Was biting jabs nerfed?

temjiu

Honestly, this doesn't impact me that much as I don't use builds that use this heavily. I actually stopped using it quite a long time ago, as I watched people spam this continually...non stop...rarely using other abilites, and I knew it was unbalanced and I figured they would adjust it...thus I decided to not get used to using a skill that wouldn't be here in its same form for long. glad i did that now!

But...this seems like a really odd approach to fixing the issue. why kill it with some odd delay, when a simply CD on the skill is all thats needed? don't delay a players ability to do anything....just put a 5 second CD on the darn thing. then people can use it to assist their AoE, and then move on to other skills. it's not the skill that's broke...it's the fact that you can spam it endlessly.

5 second CD (or whatever time frame works) = balance skill, and move on. I don't understand why they have to do such weird things. a delay in any skill use is dangerous, not balancing. its totally in the opposite direction of balance. instead of a useable skill, it's now a death sentence in VR content.

EDIT: on a slightly different note, It would be nice if they could finally balance this skill so it's not the go-to all the time, every time for tank builds or whatever builds. That way, they can get to the business of balancing other skills to bring them up to par. It's always tough to balance other skills when most your test data is skewed due to one skill being used 80% of the time.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

dermottib14_ESO

Thank you Jessica!!!!

Slash8915

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

Better than nothing. I'd prefer no nerf at all, but it's better than having a basically unusable character.

Just please make sure that this "slight" resource cost is truly slight, and not what you guys consider "slightly" buffing VR mobs.

GhostRunner521

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

Another two week or more fix like the rest of the issues rolled out yesterday?

Nox_Aeterna

Well , good to know the devs noticed how bad it is now.

I do hope the resource cost change wont break it , but we can try to go around it with mana cost reduction things.

logsplitter69b14_ESO

I had fun battles before this patch. I play a heavy templar/2h. I typically try to balance out mana/stamina specials, using stam specials last to give me roll/doge reserve for miscalculations. 1 mob camps no problem.

2 mob camps, lead with vol rune, critical rush the squishy mage/archer in the group, biting jabs/brawler for the bleed and damage shield (they are getting up from vol rune st this point), finish off with jabs or reverse slice.

3 mob camp is last when I have charged Solar prison then the same plan as I use in 2 mob camp s only drop solar prison after dropping vol rune then rush the mage/archer.

It isn't the fastest way to get the job done but they were fun strategies to plan and battles flowed and felt natural. Occasionally I would have to adjust or chug a pot if I messed up. I could also swap out silver bolts for brawler if I ran into werewolf, daedric or undead mobs.

PvP swap out brawler/bolts for unstoppable and flank the zerg looking for more squishy mages.

If I ran into a group in dungeons or PvP that was light on healing I could flip over to resto staff and have a nice suite of group healing/buffing abilities at my disposal

I had alot of fun playing this temp. It didn't solely rely on jabs, but jabs was a nice mana dump AOE opener for combat leaving my stam pool intact to do with whatever I pleased after mana was depleted.

Worse than getting used to the delay; even though your unable to do anything immediately after jabs, your next action appears to be queued. So if in that second delay you queued an ability, then see something else you should have done or the situation changes, you still have to wait for your queued action to play out, so possibly losing even more time and mana/stam on a wasted ability.

For example I use biting jabs on a mob. Then wanted to thump it with reverse slash so I mash the macro during the jabs animation. But then I realize the jab knockback will push it out of reverse slash range so I try to move forward. But reverse slash was queued so it went off and missed before I could move forward. Another PvP situation where I am firing off slash during jabs. But the opponent is defeated during the jabs animation and slash fires off anyway even though I am already trying to move to another battle. That is frustrating. for that reason alone, jabs will probably come off the temp.

So it is different now. 2300 armor feels like I am coated in a thick layer of butter. 2 mob camps leave me half way through battle with no mana/stam pool and the pot timer ticking. Still have to adjust riding over a hill into a 2 tiger spawn that will take over half my health before I recover from getting knocked off my horse. I'll figure it out though.

I have to say this is a new experience for me. This will be the first time playing any MMO that I have ever felt I had a better chance of surviving PvP over PvM.

Mortosk

Forztr wrote: »

Using Puncturing Sweep I've noticed that the next one doesn't fire until the animation of the previous one as finished.
I did a quick test chaining 5 together by pressing key before animation finished to queue up the next one and it took 12.1 to all five. That's 2.4secs per cast not 1.1sex as in the tooltip.

What I think they've done is made so abilities cannot be recast until the animation is finished. Which is fine if the animation is the only as long as the cast time. They should shorten the animation to 1.1secs or increase the damage to reflect the longer cast time.

(Sidenote: The same thing happens for me with shield bash before I could clip the animation to spam it but now i need to wait until the animation as played out before using it again)

This jives with my calculations as well. I calculated 1.37 seconds delay after the the 1.1 second channel. So you are within a 10th of a second. 2 others have posted similar calculations so it is safe to say the added delay and spell lock period is between 1.3 and 1.4 seconds additional since this horrible patch went live.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

I think resource management/cost is really the way that any "we want you to spam this less" change should be rolled out. More of an intelligent decision by the player, instead of a forced "don't spam this". IE: Combined as part of a rotation vs just spamming it over and over.

