magicka on the target. I have yet to see another player using light attacks as fillers for the animation gaps.

Yes, the animation gap that happens between most skills, or haven't you noticed that since day one, guys?

galiumb16_ESO

Trolls are good for free bumps, hug a troll today.

SoulScream

I just tried to PVP with biting jabs on my bar and players just move away faster than it hits. As a finishing move I have execute which is better for my combo. I need to replace biting jabs with something else.

dcincali

Gaudrath wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Spamming Jabs

Some people "spam" biting jabs a few times as an opener for groups of 3-4 mobs if playing solo or against even more if working on adds in a group dungeon. The former allows the player to weaken the pack enough to go into a rotation with their weapon and other skills, and the latter helps to squish little groups of adds that sometimes swarm to the group healer.

The same effect can be accomplished with Pulsar for a quarter of magicka cost and a fraction of the time needed (and no, no need to spam it). Jabs are not an effective opener. Effective openers are long-cast nuke skills, high damage skills or vulnerability debuffs. Jabs is neither of the three.

The interrupt and push-back of the final target for jabs suggests itself as a useful an opener against groups.

The interrupt is single target only. It will be effective only if the target is in the process of casting or performing a heavy attack. At that, it is often better to block a heavy attack and exploit it instead of interrupting it.
The push is so negligible it can be disregarded in practice. Again, if you need a CC skill, use a CC skill. If you need to wipe out a whole group of weakened mobs with one strike, use Jabs.

Jabs can be used as an opener only against very weak mobs. For anything else it is best to use them as a finisher because they are an almost guaranteed crit against weakened enemies.

And yes, play as you like. I certainly won't complain if you use Jabs as an opener against me in PvP.

Many templars complain about magicka sustainability. This is why. They do not use skills in an effective manner. They open with finishers, they spam one skill over and over and dump magicka on the target. I have yet to see another player using light attacks as fillers for the animation gaps.

Yes, the animation gap that happens between most skills, or haven't you noticed that since day one, guys?

So, it's a finisher but it's the first skill you can open in the spear line.. Uh huh.. Sure..

Noobie

SoulScream wrote: »

I just tried to PVP with biting jabs on my bar and players just move away faster than it hits. As a finishing move I have execute which is better for my combo. I need to replace biting jabs with something else.

I have not noticed a change in between the 4 hits, just after the final hit there is that pause which by the time the pause ends a mob can move back in place and basically void that knockback before i can react.

Silverblade

Was expecting to wake up this morning and at least see some sort of feedback or reply from an official but, silence as usual. Losing faith in this company rapidly.

galiumb16_ESO

Silverblade wrote: »

Was expecting to wake up this morning and at least see some sort of feedback or reply from an official but, silence as usual. Losing faith in this company rapidly.

In fairness they have folks stuck in an infinite loading screen and memory leaks... Hopefully @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom will get to us asap.

Mephos

i hope so too. I just want to know if intended or not.

Dagoth_Rac

I tried Biting Jabs late last night. I have never really been a Jabs spammer. My typical attack is Dark Flare + Reflective Light to soften things up from range, then Explosive Charge to get in close and do more damage to everybody, then Biting Jabs to hopefully finish everybody off. Maybe throw in a Crescent Sweep if my Ultimate is ready. I try to mix in a lot of abilities just because I find that fun. If others find using a much smaller array of abilities to be their style, that's fine. Whatever works for you and that you enjoy.

That being said, Biting Jabs is definitely changed. Nerfing a skill is one thing. It happens, we will adjust. But it is now very hard to tell when I can cast it again. That should never be the case for any ability. They should either make it castable (is that a word?) again when the final jab animation ends, or make the jab animation longer. As of now, it looks like it is over but you still can't cast it again. If the enemy is still alive, I have to keep a mental timer and try to estimate when the half-second or so has passed and I can cast again. Don't make me guess when I can cast again! It should be obvious when an attack finishes and I can move on to something else.

moXrox

Mephos wrote: »

I guess those people who tell me this is a "tiny change" don´t know how you could use biting jabs to the full potential by canceling autohits into jabs into autohit into jab.. this actually created a very nice flow and decent dps.

actually it sucks that you can´t heal for 1 second after using biting jabs, thats my only complain.

and that it was not communicated anywhere -.-

So you guys are feeling bad because allegedly you cant use and exploiting "animation canceling" anymore..... :P

It is actually not the delay of abilities you complain, it is an exploit of the animation system you cant do anymore....

Some played the game without excessive use of animation canceling, Iam sure you can do aswell.