Sleestak

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

I dont know who is in charge of testing changes and approving said changes but they need to be fired. You probably cost yourself a 10000 subs because of stupidity. You dont "balance" an ability because of bots.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

Sleestak wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

I dont know who is in charge of testing changes and approving said changes but they need to be fired. You probably cost yourself a 10000 subs because of stupidity. You dont "balance" an ability because of bots.

Oh were you privy to the meeting they had about this ability? Care to share the meeting minutes on this one?

moXrox

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

How do you want to balance your game if for every change you do, a similar "feedback" will arise on the forums.

People are giving you "feedback" not only for Biting Jabs, but also for Bash, for Destro AoE Pulsar and whatever.....



Thank you anyway for your response

skarvika

Sleestak wrote: »

TEMPLAR = HEALAR
get used to it...

Heh, I guess those other 2 racial skill lines must just be another bug...
Give me a break man, templar = paladin. Hybrid class, can do a little bit of everything. This is pretty common knowledge.

galiumb16_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

If you are going to add even more resource costs to the Templar can you do what you promised before launch and look into why we have no active magicka regen tool after you nuked restorative spirit? You said you were looking into it and we haven't heard a thing since.

Mortosk

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

Thank you for your response. While I disagree with the need to increase the resource Cost in the future considering it is already high and that is what kept it balanced to begin with, I take issue with the fact that you have basically broken my class for an indeterminate amount of time. Do I get a credit on my sub until this is reverted, because my character is unplayable now barring a reset and drastic changes to my skill trees, gear and playstyle. That is more than just a small inconvenience to the thousands of paying customers who play a DPS Templar, and I would venture to say the vast majority relied on this skill quite heavily as I did.

Recklessone

• You more than double the cooldown on our only decent aoe ability.
• Leave it out of the patch notes.
• Don't give us an eta on the fix.
• And hide your apology in the 9th page of a forum post...

Please add it to the official patch notes post, with the response you posted here. Every Templar playing the game is thinking about uninstalling because of this.

theyancey

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

stevenpotter321b14_ESO wrote: »

Get it added? As in, added as something to fix, or adding a note to patch notes mentioning a delay being added?

We're tracking down what was changed. Once we have all the details, we will amend the patch notes.

Please revert it instead of just noting in the patch notes what we already know. See all that pretty new red around Tamriel? It isn't a new breed of flower or butterfly. It is templar blood.

skarvika

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

Thanks for updating us on this. Glad to know it's going to be taken care of.

Silverblade

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

Thank you for the response. By "as soon as possible" I am really hoping for a hotfix today that corrects this and other numerous issues (some game breaking) introduced in yesterdays patch. To leave the game in this state over the 3 day weekend would be unfortunate.

KrwawaRyba

Sleestak wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

I dont know who is in charge of testing changes and approving said changes but they need to be fired. You probably cost yourself a 10000 subs because of stupidity. You dont "balance" an ability because of bots.

+1

Increasing cost of basic skill puts the templars only to light armor builds, hv is not viable even with pure magicica restore increse with channeled focus (from 10 to 20 mana per second (in 1.1.2)).

temps dps skills:
BJ 42mana CHANELED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! time cost 1.1s+0.5s+ lag = 2s
Sun fire 35mana instant time cost ~ 1s
Solar Flare 42mana instant time cost ~ 1s

Sorc dps skills:
Deadric Curse 39mana INSTANT time cost ~ 1s
Crystal Shards 53 (instant 26!!!) INSTANT time cost ~ 1s
Mages Fury 32mana!!! (non stop spam skill) INSTANT!!! time cost ~ 1s


Damn that dev's are so bad....

Azphira

This reminds of one of those intentional government/corporate/school *** moves to test if there will be no backlash so they can do more of the same.

Sakiri

Nickhead420 wrote: »

I can understand that they don't want people spamming it, but what should have happened was a GCD on the ability so that we can't use it again for a second or so. A total ability lock is just pointless. If it's going to stay this way, can we at least have the knockback affect all targets?

Youre using gcd wrong.

Global cooldown affects all abilities at once. Not specific ones.

The two big games I play work two different ways. EQ2 uses a recovery timer. Each spell has a different recovery and theyre independent of each other. It can be reduced by AA or gear. While one spell is recovering you can use a different one. Most abilities and combat arts have cast times.

WoW has a global cooldown. Its 1s for melee and 1.5 for casters. "Melee" vs "caster" is class and spec dependent. Global starts when the spell starts casting, not finish, and cannot be reduced to shorter than 1 second. Reduced by haste. You aim for your cast time spells and gcd to be 1s specifically so you can spam.

Slash8915

Azphira wrote: »

This reminds of one of those intentional government/corporate/school *** moves to test if there will be no backlash so they can do more of the same.

I sort of agree. I don't see how a nerf this big could have simply been "Accidentally left out of the patch notes". It sounds like they did it and PURPOSELY left it out of the notes to gauge our reaction.

tanthil

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, wanted to post a small update on this. We started looking into this yesterday as soon as we saw reports. We're working on gathering the details--if this slipped through the patch notes, we'll get it added.

This post makes no sense

Either you are investigating it to see if you broke it?
Or you are going to see if it slipped through the patch notes, in which case it was intentional.
You sort of say both things at once, please dont tell me you have to investigate if it was intentional???

Nox_Aeterna

Slash8915 wrote: »

Azphira wrote: »

This reminds of one of those intentional government/corporate/school *** moves to test if there will be no backlash so they can do more of the same.

I sort of agree. I don't see how a nerf this big could have simply been "Accidentally left out of the patch notes". It sounds like the did it and PURPOSELY left it out of the notes to gauge our reaction.

They "accidentally" broke pretty much the entire VR solo quest content , so yeah , i would not be surprised if they also did this by "accident".

The make mistakes is human , so it is ok , but they do make some big ones.

tanthil

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

stevenpotter321b14_ESO wrote: »

Get it added? As in, added as something to fix, or adding a note to patch notes mentioning a delay being added?

We're tracking down what was changed. Once we have all the details, we will amend the patch notes.

And again this makes no sense, you are investigating what happened to add it to the patch notes?????

Im sorry but this is how patch notes work.. you make changes.. you put them in the patch notes and release these changes with the patch.

not..

Something seems to have changed that we dont know about, once we figure exactly what we have changed by accident we will amend the patch notes to make it look like it was intentional???

Reykice

KrwawaRyba wrote: »

Sleestak wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

I dont know who is in charge of testing changes and approving said changes but they need to be fired. You probably cost yourself a 10000 subs because of stupidity. You dont "balance" an ability because of bots.

+1

Increasing cost of basic skill puts the templars only to light armor builds, hv is not viable even with pure magicica restore increse with channeled focus (from 10 to 20 mana per second (in 1.1.2)).

temps dps skills:
BJ 42mana CHANELED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! time cost 1.1s+0.5s+ lag = 2s
Sun fire 35mana instant time cost ~ 1s
Solar Flare 42mana instant time cost ~ 1s

Sorc dps skills:
Deadric Curse 39mana INSTANT time cost ~ 1s
Crystal Shards 53 (instant 26!!!) INSTANT time cost ~ 1s
Mages Fury 32mana!!! (non stop spam skill) INSTANT!!! time cost ~ 1s


Damn that dev's are so bad....

You are bad.... Dardric Curse does damage 6 seconds after(3.5 if morphed specifically) the cast... and only one can be used at a time, not matter how many Sorcerers are on.

Mages Fury is an EXECUTE skill, it does pathetic damage unless the target is under 20% HP....

Crystal Shards is our only good spell BUT it costs more magicka than anything the templar has with a 1.3s cast time. To have a 35% chance to make it instant we need to use the 2 spells above... so its not a really good deal.
Also, Crystal Shards is a Single Target spell... comparing it to an AOE spell is bad.

skarvika

KrwawaRyba wrote: »

Sleestak wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.

In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.

This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.

I dont know who is in charge of testing changes and approving said changes but they need to be fired. You probably cost yourself a 10000 subs because of stupidity. You dont "balance" an ability because of bots.

+1

Increasing cost of basic skill puts the templars only to light armor builds, hv is not viable even with pure magicica restore increse with channeled focus (from 10 to 20 mana per second (in 1.1.2)).

temps dps skills:
BJ 42mana CHANELED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! time cost 1.1s+0.5s+ lag = 2s
Sun fire 35mana instant time cost ~ 1s
Solar Flare 42mana instant time cost ~ 1s

Sorc dps skills:
Deadric Curse 39mana INSTANT time cost ~ 1s
Crystal Shards 53 (instant 26!!!) INSTANT time cost ~ 1s
Mages Fury 32mana!!! (non stop spam skill) INSTANT!!! time cost ~ 1s


Damn that dev's are so bad....

The players keep getting punished for things bots do. Hireling alts, boss farming, ore farming, motif drops, numerous skill "fixes"...
It seems like not much is being done to keep the bots from getting in the game in the first place. Their casting time doesn't matter to me; the fact that they're in game at all does.

Slash8915

@‌ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Will you atleast (honestly) tell us if this intended nerf was to combat bots? Because I haven't heard anyone complain that this skill was OP in the first place.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

The amount of fail of this thread once the devs post clear confirmations is amazing.

Just in case you missed it, and probably the thread should not be closed. Biting Jabs was changed, the patch notes did not reflect the change. They are aware now that they change may have been to harsh of an impact on the "responsiveness" of characters.

They still feel the cost/utilization of Biting Jabs is too powerful on single targets, thus they will look at resource costs to deal with the situation instead of the hidden timer.

Cheers.