AngryNord

Gaudrath wrote: »

The same effect can be accomplished with Pulsar for a quarter of magicka cost and a fraction of the time needed (and no, no need to spam it). Jabs are not an effective opener. Effective openers are long-cast nuke skills, high damage skills or vulnerability debuffs. Jabs is neither of the three.

Which is a weapon skill, not a class skill. Little point in comparing apples to oranges (far from all Templars would be using a destruction staff)

hamon

Zarkaz wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

ok so what exactly do you use in melee range to do damage then? dont just say stuff like that but omit to say what you use instead.

Staff stuff
Actualy its 1h+S with pierce armor, vamp bane, dark flare, absorb magick and Honor the dead ,Soul strike ultimate with longer morph +regular weapon attacks for solo single 1dot+ elites\bosses.
Destro staff wall of elements\impulse with volcanic rune for AoE madness.
Or Bow sometimes when i get bored. I have 229 skillpoints so i leveled 3 weapons 4th(restoration) on the way.

ok your 1h +s sounds like its terrible. a 1.5s cast single target, another single target dot , and some heals so in groups of 3 your pretty much destro staff impulse / rune spammage.. thats a new one.. the way to melee groups of 3 is to not really melee but stand in melee range and spam staff stuff thats nothing to do with templar skills.

theres not one bit of usable melee templar damage apart from jabs. might as well be another class if theres nothing your class gives you to melee damage stuff. i know the class isnt all about melee damage . but one usuable skill out of 3 trees isnt asking much . honestly some folk dont see a problem with everyone being forced into staffs..

Reinmard

So...is not a bug?
Great
Account-quit sub. Not a big deal
A lot of games coming up without having to rage at any mobs.

tinythinker

Reinmard wrote: »

So...is not a bug?

Technically this is still not known. There is a strong sentiment that it isn't, but there has been no confirmation either way.

PikkonMG

tinythinker wrote: »

Spamming Jabs

Cool-down/Delay

There seems to be a difference in what people are experiencing with the cool-down. Some people report up to or over a second delay in being able to use any attack after jabs. Others have reported much less of delay, so much so in fact that a less effective form of spamming jabs is possible. There have also been lag and frame rate issues reported with the update. It is possible that there is something about some characters or the associated accounts or their connection to the server that is causing them a longer delay for this ability. If so, this could have a significant effect on their use of this ability. As the issue is very new, there is no way for individual players to fully assess the validity of such claims made by others because if there is a bug it may not be affecting everyone. If there is an unintended consequence to jabs from the recent patch the best thing those affected can do is to submit a detailed bug report that would help reveal a pattern of who is or isn't getting the longer delay. It could be anything from race to weapon equipped to who knows what.

In any case, try to relax this weekend if you can. If the game is frustrating you consider taking a break. For those in the US, have a great Memorial Day weekend.

Mine is about 1.3 sec that im unable to do anything after the channel finishes. For me using Jabs basically equals a 1.3 sec self stun after the channel finishes.

moXrox

PikkonMG wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Spamming Jabs

Cool-down/Delay

There seems to be a difference in what people are experiencing with the cool-down. Some people report up to or over a second delay in being able to use any attack after jabs. Others have reported much less of delay, so much so in fact that a less effective form of spamming jabs is possible. There have also been lag and frame rate issues reported with the update. It is possible that there is something about some characters or the associated accounts or their connection to the server that is causing them a longer delay for this ability. If so, this could have a significant effect on their use of this ability. As the issue is very new, there is no way for individual players to fully assess the validity of such claims made by others because if there is a bug it may not be affecting everyone. If there is an unintended consequence to jabs from the recent patch the best thing those affected can do is to submit a detailed bug report that would help reveal a pattern of who is or isn't getting the longer delay. It could be anything from race to weapon equipped to who knows what.

In any case, try to relax this weekend if you can. If the game is frustrating you consider taking a break. For those in the US, have a great Memorial Day weekend.

Mine is about 1.3 sec that im unable to do anything after the channel finishes. For me using Jabs basically equals a 1.3 sec self stun after the channel finishes.

For me it is just normal.

You hit a button and watch the animation, after the animation ends you hit again the same button and the same animation starts again.

Not hammering or spamming the ability or exploiting animation canceling.

PikkonMG

moXrox wrote: »

For me it is just normal.

You hit a button and watch the animation, after the animation ends you hit again the same button and the same animation starts again.

Not hammering or spamming the ability or exploiting animation canceling.

Think your off a little as animation canceling still works, The issue is the Delay after the channel finishes.